Question for ZOS about player separation in the Champion System.

Merlin13KAGL

Craven_Killmore wrote: »

The people who put in the time get to be stronger, kinda like in every game ever made.

@Craven_Killmore , it's not about players getting stronger.

They should be stronger. It's about the rate at which they're getting there and the (un)realistic differential it creates.

We're not comparing players that will have been at this 5 years, we're comparing players that will have been at this 5 weeks or 5 months.

Progression is great. Things that drastically segregate the player base is not.

pppontus

Morshire wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

In my opinion, this is an idiotic way of designing a game.. but we can disagree on that. The difference you don't seem to see is this is not like VR (which takes a few hours to catch up), this is MONTHS to catch up. That's the problem, the amount of commitment. It's a *** game.. but OK, if people want an unpaid job.. enjoy. I will not pay money for an unpaid job.

Design indeed. But then you have to take into account the premise on which the design is based to really get what the goal was anyway.

When you have the very creative director of the game saying things like "the reality is that most players don’t really care too much" when it comes to their stats, or that 99% of the players in the game, actually make it that in fact he knows 80% of the players are not as skilled as the "the 1%, the elite of the game" who were at the guild summit for example, it gets pretty clear, pretty fast that what the real view of the community playing actually is and that the driving force behind the design of the game was built around the premise that most players are all basically just sheep and don't really care about competitive builds anyway. Given some of the responses to this issue, I'd say now he is likely right. So ZoS gave them a little treadmill to run on so they think they are getting better and they will be happy.

Some things just never change....

Yep. I'm also surprised how many people are actually jumping on this treadmill. I mean I'll just play around with the justice system for now, if they change this I'll stay and otherwise I'll simply find something else to play.. it isn't that big of a deal. I'm sure as hell not going to give up my life for a game.

But apparently, half my guilds are currently out grinding, so it's clearly working for some. I wonder how long it will take until people start quitting because all they do is grind.

Yeah, I'm not grinding. I'm playing a VR2 through gold and silver. My VR 14 gets the CPs too, and I take him out for dailies , riding upgrade, writs and a little dwemer motif farming... or if someone needs help with something. he doesn't have anything much to do until new content is out anyway

Never been a fan of grinding.

And here I agree 100% - as I already stated. The system itself and the CP/XP conversion method sucks monkey ballllzzz. No argument there. What I don't agree with is the method proposed for fixing it. As this person said:

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

So now, playing casually, it would be fine. Then what about on my day off, I have 12+ hours I can waste. This time I could be catching up. But wait, now my CP gain is hindered. WTF? That is what I am saying. ZOS should not have made the system the way it is...agreed. A soft cap would have fixed this quickly. Each DLC opens X more CP to gain. The reason grinding is so appealing is it is, under the current system, the fastest way to get there. This is due in large part to 3600 CP being available. 1CP a day, as a casual player, means almost 10 years before I hit cap. WTF? If I have a good day, 2 CP a day. Now maybe I get there in 5-7 years? Still WTF? But I am not faulting the guy grinding, with the extra time to do so, because he/she is getting it done faster. And that was my point.

You all have clearly identified the problem. And I 100% agree. It is the solutions that have been presented that I dislike. XP/CP gain needs to balance out. There should be a soft cap to allow everyone to enjoy content, without feeling the min/maxers have for maxing out. The gap stays small. Everyone can remain competitive. Simple. But if the ceiling is X, I shouldn't tie a weight to others angles cause they can get there faster. The focus of the game is maxing out the CP. Nothing else. Grinding accomplishes this the fastest. ZOS needs to address this. Not how fast someone else gets there, but instead the means and reasons for trying.

I agree with you on that.

They made an endless treadmill and half the game population has already jumped in to an instance and started grinding their eyes out. And the best part is ZOS didn't think this would happen.. seriously. ^^

Merlin13KAGL

There should be multiple ways to earn CP's (not talking multiple ways to earn XP's to earn CP's)

There should be a cap on those earned daily through XP, same for achievements, same for DLC options.

It still gives multiple opportunities to advance, but without making the gap as extreme.

Then again, they didn't anticipate anyone being VR12 three days after pre-launch, either.

Soulshine

Snit wrote: »

If your expectation is to be among the top-end of the player base, that is no longer compatible with any playstyle short of "obsessive."

Actually, the reality is someplace in between.

You have to put this whole system in perspective of the desinger's expectations, not that of the players.

ZoS has been very clear about what they want us to believe are the reasons for delay in zone content, but do not think for a minute that the resoundingly poor choices they made in story development for end game, let alone their "VR solution" to it, do not remain at the very core of the problem we are now still facing which is at the root of the Champion System concept to begin with.

Some of us have been discussing this since beta, and the issue still remains: there is a fundamental lack of vision for this game beyond marking it as yet another vehicle for gaining market shares.

Implementing various forms of time sinks, however ingenious and math laeden, are never a good substitute to a solid story line that grows accross the game's life and continues across content zones which grow the game in scope and depth. It actually seems almost incomprehensible this happened, when you consider the huge amount of lore behind the TES series in the first place. With an IP this vast, it is an astonishing underachievement to say the least about it.

So now we have in the end another treadmill implemented to keep us busy until such time as someone decides it is the right moment in the projected revenue timeframe to release the next installment of... well, whatever it is they want to give us.

I have no doubt the "obsessing" over CPs will indeed die down once people actually have something to do at end game besides repeatables and look at the fancy graphical interface of the constellations.

joshisanonymous

I think the big question is, what is the CP cap? Ok, so they gave everyone 3600 CP on the PTS, but they also said that this was in no way balanced. It implies to me that 3600 is possibly significantly higher than the amount of CP you can actually get. Having a reasonable cap, even if it would still take a hardcore player maybe a year to reach it (think AP cap), would go a long way towards avoiding a huge power gap between more casual players and those hardcore players. There will always be a cap, there basically has to be given that this is still an RPG at its core, but a reasonable cap means that it's not insurmountable.

The other big issue is that they made CPs account wide. This means that no matter how many characters a long time hardcore player has made, every single one of those characters will be perpetually way ahead of more casual players, even if those casual players focus on one character! (This is assuming the CP cap really is 3600.) If CPs were not account wide, then long time players who decide they want to try something different would effectively be slowing down their progress on any particular character enough that a casual player who focuses on one toon might be able to catch up. I honestly have no idea why they ever decided to make CPs account wide. I've been told it promotes making alts, which is good for keeping PvE content active at all levels, but the trade-off is huge and I have a hard time believing that anyone who would not normally make an alt would suddenly do so just because of the CP system, not to mention they would be able to skip a large amount of PvE if they've already gained plenty of CPs anyway, weakening the effect making alts has on PvE content.

MissBizz

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

I enjoy the train this suggestion is on. I consider myself in group B. I'll get CP, I play enough not to be REALLY behind, but will never come even close to the top.

I think just changing the amount of XP needed to get a CP every day would be enough. No need to make the mobs give less XP. I don't think XP from mobs should be nerfed.. PvP XP should be increased. With a casualish player, the mob kills during our quests deal a great portion on XP. Sure, quests can reward a decent chunk of XP, but the casualish player who is enjoying the scenery definitely isn't turning in 10 quests an hour.

[EDIT] @Morshire has a really good point though. I think a good reason I am in group B and not A is because on the weekends I spend a LOT more time playing and can expect to make up for my small cp gains during the week. Erg. Maybe this is what enlightment was supposed to make? Make it super hard to gain CP without it, but "regular" or "easy" with it in. Alright, so maybe make the cost of a CP 800k. (random thoughts).. and enlightment would last until you gain 1 CP. In theory (now I'm sure there's problem with this idea), with enlightment on you technically only need to get 100k (yup, I went there, change the xp multiplier enlightment gives you) and then once it runs out you need to earn 800k (or whatever number makes sense).

Whatever the numbers.. make it easy enough to gain ~1CP per day with your "average" player, and ridicously hard once you don't have it on.

This way... for people who don't play often and they have a bunch of enlightment stashed.. can play their 12hr day on a Saturday and still catch up in CP (since they will probably be able to get many more CP on their enlightment vs the other above idea)

DeLindsay

I actually made a THREAD last night about this very issue and detailed the XP disparity between various playstyles in ESO. Yes Grinding is king (I'm actually ok with that) but what me and many others are irritated with more is that all other forms of playstyels in ESO are from slightly inferior to so vastly inferior that you might as well give up trying.

I also gave ZoS detailed suggestions about how to bring up other playstyles to be further inline with Grinding in my post as well as feedback that I gave as one of the 1.6 PTS testers. Hopefully with this thread, the half dozen about PvP lack of XP that get started every day, and the rest maybe ZoS will actually address it this time. To be fair I DON'T want ZoS to further nerf Grinding, but instead bring up the XP gain of other activities.

Soulshine

joshisanonymous wrote: »

I think the big question is, what is the CP cap? Ok, so they gave everyone 3600 CP on the PTS, but they also said that this was in no way balanced. It implies to me that 3600 is possibly significantly higher than the amount of CP you can actually get. Having a reasonable cap, even if it would still take a hardcore player maybe a year to reach it (think AP cap), would go a long way towards avoiding a huge power gap between more casual players and those hardcore players. There will always be a cap, there basically has to be given that this is still an RPG at its core, but a reasonable cap means that it's not insurmountable.

The other big issue is that they made CPs account wide. This means that no matter how many characters a long time hardcore player has made, every single one of those characters will be perpetually way ahead of more casual players, even if those casual players focus on one character! (This is assuming the CP cap really is 3600.) If CPs were not account wide, then long time players who decide they want to try something different would effectively be slowing down their progress on any particular character enough that a casual player who focuses on one toon might be able to catch up. I honestly have no idea why they ever decided to make CPs account wide. I've been told it promotes making alts, which is good for keeping PvE content active at all levels, but the trade-off is huge and I have a hard time believing that anyone who would not normally make an alt would suddenly do so just because of the CP system, not to mention they would be able to skip a large amount of PvE if they've already gained plenty of CPs anyway, weakening the effect making alts has on PvE content.

A reasonable expectation would be initially set to 90, then 360, progressing up to 1080 most likely, based on the diminishing returns in the system and the fact that what most people will be after is a set of at least three main consteallations with a 120 point investment to earn the top tier passive bonus of that constellation. 1080 CPs would be 120 points earned in all 9 constellations. Anything above 120 per constellation is just gravy.

Testing out these various levels of CPs on the PTS when they gave us the full 3600 possible made it very plain to see that the entire game will need rebalancing over time as people climb higher up the ladder, because if you had even 360 now the PvE game would be snoozefest easy, and PvP with anyone other than people on absolute equalpoint values would be pretty pointless (no pun intended...)

As far as account wide CPs, I posted many comments about how I think this is a bad idea, but nope I was LOL'd into oblivion for saying so, hehe. Truth is most people just want to follow the road of least resistance, so having completed the journey once, they do not want to do it again - they just want the rewards from it. Accountwide CPs keeps those people happy.

ginoboehm

Snit wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

...no matter how skilled he is anyone investing more time then him and are able to and willing to grind more cp a day

That's a core design principle in MMO's. Time = advancement. That's how they keep you logging in for a year. The difference is there, here, we can suddenly reach level one-thousand-something.

The gap will be ridiculously big. But that's the flipside of a system where even maxxed characters will always have something they can do to advance in power every single day, even solo. They've designed a system where you're never done. That has large positive and negative effects.

The class stuff was a reference to a longish discussion we had in PTS. I shouldn't have brought it up again - this topic stands on its own, and it's important.

Tell me a positive aspect for endgame content?

Morshire

So now I agree, mostly with both lines here. CP gain, how to keep it fair, and about account wide. Personally, grinding is gonna be the way to go. But that is primarily because of how big the gap is 0-3600CP, and the time it takes. If we were only allowed access to say 360 CP, until the next DLC, sure some people would grind it out (that fact will never change, and more power to them) but everyone else wouldn't panic. 360 is doable. And without grinding out some math, it shouldn't make a huge gap between players. 6-7 months, enough people would catch up before new DLC. Then we would rinse and repeat. (Just throwing numbers, it could be smaller or bigger) Personally, my only problem with "grinders" or people who have 20+ hours a day to play is jealousy. Wish I could. I don't care if they fly to the end in a day and run around with flashing neon banners announcing their awesomeness. All good. BUT when you introduce a system, that is so insurmountable, and CP gain is so slow, that grinders grind, and casual people give up, then you have a flawed and broken system.

As to account wide - well this is more of an issue for the replay ability of the game. Non existent in my books. Hence the need to give those points. Compounded with the above issue, it makes the system more flawed. With soft caps in place (I still argue against the daily ones, but the idea is sound) and more playable content, this whole thing goes away.

I checked what 3600CP gives on PTS. It does make a difference. (Not doing numbers and diminishing returns, but you know if you have had them) And with content the way it is, it just ruins it. But, with new zones, mobs scaled to VR14, yet slightly stronger, PVE would be balanced because people with more CP and who have finished gold and silver, they would be questing through the new areas. Simple. And PVP wouldn't be a "snoozefest" because each DLC would come with X amount of CP (enough to make it worth going through, but not enough to make a huge disparity.)

If ZOS does not address this some how, I have to agree, they will lose more players and have a harder time getting new ones. I mean seriously, would you buy a game that if you simply played through, it would only take you 7-11 years to finish? But wait, then you could make an alt and we would bury you before you completed that? Not me. As it stands, I plan to grind some, till I feel comfy, and then...........well probably quit. I am not excited about what lays ahead. I expect to die 100/1 in PVP. I expect better players on the leader boards. I expect I will always be behind. I don't expect 10 years to get 3600 CP, or waiting 7 months for new content.

f047ys3v3n

I'll give you a window into the world of the hardcore endgame PVE community. It is worth examining as the CP system will greatly effect it just as I suspect it will have a great effect on the hardcore PVP community who I don't really know. I am part of the endgame PVE community. At the end of 1.5 I had the #1 NA AA time, #1 NA He-ra time, and #5 NA SO time. In the time of badasses, I was a badass. In the time of grinding I will probably not be relevant. Yes, I am a little sore so read into all this what you will.

The first thing to know about the endgame PVE community is that it is much smaller and closer nit than you probably think. You are talking about 50 or so total people in AD and less in each of the other alliances. These people are not all in the same guild but rather are cross-linked through a combination of friends lists, guilds, and about 5 hub people who are pretty crucial to the existence of an endgame community a few of which we are at great risk of loosing. Most of the people in this small group have multiple toons so the appearance from the outside of the leaderboards having lots of different at the top can be deceiving. Virtually all of the top leaderboard times start when one of those 5 hub people decides to set it and recruits others for the challenge. For AA and Hel-ra that person was Myr and for SO it was Ham. These runs are invite only. The leader pics a few folks, they come on ts, and hashing out of the rest of the group from guild and friends lists is commenced. Due to differences in group composition from run to run and day to day various leaderboard spots from 2->10 might end up less successful versions of the same run with slightly different personnel. I think we set 3 or so doing Hel-ra.

Now, you might think this is all just insider elitist baseball and it is, with those runs. Those runs are a very small portion of the time spent doing trials by endgame players though. A larger portion of the time is spent in training, and weekly runs. Everybody wants their golden item, and weekly coffer on all their toons, and guilds always need new blood to replace members who were lost for whatever reason. These runs are less serious and typically include people off of the guild list of those central guilds (Lostrelic, Eight Divines, Deviance, Purple, WKB.) These runs are how I got started, and how almost everyone else got started. We all had to be trained in the fights and schooled in the theory. Nobody starts out a badass. The effect of these runs is far reaching as person A gets trained on a run with mostly top 50 players and goes back to their guild and starts a training run of their own to get a guild completion. This trains a bunch more players a few of which might eventually migrate to the top 50 bringing their own list of friends who they have confidence in with them. More new blood, more recommendations, more connections. Those top few leaderboard times at the end of 1.5 had almost all second and third generation players in them. That is, the people who first wrote the basic strategy trained a second generation who trained a third. The cumulative effect of all this is that the small engame hardcore PVE community accounts for almost all the completions of any trials. It did so back when I though heavy armor and a bow as good stuff and with any luck it will long after.

I should also mention at this point that it is also this community that develops the builds, gear combinations, and strategies for these raids. I am not a theory crafter myself and owe much to people like Leonard, Chopstix, Mr T, Brick, Vaun, Hyper, and Stevo for teaching me what builds and rotations are best. Just as the strategies trickle down so do the builds and few who have ever done anything serious have not been impacted by the work of these great minds who tirelessly play on the PTS tying to squeeze out that last 50DPS.

I hope this illustrates the reasons that most players should care about these few elitists. I benefited from their work long before I was one of them or even knew who they were and hopefully long after as I have a full time employ in summers and can't raid the same way I do in winters regardless of game designers choices. You probably benefited as well. PVE is, after all, about completing content and getting loot. Our successes fundamentally benefit each other as the knowledge base grows.

Now, what CP is doing to this community. I have mentioned that this group of people is small and play time varies hugely between players from about 3 hours a day to more like 12 hours. With a V14 cap this was not relevant as our power levels did not change. Those who played more were better at not missing dailies, might have their monster heads right traited, and always had more V14 toons to collect coffers on and make weekly leader-boards with but that was about the sum of the difference, a little bit of loot that realistically isn't that powerful in this game vs crafted items anyway. Now... Well, one buddy I run with dinged 120 CP on his account yesterday and I am near the rear with 75.

How, well there are some pretty efficient ways to get XP and if your dedicated, enlightenment is just happy hour or less in a day of grinding. This is the mindset and mode of operation of a successful endgame raider. You can't get emotional about what works and what doesn't, how you want to play, or what you want to do to progress your character. You switch builds when the balance is changed, you roll alternate toons to take care of class balance, and now you find and utilize the most efficient methods for getting champion points. The bottom line is there will be some very massively powerful players in this game not in 6 months but in a month.

Me and my friends have a decision to make as regards our collective and individual futures in the game. We are rapidly diverging in power level and some of us will soon be a hindrance to others when it comes to success in trials regardless of skill level. That group of 50 or so is very small and sub dividing it further, the inevitable consequence of CP, will make it smaller. There is a point at which the dynamics of an increasingly small group will make it difficult to have the same effect for the community as a whole or even hold together itself. I'm pretty torn up about it and my friends are as well. A wedge is being driven between us and our lifestyles are such that I don't think any compromise will be possible. I can't help but feel we have been yoko'd.

I am saddened. I think I can see where this is going. The endgame AD community could easily loose cohesion being fractured into so many pieces. CP is just so very powerful. You can say that "well you had to be a V14 to even get an invite before" but what was that? That was a very low hurdle that could be accomplished in a few weeks and once cleared was in the rear view mirror. My NB (my second toon which was ground up for time efficiency) had only 5 1/2 days in game played time when it dinged V14. This is an ever higher mountain to climb and I don't think ESO has yet the population to handle that added stratification.

Rune_Relic

The problem I have is the scale of the difference.
Take XP vs Time.

If it was 1 CP / hour ...2/day would be normal... 4/day for devoted....8/day for someone who doesnt work....12/day for an obsessive with nothing else to do.
Yet we have people grinding out 20CP/day using XP.

This is nothing about people putting hours into the game.
This is purely a grinding biased system that should never under any circumstances exceed 12/day.

Yet here we are ?!?
Grind or go home has become the mthodology rather than time devoted to the game.
It has to be capped or throttled or the XP link removed and Time link attached.

Even then I will goto 1-50 PVP with ALT on 100s of CP and absolutely kick the butt of any 0cp newbies.
Level scaling is a necessity....yet CP scaling is not ?

Snit

Marvel Heroes has a nearly identical system (Omega Points). Gazillion did a good job thinking it through. Points are capped, and the cap increases over time. It still takes obsessive play to hit the current cap, but the power differential remains somewhat controlled.

Gazillion is an excellent dev team. More games should steal their ideas.

pppontus

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

k2blader

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

PvP isn't just about getting Emperor. There are many folks who just find it fun and don't ever plan to become Emp. How do you imagine PvP will be for casual players vs. CP grinders with hundreds more CPs than them?

Morshire

k2blader wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

PvP isn't just about getting Emperor. There are many folks who just find it fun and don't ever plan to become Emp. How do you imagine PvP will be for casual players vs. CP grinders with hundreds more CPs than them?

That is easy, a slaughter fest. I mean, we have that now. We just have it in a manageable gap that can be overcome in a month of dedicated game play (for a casual player I mean)....CP is going to make that insurmountable for a large portion of people. Then PVP will go downhill. People with 1000+ CP will be roaming around hoping someone is foolish enough to jump in. After days of finding only crickets, they will get bored and look for other campaigns. Soon they will all be like this. And then the Dadrea take over, the world goes to the dead, and we are all hunting for another game. (Bit extreme, but I bet it will be close to truth)

Jujujitsu

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Nestor

Snit wrote: »

That's a core design principle in MMO's. Time = advancement. That's how they keep you logging in for a year. The difference is there, here, we can suddenly reach level one-thousand-something.

Sure, that makes sense when there is a subscription in place for each month. But, we don't have that.

pppontus

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Can't share it because I purposefully won't ask for it, I know for sure it happens tho since friends are doing it. I hate the playstyle myself, so I'm just not going to.

That is with enlightment of course. Both for me and them.

Jujujitsu

pppontus wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Can't share it because I purposefully won't ask for it, I know for sure it happens tho since friends are doing it. I hate the playstyle myself, so I'm just not going to.

That is with enlightment of course. Both for me and them.

Uh, whatever dude. Try to stick to facts that you can prove. I for one do not believe that this Shangri La spot exists. If you throw around fantastical numbers like that it makes it appear that "anyone" can get a CP level in under 15mins. If it was that easy there would be no need for your thread.

Snit

pppontus wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Can't share it because I purposefully won't ask for it, I know for sure it happens tho since friends are doing it. I hate the playstyle myself, so I'm just not going to.

That is with enlightment of course. Both for me and them.

This sounds exactly like the launch of Craglorn, when some folks skyrocketed to VR10 through a variety of... let's just call them "unintended mechanics." Those methods were subsequently nerfed. Over time, the rest of us caught up.

I guess the difference is, there's no catching up this time. If there really are sustainable ways for people to knock out 55k exp/ minute, I hope ZOS takes a hard look at those, and quickly.

pppontus

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Can't share it because I purposefully won't ask for it, I know for sure it happens tho since friends are doing it. I hate the playstyle myself, so I'm just not going to.

That is with enlightment of course. Both for me and them.

Uh, whatever dude. Try to stick to facts that you can prove. I for one do not believe that this Shangri La spot exists. If you throw around fantastical numbers like that it makes it appear that "anyone" can get a CP level in under 15mins. If it was that easy there would be no need for your thread.

It's fine with me, you don't have to believe me. You will know within a few days, I promise. These things never stay secret for long. Same thing as every other grind.. Hircine, Rkund, whatever.

Snit wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Can't share it because I purposefully won't ask for it, I know for sure it happens tho since friends are doing it. I hate the playstyle myself, so I'm just not going to.

That is with enlightment of course. Both for me and them.

This sounds exactly like the launch of Craglorn, when some folks skyrocketed to VR10 through a variety of... let's just call them "unintended mechanics." Those methods were subsequently nerfed. Over time, the rest of us caught up.

I guess the difference is, there's no catching up this time. If there really are sustainable ways for people to knock out 55k exp/ minute, I hope ZOS takes a hard look at those, and quickly.

Yup. We will never catch up, that's the whole god damn champion system. >_<

f047ys3v3n

Jujujitsu wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Just did AA on the PTS, got 55K XP with Enlightenment. 8 runs of AA per day to gain 1 single CP.

Also 1 run of AA = 1,5 minute of grinding.

Please share this technique / location that I can go to and get 55K XP in 1.5mins ?

Hmm, takes me 4 min to get 55k. They are much more efficient than me.

Here is the issue with Zenimaxies chasing around the xp with a nerf hammer. The bottom line is that they will never catch it. Killing mobs gives XP (killing bosses used to as well but we know what happened to that). If it did not give XP people would not do it. Some places have mobs more concentrated or faster to re-spawn than other places. Ergo, you have grinding spots. At some point the XP of all these spots was set and the amount seemed reasonable to the game designer. At another point much later, after Zenimaxie found and nerfed the grind before, this one became the highest XP per hour, and people switched to it. At some point in the future they will find this one and the process will repeat.

We can continue this process until the last mob in the last area pays 1xp per kill at the cost of resources to find and nerf it as well as the nerfed content no longer paying much of any xp to people legitimately running it. Or... the content that is designed to be repeatable (dailies quests in craiglorn and cyridill, daily dungeons, and trials) could be made to pay a huge chunk of xp at turn in instead of a pittance. This could also be the case for PVP quests (which are stupid and broken I might add because you can't choose your objective and so get random crap to do and can't turn it in at the objective and so would have to basically leave the fight for a long time to turn it in.) They could also make PVE quests pay some actual XP. Seriously, some of these quests pay the same amount of XP as killing one enemy in the course of the quest.

The bottom line is that when your quests are specked to pay only an insignificantly small percentage of the total XP earned during the quest at the end you should expect people to forgo that part in favor of grinding the mobs as it is much more efficient XP/hour wise and also much easier. You all probably don't remember this but both the thief boss and spellscar mobs are actually parts of craiglorn daily quests that no one does. Grinding is a result of a poor incentive structure in a game. It is not the fault of the players who are responding to those incentive. It is the fault of the designers who have incentivized activities that they do not want players to engage in. ZOS's designers simply opted for a poor ratio of turn in XP / XP earned from mobs during the quest and now they are running around like a kids soccer team after the ball trying to hit the grind spots with a nerf hammer.

olemanwinter

Craven_Killmore wrote: »

The people who put in the time get to be stronger, kinda like in every game ever made.

This isn't even remotely true. The people who study the most don't always get the best grades. The books with the most pages aren't always the best. The guy who practices the most jump shots doesn't necessarily make the NBA.

This system is actually the antithesis of the real world. It replaces skill with grind.

Actually in real life whenever someone did benefit from grind its usually to GAIN SKILL.

In other words. .. You might be able to "put in the most time" and practice your jump shot to go pro...but you can't practice your way into growing a foot taller.

DeLindsay

Don't worry folks, ZoS will make up some ridiculous excuse as to why they can't increase XP for all the other playstyles and continue nerfing XP gain via Grinding/Questing until it's so painful to level Characters through Vet Ranks that when they bring out +200% XP Potions in the Crown Store we'll all jump for joy. Also, coming to a Crown Store near you:

• $1 per Champion Point increase.
• Bundle deals
  • 12 Points for $10.
  • 25 Points for $20.
  • 75 Points for $50.

Laugh away but since ZoS is so inept that they can't figure out how to fix the XP disparity between playstyles even after multiple Feedbacks and Forums Threads from those of us that tested this crap on PTS, the above is exactly where it's heading.

tiamak

Ok, when I compared the gap in the Chamption System with the unreachable crown in PvP, I just wanted to argue that people (like me, for example, or many others) can have fun in an environment where something is definitely out of reach for them. This might have been a bad comparison. Still, I take it to be a valid point about a large part of the player base with respect to the gap in the Champion System.

As I see it now, thanks to all your insightful posts, the problem is the following:

Usually (in most other MMOs, in ESO pre-1.6), there is a cap on progression. Some will reach this gap sooner, others later, but this mechanic imposes some sort of gathering point for the player base where the high end players have to wait for the others to catch up. Then, that cap is raised with the arrival of new content and the race begins again. Now, with the Champion System the gathering point is so far away that many players will never reach it. At least, those players that keep highest pace in rushing towards that cap will be superior for a very long time.

Personally, I like the de facto uncapped progression with the Champion System better. I'm by far no high end player, so maybe this oppinion doesn't count. But, I like the idea and design of the new system. And if level caps don't get raised every half a year, I probably don't have to do a complete overhaul auf my eqquipment every half a year.

Now, concerning high end competition in PvE and PvP, I must admit that I simply don't have any insight on the impact of CPs. Can someone please enlighten me (sorry for the pun)? Are there no diminishing returns of the CPs? What's the difference between, say, 150 CP and 1000 CP? Do we have any average numbers on the CP gain per hour?

DeLindsay

tiamak wrote: »

Are there no diminishing returns of the CPs? What's the difference between, say, 150 CP and 1000 CP? Do we have any average numbers on the CP gain per hour?

Read HERE for a full list of CP gain per Hour which is inline with exactly what ZoS was told by many of us that tested it on PTS and they literally did nothing about it. Yes there is sharp DR in the Champion System. You get something like 50% of the value of a Star with only the first 30 or so points. Also nobody here is arguing about one Player having 1000 CP and another having 150, we're talking about how 1 playstyle in ESO trumps all and ZoS needs to fix that WITHOUT nerfing Grinding even more. Considering all the Feedback we gave ZoS during PTS it's obvious that either they don't care to fix it or they already have plans to put super high XP potions in the Crown Store as well as possibly being able to purchase CP outright, "as a convenience".

All they would have to do is listen to their Player base and increase XP gain where it needs to be to bring it closer inline with Grinding.

RoamingRiverElk

When you will continuously lose to people in PvP simply because they have more CP than you do and not because of skill, PvP will stop being fun.
Out there, in the field, I doubt many people will see losing due to passives gained by grinding as fair. And people like fairness. Even primates demand fairness ( http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140918141151.htm ). It is something at the core of our being and should not be underestimated.

When something stops being fun, people quit. And this is what's being talked about in guilds.

Rune_Relic

Its not just that though....its the very core of the game design.
Did you really make all that content to explore...all those quests to do...all those achievements to get.....
..just so every body ignores "all of it" because they have to spend all their time grinding just so they don't get left behind ?

This is already the case....every ignoring there normal gameply just because they are forced into this... in effect...arms race.
The US and Russia eventually could see the insanity of arms proliferation.
Who needs schooling, welfare, food....just spend it all on arms instead.
Yet here we are.

Does this make the game FUN ?
Is the game all about smacking pixels over the head and nothing else now ?

f047ys3v3n

Yesterday and today we lost 2 of the 4 best AD endgame tanks still in playing and one of the most important hubs, raid leaders, and guild leaders in game. Vaun and Myr you will be missed. We had good times and topped 2 of the 4 NA leaderboards at the end of 1.5. Hope to still see you around TS. Wishing all good things for you.

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