Question for ZOS about player separation in the Champion System.

pppontus

So, there has been a few threads that have touched this subject - but I feel this deserves a topic dedicated to it as this question needs to be answered. This is a serious issue being raised in endgame guilds all over at the moment: how to handle player separation. The patch has been out for a mere few days, and we are already seeing how large the gap will be.

I know for a fact, that people are gaining at least 10 CP a day and that is without any enlightenment bugs. Some people have claimed to have 120 CP already, that I can't verify, but even just 10 CP a day is game breaking. For those of us who work full time and come home to enjoy gaming for a few hours, we could never keep up with this. I'll be happy to gain 1 or in some crazy situation even 2 CP a day. I gained about a half yesterday while being enlightened just doing my normal stuff, killing some VR10 mobs while farming recipes, etc. and a few PVE quests in Cyrodiil.

This means within one month, someone grinding will have 370 CP while people "like me" will have 90 if we're lucky. Fast forward 3 months from now and they'll have 970 CP which means almost all useful passives unlocked and well on their way to maxing the system.

At this point the discussion starts around what we will do as an endgame guild, we like to do raiding for progression, speedruns and leaderboard times etc. After already having done exactly all the content in game so many times, that's really all the progression that is offered by content in this game. However, this power gap, will mean that everyone like me who has limited time to play will simply be a hindrance for progression for all the other members. Basically, we will have to step down and leave raiding to leave room for progression for the rest. Which we'll obviously do, because none of us want to be a burden on the others, and on top of that it really doesn't seem fun to run around in equal gear, skill and build to others while pulling significantly less DPS and being significantly less efficient in all matters of survivability, resource management etc. Then I'd rather not do it at all.

So with raiding out of the question, what is there left to do? Well, we can always do dailies to get some RNG gear that might make us slightly more efficient at doing dailies. Plus we'll get that half a champion point a day if we do 4-5 dailies. However, also here we'll start noticing issues within a month.. because also in these dungeons we will be significantly less effective than our guildies which will get really really demoralizing considering the only thing that separates us really, is the playtime. Nothing else. I have every single good (or used to be good) set in the game so no matter what set would be the best.. I can get it. I have full good sets of Infallible Aether, Eternal Yokeda, Vicious Ophidian etc. and every single piece from the other Trials, all daily sets, you name it.. Sure, that gear sucks now, which is another thing.. but you get my point. There is no difference between our gear, our personal skill or our builds but still - we will be *** in comparison in a few months. Willing to continue doing this? I doubt it. Not to mention that after 900 CP, you can probably duo the dailies, so you won't even have to bother grouping with people who don't have x amount of CP.

Alright, so PVE is a no-go unless you want to solo and do the same quests over and over again. What about PVP?

So.. my original thought was: but alright, I'll just do PVP instead! Well, if there is anywhere that this issue is going to really shine .. it's going to be PVP. Most of us have seen some of the ridiculous power that people could achieve in the Champion System on the PTS, can you imagine the fact that within 3 months.. someone is going to have 900+ CP already. They will have all of the strong passives in the Champion System and tons of points in to all sorts of block cost reduction, reduction of snares, fears etc. It will literally be impossible to beat them unless they are so much worse than you. Even close to equal skill levels, they will win, every single time. And how many PVP guilds are going to want to bring a healer that dies as long as someone just looks at them? Not many.. I'm sure.

Basically, ZOS, you have introduced a system that is going to make all the challenging parts of this game void for a large amount of players. Do you think we'll be paying for a game that allows us to do some dungeons, maybe farm some flowers and make gold.. all the while being completely gimped in comparison to the "grinding" part of the population?

As a bonus, how fun is the game actually going to be for those who grind it out? How many players will you lose because they simply get burned out grinding for these stupid points? I seem to recall you lost people to the VR grind, and then you went ahead and introduced a grind that's 3600 times worse. How many players are you going to lose from the fact that no one who hasn't grinded will be able to set their foot in PVP without getting obliterated? Both of those who have no one to fight, and those who get obliterated.. How many players are going to quit because they can't get a group to do content like Trials when the population is spread out between so many different power levels? How many players are going to quit because when they grinded all these points all of the content turns into a joke in difficulty, so there stops being any point in actually doing anything?

I don't really expect you to answer any of the questions above, but the one I (and I'm sure many, many other guilds who have had this same conversation) would like an answer to is: How are you going to handle this player separation?

asteldian

Thankfully I don't do hardcore style raids, so CP is not an issue for me, and for many casual type players it won't be an issue - with 70 CP vet dungeons are easy, I am also pretty confident current raids will be doable to, and I know vet DSA is.
As a result, for those not interested in leader boards etc. CP doesn't really matter much. I'll get them when I get them.
So, for many players it is not a major issue. However, the post is still very relevant for PvP and also hardcore end gamers who are forever trying to get that 1 more DPS.
Perhaps for PvP, in time there will be a battle buff that puts you at X CP equally split in the system. For pve, well, by the time they try come up with a solution most of the hardcore guys probably already maxed out

pppontus

asteldian wrote: »

Thankfully I don't do hardcore style raids, so CP is not an issue for me, and for many casual type players it won't be an issue - with 70 CP vet dungeons are easy, I am also pretty confident current raids will be doable to, and I know vet DSA is.
As a result, for those not interested in leader boards etc. CP doesn't really matter much. I'll get them when I get them.
So, for many players it is not a major issue. However, the post is still very relevant for PvP and also hardcore end gamers who are forever trying to get that 1 more DPS.
Perhaps for PvP, in time there will be a battle buff that puts you at X CP equally split in the system. For pve, well, by the time they try come up with a solution most of the hardcore guys probably already maxed out

While I agree with you that completing the content isn't the issue, the issue is we will all be very limited in what players we can play with. Who is going to take you to a Trial or VDSA when half of the people interested in that content have already grinded up 900 CP? They won't take you (or me). So we are stuck with half a playerbase to complete content that people are already losing interest in doing. Same with dungeons, etc. It's an issue of separation, not whether content can be completed or not, because we know it can.

TehMagnus

10 Cp a day is doable, I think some players can be getting around 15 - 18 cp by grinding for 4 to 6h.

If I understand the CP system well, we're going to have, everyday, X amount of Enlightenment (the amount doesn't seem to be the same for all the players, haven't figured that out yet, I suppose the less you play during those 24h, the more you get?), and you can stack "bonus" enlightenment for up to 3 days in a row.

This means that the CP advancement is "slowed" for people who are at the top aka the people who play enough to, each day, get the max out of their enlightenment bonus, which could be a fair amount of people since the bonus isn't really huge.
At the same time, slower players who can only play a couple of hours a day, could be permanently enlightened since they won't play enough to get all of their CP experience in 3 days.

This still means that if you are very active & want to get ahead, you can do so by grinding every day like a zombie and on the long run, it doesn't change the fact that this system will create "steps" in the players, since it's just like a race:

A: You'll have those who can't even get all the CP bonus enlightenment every day and will get further and further and further behind (without any hope of coming back since enlightenment can only be stacked for 3 days max).
B: Those who get their CP bonus every day and hardly get more than 1 CP after which will probably be most casual players.
C : And those who will grind to get to their CP objective, or play enough every day to get 2 or 3 times more exp that their enlightenment bonus provides
And the front of the race, the people that make it into a personal mission to obtain every single one of those CP by grinding every day like a zombie till their eyes bleed.

In the end, people who are in groups C and D will get further and further ahead of players in groups A and B, thus creating a large gap between them.
A similar gap will exist between players in groups A and B but the A group is much more spread in terms of # of CP earned than group B (who has a strict minimum of CP gained per day since they get all their enlightenment XP every day).

Imagine a player who starts @ level 1 just 6 months into this system . Even if he plays as much as someone from group C, he will, at best, eventually, reach the guys in group B.

Imagine a player who starts @level 1 just one year, into this system?

At least with a VERTICAL progression, you got a cap, there is The best armor combo, the higher level, and a decent amount of time for ANY player to eventually catch up to it. This system places people hopelessly behind

pppontus

TehMagnus wrote: »

10 Cp a day is doable, I think some players can be getting around 15 - 18 cp by grinding for 4 to 6h.

If I understand the CP system well, we're going to have, everyday, X amount of Enlightenment (the amount doesn't seem to be the same for all the players, haven't figured that out yet, I suppose the less you play during those 24h, the more you get?), and you can stack "bonus" enlightenment for up to 3 days in a row.

This means that the CP advancement is "slowed" for people who are at the top aka the people who play enough to, each day, get the max out of their enlightenment bonus, which could be a fair amount of people since the bonus isn't really huge.
At the same time, slower players who can only play a couple of hours a day, could be permanently enlightened since they won't play enough to get all of their CP experience in 3 days.

This still means that if you are very active & want to get ahead, you can do so by grinding every day like a zombie and on the long run, it doesn't change the fact that this system will create "steps" in the players, since it's just like a race:

A: You'll have those who can't even get all the CP bonus enlightenment every day and will get further and further and further behind (without any hope of coming back since enlightenment can only be stacked for 3 days max).
B: Those who get their CP bonus every day and hardly get more than 1 CP after which will probably be most casual players.
C : And those who will grind to get to their CP objective, or play enough every day to get 2 or 3 times more exp that their enlightenment bonus provides
And the front of the race, the people that make it into a personal mission to obtain every single one of those CP by grinding every day like a zombie till their eyes bleed.

In the end, people who are in groups C and D will get further and further ahead of players in groups A and B, thus creating a large gap between them.
A similar gap will exist between players in groups A and B but the A group is much more spread in terms of # of CP earned than group B (who has a strict minimum of CP gained per day since they get all their enlightenment XP every day).

Imagine a player who starts @ level 1 just 6 months into this system . Even if he plays as much as someone from group C, he will, at best, eventually, reach the guys in group B.

Imagine a player who starts @level 1 just one year, into this system?

Exactly, the perfect description of what's going to happen. And then again, even if players in group A want to do a Trial - are they going to find enough people in their group to do it with? How many players in Group C or D are going to be interested in doing Trials with anyone from group A, etc.

I mean for me, I will probably end up in Group A simply because I refuse to take my 2-3 hours of playtime each day to grinding towards a goalpost that's so far in the future it'll more than likely have moved significantly by the time I get 1/10th of the way. Whereas before I could simply grind my 30-40 hours total and then be at the cap and even compete on the leaderboards, without having to dedicate my life to it.

But even if you take the competetive aspect out of it, and simply look at whether or not you can do the content anymore I'm deeply worried about how groups are going to form at all when we have this large of a gap between players.

It's just pointless. People who grind will get tired as ***, and will have grinded mostly to make easy content even easier. People who won't grind will find themselves far behind others in power and be discouraged by the idea of a 6 month straight grind every day to even come close.

So who is this system benefiting? People who just quest on their own with no desire to group with anyone? Because it feels like everyone else is getting heavily punished.. in one way (months of mindless grinding) or another (being left behind).

As for your last example, to put it simply I can't see that anyone is ever going to start playing this game in 6 months. Just the idea of this system will effectively shut down any intake of players whatsoever, once they realise how bad it actually is.

tiamak

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

pppontus

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

Not really, I never cared about the fact that I wouldn't get 5% cheaper ultimates because I don't have time to get Emperor. That's a tiny, tiny advantage. We are talking about a massive power increase: 25% more to all types of damage, more crits, more crit damage as well as sustainability with 25% cheaper spells, 25% more regen and a ton of defensive boosts that makes it almost impossible to die, reduced block cost, dodge cost, shorter CC times, 10K more of each resource.. it's absolutely massive. I tested a few different CP levels on the PTS and the difference is absolutely massive. It's far more than a 100% increase to power, when the whole system should have never given more than 10% total power, to remain balanced in any way.

I agree that there should be incentive for people to spend more time, but that should be non-essential stuff. Precisely like Former Emperor: titles, small 2% increases to regen, 5% cheaper ultimates. Also stuff like gold gain, more AP, more skill points, skills, etc. All the stuff that was in the game was already pretty rewarding for spending your time, this system is just flat out broken in the insane amount of power it gives you. And it's purely a reward for grinding.

If grinding didn't exist, then yes, maybe this system could work. No grinding, and balanced XP rewards, then the disparity would be manageable. If enlightenment worked the way it was advertised, it would work better yet. The issue is that people are gaining levels in this system 20x faster than someone who is just "playing normally" and enjoying the game.

If enlightenment was purely rewarded to people who play less, then it would work as a catch-up mechanic, now enlightenment is equally rewarded to everyone and that is not a catch-up mechanic at all.

Also, in my opinion, the fact that you could be competitive without an absolutely massive time-commitment to endless grinding - was definitely a plus for ESO. I don't really understand why people wouldn't want it that way.

TehMagnus

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

You ask if things where different before CP and you compare it with emperor?

There is a difference between a game where the potential growth of your character is and endless race where people who start late are never able to catch up, vs a normal leveling system where ANYONE who tries can eventually get to the top tier of players. I've seen many many people that sometimes ask me for build advice you gradually become better and better players, getting better and better DPS and clearing harder content. Those guys where VR14. The only thing they lacked was training and maybe some dropable gear that is easy peasy to obtain in trials.

In the future, EVEN if you have skill, the gap between players will consistantly make you a worse healer, tank or DPSer just because you don't have all the points in the passives that give you that extra resistance, stamina regen, block cost reduction, increased healing, increased spell penetration.

Testing in PTS has proven that the DPS gap between 70 andd 3600 CP can be up to 6x more DPS. This means that regardless of your skill or how hard you try, you will be, in fact, hopelessly behind if you don't get & stay in front of the race, since the beginning. Many people will quit over this fact, others won't even bother trying.

Palidon

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

10 Cp a day is doable, I think some players can be getting around 15 - 18 cp by grinding for 4 to 6h.

If I understand the CP system well, we're going to have, everyday, X amount of Enlightenment (the amount doesn't seem to be the same for all the players, haven't figured that out yet, I suppose the less you play during those 24h, the more you get?), and you can stack "bonus" enlightenment for up to 3 days in a row.

This means that the CP advancement is "slowed" for people who are at the top aka the people who play enough to, each day, get the max out of their enlightenment bonus, which could be a fair amount of people since the bonus isn't really huge.
At the same time, slower players who can only play a couple of hours a day, could be permanently enlightened since they won't play enough to get all of their CP experience in 3 days.

This still means that if you are very active & want to get ahead, you can do so by grinding every day like a zombie and on the long run, it doesn't change the fact that this system will create "steps" in the players, since it's just like a race:

A: You'll have those who can't even get all the CP bonus enlightenment every day and will get further and further and further behind (without any hope of coming back since enlightenment can only be stacked for 3 days max).
B: Those who get their CP bonus every day and hardly get more than 1 CP after which will probably be most casual players.
C : And those who will grind to get to their CP objective, or play enough every day to get 2 or 3 times more exp that their enlightenment bonus provides
And the front of the race, the people that make it into a personal mission to obtain every single one of those CP by grinding every day like a zombie till their eyes bleed.

In the end, people who are in groups C and D will get further and further ahead of players in groups A and B, thus creating a large gap between them.
A similar gap will exist between players in groups A and B but the A group is much more spread in terms of # of CP earned than group B (who has a strict minimum of CP gained per day since they get all their enlightenment XP every day).

Imagine a player who starts @ level 1 just 6 months into this system . Even if he plays as much as someone from group C, he will, at best, eventually, reach the guys in group B.

Imagine a player who starts @level 1 just one year, into this system?

Exactly, the perfect description of what's going to happen. And then again, even if players in group A want to do a Trial - are they going to find enough people in their group to do it with? How many players in Group C or D are going to be interested in doing Trials with anyone from group A, etc.

I mean for me, I will probably end up in Group A simply because I refuse to take my 2-3 hours of playtime each day to grinding towards a goalpost that's so far in the future it'll more than likely have moved significantly by the time I get 1/10th of the way. Whereas before I could simply grind my 30-40 hours total and then be at the cap and even compete on the leaderboards, without having to dedicate my life to it.

But even if you take the competetive aspect out of it, and simply look at whether or not you can do the content anymore I'm deeply worried about how groups are going to form at all when we have this large of a gap between players.

It's just pointless. People who grind will get tired as ***, and will have grinded mostly to make easy content even easier. People who won't grind will find themselves far behind others in power and be discouraged by the idea of a 6 month straight grind every day to even come close.

So who is this system benefiting? People who just quest on their own with no desire to group with anyone? Because it feels like everyone else is getting heavily punished.. in one way (months of mindless grinding) or another (being left behind).

As for your last example, to put it simply I can't see that anyone is ever going to start playing this game in 6 months. Just the idea of this system will effectively shut down any intake of players whatsoever, once they realise how bad it actually is.

You left out one group. Those who are not getting enlightenment or CP points and there are many reporting this issue.
I am not a grinder, however, since 1.6 on Tuesday I have actively been completing the Caldwell Gold quests and completing solo delves, Dolmans, World Bosses, and finding new locations a minimum of 5 hours a day. I have yet to be enlightened or receive one CP point above the 70 I initially received for my V14 character when I first played 1.6. I am currently playing a V6 character to level it up.

Sharee

ZOS will never balance content around the capabilities of the top 1% of their players. That means people who earn CP casually will be able to complete it all without issues.

The only case where they might be a hindrance to their guild is if that guild wants to be on the top of the leaderboards(fastest completion time) - but that is basically just fluff. Bragging rights.

I say let them have it. The 10CP/day people certainly are not casuals, so the top of the leaderboard will be filled with hardcore players - but that's not different from last patch. If you are a casual, you really shouldn't expect to be on that board, methinks.

pppontus

Palidon wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

10 Cp a day is doable, I think some players can be getting around 15 - 18 cp by grinding for 4 to 6h.

If I understand the CP system well, we're going to have, everyday, X amount of Enlightenment (the amount doesn't seem to be the same for all the players, haven't figured that out yet, I suppose the less you play during those 24h, the more you get?), and you can stack "bonus" enlightenment for up to 3 days in a row.

This means that the CP advancement is "slowed" for people who are at the top aka the people who play enough to, each day, get the max out of their enlightenment bonus, which could be a fair amount of people since the bonus isn't really huge.
At the same time, slower players who can only play a couple of hours a day, could be permanently enlightened since they won't play enough to get all of their CP experience in 3 days.

This still means that if you are very active & want to get ahead, you can do so by grinding every day like a zombie and on the long run, it doesn't change the fact that this system will create "steps" in the players, since it's just like a race:

A: You'll have those who can't even get all the CP bonus enlightenment every day and will get further and further and further behind (without any hope of coming back since enlightenment can only be stacked for 3 days max).
B: Those who get their CP bonus every day and hardly get more than 1 CP after which will probably be most casual players.
C : And those who will grind to get to their CP objective, or play enough every day to get 2 or 3 times more exp that their enlightenment bonus provides
And the front of the race, the people that make it into a personal mission to obtain every single one of those CP by grinding every day like a zombie till their eyes bleed.

In the end, people who are in groups C and D will get further and further ahead of players in groups A and B, thus creating a large gap between them.
A similar gap will exist between players in groups A and B but the A group is much more spread in terms of # of CP earned than group B (who has a strict minimum of CP gained per day since they get all their enlightenment XP every day).

Imagine a player who starts @ level 1 just 6 months into this system . Even if he plays as much as someone from group C, he will, at best, eventually, reach the guys in group B.

Imagine a player who starts @level 1 just one year, into this system?

Exactly, the perfect description of what's going to happen. And then again, even if players in group A want to do a Trial - are they going to find enough people in their group to do it with? How many players in Group C or D are going to be interested in doing Trials with anyone from group A, etc.

I mean for me, I will probably end up in Group A simply because I refuse to take my 2-3 hours of playtime each day to grinding towards a goalpost that's so far in the future it'll more than likely have moved significantly by the time I get 1/10th of the way. Whereas before I could simply grind my 30-40 hours total and then be at the cap and even compete on the leaderboards, without having to dedicate my life to it.

But even if you take the competetive aspect out of it, and simply look at whether or not you can do the content anymore I'm deeply worried about how groups are going to form at all when we have this large of a gap between players.

It's just pointless. People who grind will get tired as ***, and will have grinded mostly to make easy content even easier. People who won't grind will find themselves far behind others in power and be discouraged by the idea of a 6 month straight grind every day to even come close.

So who is this system benefiting? People who just quest on their own with no desire to group with anyone? Because it feels like everyone else is getting heavily punished.. in one way (months of mindless grinding) or another (being left behind).

As for your last example, to put it simply I can't see that anyone is ever going to start playing this game in 6 months. Just the idea of this system will effectively shut down any intake of players whatsoever, once they realise how bad it actually is.

You left out one group. Those who are not getting enlightenment or CP points and there are many reporting this issue.
I am not a grinder, however, since 1.6 on Tuesday I have actively been completing the Caldwell Gold quests and completing solo delves, Dolmans, World Bosses, and finding new locations a minimum of 5 hours a day. I have yet to be enlightened or receive one CP point above the 70 I initially received for my V14 character when I first played 1.6. I am currently playing a V6 character to level it up.

I left that out because this thread isn't about any bugs, this is my concerns about the system even when it's working correctly. There are other threads that discuss those bugs such as this one: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154781/enlightenment-working-for-anyone#latest

Sharee wrote: »

ZOS will never balance content around the capabilities of the top 1% of their players. That means people who earn CP casually will be able to complete it all without issues.

The only case where they might be a hindrance to their guild is if that guild wants to be on the top of the leaderboards(fastest completion time) - but that is basically just fluff. Bragging rights.

I say let them have it. The 10CP/day people certainly are not casuals, so the top of the leaderboard will be filled with hardcore players - but that's not different from last patch. If you are a casual, you really shouldn't expect to be on that board, methinks.

Well, I didn't ask to be casual. But I guess ZOS has decided to make me casual then? I've changed nothing as far as my playtime and what not is concerned and in 1.5 I was at #5 HR and #7 AA, those spots will in the future only be awarded to people who griiiiiiiiiind!

But no, that isn't even my primary concern. Leaderboards are fun for a sense of personal (and guild!) achievement, but I'm much more concerned with actually having fun with the game. I don't know, it's just, mostly all the things that used to be fun for me will be null and void now because it's all Champion System. I like theorycrafting builds, improving myself, etc. and trying to push DPS and figure out combos that are good.. now it doesn't matter if I do that because the guy next to me with 100 extra CP will beat me anyway.

And all of that aside, because I realise that doesn't affect everyone, it will be harder to find groups because you can be damn sure that in a game that awards legendary loot for weeklies etc. people will want those leaderboard spots in every run they do during every week there's a weekly to be had - and they will exclude people based on CP. Sure, there might be a few that won't, and it might take a while until we get there .. but it is 100% going to happen.

And in the end, even if I don't get "kicked out" in any way I will probably quit running them because I'll know that my presence is hindering the rest of the group in their progression.. because I don't have the CPs to take a boss hit to the face, or whatever. Basically, I don't think anyone enjoys being dead weight in a Trial and not because of anything you can change.. but because you didn't grind.

asteldian

Its undeniable that some are screwed by the change. But those in C and D don't group with the rest of us anyway.
The vast majority of players will be fine because most people running raids etc. Are not leaderboard chasing, as long as the team can do the content, whether they have 1000 or 1 CP is irrelevant to them. Just like they don't care if you run magicka or stamina builds because they can all do the damage needed, the fact one may do more than the other is not important.

That reality is great news for the many, but doesn't help those who are the unlucky few. Previously they could change to the current meta and be part of the high end crew, CP will prevent this unless they also have the time to grind it out. Unfortunately, I doubt ZOS will do much for them and they will be considered an acceptable casualty

pppontus

asteldian wrote: »

Its undeniable that some are screwed by the change. But those in C and D don't group with the rest of us anyway.
The vast majority of players will be fine because most people running raids etc. Are not leaderboard chasing, as long as the team can do the content, whether they have 1000 or 1 CP is irrelevant to them. Just like they don't care if you run magicka or stamina builds because they can all do the damage needed, the fact one may do more than the other is not important.

That reality is great news for the many, but doesn't help those who are the unlucky few. Previously they could change to the current meta and be part of the high end crew, CP will prevent this unless they also have the time to grind it out. Unfortunately, I doubt ZOS will do much for them and they will be considered an acceptable casualty

I think you're greatly underestimating the impact. Honestly, it was a while since I joined a PUG but when I did, everyone was chasing the weekly every single time. Almost all groups are constantly trying to get on the weekly leaderboard because of the legendary VR14 loot (including jewelry) you get from it, this will definitely mean that almost everyone will exclude based on this. Not to mention the fact that many people (me included) do not want to run with randoms, we want to run with like-minded people in TS and have fun. The pool of players to do this with will be shrinking rapidly as people get spread out across power gaps.

If you think that there's a small portion of players chasing leaderboard times, you must have not looked at the Weekly leaderboards much.. for AA there's usually 100 groups finishing in <14 minutes on there. Count all the groups that tried to get on the leaderboards but couldn't, and you will have almost every single Trial group that was ran that week. If you think that people won't start excluding lower CPs to have better chances to get their legendaries, well .. I think you're very wrong.

It won't happen immediately, but trust me, it will happen once people start to feel their "power" at higher CP levels. And then people that get excluded, and the excluders will start quitting because the game gets boring. Gamers are humans, they do sacrifice their enjoyment of the game for some pixels telling them that they did well.

Maybe ZOS can enlighten us whether all of this is actually tied in to some potentially profitable scheme for the Crown Store? I don't know, but anyone and everyone could see that this was going to happen with the system they launched.

Sphinx2318

solution: sell cp's in cash shop

RinaldoGandolphi

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

Craven_Killmore

The people who put in the time get to be stronger, kinda like in every game ever made.

Erock25

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

I'm not sure about your numbers and %'s but it should be something like this.

Snit

A small group of players will separate themselves from everyone else, and the gap will become quite wide. So what? There will be tiers in raiding groups, and those determined to climb the leaderboards will exclude based on CP's. That doesn't mean everyone else can't complete the content. They can, if they can find likeminded sorts.

It's similar to how some guilds, desiring those top spots, have more or less excluded certain classes from trials in the past. Some people thought this to be important. Others did not. ZOS has indicated what camp they inhabit.

(For reference, I fall into the "adult with a job" category, as well as the "I never find these great, possibly exploity grind spots" category. I'll be muddling along at one-point-something CP's per day)

ginoboehm

Snit wrote: »

A small group of players will separate themselves from everyone else, and the gap will become quite wide. So what? There will be tiers in raiding groups, and those determined to climb the leaderboards will exclude based on CP's. That doesn't mean everyone else can't complete the content. They can, if they can find likeminded sorts.

It's similar to how some guilds, desiring those top spots, have more or less excluded certain classes from trials in the past. Some people thought this to be important. Others did not. ZOS has indicated what camp they inhabit.

(For reference, I fall into the "adult with a job" category, as well as the "I never find these great, possibly exploity grind spots" category. I'll be muddling along at one-point-something CP's per day)

i don't think you have seen or tested a 3600 cp char or even a char with more than 1000cp. Have you ever seen or been an emperor in pvp? or fought some vr14 player with a level 30 char? it is about the same.
pppontus wants to play with his friends and his guild he wants to compete for the top times he wants to theocraft (and we all want him to theocraft because it is awesome what he does) but he will not be able to do it in the future not because of his lacking skill or willingness to work for a goal but simply because he lacks time. He cannot work for it because reaching 3600 cp is too far off he will never catch up again no matter how skilled he is anyone investing more time then him and are able to and willing to grind more cp a day. to even compare this to some class imbalance you heared would exclude some classes from trials (which no serious guild i know of did) just shows that you do not understand the magnitude of the imbalance and even if classes would be not viable to grind a new vr14 takes perhaps 50ish hours to close a gap to a player 1000cp ahead of you is impossible. And to little his concern with your "only a small group... so what" just shows that you don't want the same thing then pppontus me and a lot of other players i know from this game: we want compete we want to show that we can master a class we want to show that we can choose the best gear best rotation and execute it great to compete with our like minded friends for the best times, the best duels and to be the best in pvp. if you can not fathom that this game will be dead for us soon if anybody can outpower us just because he can aoe down monsters a longer time then we i can not make it any clearer just accept that we want something else from this game and respect it.

Morshire

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

pppontus

Morshire wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

In my opinion, this is an idiotic way of designing a game.. but we can disagree on that. The difference you don't seem to see is this is not like VR (which takes a few hours to catch up), this is MONTHS to catch up. That's the problem, the amount of commitment. It's a *** game.. but OK, if people want an unpaid job.. enjoy. I will not pay money for an unpaid job.

Snit

ginoboehm wrote: »

...no matter how skilled he is anyone investing more time then him and are able to and willing to grind more cp a day

That's a core design principle in MMO's. Time = advancement. That's how they keep you logging in for a year. The difference is there, here, we can suddenly reach level one-thousand-something.

The gap will be ridiculously big. But that's the flipside of a system where even maxxed characters will always have something they can do to advance in power every single day, even solo. They've designed a system where you're never done. That has large positive and negative effects.

The class stuff was a reference to a longish discussion we had in PTS. I shouldn't have brought it up again - this topic stands on its own, and it's important.

traigusb14_ESO2

As long as I can do the content I'm ok.

As long as they make new content playable at any CP level there will always be people to play with even guild with.

Can I do Dragonstar Yes.
Can I do Trials Yes.


Will I ever get to do them in hardmode and win? I dunno.

If Zenni has to tier by CP that is fine. (numbers made up)

Reccomended tiers

Hrothgar turtle pit (scaled to player level for pre 50s)

Hard Hrothgar turtle pit level 50 (1-300 CP)

Supa Hard Turtle pit ( 300- 1000 CP)

Supa Wikkid Hard turtle pit (1000- 2000 CP)

Supa Dupa WIkkid Hard turtle pit of doom (2000-max CP)


Tier determines drop rate of stuff. So everyone can play it, but the super math kids can play a reeeeaaaly hard versions for phatter lootz... or the same lootz more often.

Same with PVP. eventually they will probably have 300 CP and under serversetc.


-T

*Supa Dupa WIkkid Hard ____________ is trademarked by ME!

Robbmrp

With casual logon's during the week and not having time to grind I have yet to get a single CP point. At it's current rate of distribution I will be lucky if I get 10 CP a week from weekend play. In 3 weeks time, most of us will be at least 50 to 100 points, if not greater, behind other players with more time to play. Luckily I'm a healer so I am still needed for dungeons! But what about the other classes as the OP suggests. Adding the Champion system in and basing points off play time will only continue to widen the player levels.

Snit

Pro's of Unlimited Advancement:

- I will never feel like I can't do anything to advance my char, and I don't need a raid group to do it
- There's something useful to do every day
- As long as ZOS balances content around the median player, not the top-end, I will still be able to experience it
- In Cyrodiil, I will wreck people who play a lot less than I do, even if they are more skilled

Con's of Unlimited Advancement:

- I will never feel the satisfaction of knowing I am top-end, with maxxed skills
- I feel pressure to play a lot every day (or at least every three, so I don't lose my E)
- Some groups will exclude me from content, because they'd like to do it faster
- In Cyrodiil, people who play a lot more than I do will wreck me, even if they are less skilled

ZOS just took the usual Time = Power mechanic and turned it up to 11. Heck, Eleven-Hundred.

Soulshine

pppontus wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

In my opinion, this is an idiotic way of designing a game.. but we can disagree on that. The difference you don't seem to see is this is not like VR (which takes a few hours to catch up), this is MONTHS to catch up. That's the problem, the amount of commitment. It's a *** game.. but OK, if people want an unpaid job.. enjoy. I will not pay money for an unpaid job.

Design indeed. But then you have to take into account the premise on which the design is based to really get what the goal was anyway.

When you have the very creative director of the game saying things like "the reality is that most players don’t really care too much" when it comes to their stats, or that 99% of the players in the game, actually make it that in fact he knows 80% of the players are not as skilled as the "the 1%, the elite of the game" who were at the guild summit for example, it gets pretty clear, pretty fast that what the real view of the community playing actually is and that the driving force behind the design of the game was built around the premise that most players are all basically just sheep and don't really care about competitive builds anyway. Given some of the responses to this issue, I'd say now he is likely right. So ZoS gave them a little treadmill to run on so they think they are getting better and they will be happy.

Some things just never change....

pppontus

Soulshine wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

In my opinion, this is an idiotic way of designing a game.. but we can disagree on that. The difference you don't seem to see is this is not like VR (which takes a few hours to catch up), this is MONTHS to catch up. That's the problem, the amount of commitment. It's a *** game.. but OK, if people want an unpaid job.. enjoy. I will not pay money for an unpaid job.

Design indeed. But then you have to take into account the premise on which the design is based to really get what the goal was anyway.

When you have the very creative director of the game saying things like "the reality is that most players don’t really care too much" when it comes to their stats, or that 99% of the players in the game, actually make it that in fact he knows 80% of the players are not as skilled as the "the 1%, the elite of the game" who were at the guild summit for example, it gets pretty clear, pretty fast that what the real view of the community playing actually is and that the driving force behind the design of the game was built around the premise that most players are all basically just sheep and don't really care about competitive builds anyway. Given some of the responses to this issue, I'd say now he is likely right. So ZoS gave them a little treadmill to run on so they think they are getting better and they will be happy.

Some things just never change....

Yep. I'm also surprised how many people are actually jumping on this treadmill. I mean I'll just play around with the justice system for now, if they change this I'll stay and otherwise I'll simply find something else to play.. it isn't that big of a deal. I'm sure as hell not going to give up my life for a game.

But apparently, half my guilds are currently out grinding, so it's clearly working for some. I wonder how long it will take until people start quitting because all they do is grind.

traigusb14_ESO2

pppontus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

In my opinion, this is an idiotic way of designing a game.. but we can disagree on that. The difference you don't seem to see is this is not like VR (which takes a few hours to catch up), this is MONTHS to catch up. That's the problem, the amount of commitment. It's a *** game.. but OK, if people want an unpaid job.. enjoy. I will not pay money for an unpaid job.

Design indeed. But then you have to take into account the premise on which the design is based to really get what the goal was anyway.

When you have the very creative director of the game saying things like "the reality is that most players don’t really care too much" when it comes to their stats, or that 99% of the players in the game, actually make it that in fact he knows 80% of the players are not as skilled as the "the 1%, the elite of the game" who were at the guild summit for example, it gets pretty clear, pretty fast that what the real view of the community playing actually is and that the driving force behind the design of the game was built around the premise that most players are all basically just sheep and don't really care about competitive builds anyway. Given some of the responses to this issue, I'd say now he is likely right. So ZoS gave them a little treadmill to run on so they think they are getting better and they will be happy.

Some things just never change....

Yep. I'm also surprised how many people are actually jumping on this treadmill. I mean I'll just play around with the justice system for now, if they change this I'll stay and otherwise I'll simply find something else to play.. it isn't that big of a deal. I'm sure as hell not going to give up my life for a game.

But apparently, half my guilds are currently out grinding, so it's clearly working for some. I wonder how long it will take until people start quitting because all they do is grind.

Yeah, I'm not grinding. I'm playing a VR2 through gold and silver. My VR 14 gets the CPs too, and I take him out for dailies , riding upgrade, writs and a little dwemer motif farming... or if someone needs help with something. he doesn't have anything much to do until new content is out anyway

Never been a fan of grinding.

Snit

If your expectation is to be among the top-end of the player base, that is no longer compatible with any playstyle short of "obsessive."

Morshire

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

tiamak wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really get your point. Were things any different before the Chamption System? Take PvP for example: By far most of the players don't have any chance to ever become emperor. A guildmate had two weeks of spare time and said, he was going for the title in the newly started campaign. He was able to defend his place among the top ten PvP toons for quite a while until, tough luck, he had to take a sleep.

Don't we know this gap you're talking of from any other MMO? There are casual players, regular players and harcore players. The content they can complete and the level of competition always depends on the amount of time you're willing to spend online.

^^This - We have all the things the OP is discussing now, just to a lesser degree. VR1 cannot stand against a VR14 in 1V1 or PVP, yet they still go, they find a way to play, and the world keeps turning. I have personally run pledges with VR5. It was harder, but it got done. He had no problem finding our group, and we had no problem taking him. Content is not going to depend on your CP. The group part is on the players. And I don't care what you request, you cannot change the mentality of people.

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

After 24 hours, XP gains go back to normal, start process again.

Simply put, if folks want to grind points all day, not go outside, not get a job, etc, let them, just make an increasingly difficult climbing scale in order to do so. In essence one would have to play 22 straight hours to get even 2 Champion points per day. Enlightenment only works for the 1st CP and thats it, and can only be enlightened once every 24 hours.

Problem solved, You can't have a system that gives someone an advantage simply because they play more. Gear is one thing, im ok with someone getting better gear, but does a Casino give "Special favors" to the Blackjack player who plays everyday over the vacationing tourist that pops in once a year? of course not, and ESO shouldn't be any different.

This also solves the PVP CP issues as well killing two birds with one stone, as PVE grinders won;'t be able to pass PVPers, and PVPers won't be forced to spend hours a day doing PVE content they don;t want to do.

Why an increasing sliding scale wasn't introduce in this game to begin with is beyond me..CP are too easy to get...Mob XP needs to be lowered across the board(in terms of counting towards CP not Vet ranks), and the costs of CP need to go up at least 50% for each CP earned per day, and XP gains need to decrease with each CP gain per day in a sliding scale to prevent the system from being abused.

As of right now, as mainly a PVP player I am FORCED to grind X amount of time in PVE a day just to get enough CP to remain competitive because its impossible to get any kind of good CP gain in Cyrodiil as the XP gains in PVP are atrocious.

And this to me is wrong. So a game should penalize people who have more time to play? Cause that is what you are saying. Why not penalize people for not playing. Every 24 hours you go without logging in should mean that you have to get 1M XP for your next CP. It doubles everyday till you have 3 consecutive days, then it resets. - Stupid right? People calling for equality but punishing people to get it isn't really "equal" or "fair". You want more CP, log in more. Quests too slow for your taste, grind. PERIOD. And before you jump all over me, I have a family, and grandkids, and a job that requires at least 50+ hours. I am not a "hardcore", just a jealous wanna be. And I do not support this.

Here is the truth:
1) Will people be excluded from runs based on CP? Just as much as they are excluded based on VR level now.
2) Will lower level players be owned in PVP with the CP? Just as much as they do now with VR.
3) Will you be able to catch up playing casually? A bit longer, but no new content for 6-7 months (A guess on my part) and 3600 cap on CP means the grinders have to stop somewhere. They stop, you progress, you catch up.
4) Will there always be badasses better than you? Just as much now as with VR.

The point is, you cannot custom make the CP gain to suit one and exclude others. Yes, they need to fix the XP/CP gain so it is easier. But easier for all still doesn't solve the "gap". They also need to scale dungeons to account for different CP levels. They need to fix the LFG tool to make grouping easier. They should have soft capped CP to 500 (or less) and raised that cap with each DLC. They need to make more repeatable VR content so maxed players have something to do. And guess what, I bet this kind of thread will get you CP boost potions from the cash shop soon. All of that is a solution to the OP's problem.

But guess what? There will still be a gap. There are still going to be people better than you with better everything. It is a competitive game. Deal with it. Ruining the game more for "hardcore" players so you can feel badass too is not the right way. Want to be better, or have a better character? Play more. Want to not be excluded? Find people with similar situations and friend up. (Trust me, you do not have the only life style that limits game play) Need more time for gaming, get a sitter, send the wife/husband on a trip. Call in sick, use vacation time. This is not the game, or other gamers problems. Trying to get what they have without doing what they did is just dingy.

And this isn't at some person. It is at the discussion line the thread is going. YES - 100% agree ZOS needs to look at some things for XP/CP gaining, etc. But penalizing others cause they have more time for gaming than you and you are worried you won't catch up.....seriously?

In my opinion, this is an idiotic way of designing a game.. but we can disagree on that. The difference you don't seem to see is this is not like VR (which takes a few hours to catch up), this is MONTHS to catch up. That's the problem, the amount of commitment. It's a *** game.. but OK, if people want an unpaid job.. enjoy. I will not pay money for an unpaid job.

Design indeed. But then you have to take into account the premise on which the design is based to really get what the goal was anyway.

When you have the very creative director of the game saying things like "the reality is that most players don’t really care too much" when it comes to their stats, or that 99% of the players in the game, actually make it that in fact he knows 80% of the players are not as skilled as the "the 1%, the elite of the game" who were at the guild summit for example, it gets pretty clear, pretty fast that what the real view of the community playing actually is and that the driving force behind the design of the game was built around the premise that most players are all basically just sheep and don't really care about competitive builds anyway. Given some of the responses to this issue, I'd say now he is likely right. So ZoS gave them a little treadmill to run on so they think they are getting better and they will be happy.

Some things just never change....

Yep. I'm also surprised how many people are actually jumping on this treadmill. I mean I'll just play around with the justice system for now, if they change this I'll stay and otherwise I'll simply find something else to play.. it isn't that big of a deal. I'm sure as hell not going to give up my life for a game.

But apparently, half my guilds are currently out grinding, so it's clearly working for some. I wonder how long it will take until people start quitting because all they do is grind.

Yeah, I'm not grinding. I'm playing a VR2 through gold and silver. My VR 14 gets the CPs too, and I take him out for dailies , riding upgrade, writs and a little dwemer motif farming... or if someone needs help with something. he doesn't have anything much to do until new content is out anyway

Never been a fan of grinding.

And here I agree 100% - as I already stated. The system itself and the CP/XP conversion method sucks monkey ballllzzz. No argument there. What I don't agree with is the method proposed for fixing it. As this person said:

woodsro wrote: »

Its simple ZOS should have put "soft cap" on the amount of CP one can get per day. How to do this? simple:

1. First Champ point costs 400,000 XP
2. Second Champ point cost 800,000 (But all mobs now give 25% less XP)
3. 3rd Champion Point costs 1,600,000 XP (All mobs now give 35% less XP)
4. 4th Champion Point costs 2,000,000 XP (All mobs give 50% less XP)
5. 5th Champion Point costs 3,000,000 XP (All mobs give 70% less XP)
6. 6th Champion Point costs 4,000,000 XP(70% XP gain reduction)
7. etc

So now, playing casually, it would be fine. Then what about on my day off, I have 12+ hours I can waste. This time I could be catching up. But wait, now my CP gain is hindered. WTF? That is what I am saying. ZOS should not have made the system the way it is...agreed. A soft cap would have fixed this quickly. Each DLC opens X more CP to gain. The reason grinding is so appealing is it is, under the current system, the fastest way to get there. This is due in large part to 3600 CP being available. 1CP a day, as a casual player, means almost 10 years before I hit cap. WTF? If I have a good day, 2 CP a day. Now maybe I get there in 5-7 years? Still WTF? But I am not faulting the guy grinding, with the extra time to do so, because he/she is getting it done faster. And that was my point.

You all have clearly identified the problem. And I 100% agree. It is the solutions that have been presented that I dislike. XP/CP gain needs to balance out. There should be a soft cap to allow everyone to enjoy content, without feeling the min/maxers have for maxing out. The gap stays small. Everyone can remain competitive. Simple. But if the ceiling is X, I shouldn't tie a weight to others angles cause they can get there faster. The focus of the game is maxing out the CP. Nothing else. Grinding accomplishes this the fastest. ZOS needs to address this. Not how fast someone else gets there, but instead the means and reasons for trying.

Erock25

The true solution to this is that 360 CP total should be about 90% as powerful as 3600