ESO Character Offspring: Hybrid Races Concept

Panda244

Gidorick wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Interesting @Panda244. Awesome insight! I knew the Beast races were called Betmer but I didn't know the origin of "Bet" meaning beast. We know that the Thalmor (Aldmer) were involved in an experiment that took the moons Masser and Secunda away for a while, they were the ones to claim to have brought the moons back but we haven't a clue as to why they disappeared. This two-year period without the moons is called the "Void Nights".

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

One theory, which I personally ascribe to, is that the moons disappearing could have been triggered by the Thalmor, in an experiment of which the Khajiit were the subjects. The Thalmor, believing the Khajiit are descendant from Mer were trying to see if they could make the Khajiit Mer once again. Obviously it didn't work.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

I think the Khajiit being of Mer descent is a Mer belief and misunderstanding. Khajiit believe they were created from a formlessness, the same formlessness that the Bosmer were created from... I believe this formlessness was the et'Ada. From the et'Ada, the Aedra formed, as well as the Hist and the Khajiit. The Hist created the Argonians and the Aedra weakened into Ehlnofey who gave birth to the races of both Men and Mer.

So, in the sense that every creature comes from the et'Ada... yes, they are all the same. But I believe Khajiit to be the most 'pure' race in Tamriel, the one which is most directly linked to the original creation of Mundus.

But... this is just what I choose to believe.

@Gidorick Well! You're wrong!

I didn't include Ayleids because it'd confuse people, Dwemer and Falmer are on their own evolution thingy to, so didn't include them either.

How do you know I'm wrong? And what am I wrong about?

I don't know you're wrong, but the concept of Bosmer being created from formlessness? I had always thought they were just Altmer that left the Summerset Isle, like the Dunmer and Orsimer, etc etc etc. Evolution and all that nonsensical babble.

Gidorick

Panda244 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Interesting @Panda244. Awesome insight! I knew the Beast races were called Betmer but I didn't know the origin of "Bet" meaning beast. We know that the Thalmor (Aldmer) were involved in an experiment that took the moons Masser and Secunda away for a while, they were the ones to claim to have brought the moons back but we haven't a clue as to why they disappeared. This two-year period without the moons is called the "Void Nights".

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

One theory, which I personally ascribe to, is that the moons disappearing could have been triggered by the Thalmor, in an experiment of which the Khajiit were the subjects. The Thalmor, believing the Khajiit are descendant from Mer were trying to see if they could make the Khajiit Mer once again. Obviously it didn't work.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

I think the Khajiit being of Mer descent is a Mer belief and misunderstanding. Khajiit believe they were created from a formlessness, the same formlessness that the Bosmer were created from... I believe this formlessness was the et'Ada. From the et'Ada, the Aedra formed, as well as the Hist and the Khajiit. The Hist created the Argonians and the Aedra weakened into Ehlnofey who gave birth to the races of both Men and Mer.

So, in the sense that every creature comes from the et'Ada... yes, they are all the same. But I believe Khajiit to be the most 'pure' race in Tamriel, the one which is most directly linked to the original creation of Mundus.

But... this is just what I choose to believe.

@Gidorick Well! You're wrong!

I didn't include Ayleids because it'd confuse people, Dwemer and Falmer are on their own evolution thingy to, so didn't include them either.

How do you know I'm wrong? And what am I wrong about?

I don't know you're wrong, but the concept of Bosmer being created from formlessness? I had always thought they were just Altmer that left the Summerset Isle, like the Dunmer and Orsimer, etc etc etc. Evolution and all that nonsensical babble.

OH! no... I don't think they were! That's just what the Khajiits believe. In their little creation story they speak of the wood elves being created from a formlessness... I think that's a misunderstanding by the Khajiit. lol. I love how lore isn't "history" its myth and belief... and it's sometimes contradictory

Ysne58

I don't have the quotable resources on hand but the bit with the moons going away --I'm pretty sure the Thalmor didn't bring them back, they just want the Khajiit to think they did so that the Khajiit will follow them.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Towers

I've seen discussion in various places that the moon lattice could be one of those towers.

AshySamurai

The reproductive biology of orcs is at present not well understood, and the same is true of goblins, trolls, harpies, dreugh, tsaesci, imga, various daedra and many others. Certainly, there have been cases of intercourse between these "races," generally in the nature of *** or magickal seduction, but there have been no documented cases of pregnancy.

Khajiit differ from humans and elves not only their skeletal and dermal physiology -- the "fur" that covers their bodies -- but their metabolism and digestion as well.

So, you have only one viable option for every faction. Again, what the point of it all?

Gidorick

AshySamurai wrote: »

The reproductive biology of orcs is at present not well understood, and the same is true of goblins, trolls, harpies, dreugh, tsaesci, imga, various daedra and many others. Certainly, there have been cases of intercourse between these "races," generally in the nature of *** or magickal seduction, but there have been no documented cases of pregnancy.

Khajiit differ from humans and elves not only their skeletal and dermal physiology -- the "fur" that covers their bodies -- but their metabolism and digestion as well.

So, you have only one viable option for every faction. Again, what the point of it all?

It would be two viable options for each faction if orcs weren't included. 30 if any race any alliance.

The point? To encourage alternate characters and increase replayability. I feel I've been clear about this.

Gidorick

hey @Faugaun, check out this thread!

PKMN12

Will NEVER happen, this is not a thing in really ANY RPG, ESPECIALLY an MMO.

Faugaun

@Gidorick Thanks am a day late!

Gidorick

That's what's holding this Genre back @Pknm12.... The never's and the cant's. Every MMO ends up being a copy of everything that came before.

Parrotbrain

There is a storyline in the main quest that contradicts the "Racial Phylogeny" books however. Lyris' father mentions that her mother died in childbirth because he was reckless when he "gave her [his] seed", as the "blood of giant's flows through his veins". What I basically understood is from this scene is that the baby was much bigger than the mother and the trauma of the birth caused her to die, which basically means that Lyris did not share all the physical features of the mother as she was larger due to the giant blood from the father. I do not know, but I thought at the time that this scene was purposely put in to cast doubt on that section ("Racial Phylogeny") of the pre-existing lore...

Also it would be cool if they add naughty animations concerning the most "fun" part of reproduction into the game with this suggested content, don't you think ?

Faugaun

PKMN12 wrote: »

Will NEVER happen, this is not a thing in really ANY RPG, ESPECIALLY an MMO.

And we wonder why so many games fail....because developers get this same mentality "it will never happen because it hasn't happened before" except prior to about 50 years ago computers had never happened, 60 years ago spaceship launches hadn't happened....5 years ago graphine hadn't happened, 10 years ago tablets hadn't happened, 110 years ago planes hadn't happened, if fact at some point in time everything around you save a few things hadn't happened.

Open your mind a little ...oh and BTW a game called "Spore" ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_(2008_video_game) ) did a concept similar to this, so did the Sims ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sims ), even mincraft has animals that reproduce ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minecraft ). Pokemon played with thtia concept ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokemon ).

Reproduction and genetics concepts have been integrated into many games over the years. Maybe world of Warcraft didn't do it...but you can't out wow wow. Step outside of the small box my friend... Its roomy out here. The way to carve out a niche is to "go where no man has gone before". Then you are the 700 pound gorilla.

@Gidorick I think its a,great foundational concept, I would tweak your details a bit and make it be more similar to real life genetics.

Suppose we wanted to focus on hair color!

You have (for simplicity sake) two men one with black hair and one with white hair....also for simplicity sake we will assume that each appearance trait is controlled by only one loci (this keeps the effects simple for discussion, but I fully support genetics with multi loci effects if ZoS wanted to open that can of worms). There are several basic options regarding how these two hair colors can relate to each other. One can be recessive to the other or they can be codominant (we can make it more complex but thats probably not necessary).

In the case of one being dominant over the other this is a simple response the dominant trait is expressed and the recessive isn't but it could be passed on to future generations....In the instance of codominance the hair might become a mix or some other combined appearance.

So in ESO what I would propose is that appearance traits (and racial abilities) be given dominance and recessiveness a new character created (outside the lineage system) would be a racial pure breed. So all pairs of genes would be identical. When these first characters are bred to create the first children then they generate a fixed (I am ignoring mutations...we don't want to go there trust me) character based on the mixed physical traits (the racial passives would also provide fixed results providing the player with no choices on this first generation ....boring right? Well when these second generation characters are leveled and bred to a character it becomes suddenly interesting because one or both characters may have up to two traits per gene (a potential total of up to four different gene combinations for up to four different genes) all of a sudden the player now goes to a character creator screen and gets to choose between the various options provided by that specific combination (these effects could range the gambit dominant/dominant, codominanxe, dominants/recessive, or recessive/recessive, Depending on theninout traits). This would be much more limited that the initial character builder where you're not limited by the genetic possibilities. Racials would be the same way first progeny generation would get a fixed result, all argonians purebreds crossed with khajiit purebreds would have the same passives. But suddenly if two of these children are crossed then you could open up the full range of combinations of khajiit/argonian passives.

By starting all non lineage characters as homozygous purebreds then it requires at least two generations to unlock the full combination potentials and really limits you based on your parents. I certainly think the characters doing this should be VR1 at a minimum. The child would be a fresh level 3 and instead of buying lineage characters you would buy lineage slots. These slots could be used for linage system rolled characters or additional characters, but the initial 8 slots would not be allowed for lineage characters (and perhaps for PvP balance a separate cyrodil for lineage characters (to separate powerful passives combinations from impacting balance in non lineage cyrodil).

Absolutely love this idea and yeah 1k crowns per lineage spot would be a great price and this would eliminate the need for purchasable character slots.

Oh and one last thing....This is what happens when you cross an Argonian and a Khajiit...

Gidorick

Interesting @Parrotbrain. I didn't consider that at all!

I thought Lyris Titanborn was a Nord... and that her Giant's Blood was kind of like the whole "Dragonborn dragon-blood" thing from Skyrim. Both her mother and father were Nords, but her father was from a specific tribe. Same race, different tribe. Genetics work more like ours do.

Or is Titanborn a separate race from Nords?

Parrotbrain

They explicitly mentioned that her father has the blood of giants, and several mentions get made of Lyris having the blood of giants as well... there is a another lorebook that says that giants are also from Atmora and diverged from Nords long ago so it is not impossible that they could interbreed. I will link the title of the book when I have looked it up

Faugaun

Oh I forgot ....we need to bring the charisma system into this as a skill tree where you get charismatic skills (perhaps you can unlock this skill line once you beat the game

kill Molag bal and become the hero of Tamriel

, then you can do public speaking events networking with kings and generals (via charisma quests) maybe it will be a world skill and unique like ww/vampire? Or maybe it could be more like a craft skill? Some passives could be reduced vendor prices, the ability to shortcut on some quests (like intimidate and pursuede), umm an additional rider training each day. Decreased aggro circle on some mobs (because you seem friendly). I dunno this would need more ideas to flush it out but there's an outline.

Anyways the last passive in the charisma tree could be lineage, essentially you have become so popular from your good genetics that you can mate with another lineage character and the outcome will almost certainly be someone who is notable and thus rises above the normal citizens (to player controlled status).

Edit: It also could be implemented undaunted style...Maybe title the tree "Socialite".

Parrotbrain

The book I mentiod on giants in an earlier post is called "Giants: A Discourse" and is found in "The World and its creatures" section of eidetic memory. An interesting read.

Gidorick

I love the ideas @Faugaun, the only problem is, the difficulty involved with creating new models for the characters. Each character model is unique to its race. It would take a considerable amount of work, and a complete retooling of the character creation tool to build character models from a set of standards and not have specific models for each race.

Now... using your idea and simplifying it ZOS could have the offspring take the character model of the mother and allow the player to apply the racial variations of Skin color, hair style, hair color, eye color, head marking, and body marking to THAT character model. This would, of course, require some testing and tweaking of the system to make sure the variations worked. Perhaps the skins of the Khajiit and Argonian might not be able to be applied to other Race's character mesh but things like hairstyles certainly could.

This would cause us to end up with things like a character with a Bosmer Mother and an Argonian Father looking like:

As cool as this could be I don't know if it would be "elder scrolls" enough for ZOS to even consider. We don't have Nords with Khajiit manes or anything like that in any other Elder Scrolls game, so I could see that being an issue from the "lore" standpoint.

Gidorick

Parrotbrain wrote: »

The book I mentiod on giants in an earlier post is called "Giants: A Discourse" and is found in "The World and its creatures" section of eidetic memory. An interesting read.

That was a good read. However, the text asserts that Nords and Giants are both derivations of the Atmorans. I'm not convinced that Lyris has Giant blood in the same way Agronak gro-Malog was Half-Imperial. I'm thinking the Giant's Blood is simply how her father's tribe was perceived by other Nords. They are so much larger that they appear to be as giants... so they must have Giant's Blood flowing through their veins.

That's just my take on it though.

Giants: A Discourse on the Imperial Library

Faugaun

Gidorick wrote: »

I love the ideas @Faugaun, the only problem is, the difficulty involved with creating new models for the characters. Each character model is unique to its race. It would take a considerable amount of work, and a complete retooling of the character creation tool to build character models from a set of standards and not have specific models for each race.

Now... using your idea and simplifying it ZOS could have the offspring take the character model of the mother and allow the player to apply the racial variations of Skin color, hair style, hair color, eye color, head marking, and body marking to THAT character model. This would, of course, require some testing and tweaking of the system to make sure the variations worked. Perhaps the skins of the Khajiit and Argonian might not be able to be applied to other Race's character mesh but things like hairstyles certainly could.

This would cause us to end up with things like a character with a Bosmer Mother and an Argonian Father looking like:

As cool as this could be I don't know if it would be "elder scrolls" enough for ZOS to even consider. We don't have Nords with Khajiit manes or anything like that in any other Elder Scrolls game, so I could see that being an issue from the "lore" standpoint.

I dunno, look at the game Spore and its character creator, I remember it having an interesting way of dealing with "traits", for instance skin can easily be reskinned, presence/absence of a tail, easy ...spikey things ...drag and drop spikes where you like and it attaches tangent to the body. Hair seems easy but then you have styles like the khajiit with dreads that currently are not well merged....you certainly would want to keep the bar high regarding the graphics perhaps a lightweight user friendly 3d modeller, where your genetics enable or disable the available options for use in the builder. I dunno it would be pretty complicated on the graphics side...the genetics side would be a long but not difficult script.

It would be fabulously cool though!

Faugaun

I want khajiit ears and orc fangs on this model ...and maybe a khajiit nose lol

Gidorick

Faugaun wrote: »

I want khajiit ears and orc fangs on this model ...and maybe a khajiit nose lol

lol. That's another reason not to allow that kind of "mixing" Keeping the base model one of the core 10 models would keep people from making... abominations.

Faugaun

Gidorick wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

I want khajiit ears and orc fangs on this model ...and maybe a khajiit nose lol

lol. That's another reason not to allow that kind of "mixing" Keeping the base model one of the core 10 models would keep people from making... abominations.

Hey not everyone can be pretty...but they can still be notable, take tyrion lannister for example. I think typically players go for aesthetically pleasing but I could definantly see some interesting abominations on the rp side...

If you did a lineage skill line, you could make it so that ring of mara'd players could also mix or some way to unlock different mixes kinda like the provisioning tiers where its 9 points to unlock full mixing...ohh ohhh!!!! Idea!!!

Ok, you can get a skill line for lineage...

It would only have one skill in the tree and it would be ranked 0-9 skill points. Skill points in the passive would not be reallocatable, so if you choose to go this route you will permenantly reduce your skill point pool by up to 9.

What do you get in exchange for these nonrefundable skill points? You get unlocks for various interbreeding!

So the 9 tiers refer to the 9 races that you could mix with...the lower the tier (the fewer so required) the more closely related that race is to yours (the reason it is cheaper). Here's the kicker you must have a character of both races that has unlocked the appropriate mix capability in order to create the character.

So say Argonian and Breton are most distant to each other. Then they will be the 9th point on eachothers skill, If I wanted to mix them then I would need a level 50 of each, and the lineage skill lines on both unlocked tomrank 9 and it would cost 18 nonrefundable skill points. In exchange I could now create both Bretons (with some argonian traits unlocked) or argonians (with some Breton traits unlocked). Additionally I could mix and match Breton and Argonian passives.

Note: It wasn't stated but in order to have an imperial to unlock anything you would need the imperial edition. Also if say you made an argonian that was Breton secondary ...the you would be associated with the primary race's faction...unless of course you had the explorers pack.

To implement it this way though it would require zos increased the number of character slots (either for a fee or free).

Gidorick

hmm... interesting idea with the skill-line. So if you have a level 50 Breton and a level 50 Nord they would both need 1 or 2 skill points in the tree to be able to breed with one another but if the Breton would want to be able to breed with an Argonian, both would need to spend 9 skill points in order to breed with one another.

So a Breton would have a "Generic Compatibility Skill" that looked something like this:

1 Skill Point: Imperial
2 Skill Points: Nord
3 Skill Points: Redguard
4 Skill Points: Altmer
5 Skill Points: Bosmer
6 Skill Points: Dunmer
7 Skill Points: Orsimer
8 Skill Points: Khajiit
9 Skill Points: Argonian

What would an Argonian's GC skill look like? I would think they would be the 9th skill point for ALL races, so maybe if you want to mix a Bosmer with an Argonian you need a Bosmer with level 9 GC and an Argonian with level 4 GC.

I really like the concept behind this idea but I think it would be too much to ask players to spend upwards of 9 skill points in skills that don't actually benefit THAT player.

Personally I would prefer the requirement to be as follows:

• A male character that is level 50
• A female character that is level 50
• A Progeny character slot

Progeny character slots must be purchased in the crown store for 2000 Crowns. Prior to B2P I would have been more open to a skill line for this concept but now I try to monetize the suggestions. Pretty much any content that is added to ESO should be able to bring money in for ZOS. Requiring 2 characters at level 50, PLUS a skill tree to be unlocked by each character, PLUS Crown Store Progeny Character Slot purchase seems like too much to require.

Gidorick

I updated the OP with some of the ideas discussed in the thread, including using the hair color, skin color, eye color and hairstyles to "mix" the races.

MercyKilling

AshySamurai wrote: »

One more - why you demand two characters with different sex? There are no restrictions on different forms of love in Tamriel.

While very true...the emotion of love can be felt by anyone, for anyone....biologically, it takes a male and female to reproduce.

Also, Argonians lay eggs, therefore are restricted to only reproducing with other Argonians. Also, cloaca.

Gidorick

MercyKilling wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

One more - why you demand two characters with different sex? There are no restrictions on different forms of love in Tamriel.

While very true...the emotion of love can be felt by anyone, for anyone....biologically, it takes a male and female to reproduce.

Also, Argonians lay eggs, therefore are restricted to only reproducing with other Argonians. Also, cloaca.

Also Argonians don't receive their gender until their Naming Day, after their birth... there are some concessions being made in the concept for homogeny.

Gidorick

I made a mixed race concept with the mother of a Khajiit and father of a Bosmer. This would require the adornments of either race to be used. I think that would be a good idea but certain racial adornments would have to be reworked for Men/Mer/Beast crossover, such as the Argonian facial horns.

Heromofo

Gidorick wrote: »

That's what's holding this Genre back @Pknm12.... The never's and the cant's. Every MMO ends up being a copy of everything that came before.

Exactly this push the boundaries but also remember if another game does something does not mean you cannot as well.

LMar

All races except Argonians/Hist came from the Ehlnofey so in theory could reproduce. The Hist came from their own world in a plane of Oblivion that got destroyed in the war between the Ehlnofey and parts of that world ended up as Black Marsh in Tamriel with the remaining Hist on them. Then the Hist created the Argonians.

Even now there are some relatives of the Hist in Oblivion. E.g.

in the Infernal City novels there are some trees that resemble the Hist in Clavicus Vile's realm and they were the ones that got summoned/helped in bringing Umbriel into Nirn. In fact these trees had help from a rogue Hist that helped the city come into Nirn

Gidorick

LMar wrote: »

All races except Argonians/Hist came from the Ehlnofey so in theory could reproduce. The Hist came from their own world in a plane of Oblivion that got destroyed in the war between the Ehlnofey and parts of that world ended up as Black Marsh in Tamriel with the remaining Hist on them. Then the Hist created the Argonians.

Even now there are some relatives of the Hist in Oblivion. E.g.

in the Infernal City novels there are some trees that resemble the Hist in Clavicus Vile's realm and they were the ones that got summoned/helped in bringing Umbriel into Nirn. In fact these trees had help from a rogue Hist that helped the city come into Nirn

Oh I agree that argonians couldn't reproduce with current lore.... but they couldn't let all races BUT argonian interbreed. Concessions would have to be made and there could be some wobbly reason added for the half breed like...

Maybe the argonian half breed wasn't a result of interbreeding but was a result of inter-rearing

Argonian mother-Other race father: the father mixed his blood with the hist sap that the baby argonian consumed on naming day. The progeny looks argonian but has traits of another race.

Argonian father-other race mother: The mother ingested Hist sap while she was pregnant with child. The progeny looks like the mother but has argonian traits.

The mother/father combination would solely be to keep it in line with the other races phylogenetic mechanics.

LMar

Gidorick wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

All races except Argonians/Hist came from the Ehlnofey so in theory could reproduce. The Hist came from their own world in a plane of Oblivion that got destroyed in the war between the Ehlnofey and parts of that world ended up as Black Marsh in Tamriel with the remaining Hist on them. Then the Hist created the Argonians.

Even now there are some relatives of the Hist in Oblivion. E.g.

in the Infernal City novels there are some trees that resemble the Hist in Clavicus Vile's realm and they were the ones that got summoned/helped in bringing Umbriel into Nirn. In fact these trees had help from a rogue Hist that helped the city come into Nirn

Oh I agree that argonians couldn't reproduce with current lore.... but they couldn't let all races BUT argonian interbreed. Concessions would have to be made and there could be some wobbly reason added for the half breed like...

Maybe the argonian half breed wasn't a result of interbreeding but was a result of inter-rearing

Argonian mother-Other race father: the father mixed his blood with the hist sap that the baby argonian consumed on naming day. The progeny looks argonian but has traits of another race.

Argonian father-other race mother: The mother ingested Hist sap while she was pregnant with child. The progeny looks like the mother but has argonian traits.

The mother/father combination would solely be to keep it in line with the other races phylogenetic mechanics.

Hist sap is so crazy that that might work. After all it can create new things..