Should They Change Khajiit Racial Passives? 1.6 changes.

firstdecan

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

IMO Carnage could be changed to something like "Feline Grace", giving 4% weapon and spell crit and reducing fall damage by 50%.

How about the full 6% crit (spell and weapon) and the 50% reduce in fall damage.. since most of the time, fall damage is OOC (out of combat).

I agree with the fall damage reduction, except ZoS needs to include an ability called "buttered toast" that a player can cast on a Khajiit to negate it.

Gyudan

You picked a race that works best for stamina and are now complaining about its effectiveness for magicka DPS roles.
The situation would have been exactly the same if you had been a redguard or a bosmer: their bonuses don't fit your playstyle either but it doesn't mean that they aren't strong when using a setup that fits the race.

6% Weapon crit is probably the strongest passive in the game, especially now that it's harder to reach high crit (items sets reduced from 4 to 3.2%). If you want a perfect caster, play breton or altmer.

Erock25

Gyudan wrote: »

You picked a race that works best for stamina and are now complaining about its effectiveness for magicka DPS roles.
The situation would have been exactly the same if you had been a redguard or a bosmer: their bonuses don't fit your playstyle either but it doesn't mean that they aren't strong when using a setup that fits the race.

6% Weapon crit is probably the strongest passive in the game, especially now that it's harder to reach high crit (items sets reduced from 4 to 3.2%). If you want a perfect caster, play breton or altmer.

I have two issues with this comment. The first is that 1.6 is changing how certain classes interact with stamina and/or magicka builds, so what could have been an optimal build beforehand may now be less than optimal. Second issue is that weapon crit only translates into about a 2:1 ratio into DPS. 6% crit equals around 3% DPS increase and it actually provides less of a bonus the higher your crit already is. 10% stamina bonus similarly gives DPS at a 2:1 ratio so 10% stamina equals around 5% greater DPS but also gets more powerful the more stamina you have.

LtCrunch

Erock25 wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

No.

If you're going to be useless like that, you should probably take your guild advertisement out of your sig. It looks bad for all of you.

The reasons are obvious, I'm not going to take my time to address such a selfish & asinine request. So my feedback for the idea is simply "no". Not good enough for you? I don't care.

Sacadon

@Araxleon, given what you know now, if starting from scratch which race would you choose for a magicka NB in 1.6 world?

Saw your take on the racials, just couldn't tell which one you think is best for magicka NB (assume ganker style).

Samadhi

Aeratus wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

You have GOT to be kidding me. You are QQing about one of the more decent races while Argonian were the worst and then had the only decent racial NERFED.

Please go away and be thankful for the racials you have.

Argonians have had their heyday tho. The potion racial of Argonians effectively gave them +3% crit (magicka or stamina, your pick), and +5 damage (spell or weapon, your pick), because the top dps builds all used 3x potion cooldown glyphs.
...

Wasn't the Khajiit heyday back around Beta and launch when a bunch of people rolled Khajiit just for the bonuses to crit damage and crit rate which were then later nerfed down to just weapon crit in order to balance Khajiit with the other races?

That seems quite similar to the Argonians actually; except, in the "Argonian heyday," they only had one viable build to synergize their passive with, and now they have none.

Erock25

Samadhi wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

You have GOT to be kidding me. You are QQing about one of the more decent races while Argonian were the worst and then had the only decent racial NERFED.

Please go away and be thankful for the racials you have.

Argonians have had their heyday tho. The potion racial of Argonians effectively gave them +3% crit (magicka or stamina, your pick), and +5 damage (spell or weapon, your pick), because the top dps builds all used 3x potion cooldown glyphs.
...

Wasn't the Khajiit heyday back around Beta and launch when a bunch of people rolled Khajiit just for the bonuses to crit damage and crit rate which were then later nerfed down to just weapon crit in order to balance Khajiit with the other races?

That seems quite similar to the Argonians actually; except, in the "Argonian heyday," they only had one viable build to synergize their passive with, and now they have none.

IMO you can't compare BETA and the 'the entirety that the game has been live.' Saying khajit had their heyday in BETA is basically saying that they have never had a heyday.

seanvwolf

You decided to roll a Khajiit to use a magicka build. Don't you think you are asking much for those who actually rolled a Khajiit for the weapon damage passives?

Samadhi

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

You have GOT to be kidding me. You are QQing about one of the more decent races while Argonian were the worst and then had the only decent racial NERFED.

Please go away and be thankful for the racials you have.

Argonians have had their heyday tho. The potion racial of Argonians effectively gave them +3% crit (magicka or stamina, your pick), and +5 damage (spell or weapon, your pick), because the top dps builds all used 3x potion cooldown glyphs.
...

Wasn't the Khajiit heyday back around Beta and launch when a bunch of people rolled Khajiit just for the bonuses to crit damage and crit rate which were then later nerfed down to just weapon crit in order to balance Khajiit with the other races?

That seems quite similar to the Argonians actually; except, in the "Argonian heyday," they only had one viable build to synergize their passive with, and now they have none.

IMO you can't compare BETA and the 'the entirety that the game has been live.' Saying khajit had their heyday in BETA is basically saying that they have never had a heyday.

It seems pretty close to saying Argonians had a heyday though.
Cannot remember Argonians being labeled as overpowered or even being considered to excel (except maybe at swimming) at any point; the potion synergy was nice, but it was also basically all they had.

Argonians had a halfway decent passive that got changed leaving them with pretty much nothing.
Khajiit had a passive that was deemed overpowered and was reduced, leaving them with build synergies with Stamina builds.

Would be fine with them making Robust (Health Recovery) more worthwhile for Khajiit and Nords (since both races share the same passive).
Would also be fine with them making Stealthy better for Khajiit and Bosmer (since both races share the same passive).
Carnage was already modified due to previous issues with it.

To me, Carnage is roughly in the range of Altmer Elemental Talent (only good for some class skills and one weapon type -- Destruction staff) or Dunmer Flame Talent (only good for 2 Classes' skills and one type of Destruction Staff).

Would like to see Sorcerer receive Stamina skills to better synergize with Khajiit racials; however, Sorcerer still has more options as a Khajiit to maximize Carnage than a Nightblade has as an Altmer or a Dunmer to maximize their Elemental damage racials.

Would not roll up an Argonian for anything other than novelty factor though.

If any Race has cause to appeal for passive changes, it is definitely Argonian.

Erock25

Samadhi wrote: »

Cannot remember Argonians being labeled as overpowered or even being considered to excel (except maybe at swimming) at any point; the potion synergy was nice, but it was also basically all they had.

That potion passive was very strong when you break down the numbers. Probably stronger than any one single passive. I'd go as far as to say that if you were willing to spend tons of money on potions that it made argonians the best race in the game.

Samadhi wrote: »

If any Race has cause to appeal for passive changes, it is definitely Argonian.

As of 1.6, I can not say that I disagree with you. Doesn't mean giving khajit spell critical to go along with their weapon critical would make them overpowered compared to other races by a long shot, though.

Samadhi

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Cannot remember Argonians being labeled as overpowered or even being considered to excel (except maybe at swimming) at any point; the potion synergy was nice, but it was also basically all they had.

That potion passive was very strong when you break down the numbers. Probably stronger than any one single passive. I'd go as far as to say that if you were willing to spend tons of money on potions that it made argonians the best race in the game.
...

It was also the only passive in game that required players to make extra effort (through crafting potions) or spend extra gold (through buying potions) to make use of it at all.
Did not see many people reroll to Argonian due to being the "best race in the game." Niche race for niche build.

Erock25 wrote: »

...

Samadhi wrote: »

If any Race has cause to appeal for passive changes, it is definitely Argonian.

As of 1.6, I can not say that I disagree with you. Doesn't mean giving khajit spell critical to go along with their weapon critical would make them overpowered compared to other races by a long shot, though.

Would be fine with them cutting the bonus in half and giving half the current bonus to Weapon critical and half to Spell critical.
If they do change it, this will be the most likely approach.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Aeratus wrote: »

Argonians have had their heyday tho. The potion racial of Argonians effectively gave them +3% crit (magicka or stamina, your pick), and +5 damage (spell or weapon, your pick), because the top dps builds all used 3x potion cooldown glyphs.

There's never been an Argonian "heyday," and the idea that such a thing would deserve to end is even more ridiculous since all racial passives should provide benefits to various playstyles at all times. Remember: Argonians themselves only had +15% potion effectiveness. To get that +30% more, you had to be a Nightblade, not any other class. To use potions quicker, you had to use up your three jewelry enchants, forgoing all other options. Lastly, you had to have deep pockets -- the only racial (and passive type) in the game tied directly to your gold. These were the trade-offs that mitigated Argonians and potion usage from being OP, and which made the race pretty interesting.

Aeratus

Samadhi wrote: »

It was also the only passive in game that required players to make extra effort (through crafting potions) or spend extra gold (through buying potions) to make use of it at all.
Did not see many people reroll to Argonian due to being the "best race in the game." Niche race for niche build.

Obviously, most people who rerolled chars went to Dunmer DK, rather than anything else. But anyways, my earlier comment that Argonians had they heyday was intentionally provocative (and the key was that this was talking about the past, not the future). But in general I'd agree that Argonians need a boost going into 1.6.

Just to be clear, the +3% gain in crit (potion gives 20% crit, and 15% more of that is 3%) and +5 gain in weapon/spell damage obviously did NOT make Argonians better dps than Dunmers/Altmers for magicka and Redguards/Imperials for stamina. Just wanted to say that it wasn't a bad passive. Its value was that it "worked" with different builds, and all types of situations (stamina dps, magicka dps, pvp builds (tripots), vet DSA tanks (tripots)).

And the fact remains that there are reasonable (commonly played) builds where racials offer 0 bonus. Khajiit magicka sorc is probably the most common example. In fact, Khajiit magicka sorc is probably the worst overall race-build combination in the game and it's no wonder people have been complaining.

IcyDeadPeople

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

L2P, get better gear, think about what skills you use and the passives. If you are seriously depending on racial passives to be "better" than the next player then just wow.....

IMO Arax is one of the top PVP players on NA server. He's speaking from a lot of experience testing different build concepts.

I'd agree with you though that there are a number of specific builds that don't work for various races. Hope we might see future buffs for some of the races that are less compatible with most builds (Argonian, Khajiit)

Samadhi

Aeratus wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

It was also the only passive in game that required players to make extra effort (through crafting potions) or spend extra gold (through buying potions) to make use of it at all.
Did not see many people reroll to Argonian due to being the "best race in the game." Niche race for niche build.

Obviously, most people who rerolled chars went to Dunmer DK, rather than anything else. But anyways, my earlier comment that Argonians had they heyday was intentionally provocative (and the key was that this was talking about the past, not the future). But in general I'd agree that Argonians need a boost going into 1.6.

Just to be clear, the +3% gain in crit (potion gives 20% crit, and 15% more of that is 3%) and +5 gain in weapon/spell damage obviously did NOT make Argonians better dps than Dunmers/Altmers for magicka and Redguards/Imperials for stamina. Just wanted to say that it wasn't a bad passive. Its value was that it "worked" with different builds, and all types of situations (stamina dps, magicka dps, pvp builds (tripots), vet DSA tanks (tripots)).

And the fact remains that there are reasonable (commonly played) builds where racials offer 0 bonus. Khajiit magicka sorc is probably the most common example. In fact, Khajiit magicka sorc is probably the worst overall race-build combination in the game and it's no wonder people have been complaining.

My Khajiit is a Magicka Templar.
Was never able to justify rolling an Argonian though.

Already said that if Robust was buffed for both Khajiit and Nord, and Stealthy was buffed for both Khajiit and Bosmer would be cool with it.

Would personally be fine with ZOS committing to changing Carnage to be split in half across Weapon Critical and Spell Critical; however, recognize that it would nerf people who selected Khajiit as a melee combatant.

Personally just glad not to be in Argonian shoes.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Gyudan wrote: »

You picked a race that works best for stamina and are now complaining about its effectiveness for magicka DPS roles.
The situation would have been exactly the same if you had been a redguard or a bosmer: their bonuses don't fit your playstyle either but it doesn't mean that they aren't strong when using a setup that fits the race.

6% Weapon crit is probably the strongest passive in the game, especially now that it's harder to reach high crit (items sets reduced from 4 to 3.2%). If you want a perfect caster, play breton or altmer.

6% is far from the strongest passive in the game. It's basicaly equal to 3/2 critical set pieces on live. How much set bonuses do you get by having 10-12% extra stats? Usualy a a bit more than 2 attribute set pieces when you invest over 2K in an attribute. And this can scale even higher.

At best, I think attribute passives should be flat amounts instead of percentages. This would balance out those passives to put them in line with the other ones and races not investing in those particular attributes would have greater benefits out of those too.

Araxleon

High elf

Increases Max Magicka by 10%

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Mean post first (nice one next):

Wait, so fix it for you but screw over those who actually like it? Tough break dude, suck it up. Have you even looked at other races because your post makes me think no. I am a wood elf NB using a magicka build and it is devastating and will be even more so in 1.6. Wood Elf dude.....WOOD ELF.....have you seen the racial passives for wood elf? NOTHING to do with magicka. I min/max my character like crazy and still realize the racial passives don't make or break you. They are what they are. Nothing game breaking. L2P, get better gear, think about what skills you use and the passives. If you are seriously depending on racial passives to be "better" than the next player then just wow.....

Now that I got my more dickish comment out, here is a more constructive one:

I do not think it should change however do to the nature of the game with all the various skills and skill builds I think there should be an option to change race. Should only be allowed maybe once every 30 days or something. I know some people get all butt hurt about it but after thinking about it....who cares? If you change your race from khajit to altmer guess what? It doesn't affect me. You can redo morphs, skills, and points, so why not race? Would I change my race? No. But I know many people do because they were either misinformed when they started their character or just realized their original plan for the character wasn't working out and they found something better. It's your money not mine, so IMHO let a person change their race. But again, DO NOT CHANGE WHAT IS NOT BROKEN. Khajit is fine.

I would just like to state, I do not want it nerfed and buff in my favor.
also sooo many be are commenting yet I feel aren't true khajiit players I feel like alot of people in this thread "no offense to anyone" are looking at this from a third person perspective because not a single person has mentioned health recovery!? its pretty bad... and I have tried to make it work but out of many passives its one of the few that you really need to build for I want some good middle ground that being spell crit AND weapon crit also change the health recovery to something like *increased healing receive by (x%) when under 50% HP*

I am also a min/maxer, and I pride myself in one thing, min/maxing my magicka NB as a KHAJIIT and defeating many other is a straight up brawl, players who have completely better stats due to choosing a better race.

*Sypher, Jago, Aetcha* I have fought these people and they are amazing they play Magicka NB and have better HP,STAM and magicka and I manage to outright beat and tie with them. 1.6 IS making races important...which make me sad because in 1.5 they weren't.

Hell! I would take *stealth speed boost, less fall damage, reduce sneak speed cost* because even though its not my playstyle I would accept them because ATLEAST I can put a skillpoint in them.

Overall whatever the change is I would like to see people suggest some.

phew... I need a

Araxleon

Sacadon wrote: »

@Araxleon, given what you know now, if starting from scratch which race would you choose for a magicka NB in 1.6 world?

Saw your take on the racials, just couldn't tell which one you think is best for magicka NB (assume ganker style).

I will play my khajiit in 1.6 and it will be a magicka build.
I will try my best to kickass just as I do on live
but worst comes to worst I will either be forced into stam (I hate rerolling) or dust off my old high elf NB.

People may say to me my build is the cookie cutter NB blah blah blah (even though I made my magicka build) but games are about having fun and playing the way you want (even if its small) I play a khajiit because thats what I wanna play.
I have friends that rerolled in the past to make dumner DK and then became bored and made another class.

Sidenote - In 1.6 alot of people left DK, but odly enough the only people staying on DK and keeping it as there main are mostly non dumner.

RainfeatherUK

@Rial said everything I would have, that said I certainly think there is merit in the likelihood that racials will be tweaked.

At least give the game time to settle in its new iteration. The data gained from the shift in Race volume, post 1.6 and beyond, is likely going to be a bigger factor than anything now.

I really dont want to see the purpose/diverse meaning or quality of Racials being reduced to mediocrity when we can likely retain them without massacring the system with extreme alterations.

Iago

Leave the Khajiit alone

Sacadon

Araxleon wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

@Araxleon, given what you know now, if starting from scratch which race would you choose for a magicka NB in 1.6 world?

Saw your take on the racials, just couldn't tell which one you think is best for magicka NB (assume ganker style).

I will play my khajiit in 1.6 and it will be a magicka build.
I will try my best to kickass just as I do on live
but worst comes to worst I will either be forced into stam (I hate rerolling) or dust off my old high elf NB.

People may say to me my build is the cookie cutter NB blah blah blah (even though I made my magicka build) but games are about having fun and playing the way you want (even if its small) I play a khajiit because thats what I wanna play.
I have friends that rerolled in the past to make dumner DK and then became bored and made another class.

Sidenote - In 1.6 alot of people left DK, but odly enough the only people staying on DK and keeping it as there main are mostly non dumner.

Yeah I too rolled Khajit in the beginning and have been magicka NB for all but the first few months of the game. I probably should've just gone high elf but just had no idea at the time and was focused on the rouge style passives. Rerolling sucks especially having to start over with alliance ranks. I'm going to stick with it for now and possibly go stamina, but either way want to make sure it works well in group PvP situations. And who knows, maybe they'll fix some of the passive by year end. I'm not holding my breath though.

Araxleon

Iago wrote: »

Leave the Khajiit alone

Why? Thats a very blank comment.

Soulac

Kitty wants reduced fall dmg!

supernico

It's not only about Khajit, it's about all races. 1.6 kinda ruined many builds for many reasons, not only softcaps removal.

Kragorn

Araxleon wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Leave the Khajiit alone

Why? Thats a very blank comment.

Why?

Maybe because he's perfectly happy with the way it is and sees no point in changing it. God knows much of 1.6 fixed that which wasn't broken, this seems to be one that doesn't need fixing either, perhaps.

Brevity is to be commended, why take a paragraph to say what could be said in a few words?

Araxleon

Kragorn wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

Leave the Khajiit alone

Why? Thats a very blank comment.

Why?

Maybe because he's perfectly happy with the way it is and sees no point in changing it. God knows much of 1.6 fixed that which wasn't broken, this seems to be one that doesn't need fixing either, perhaps.

Brevity is to be commended, why take a paragraph to say what could be said in a few words?

I would just like to see someone a fellow khajiit explain to me how those passives are good in general.

grimsfield

Digging this thread back up because khajiit passives definitely feel weak now.

Crit chance is not that important as it stands because it is pretty easy these days to get your crit to near 50%.
Instead of crit chance, weapon power or even bonus crit damage would be far more useful.

Health regen is also basically useless in almost all areas of this game. With khajiits being geared toward stamina, Stamina regen would be much more useful.

Araxleon

I personally want the crit chance changed to crit damage increase (that would work for all specs)
and health recovery is not good

Varicite

Araxleon wrote: »

now hear me out.

After lots of testing in 1.6 and softcaps being removed I feel hit hard not my class, but my race

I play a magicka khajiit (yes I was aware of the passives and made this choice from the start but I was aware of softcaps which kept me balanced with others)

but in 1.6 softcaps were removed and I feel weaker compared to other races (I could reroll but I love my magicka khajiit) I know khajiit passives benefit stamina
builds very well but out of all classes it makes khajiit the only race with passives pushing you towards a specific playstyle
(right now I have 0 skill points in weapon crit because well im a caster, where if I was lets say redguard I atleast get stamina recovery)

All I ask is something that works for all playstyles

Current Khajiit Passives

30% Health recovery while in combat (I feel this needs to be changed its good but unlike other races if you arent spec'd into heath recovery its bad.)

Decrease stealth radius by 3.0 meters, Increased damage done while stealthed by 10% (I like this and I feel it works for all playstyles.)

Increase weapon crit by 6% (Its great, if your stamina...Maybe give spell crit also? or change it completely)

I would just like khajiit to feel strong for all playstyles like every other race.

Thanks for reading and good day. (If you disagree please tell me why with reasoning.)

Hi.

I'm an Argonian.

grimsfield

Varicite wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

now hear me out.

After lots of testing in 1.6 and softcaps being removed I feel hit hard not my class, but my race

I play a magicka khajiit (yes I was aware of the passives and made this choice from the start but I was aware of softcaps which kept me balanced with others)

but in 1.6 softcaps were removed and I feel weaker compared to other races (I could reroll but I love my magicka khajiit) I know khajiit passives benefit stamina
builds very well but out of all classes it makes khajiit the only race with passives pushing you towards a specific playstyle
(right now I have 0 skill points in weapon crit because well im a caster, where if I was lets say redguard I atleast get stamina recovery)

All I ask is something that works for all playstyles

Current Khajiit Passives

30% Health recovery while in combat (I feel this needs to be changed its good but unlike other races if you arent spec'd into heath recovery its bad.)

Decrease stealth radius by 3.0 meters, Increased damage done while stealthed by 10% (I like this and I feel it works for all playstyles.)

Increase weapon crit by 6% (Its great, if your stamina...Maybe give spell crit also? or change it completely)

I would just like khajiit to feel strong for all playstyles like every other race.

Thanks for reading and good day. (If you disagree please tell me why with reasoning.)

Hi.

I'm an Argonian.

Yes. Argonians need love too.