What is a "melee attack"

Phaedrus

I'm trying to figure out what is considered a "melee attack." The main reason for my inquiry is the ravager set. It's 5 piece bonus says "Your melee attacks have an 8% chance to increase Weapon Damage by 60 for 10 seconds" But I haven't been able to find a hard definition.



Are all stamina based abilities melee attacks? That doesn't seem right, a snipe or lethal arrow doesn't seem like a melee attack to me. Is it attacks that are below a certain range? Is it all weapon attacks? That doesn't seem likely because it would just say "weapon attacks"

So if anyone out there can provide a definition that would be awesome.

Roechacca

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

Kragorn

roechacca wrote: »

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

Staves and bows are ... ?

If I'm standing on the mobs toes I'm close but using a 'ranged' weapon, is that 'melee' and if so what is "close"?

Phaedrus

roechacca wrote: »

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

Ok, but how close? Not trying to be funny or cynical.

For instance, the whirlwind skill has two morphs, one has a 5m range and one has an 11m range. Does one count as a melee attack and the other not?

onlinegamer1

ZoS laziness strikes again.

Each skill (and its morphs) should have, as part of the skill description:

"Attack Type: Melee"
"Attack Type: Missile"
"Attack Type: Magic"

Melee is melee. Missile is reflectable. Magic is not reflectable.

Examples:
- Surprise Attack: Melee
- Lethal Arrow: Missile
- Velocious Curse: Magic

Simple.

CP5

I would agree with roechacca, but if this set functions like the Ashen Grip set then it could include a lot more. For the Ashen Grip I have had it proc off of restoration staff heavy attacks (vs close enemies) and even Streak (again, when hitting enemies that were close to me). So the best bet is all close ranged attacks but it could proc off of direct damage done in melee range.

C0pp3rhead

roechacca wrote: »

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

I think what he wants to know is this: does this apply to only light/heavy attacks? Or does it include any sort of close-range attack? Does it include abilities from the weapon skill trees? Does it include class skills that use magicka? For example, a templar's biting jabs used weapon crit instead of spellcrit for a long time (I think it still does). Is this considered a melee attack even though it uses magicka?

ZOS needs to get consistent with its terminology. The tooltips in this game are confusing.

Sallington

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZoS laziness strikes again.

Each skill (and its morphs) should have, as part of the skill description:

"Attack Type: Melee"
"Attack Type: Missile"
"Attack Type: Magic"

Melee is melee. Missile is reflectable. Magic is not reflectable.

Examples:
- Surprise Attack: Melee
- Lethal Arrow: Missile
- Velocious Curse: Magic

Simple.

ZOS mission statement: Give the player the least amount of information possible.

david.haypreub18_ESO

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZoS laziness strikes again.

Each skill (and its morphs) should have, as part of the skill description:

"Attack Type: Melee"
"Attack Type: Missile"
"Attack Type: Magic"

Melee is melee. Missile is reflectable. Magic is not reflectable.

Examples:
- Surprise Attack: Melee
- Lethal Arrow: Missile
- Velocious Curse: Magic

Simple.

Totally agree.

The tooltips need to give more information. How is someone new to the game supposed to figure these things out?

Phaedrus

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZoS laziness strikes again.

Each skill (and its morphs) should have, as part of the skill description:

"Attack Type: Melee"
"Attack Type: Missile"
"Attack Type: Magic"

Melee is melee. Missile is reflectable. Magic is not reflectable.

Examples:
- Surprise Attack: Melee
- Lethal Arrow: Missile
- Velocious Curse: Magic

Simple.

But what about a "Magic Missile" ?

Rook_Master

But then you get dumb stuff like how Caltrops count as melee and can proc melee abilities.

Sometimes I feel like they don't actually want us to know what's going on behind the screen.

AshySamurai

Yeah, it's a good question. A long time in a galaxy forum far far away... When we even didn't know about which skill use weapon or spell crit we thought about what is melee. Well, afaik all attack which range less than 8 meters is a melee. Not sure about Impulse and some 11 and 24 meters attacks.

Roechacca

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

I think what he wants to know is this: does this apply to only light/heavy attacks? Or does it include any sort of close-range attack? Does it include abilities from the weapon skill trees? Does it include class skills that use magicka? For example, a templar's biting jabs used weapon crit instead of spellcrit for a long time (I think it still does). Is this considered a melee attack even though it uses magicka?

ZOS needs to get consistent with its terminology. The tooltips in this game are confusing.

Ya ahhh ... Sum gray area here

AshySamurai

roechacca wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

I think what he wants to know is this: does this apply to only light/heavy attacks? Or does it include any sort of close-range attack? Does it include abilities from the weapon skill trees? Does it include class skills that use magicka? For example, a templar's biting jabs used weapon crit instead of spellcrit for a long time (I think it still does). Is this considered a melee attack even though it uses magicka?

ZOS needs to get consistent with its terminology. The tooltips in this game are confusing.

Ya ahhh ... Sum gray area here

Where is my LOL button when I need it so much! LOL, mate. It was far more actual almost a year ago.

Mortac

Sallington wrote: »

ZOS mission statement: Give the player the least amount of information possible.

It is rather infuriating. As a new player this game is a complete jungle due to lack of information and clarity on skills. No game should force you to dig around in forums to understand if a skill would be affected by something or not. It's a huge turnoff for new players and mighty frustrating for others.

And what's so sick about it all is that the devs spent years on developing the game, and yet they can't spend a day on making relevant tooltips.

Just do something about it, please!

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on BASHING AND SLANDEROUS COMMENTS]

C0pp3rhead

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

C0pp3rhead

Mortac wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

ZOS mission statement: Give the player the least amount of information possible.

It is rather infuriating. As a new player this game is a complete jungle due to lack of information and clarity on skills. No game should force you to dig around in forums to understand if a skill would be affected by something or not. It's a huge turnoff for new players and mighty frustrating for others.

You should tell them that, considering that new players are their revenue plan for the next 6 months.

As if they'd listen. They spent more time adding 'flavor' to tooltips in 1.6 than they actually clarified/explained anything.

AshySamurai

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

lolo_01b16_ESO

As I'm also interessted in the Ravager set I did some testing on pts. Thats what I found out:
Skills that cost magicka don't proc the set even when they are melee range (like the magicka morph of nb surprise attack).
Ranged skills from close distance don't proc the set.
Light / Heavy attacks with anything other than staves or bow can proc the set.
Charging to a target can proc the set.
Steel tornado doesn't proc the set even though the unmorphed version does, might be a bug.
Skills with multiple hits like rapid strikes just have 8% chance to proc every time you use them, not 8% chance on hit.

Kaizxen

AshySamurai wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

I don't think it's clear at all. The set bonus description doesn't say anything indicating that the spell can't be instant cast.

By my interpretation, the set bonus should apply to every spell in the game; instant, non-instant, or channeled, they're all being "cast."

C0pp3rhead

Kaizxen wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

I don't think it's clear at all. The set bonus description doesn't say anything indicating that the spell can't be instant cast.

By my interpretation, the set bonus should apply to every spell in the game; instant, non-instant, or channeled, they're all being "cast."

Exactly. Casting a spell is casting a spell - cast time or no. That's why I'm confused about it.

Roechacca

@ZOS_GinaBruno can we get some clarification on this one please ?

AshySamurai

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

As I'm also interessted in the Ravager set I did some testing on pts. Thats what I found out:
Skills that cost magicka don't proc the set even when they are melee range (like the magicka morph of nb surprise attack).
Ranged skills from close distance don't proc the set.
Light / Heavy attacks with anything other than staves or bow can proc the set.
Charging to a target can proc the set.
Steel tornado doesn't proc the set even though the unmorphed version does, might be a bug.
Skills with multiple hits like rapid strikes just have 8% chance to proc every time you use them, not 8% chance on hit.

Seems like melee range is only 8 meters. Did you tried impulse?

Kaizxen wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

I don't think it's clear at all. The set bonus description doesn't say anything indicating that the spell can't be instant cast.

By my interpretation, the set bonus should apply to every spell in the game; instant, non-instant, or channeled, they're all being "cast."

Well, for me it's pretty clear. You know what cast and channel means, right? Also, did you ever read skill description? Some of skills have cast time and it states in description. Or it describes as channeling spell.

danno8

AshySamurai wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

Funny thing is that all it needs is rewording so it is actually clear.

"...when using a magicka based skill with a cast time or channel time"
or
"...when using any magicka based skill"

Pretty sure it's the first one, but clarity is honestly pretty easy to achieve if you just think for a second. I think the issue is that it make sense to the developer who makes the item/condition, but they don't do very well at asking themselves "What will this mean to other people?"

AshySamurai

danno816_ESO wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

Funny thing is that all it needs is rewording so it is actually clear.

"...when using a magicka based skill with a cast time or channel time"
or
"...when using any magicka based skill"

Pretty sure it's the first one, but clarity is honestly pretty easy to achieve if you just think for a second. I think the issue is that it make sense to the developer who makes the item/condition, but they don't do very well at asking themselves "What will this mean to other people?"

I already said, it's pretty clear to me. Does it need to rewording? Don't know. No if you ask me. I'm fine with it if you need it.

C0pp3rhead

AshySamurai wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

AshySamurai wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It's pretty clear. Only spells that have cast/channel time.

Funny thing is that all it needs is rewording so it is actually clear.

"...when using a magicka based skill with a cast time or channel time"
or
"...when using any magicka based skill"

Pretty sure it's the first one, but clarity is honestly pretty easy to achieve if you just think for a second. I think the issue is that it make sense to the developer who makes the item/condition, but they don't do very well at asking themselves "What will this mean to other people?"

I already said, it's pretty clear to me. Does it need to rewording? Don't know. No if you ask me. I'm fine with it off you need it.

It needs rewording.

The problem is, all spells have a cast time or channel time. For those spells without a cast time, the tooltip reads: "Cast time: Instant".
So then my question is, "Why doesn't the set bonus just read +spell power?"
If your response is, "It only applies to spells with cast times or channel times,"
Then my response becomes, "But, all spells have a channel time or cast time listed on the tooltip. Some just read, Cast Time: Instant."
And we're back to the beginning.

On a deeper levvel, I think there's continued confusion because nobody's tested it yet. Simultaneously, many players do not trust that ZOS has set up combat systems in a consistent or predictable manner.

Phaedrus

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

As I'm also interessted in the Ravager set I did some testing on pts. Thats what I found out:
Skills that cost magicka don't proc the set even when they are melee range (like the magicka morph of nb surprise attack).
Ranged skills from close distance don't proc the set.
Light / Heavy attacks with anything other than staves or bow can proc the set.
Charging to a target can proc the set.
Steel tornado doesn't proc the set even though the unmorphed version does, might be a bug.
Skills with multiple hits like rapid strikes just have 8% chance to proc every time you use them, not 8% chance on hit.

Thanks, was helpful. I wonder though, since I'm a DK, will the stamina morphs of unstable flame and burning breath proc the set? Also, did you charge with s/b or 2h? I'm assuming it's the same for both but just curious.

I guess I need to get to testing myself, do you use an add-on that shows real-time weapon dmg and other stats?

@ZOS_GinaBruno I, like others, would appreciate some clarity in tool-tips for skills to show what type of attack the skill is classified as.

onlinegamer1

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It shouldn't affect anything in the game, because there are no "spells" in the game yet (not until Spellcrafting exists). Everything in the game is a "skill", not a "spell".

C0pp3rhead

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

This makes me think of the Soulshine 5 set bonus: +xx Spell Damage when casting or channeling a spell.

WTF does that mean? Is that any spell? Or just ones that have a cast/channel time?

It shouldn't affect anything in the game, because there are no "spells" in the game yet (not until Spellcrafting exists). Everything in the game is a "skill", not a "spell".

You mean an ability. Dual Wield is a skill. Steel Tornado is an ability. We have spell damage that affects our abilities, but no spells? Your logic is incorrect, sir.

I don't intend to bash spellmaking though. It should have been in the game already.

WraithAzraiel

Phaedrus wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Hand to hand close ranged attacks . Not ranged attacks

Ok, but how close? Not trying to be funny or cynical.

For instance, the whirlwind skill has two morphs, one has a 5m range and one has an 11m range. Does one count as a melee attack and the other not?

Close enough to do damage with a light/heavy attack with a non-bow non-stave weapon. I'm assuming that's ESO's definition of melee.

BBSooner

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

ZoS laziness strikes again.

Each skill (and its morphs) should have, as part of the skill description:

"Attack Type: Melee"
"Attack Type: Missile"
"Attack Type: Magic"

Melee is melee. Missile is reflectable. Magic is not reflectable.

Examples:
- Surprise Attack: Melee
- Lethal Arrow: Missile
- Velocious Curse: Magic

Simple.

I would also like something like this as a visual display. It caused a lot of confusion in beta/early release when people discovered that melee range class skills didn't use stamina. While this is not exactly the same subject matter I can imagine explicitly stating "what skills are considered what" would go a long way.