Should Talons Be Nerfed? - Why and Why Not.

Panda244

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Are you joking? On 1.5 you can stun break fear. Don't lie to win an argument. And once you stun break, you get CC immunity. I haven't tested this on 1.6, but I doubt ZOS would remove stun break ability from fear, else it would be too powerful as a hard CC.

You can still CC break Fear in 1,6, it now Fears three people and makes your character stop blocking while Feared, meaning it's essentially a death sentence.

lol over exaggeration much? A death sentence?! Let's analyze some scenarios. DKs have insane damage mitigation to begin with due to tank spells/skills/armor, so going into a fight your going to most likely be buffed before feared which will negate most damage that occurs in the 1 sec it takes for you to break the fear, raise shield, and begin counter attack.oh and you most likely have 3500-4k+ hp on top of that. if your a sorc, in 1 sec, you break fear, dodge roll and BE to safety, if needed, or counter attack. If your a Templar you break fear and cast blazing shield and counter attack. If your a night blade you break fear and dodge roll away using cloak to stealth, if needed, or counter attack. Do you see a pattern?

I'm not buying your instant death sentence argument. And who cares if it fears three people. All three people can stun break and obliterate the caster in a counter attack.

I'm sorry, but in its current form, talons provides much more utility than fear due to perma spam causing perma lock in place. No one can dodge roll away without stamina being depleted and becoming a sitting duck, or stun break talons. Heck someone earlier in the post said they couldn't even BE away while taloned (not sure if that's true but that's what he said). Talons accomplishes the following: It perma drains stamina to dodge rolling toons, doesn't allow for escape, and does damage too. Fear does none of that. I think if you ever play a NB you'll find fear, while its good, is also frustrating due to the reasons mentioned above. I use fear but I can tell u the effects of talons is far more advantageous.

Fear > Talons. My main is a Nightblade.

Once again, for like the thirteenth time.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

A good DK won't use Talons more than 2-3 times, a bad DK will spam it like Impulse. Talons does *** poor damage that can be easily healed through or countered with a damage shield, you roll dodge once, and you get away. If the DK chases you, roll dodge again, I can guarantee you unless the DK is a stamina build or an idiot he won't risk another Shield Charge to catch up to you, he'll likely flappity flap and walk to you, or flappity flap and retreat, depends on the amount of enemies.

Varicite

This entire debate is silly.

You can't compare NB Fear (hard cc, max 3 targets, adds snare + damage debuff) to Talons (soft cc, max 6 targets, up-front damage and DoT effect or damage debuff).

You can compare Talons to Encase, or maybe even Crippling Grasp, but that's about it.

Armitas

Varicite wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

You can't remove the upfront damage on talons. It costs 420 magicka to cast talons, if someone rolls out of it then it neither CC's them or damages them. You can't have a skill cost 420 magicka and do nothing. That doesn't even cover the invade cost just to reapply talons.

How would you justify Encase, then? You do know that it costs more than Talons to cast, right? And the "damage morph" still does less damage than Talons unmorphed?

Just curious why you can't remove the upfront damage from one, but it's totally cool for the other.

I don't justify it not doing damage.

The greater cost is difficult to evaluate due to sorcs internal cost reductions, recovery and magicka management skills along with the duration and range. As far as the damage amount I think their purposes and additional class synergies are different within the class trees, one is for kitting, the other for anti-kiting, tanking, and synergizing with the dual cast delay of deep breath for moderate dps.

The two are very difficult to compare beyond the nature of the root, but you should get something out the cast for either even if it's rolled out of.

Joy_Division

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

You are missing the point. When a NB casts fear, you *HAVE* to break the stun or you are defenseless. When a DK uses talons, I *don't* have to break it; I continue to both beat on the DK and defend myself just fine against her.

LegacyDM

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

You are missing the point. When a NB casts fear, you *HAVE* to break the stun or you are defenseless. When a DK uses talons, I *don't* have to break it; I continue to both beat on the DK and defend myself just fine against her.

No you are missing the point and just proved mine. When taloned you don't get cc immunity from "breaking a stun" cause there is no stun to break. A player is locked in place and beaten to death unless they dodge roll or have the tankiness to stand there and take it. I play a stabby stabby sneaky sneaky NB. I'm not a sword and board sap essence Veil of blades tank. I can't just stand there and shield block while rooted. I have to dodge and I can't dodge far enough or fast enough or multiple enough because you people keep talon spamming me to death. I don't know Cody, but I am experiencing the same exact thing as him. At least with fear, you get cc immunity and the chance to counter attack or escape.

Don't even try to compare the two skills because it's apples to oranges.

Panda244

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

You are missing the point. When a NB casts fear, you *HAVE* to break the stun or you are defenseless. When a DK uses talons, I *don't* have to break it; I continue to both beat on the DK and defend myself just fine against her.

No you are missing the point and just proved mine. When taloned you don't get cc immunity from "breaking a stun" cause there is no stun to break. A player is locked in place and beaten to death unless they dodge roll or have the tankiness to stand there and take it. I play a stabby stabby sneaky sneaky NB. I'm not a sword and board sap essence Veil of blades tank. I can't just stand there and shield block while rooted. I have to dodge and I can't dodge far enough or fast enough or multiple enough because you people keep talon spamming me to death. I don't know Cody, but I am experiencing the same exact thing as him. At least with fear, you get cc immunity and the chance to counter attack or escape.

Don't even try to compare the two skills because it's apples to oranges.

It's only apples to oranges if the idiot DK spamming talons wastes all his stamina to repeatedly shield charge you and talons spam you.

LegacyDM

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Are you joking? On 1.5 you can stun break fear. Don't lie to win an argument. And once you stun break, you get CC immunity. I haven't tested this on 1.6, but I doubt ZOS would remove stun break ability from fear, else it would be too powerful as a hard CC.

You can still CC break Fear in 1,6, it now Fears three people and makes your character stop blocking while Feared, meaning it's essentially a death sentence.

lol over exaggeration much? A death sentence?! Let's analyze some scenarios. DKs have insane damage mitigation to begin with due to tank spells/skills/armor, so going into a fight your going to most likely be buffed before feared which will negate most damage that occurs in the 1 sec it takes for you to break the fear, raise shield, and begin counter attack.oh and you most likely have 3500-4k+ hp on top of that. if your a sorc, in 1 sec, you break fear, dodge roll and BE to safety, if needed, or counter attack. If your a Templar you break fear and cast blazing shield and counter attack. If your a night blade you break fear and dodge roll away using cloak to stealth, if needed, or counter attack. Do you see a pattern?

I'm not buying your instant death sentence argument. And who cares if it fears three people. All three people can stun break and obliterate the caster in a counter attack.

I'm sorry, but in its current form, talons provides much more utility than fear due to perma spam causing perma lock in place. No one can dodge roll away without stamina being depleted and becoming a sitting duck, or stun break talons. Heck someone earlier in the post said they couldn't even BE away while taloned (not sure if that's true but that's what he said). Talons accomplishes the following: It perma drains stamina to dodge rolling toons, doesn't allow for escape, and does damage too. Fear does none of that. I think if you ever play a NB you'll find fear, while its good, is also frustrating due to the reasons mentioned above. I use fear but I can tell u the effects of talons is far more advantageous.

Fear > Talons. My main is a Nightblade.

Once again, for like the thirteenth time.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

A good DK won't use Talons more than 2-3 times, a bad DK will spam it like Impulse. Talons does *** poor damage that can be easily healed through or countered with a damage shield, you roll dodge once, and you get away. If the DK chases you, roll dodge again, I can guarantee you unless the DK is a stamina build or an idiot he won't risk another Shield Charge to catch up to you, he'll likely flappity flap and walk to you, or flappity flap and retreat, depends on the amount of enemies.

Once again for the 13th time you don't get it. You don't just dodge roll once and get away. The aoe range and ability to chase after an opponent causes perma lock. As stated above I sm not s sap essence tank. I'm stabby stabby sneaky sneaky and no matter how many times I dodqge roll I keep getting spammed to death. Every damn DK I encounter seems to have more resource pool to spam talons then I have the ability to dodge and get away. I'm with Cody on this one.

Panda244

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Not sure how it is on 1.6 but on 1.5 you can anti stun

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.

• Mass Hysteria (morph): This ability now hits up to three targets. These targets will be affected by fear for three seconds, then affected by Minor Maim debuff and have their movement speed reduced for 4 seconds.

Please tell me you were joking? I'd trade Talons for Fear on my Dragonknight any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade, and any decade of the century.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.]

Um fear provides cc immunity and costs a ton. One time deal. Talons can be spammed forever and combined with another immunity ft ranting effect.

Are you joking? There is no defense against fear and you are completely incapable of defending yourself when under its effect.

Go ahead and talon spam me...I don't care because unlike what is being erroneously reported in this thread it is not cheap, it is not a high damage, I can still block, attack, and cast spells when under its effects.

Are you joking? On 1.5 you can stun break fear. Don't lie to win an argument. And once you stun break, you get CC immunity. I haven't tested this on 1.6, but I doubt ZOS would remove stun break ability from fear, else it would be too powerful as a hard CC.

You can still CC break Fear in 1,6, it now Fears three people and makes your character stop blocking while Feared, meaning it's essentially a death sentence.

lol over exaggeration much? A death sentence?! Let's analyze some scenarios. DKs have insane damage mitigation to begin with due to tank spells/skills/armor, so going into a fight your going to most likely be buffed before feared which will negate most damage that occurs in the 1 sec it takes for you to break the fear, raise shield, and begin counter attack.oh and you most likely have 3500-4k+ hp on top of that. if your a sorc, in 1 sec, you break fear, dodge roll and BE to safety, if needed, or counter attack. If your a Templar you break fear and cast blazing shield and counter attack. If your a night blade you break fear and dodge roll away using cloak to stealth, if needed, or counter attack. Do you see a pattern?

I'm not buying your instant death sentence argument. And who cares if it fears three people. All three people can stun break and obliterate the caster in a counter attack.

I'm sorry, but in its current form, talons provides much more utility than fear due to perma spam causing perma lock in place. No one can dodge roll away without stamina being depleted and becoming a sitting duck, or stun break talons. Heck someone earlier in the post said they couldn't even BE away while taloned (not sure if that's true but that's what he said). Talons accomplishes the following: It perma drains stamina to dodge rolling toons, doesn't allow for escape, and does damage too. Fear does none of that. I think if you ever play a NB you'll find fear, while its good, is also frustrating due to the reasons mentioned above. I use fear but I can tell u the effects of talons is far more advantageous.

Fear > Talons. My main is a Nightblade.

Once again, for like the thirteenth time.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

A good DK won't use Talons more than 2-3 times, a bad DK will spam it like Impulse. Talons does *** poor damage that can be easily healed through or countered with a damage shield, you roll dodge once, and you get away. If the DK chases you, roll dodge again, I can guarantee you unless the DK is a stamina build or an idiot he won't risk another Shield Charge to catch up to you, he'll likely flappity flap and walk to you, or flappity flap and retreat, depends on the amount of enemies.

Once again for the 13th time you don't get it. You don't just dodge roll once and get away. The aoe range and ability to chase after an opponent causes perma lock. As stated above I sm not s sap essence tank. I'm stabby stabby sneaky sneaky and no matter how many times I dodqge roll I keep getting spammed to death. Every damn DK I encounter seems to have more resource pool to spam talons then I have the ability to dodge and get away. I'm with Cody on this one.

One roll dodge in the right direction and immediately turning around gets me out of every Talons, sometimes the DK will shield charge me in the back, I break free, immediately roll dodge, and 90% of DKs stop chasing me. Maybe it's just bad luck for you guys

david.haypreub18_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

One roll dodge in the right direction and immediately turning around gets me out of every Talons, sometimes the DK will shield charge me in the back, I break free, immediately roll dodge, and 90% of DKs stop chasing me. Maybe it's just bad luck for you guys

If you're in anything other than medium armor, then you're going to be out of stamina after two roll doges and a break free. The DK now has you at his mercy.

Panda244

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

One roll dodge in the right direction and immediately turning around gets me out of every Talons, sometimes the DK will shield charge me in the back, I break free, immediately roll dodge, and 90% of DKs stop chasing me. Maybe it's just bad luck for you guys

If you're in anything other than medium armor, then you're going to be out of stamina after two roll doges and a break free. The DK now has you at his mercy.

I'm in Light Armor and I can roll 4 times... 3 times and CC break.... at least on my DK, on my NB I can roll indefinitely because Siphoning Attacks OP.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

One roll dodge in the right direction and immediately turning around gets me out of every Talons, sometimes the DK will shield charge me in the back, I break free, immediately roll dodge, and 90% of DKs stop chasing me. Maybe it's just bad luck for you guys

If you're in anything other than medium armor, then you're going to be out of stamina after two roll doges and a break free. The DK now has you at his mercy.

I'm in Light Armor and I can roll 4 times... 3 times and CC break.... at least on my DK, on my NB I can roll indefinitely because Siphoning Attacks OP.

Ok, so for the cost of 2 Talons and a charge, the DK has made you virtually out of stamina. You might have one roll left... he's pretty much at full, and he's damaged you with a shield charge and charging at you again. Can you see how the fight is very much now in his favour, since he now has superior resources, has done more damage, and has you almost out of stamina?

Animal_Mother

I have no problem with Talons. The problem is the inevitable Whip-spam that follows to set you off balance that's debilitating. Nothing should be done to fix this; it's just players properly using/planning their skill use.

Edit: What's next, telling me I can't follow up Wrecking Blow with Critical Charge and Execute?

I feel that every class should have a similar mechanic, properly using their skills. However, those combinations have already been taken away or in the progress of being taken away - Blazing Spear + Jabs, for example.

On the other hand - I'm not playing the forum game well so...:
I'll be missing Blinding Flashes - the only AOE CC Templars have that isn't an ultimate. So why should there be a skill like Talons and Fear? It makes me jealous that DKs and NBs will keep their AOE CC abilities and I lose mine. The only obvious solution is to take these skills away. If I can't have; you can't either. Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!

Panda244

Animal_Mother wrote: »

I have no problem with Talons. The problem is the inevitable Whip-spam that follows to set you off balance that's debilitating. Nothing should be done to fix this; it's just players properly using/planning their skill use.

Edit: What's next, telling me I can't follow up Wrecking Blow with Critical Charge and Execute?

I feel that every class should have a similar mechanic, properly using their skills. However, those combinations have already been taken away or in the progress of being taken away - Blazing Spear + Jabs, for example.

On the other hand - I'm not playing the forum game well so...:
I'll be missing Blinding Flashes - the only AOE CC Templars have that isn't an ultimate. So why should there be a skill like Talons and Fear? It makes me jealous that DKs and NBs will keep their AOE CC abilities and I lose mine. The only obvious solution is to take these skills away. If I can't have; you can't either. Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!

The loss of Flashes for a Templar really blows, they should of replaced a crappy skill NO ONE used, rather than a good skill that some people used, it's the same with NBs and Haste, Haste was a good skill, people used it, they replaced it, and left us with the still useless skill, Agony.

technohic

The time I run into a problem is usually a combination of things.

1. The fact you can get stacked a stun, a KD and still be rooted is kind of dumb. The hardest CC should overwrite the others and it should be limited to 1 to break out of.


2. Usually when a zerg train is coming; you have more than 1 DK spamming talon toward the front and whether it is them being perfectly in cadence or if its supposed to be possible to be rooted immediately after the break free before even doing a dodge roll animation or if it is the spam causing lag to where you are instantly rooted as soon as you try to roll or the ability is just not firing off; it is dumb. I know, 1 person should die to several, but when this is happening to your entire group, its not just a 1vX thing.

3. Related to number 2 probably but the cost for Retreating maneuvers should be lowered. You can use the new evasion from medium armor for yourself, but I think the AOE root should cost the same as the AOE counter. This is not to pick on DKs exactlyly; they just happen to be the only one really with the AOE root. FWIW; I feel like AOE abilities should be more expensive than single target ones in general and for some things that is the case but not always.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

All I ask for is CC immunity just like break free. The skill would still be useful just not overpowered like I think it is now. Sure, at least the person can fight back but most people are crazy to just go hit for hit with a DK. You won't win.

If you don't agree because you're a DK let me ask you this....How would you feel if as an NB I could back to back fear you and you couldn't do anything about it?

Panda244

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

All I ask for is CC immunity just like break free. The skill would still be useful just not overpowered like I think it is now. Sure, at least the person can fight back but most people are crazy to just go hit for hit with a DK. You won't win.

If you don't agree because you're a DK let me ask you this....How would you feel if as an NB I could back to back fear you and you couldn't do anything about it?

I'd run Immovable.

If you give Talons CC Immunity then it becomes useless, not useful, useless. You use it once, and then you can't stay close enough to the target to do any damage whatsoever because the longest ranged attack a Dragonknight has access to is 15m, and it does *** poor damage. Not to mention if you gave it Immunity, a DK spamming it in a zerg could grant Immunity to the entire zerg for 6 seconds and prevent them from being snared, stunned, rooted, etc etc. That would be exploited in a heartbeat.

It's not a hard CC, therefor, no Immunity, therefor, deal with it.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Panda244

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

LegacyDM

Panda244 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

I'm not a tank and consider myself a pretty good player. I find it extremely hard to believe you just dodge roll once and every thing is pitchy perfect ladidada like its a walk in the park. Either your lying, have an insanely low ping compared to the rest of us, or is specced as a sword and board tank using veil of blades sap essence combo. I imagine Cody is a fairly good player too and has the same exact problem as me, and one of the posted comments above from david.haypreub18_ESO suggested the same problem. I think it's insulting for you to tell us this is a L2P issue when DKs clearly have an iwin button.

I'm done fueling your insisting need on protecting your precious DK build. I'm out. Time to agree to disagree.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

Like I said, I'm just trying to play devils advocate here. I have no problem dealing with Talons or even DK's in general. I just know a lot of people have issues with the skill and I try to understand their point of view. I play NB as a highly mobile class so that's why I like shades and cloak. I generally don't tank with my NB, I like to attack a group of players, look for openings and weak targets, then ambush back and forth between targets. Heck, sometimes I'll be taloned and don't feel like wasting stamina and I'll just look for someone a few meters away and ambush him just to get away and assess my next move from there. Talon usually will still remain for a second but it usually never hurts me in the long run.

technohic

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

Like I said, I'm just trying to play devils advocate here. I have no problem dealing with Talons or even DK's in general. I just know a lot of people have issues with the skill and I try to understand their point of view. I play NB as a highly mobile class so that's why I like shades and cloak. I generally don't tank with my NB, I like to attack a group of players, look for openings and weak targets, then ambush back and forth between targets. Heck, sometimes I'll be taloned and don't feel like wasting stamina and I'll just look for someone a few meters away and ambush him just to get away and assess my next move from there. Talon usually will still remain for a second but it usually never hurts me in the long run.

What does dragon scales do to ambush? I'm guessing nothing since it is a spell but not a projectile. Sorry for the sidetrack as I just eclipsed a NB and it looked like he went to do an ambush or teleport or something and wound up knocking himself down. I find it hilarious when that stuff happens. That said; I really think the way some NBs fly around is cool and want to level one whenever they get rid of VR levels.

Sharkano

Talons does very minor damage. They have already nerfed it to hell and back. Complaining about it is like complaining about a fly -- it's buzzing is irritating, but that's it.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

technohic wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

Like I said, I'm just trying to play devils advocate here. I have no problem dealing with Talons or even DK's in general. I just know a lot of people have issues with the skill and I try to understand their point of view. I play NB as a highly mobile class so that's why I like shades and cloak. I generally don't tank with my NB, I like to attack a group of players, look for openings and weak targets, then ambush back and forth between targets. Heck, sometimes I'll be taloned and don't feel like wasting stamina and I'll just look for someone a few meters away and ambush him just to get away and assess my next move from there. Talon usually will still remain for a second but it usually never hurts me in the long run.

What does dragon scales do to ambush? I'm guessing nothing since it is a spell but not a projectile. Sorry for the sidetrack as I just eclipsed a NB and it looked like he went to do an ambush or teleport or something and wound up knocking himself down. I find it hilarious when that stuff happens. That said; I really think the way some NBs fly around is cool and want to level one whenever they get rid of VR levels.

It shouldn't do anything but normal melee damage. It's not a projectile. Did someone use a knockdown skill on him right when he landed?

xaraan

I just at think they should make talons cost more. Caster should run out of resources spamming it the same as the defender breaking it- difference being whoever has better reductions, regen, management.

Armitas

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

No you are missing the point and just proved mine. When taloned you don't get cc immunity from "breaking a stun" cause there is no stun to break. A player is locked in place and beaten to death unless they dodge roll or have the tankiness to stand there and take it. I play a stabby stabby sneaky sneaky NB.

Here is the other side of the fight. I have to stay on top of your toes at all times to keep you from stealthing away with speed. If you stealth away with speed neither magelight or detect pots will find you. If I am spamming talons, I am in a magicka build, if you are rolling away I am using stamina inefficiently to catch you and try to get talons to work.

Charge > Talons > Roll
Charge > Talons > Roll
Charge > Talons > Roll

If we had coolddowns and no voluntary CC removal I would catch you for a little bit, you would kite me for a little bit and we would all be happy. This is what our classes might experience in a traditional MMO. However in ESO neither the root or the kite are occurring until someone runs out of a resource. At which point people become unhappy because they are taking damage. But I should be able to lock you down and beat on you some. Right? Surely no one expects that their class should be untouchable just because they have chosen to be squishy for more dps.

Perhaps what is needed is a cooldown, but not a traditional one. If I talon you and you sit in it for 4 seconds, you become immune to talons for 4 seconds. You are only immune to talons. I can cast it on you and it will still damage you but it will not root you. This makes it so there is no cooldown on casting a skill but it does provide a cooldown on receiving certain effects from those skills. That would allow me to actually stop you from moving for a while, and allow you to actually escape for a while. I personally would consider that a talon buff rather than a nerf, because I value the ability to actually root someone more than the ability to continue to try to root someone over and over again with 2 casts per try.

Xupacabra

If you are a melee fighter talons help keep enemies close. Its really dificult play in close combat so in my opinion talons should have a buff also for melee fighter style.

Animal_Mother

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

Sure it can.

Look at the history of Blazing Shield and Bolt Escape. Or how Snipe, Reflective Scales and Wrecking Blow are now attracting attention. People don't want to change their fighting style to meet the threats of these skills so they start complaining on the forums about them. Some of us change - for example, my bow bar now includes Arrow Barrage to counter Reflective Scales. Talons is no different from these apparently "op" skills.

Panda244 wrote: »

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

It's probably not perfect, but the moment I notice Talons on my character, I'm going to block cast Blazing Shield, hopefully avoiding Whip. Wait out the 3.5 seconds w/o blocking subsequent attacks (and preserving my stamina) - I could care less with Blazing Shield up, if I'm off balance or not. Repeat.

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

I'm not a tank and consider myself a pretty good player. I find it extremely hard to believe you just dodge roll once and every thing is pitchy perfect ladidada like its a walk in the park. Either your lying, have an insanely low ping compared to the rest of us, or is specced as a sword and board tank using veil of blades sap essence combo. I imagine Cody is a fairly good player too and has the same exact problem as me, and one of the posted comments above from david.haypreub18_ESO suggested the same problem. I think it's insulting for you to tell us this is a L2P issue when DKs clearly have an iwin button.

I'm done fueling your insisting need on protecting your precious DK build. I'm out. Time to agree to disagree.

All Talons does is apply "immobilize" and a small amount of damage - you can still fight back when immobilized. In my nightmarish experience the DK will usually followup with Lava Whip (multiple times) which, if it connects when you are immobilized, sets you to "off balanced" and unable to do anything except break out balanced using stamina. This is the worse of the two possibilities, so I defend against this second punch. Yes, in the past, I have been killed by nothing but Talons and Whips - not so much any more.

technohic

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

99% of DK's run the same exact build and part of that build is invasion. They are ALWAYS in range lol. If it wasn't an issue people wouldn't be constantly talking about it. You don't hear people complaining about other skills except how underpowered they are. This same ridiculous post has been made a dozen times for this exact reason.

Plus I don't need immovable. I never once said I have an issue with fighting DK's. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

As far as a whole zerg being immune stop spamming it like some clearly do. Ask yourself, why do people spam it? O I know because it's obviously an ace in the pocket skill.

Fact is some people just want easy mode like a lot of inexperienced DK's do. Same can be said for inexperienced NB's who spam fear. The top DK's I have fought do not rely on it so I doubt a change would make them any less of a skilled player.

Me? I just teleport to shade, roll out and cloak. Reposition and attack again. Not everyone is smart enough to do that. Perhaps maybe that's why they complain about the skill.

Honestly I can care less about Talons, I'm just playing devils advocate here.

Talons is so incredibly easy to counter if the person being Talons'd has a brain... I have no problem with it on my Nightblade and I don't even use Shades to teleport too, I just tank through it and keep walking

Like I said, I'm just trying to play devils advocate here. I have no problem dealing with Talons or even DK's in general. I just know a lot of people have issues with the skill and I try to understand their point of view. I play NB as a highly mobile class so that's why I like shades and cloak. I generally don't tank with my NB, I like to attack a group of players, look for openings and weak targets, then ambush back and forth between targets. Heck, sometimes I'll be taloned and don't feel like wasting stamina and I'll just look for someone a few meters away and ambush him just to get away and assess my next move from there. Talon usually will still remain for a second but it usually never hurts me in the long run.

What does dragon scales do to ambush? I'm guessing nothing since it is a spell but not a projectile. Sorry for the sidetrack as I just eclipsed a NB and it looked like he went to do an ambush or teleport or something and wound up knocking himself down. I find it hilarious when that stuff happens. That said; I really think the way some NBs fly around is cool and want to level one whenever they get rid of VR levels.

It shouldn't do anything but normal melee damage. It's not a projectile. Did someone use a knockdown skill on him right when he landed?

Yeah, sorry. I kind of caught myself as I realised for reflective scales, it is termed as reflecting projectiles. I used templar Eclipse on him which reflects single target spells (rather than just projectile.)

vortexman11

What aspect of Talons do you guys even hope to be nerfed? Because you guys better nerf Encase while you're at it, it even has a longer immobilization.

And if you guys nerf talons you better not complain when even more DKs start using Destruction staffs, its our only way of keeping you people in range of us.

vortexman11

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

. But when I see how many people think the skill is a bit overpowered it cannot be mere coincidence.

It's a DragonKnight skill and everyone wants DragonKnights nerfed into oblivion, so its no coincidence.