Should Talons Be Nerfed? - Why and Why Not.

Panda244

If you post before reading this wall of text you can promptly GTFO

I understand the need to go back and re-balance some skills, but Talons isn't one of those skills. Unless an ability stuns you, and completely removes the ability to control your character, then it shouldn't grant CC immunity or be effected by CC immunity, this would apply to all Roots, Talons included. Roots, should not be effected by CC immunity, but giving Talons a global cool-down of 0.25 seconds will help in the regard to Talons spam. (I don't support this, but seeing as people won't stop complaining about it...) Crippling Grasp, is a Root, and should not be effected by CC immunity, Encase, is a Root, and should not be effected by CC immunity. Even the crappy Fighter's Guild Root, is a Root and should not be effected by CC immunity.

Invasion, Dragon Leap, Stonefist, Crystal Shards, Fear, Destructive Touch, Magnum Shot, Wrecking Blow, Sneak Attack Stuns, Javelin, Rune Prison, Petrify, Agony, etc. These are all stuns and therefor should grant CC immunity and be effected by CC immunity. If someone hits you with Destructive Touch and you get stunned, whether you break free or wait it out, you get CC immunity, this should NOT be the case with Roots, Roots are not hard CCs that prevent you from controlling your character and therefor do not, and should not, be effected by CC immunity whatsoever.

Now from a Dragonknight point of view, or biased. Call it what you want. I don't believe that Talons needs to be balanced or tweaked in any way shape or form, the ability is fine, the damage is a tad bit overpowered when you look at the utility of the skill. Talons shouldn't be something that any Dragonknight spams repeatedly in PvE or PvP, the ability deals decent AoE damage sure, but spamming it over and over is a waste of your time, and your enemies time in PvP. The one thing I keep seeing people ask for when it comes to Talons, is adding it to the CC list. But it isn't a CC people, it doesn't prevent control of your character, so there is no way in hell I will support adding it to the CC immunity list. CC's in Elder Scrolls Online aren't abilities that Root your character, or Snare your character, they're abilities, like the ones' listed above that remove complete control of your character, Talons doesn't do this. Neither do any of the other Roots. So if you change Talons in any way regarding the Root aspect of the ability, then every other Root in the game needs to be looked at, one last thing I'd like to point out to everyone from the "biased" viewpoint. Encase, the Sorcerer ability, is essentially the exact same ability, an AoE root with decent damage, the only reason you hardly every see a Sorcerer use it, is because of it's high cost and the fact that Sorcerers' have no melee skills.

Now onto the Nightblade perspective of things, when I play my Nightblade in PvP, I usually stay in the back of the group and use the Restoration skill Rapid Regeneration to charge Soul Tether or Veil of Blades, then I move up through the group and Ambush or Shield Charge in to start my Sap Tank rotation, as a Sap Tank literally all I do is push the enemy back by repeatedly dropping Veils or spamming Soul Tether while my group pushes, so anything that stops me from moving is a big deal, such as Talons. However, because of my build, and the fact that I use Siphoning Attacks, I basically have an endless supply of Magicka/Stamina, so if I get Talons'd, I either roll dodge forward into the enemy group, or swap bars and use Cleanse, which removes Talons and gives me a pretty strong burst heal. So on my Nightblade, I don't have any problems with this ability what-so-ever.

Talons isn't overpowered, and it isn't under-powered, keep in mind that if you change this ability for the worse, that Dragonknights' will become much less effective in PvP, we don't have a single ability with a range over 15m, unless you include our chain pull which doesn't work half the time, and now if the target is blocking or for some reason you can't pull them, you get pulled to them, which is mind-fumblingly screwed up. Dragonknight's are melee opponents, Talons is what we use to keep people in melee range if they're leaving. If I want to spam an AoE, I'll spam Draw Essence and Impulse, as they do more damage when combined for a cheaper cost than Talons.

Once again, before I finish, I'd like to point out that if the developers at ZOS listen to everyone whining about Talons and decide to change the CC immunity or Root aspect of the ability, every other Root in game needs to be looked at, which means you'll probably end up nerfing Encase and Cripple for both Nightblades and Sorcerers, and we all know Sorcerers' have had the crappy end of the stick for a while now. I'd also like to say one final thing, PvP oriented. If a Dragonknight is spamming Talons, why the hell are you close to him? Back up, roll dodge, if you're a Nightblade, use your own Root on him, same goes for Sorcerers. A single Dragonknight spamming Talons cannot do anything, three or four Dragonknights spamming Talons can slow down a larger group, or kill a smaller one. But in truth, and practice, the only time a smaller group will kill a larger group is if that larger group is less organized and experienced. This is the last reason why I don't support Talons being nerfed. It's an ability, that only gets idiots killed, I'm sorry if that comes off as offensive but it's true, in PvP, when I'm playing my Dragonknight and I Talons two or three people, most of the time they just stand in it, like they don't know they can't Purge or Roll Dodge it. The good players will roll dodge backwards, and continue walking backwards, I don't chase them because I can use my Stamina for better things, such as rolling myself, or blocking.

My conclusion? Oh well I'm glad you read it this far, I understand that not every Nightblade player in PvP can use my build and have access to the Stamina or Magicka to roll dodge, or purge Talons. So what I propose to fix this issue of Root-Spam, is not to downgrade the ability itself, [but to add a small, global cool-down on Talons, 0.25 seconds or 0.5 seconds, that way us Dragonknights can't just spam it over and over and over and over, and you people complaining will have nothing to complain about anymore, at least until you find something new.]

Edit. Math regarding Talons, and the ability to spam it, versus Mass Hysteria, or Nightblade Fear.

Evocation = Reduces the Magicka cost of Spells by 3% per piece of Light Armor equipped. (Might be old info.)
Let's assume that we have a Dragonknight with 2,500 Magicka and a Nightblade with 2,500 Magicka, both wearing full Light Armor for a total of 21% Spell Cost Reduction, no Sets or additional spell cost reduction will be involved.

Mass Hysteria = 448 Magicka Cost
21% of 448 = 94.08
448 - 94.08 = 353.92 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
420 - 88.2 = 331.8 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Now lets see how many times a DK can spam Talons, versus a Nightblade spamming Mass Hysteria.

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 331.8 = 7.53465943339 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Nightblade - Mass Hysteria
2,500 / 353.92 = 7.06374321881 <- Possible Fear Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

What this means is a Dragonknight will probably get off 8-9 Talons if he spams it over and over depending on his Magicka Recovery and if he's using Seducer, Archmage, or Warlock, while a Nightblade can probably get off 10-12 Fears depending on Magicka Recovery and Seducer/Warlock/Archmage.

Fear provides CC Immunity because it removes the ability to control your character.
Talons does not provide CC Immunity because it does not remove control of your character, it just prevents your character from physically moving.

Talons cannot "Perma-Stun" because it isn't a stun, Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs and Blazing Spears, are the only two possible "Perma-Stuns" in game, and they're both fixed in 1.6.

Just because most Dragonknights use Seducer as a set, I'll give you the possible amount of times and the cost for Talons.

Burning Talons = 420 Magicka Cost
21% of 420 = 88.2
8% of 420 = 33.6
420 - 88.2 - 33.6 = 298.2 <- Final Cost (With just Light Armor, no sets.)

Dragonknight - Talons
2,500 / 298.2 = 8.3836351442 <- Possible Talon Spams (With no Magicka Recovery or Sets)

Case Closed. Dragonknights can probably spam Talons 12-14 times if they wear Seducer and have around 120-140 Magicka Recovery, that's 12-14 times and then they're simply out of Magicka. As one of my close friends @Thorjagger said. I will link his quote. Once again. For simple. Fact.

Thorjagger wrote: »

DK talon spam. Defining the difference between a good DK and a bad DK.

Panda244

Just going to leave this here, if you've read the post, and are just going to QQ anyway and blatantly say Talons should be nerfed without any reason as to why, with evidence backing your reason up. Just... Just leave... Forums are no place for QQing people that want everything that kills them or gets them killed to be nerfed, go whine on your facebook page.

Joy_Division

I actually agree with much of your analysis and I think the core of your message, that Talons is *not* Hard CC that prevents a target from attacking or defending themselves, is correct and people should be mindful of that before calling for blanket nerfs and immunities. CC immunity is a *very* powerful combat state and as such should not be granted to anything that is a mere inconvenience, such as talons, and only to effects that make the target 100% vulnerable to attacks. (For this reason I am annoyed at the Biting Jabs "fix" - yes the spam was unfair, but if ZoS is going to grant CC immunity that last Jab should put a legitimate CC on an opponent... but that is a different topic).

Where I disagree with you is when you drift away from the core of your message. 10 seconds of CC immunity is *way* too much. 5 seconds is more than enough for a player to recover and prevent a spam. I also disagree that it would somehow give PvP a better feel...as it is there is a huge break in verisimilitude why stuns and knockdowns all of a sudden stop working. I understand the need for fairness and nobody likes spending an entire fight on the ground, but if a player can't use those 5 seconds of immunity to reorient themselves and adequately prepare themselves from the next CC attack from an opponent, then that is the fault of the player. In short, too bad...you were given long enough and you weren't going to win anyway.

I also disagree with "significantly" reduces the cost of roll-dodging and breaking free. There are already options available in the game to so this; by reducing the costs significantly, you are basically making more armor sets worthless. There *should* be an opportunity cost to those people who are going to put all 62 attribute points into magicka and devote all their gear to spellpower. You proposed change will mean they no longer have to fear one of the main drawbacks into investing everything into offense. Sorry, but again too bad to all those spellpower and magicka stackers. Go ahead and build your character that way and ignore stuff like the Arena set. This may not prevent them from whining on the forums much when they get killed, but at least PvP will have some semblance of balance of these offensive juggernauts have weaknesses that can be exploited.

Cody

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

Panda244

Joy_Division wrote: »

I actually agree with much of your analysis and I think the core of your message, that Talons is *not* Hard CC that prevents a target from attacking or defending themselves, is correct and people should be mindful of that before calling for blanket nerfs and immunities. CC immunity is a *very* powerful combat state and as such should not be granted to anything that is a mere inconvenience, such as talons, and only to effects that make the target 100% vulnerable to attacks. (For this reason I am annoyed at the Biting Jabs "fix" - yes the spam was unfair, but if ZoS is going to grant CC immunity that last Jab should put a legitimate CC on an opponent... but that is a different topic).

Where I disagree with you is when you drift away from the core of your message. 10 seconds of CC immunity is *way* too much. 5 seconds is more than enough for a player to recover and prevent a spam. I also disagree that it would somehow give PvP a better feel...as it is there is a huge break in verisimilitude why stuns and knockdowns all of a sudden stop working. I understand the need for fairness and nobody likes spending an entire fight on the ground, but if a player can't use those 5 seconds of immunity to reorient themselves and adequately prepare themselves from the next CC attack from an opponent, then that is the fault of the player. In short, too bad...you were given long enough and you weren't going to win anyway.

I also disagree with "significantly" reduces the cost of roll-dodging and breaking free. There are already options available in the game to so this; by reducing the costs significantly, you are basically making more armor sets worthless. There *should* be an opportunity cost to those people who are going to put all 62 attribute points into magicka and devote all their gear to spellpower. You proposed change will mean they no longer have to fear one of the main drawbacks into investing everything into offense. Sorry, but again too bad to all those spellpower and magicka stackers. Go ahead and build your character that way and ignore stuff like the Arena set. This may not prevent them from whining on the forums much when they get killed, but at least PvP will have some semblance of balance of these offensive juggernauts have weaknesses that can be exploited.

Well you understood the core message and that's all that really matters, the only reason I continued typing was because the people that don't like inconveniences in their PvP won't quit whining, and I'd rather there be a fix that doesn't involve nerfing Talons into the dirt, because then the DK population would be very, very unhappy. As you said, stacking everything into offense and then not having to worry about getting CC'd would cause other issues, so that's probably not going to help at all. I'll edit that bit out, for the whiners though, a fix still is needed, a global cool-down on Talons might help. Just a tiny bit, then again it's a nuisance not a hard CC, so that tiny bit that helps you best be the tiny bit that you use. People would be surprised by how long ten seconds can feel in PvP, and how long ten seconds can grant you to fight back or run and hide.

There, edited the post. Do you at least agree with this fix? Should there be a fix, this at least doesn't make CC immunity overpowered, it doesn't change the ability itself, and it doesn't have the reduced roll dodge cost.

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

@Cody I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

Or you know, you CAN back up and disengage, this IS an option in PvP people, not directing this to you Cody, but to people that think they don't have the option to fall back and live to fight another day.

Cody

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

You basically disregarded everything... I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

/sigh

If only you have dealt with what I had to deal with from DKs for the past however many months

Heck YOU once taloned me to death... the 2nd time you tried, I was already out of stamina and magicka before you even began attacking me with your whips;how can you sit there and say it is not a problem?

forgive me if i dont approve of a root making up for half-most of a DKs Damage... forgive me if I am tired of running out of stamina because I have to constantly roll out of a dang root every .5 seconds, I DO NOT HAVE THE STAMINA TO ROLL FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THEY CAST TALONS. The most I can roll is SEVEN. SEVEN. WITH FULL MEDIUM ARMOR, 40 POINTS INTO STAMINA, ALL MEDIUM ARMOR PASSIVES, ALL STAMINA ENCHANTS WITH FOOD BUFFS, SEVEN.

and because I am a stamina build, I can only use dark cloak a few times(purge only once or twice). Perhaps a magicka build can deal with it, but not every one runs a magcika build. By the time the talon spam stops I will have taken a huge amount of physical damage, AND have run out of resources... all...from....a....root. A ROOT. Now add in the DK abiltites meant to do damage, whip, breath, all of those. and do not say " DKs cant talon that many times" because they can; iv seen it happen many a time. and would it really kill you if your opponents had a TWO SECOND immunity from talons? Is your build that centered around them?

I am trying to get you to see it in your mind; if i cant, then fine, so be it.

There is no point in arguing with you; your mind is set, and so is mine. perhaps it will be different in 1.6

and don't sit there and call me a whiner or a "nerf crier" as ill call it. you know dang well I do not whine about every single thing about this game.(im sure you intended to call me it, if you do not in your reply, then forgive me)

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

You basically disregarded everything... I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

/sigh

If only you have dealt with what I had to deal with from DKs for the past however many months

Heck YOU once taloned me to death... the 2nd time you tried, I was already out of stamina and magicka before you even began attacking me with your whips;how can you sit there and say it is not a problem?

forgive me if i dont approve of a root making up for half-most of a DKs Damage... forgive me if I am tired of running out of stamina because I have to constantly roll out of a dang root every .5 seconds, I DO NOT HAVE THE STAMINA TO ROLL FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THEY CAST TALONS. The most I can roll is SEVEN. SEVEN. WITH FULL MEDIUM ARMOR, 40 POINTS INTO STAMINA, ALL MEDIUM ARMOR PASSIVES, ALL STAMINA ENCHANTS WITH FOOD BUFFS, SEVEN.

and because I am a stamina build, I can only use dark cloak a few times(purge only once or twice). Perhaps a magicka build can deal with it, but not every one runs a magcika build. By the time the talon spam stops I will have taken a huge amount of physical damage, AND have run out of resources... all...from....a....root. A ROOT. Now add in the DK abiltites meant to do damage, whip, breath, all of those. and do not say " DKs cant talon that many times" because they can; iv seen it happen many a time. and would it really kill you, if your opponents had a TWO SECOND immunity from talons? Is your build that centered around them.

I am trying to get you to see it in your mind; if i cant, then fine, so be it.

There is no point in arguing with you; your mind is set, and so is mine. perhaps it will be different in 1.6

and don't sit there and call me a whiner or a "nerf crier" as ill call it. you know dang well I do not whine about every single thing about this game.(im sure you intended to call me it, if you do not in your reply, then forgive me)

My mind is never set in stone, I understand that Talons has high damage for a utility spell, but that's not what this post is about... I can assure you the only reason I ever use Talons is if my target/targets are retreating, or I'm generating Ultimate, which won't work in 1.6, so Talons will be used less, I hope. I'm not that heavily invested in Spell Damage so I can't speak for people that are, but I'm pretty sure from what I can remember my Talons did anywhere from 350 damage, to 400 damage, on both mobs and players. The synergy, is what does a crap ton of damage, if I use it, it deals anywhere from 700-1,000 damage on Live, but that's also besides the point, the only time Talons outright kills someone is if as you pointed at, they're already low on resources and Health, and would've probably died regardless of Talons.

I won't be upset if the damage on Talons is nerfed, it's a utility spell not a damage spell, but once again, besides the point of this post, this post is more about CC and CC immunity in regards to Talons... I'm sorry to have offended you Cody, you know I like you

Cody

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

You basically disregarded everything... I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

/sigh

If only you have dealt with what I had to deal with from DKs for the past however many months

Heck YOU once taloned me to death... the 2nd time you tried, I was already out of stamina and magicka before you even began attacking me with your whips;how can you sit there and say it is not a problem?

forgive me if i dont approve of a root making up for half-most of a DKs Damage... forgive me if I am tired of running out of stamina because I have to constantly roll out of a dang root every .5 seconds, I DO NOT HAVE THE STAMINA TO ROLL FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THEY CAST TALONS. The most I can roll is SEVEN. SEVEN. WITH FULL MEDIUM ARMOR, 40 POINTS INTO STAMINA, ALL MEDIUM ARMOR PASSIVES, ALL STAMINA ENCHANTS WITH FOOD BUFFS, SEVEN.

and because I am a stamina build, I can only use dark cloak a few times(purge only once or twice). Perhaps a magicka build can deal with it, but not every one runs a magcika build. By the time the talon spam stops I will have taken a huge amount of physical damage, AND have run out of resources... all...from....a....root. A ROOT. Now add in the DK abiltites meant to do damage, whip, breath, all of those. and do not say " DKs cant talon that many times" because they can; iv seen it happen many a time. and would it really kill you, if your opponents had a TWO SECOND immunity from talons? Is your build that centered around them.

I am trying to get you to see it in your mind; if i cant, then fine, so be it.

There is no point in arguing with you; your mind is set, and so is mine. perhaps it will be different in 1.6

and don't sit there and call me a whiner or a "nerf crier" as ill call it. you know dang well I do not whine about every single thing about this game.(im sure you intended to call me it, if you do not in your reply, then forgive me)

My mind is never set in stone, I understand that Talons has high damage for a utility spell, but that's not what this post is about... I can assure you the only reason I ever use Talons is if my target/targets are retreating, or I'm generating Ultimate, which won't work in 1.6, so Talons will be used less, I hope. I'm not that heavily invested in Spell Damage so I can't speak for people that are, but I'm pretty sure from what I can remember my Talons did anywhere from 350 damage, to 400 damage, on both mobs and players. The synergy, is what does a crap ton of damage, if I use it, it deals anywhere from 700-1,000 damage on Live, but that's also besides the point, the only time Talons outright kills someone is if as you pointed at, they're already low on resources and Health, and would've probably died regardless of Talons.

I won't be upset if the damage on Talons is nerfed, it's a utility spell not a damage spell, but once again, besides the point of this post, this post is more about CC and CC immunity in regards to Talons... I'm sorry to have offended you Cody, you know I like you

you did not offend me. I typed in all caps to try to make a point.

I know i made it sound nothing like it, but the physical damage is NOT why i want an immunity timer, it is nowhere near the reason, I only stated how it could potentially add to the issue. the damage by itself is not what i find ridiculous, nor is it even the damage itself, it is the SPAMMING of it, (like why i despise damage shield spam) I get annoyed and ticked off when I see a DK talon me or someone else OVER AND OVER AND OVER, WHILE STILL using a crap ton of whips and heals and all that crap. It makes it seem like resource management is not a concern for the DK.It frustrates me, that I have to make tactical use of my abilities,(i cannot spam fear, nor would i, that is a stupid tactic for any NB) then see some random DK use talons about 7 times, then use about 3-5 whips after that, WITH dragon blood. It makes it look like the class requires no skill to play(and no, i do not think that, it makes it LOOK like it)

In case you did not read that big wall of tiny text: Two reasons I don't like Talon spam
1. seeing someone use it 7 times in a row, and me losing all my resources over it before even fighting me
2. them using that, PLUS a crap ton of whips, dragon bloods, and all the other stuff DKs use, making it seem like no tactical resource management is required.

it may not be on topic with the post... but i have already posted it. Now we will see if a dev deletes it:)

If it is uselees in 1.6, then i will shut up and see how it is when 1.6 goes live(the only DKs I have faced in the PTS are people taking advantage of the 2H bugs and damage shield stackers/spammers, so idk how talons is in 1.6)

and i like you too:) even though you are a weak, pathetic soldier of the aldmeri dominion, even though you are in service to a false and arrogant queen, even though we were arch enemies in blackwater blade, and even though you and I have two polar opposite opinions about talons, I still like you:)

You should make a stamina build and come gank with me some when 1.6 goes live:)

Cody

oh and if this means every root gets the same treatment, then fine; do it. I have always believed in balance, so i will do so here.

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

You basically disregarded everything... I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

/sigh

If only you have dealt with what I had to deal with from DKs for the past however many months

Heck YOU once taloned me to death... the 2nd time you tried, I was already out of stamina and magicka before you even began attacking me with your whips;how can you sit there and say it is not a problem?

forgive me if i dont approve of a root making up for half-most of a DKs Damage... forgive me if I am tired of running out of stamina because I have to constantly roll out of a dang root every .5 seconds, I DO NOT HAVE THE STAMINA TO ROLL FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THEY CAST TALONS. The most I can roll is SEVEN. SEVEN. WITH FULL MEDIUM ARMOR, 40 POINTS INTO STAMINA, ALL MEDIUM ARMOR PASSIVES, ALL STAMINA ENCHANTS WITH FOOD BUFFS, SEVEN.

and because I am a stamina build, I can only use dark cloak a few times(purge only once or twice). Perhaps a magicka build can deal with it, but not every one runs a magcika build. By the time the talon spam stops I will have taken a huge amount of physical damage, AND have run out of resources... all...from....a....root. A ROOT. Now add in the DK abiltites meant to do damage, whip, breath, all of those. and do not say " DKs cant talon that many times" because they can; iv seen it happen many a time. and would it really kill you, if your opponents had a TWO SECOND immunity from talons? Is your build that centered around them.

I am trying to get you to see it in your mind; if i cant, then fine, so be it.

There is no point in arguing with you; your mind is set, and so is mine. perhaps it will be different in 1.6

and don't sit there and call me a whiner or a "nerf crier" as ill call it. you know dang well I do not whine about every single thing about this game.(im sure you intended to call me it, if you do not in your reply, then forgive me)

My mind is never set in stone, I understand that Talons has high damage for a utility spell, but that's not what this post is about... I can assure you the only reason I ever use Talons is if my target/targets are retreating, or I'm generating Ultimate, which won't work in 1.6, so Talons will be used less, I hope. I'm not that heavily invested in Spell Damage so I can't speak for people that are, but I'm pretty sure from what I can remember my Talons did anywhere from 350 damage, to 400 damage, on both mobs and players. The synergy, is what does a crap ton of damage, if I use it, it deals anywhere from 700-1,000 damage on Live, but that's also besides the point, the only time Talons outright kills someone is if as you pointed at, they're already low on resources and Health, and would've probably died regardless of Talons.

I won't be upset if the damage on Talons is nerfed, it's a utility spell not a damage spell, but once again, besides the point of this post, this post is more about CC and CC immunity in regards to Talons... I'm sorry to have offended you Cody, you know I like you

you did not offend me. I typed in all caps to try to make a point.

I know i made it sound nothing like it, but the physical damage is NOT why i want an immunity timer, it is nowhere near the reason, I only stated how it could potentially add to the issue. the damage by itself is not what i find ridiculous, nor is it even the damage itself, it is the SPAMMING of it, (like why i despise damage shield spam) I get annoyed and ticked off when I see a DK talon me or someone else OVER AND OVER AND OVER, WHILE STILL using a crap ton of whips and heals and all that crap. It makes it seem like resource management is not a concern for the DK.It frustrates me, that I have to make tactical use of my abilities,(i cannot spam fear, nor would i, that is a stupid tactic for any NB) then see some random DK use talons about 7 times, then use about 3-5 whips after that, WITH dragon blood. It makes it look like the class requires no skill to play(and no, i do not think that, it makes it LOOK like it)

In case you did not read that big wall of tiny text: Two reasons I don't like Talon spam
1. seeing someone use it 7 times in a row, and me losing all my resources over it before even fighting me
2. them using that, PLUS a crap ton of whips, dragon bloods, and all the other stuff DKs use, making it seem like no tactical resource management is required.

it may not be on topic with the post... but i have already posted it. Now we will see if a dev deletes it:)

If it is uselees in 1.6, then i will shut up and see how it is when 1.6 goes live(the only DKs I have faced in the PTS are people taking advantage of the 2H bugs and damage shield stackers/spammers, so idk how talons is in 1.6)

and i like you too:) even though you are a weak, pathetic soldier of the aldmeri dominion, even though you are in service to a false and arrogant queen, even though we were arch enemies in blackwater blade, and even though you and I have two polar opposite opinions about talons, I still like you:)

You should make a stamina build and come gank with me some when 1.6 goes live:)

I understand man... I do agree that Dragonknights probably have the second biggest advantage when it comes to resource management, Nightblades being the first with Siphoning Attacks. It's due to the fact that their abilities are all magicka, so they cost cheap cheap. So if a DK throws EVERYTHING, into magicka, with light armor, and cost reduction enchants, they can get their abilities to cost ridiculous amounts, my Unstable Flame costs exactly 100 magicka on live, I wear 2 pieces of medium armor, and no magicka cost reduction.

Back to Talons, lets throw out an example of my play style and use of it. 1v4, I'm fighting two NBs, a Templar Healer, and a Sorcerer. (This is the most recent small fight I can remember) The Sorcerer is a member of the Pact, the rest are Daggits as Telel calls them.

I shield charge Templar Healer, ignoring the two NBs, and get Tempy down to about 60% with Flame Lash, then I hit him with Unstable Flame, and roll dodge away just as the NBs close distance and start fear spamming. I break the first fear, swap bars, heal up, drop a cinder storm or two, swap bars, talons twice, drop my standard, talons again, kill one Nightblade with Flame Lash. Oh noes! A sorcerer appears! I drop combat with the daggits and all three of us gang up on the Sorc and kill him, then I stun the Templar with Invasion, but the NB fears me and I have no stamina! So I get wrecked down to about 20% health and the templar heals the nightblade, swap bars, hit Igneous, use GDB and chug a tripot, drop a cinder storm, swap bars, use Dragon leap, this is all to get resources back, shield charge the Nightblade, then the Templar, and retreat back to my group, or the outpost, or the keep, and basically bunny hop away while healing, because a Templar healer and Nightblade is a hard match to kill with my low 97 spell damage.

Now obviously not every DK uses Talons like I do, and most just spam it... But as you can see from my playstyle I rely mostly on Flame Lash and Unstable Flame, WHEN I'm inside my banner to kill anyone, the rest of the fight I'm just stunning people with shield charge and surviving until Standard is up.

Joy_Division

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

You basically disregarded everything... I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

/sigh

If only you have dealt with what I had to deal with from DKs for the past however many months

Heck YOU once taloned me to death... the 2nd time you tried, I was already out of stamina and magicka before you even began attacking me with your whips;how can you sit there and say it is not a problem?

forgive me if i dont approve of a root making up for half-most of a DKs Damage... forgive me if I am tired of running out of stamina because I have to constantly roll out of a dang root every .5 seconds, I DO NOT HAVE THE STAMINA TO ROLL FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THEY CAST TALONS. The most I can roll is SEVEN. SEVEN. WITH FULL MEDIUM ARMOR, 40 POINTS INTO STAMINA, ALL MEDIUM ARMOR PASSIVES, ALL STAMINA ENCHANTS WITH FOOD BUFFS, SEVEN.

and because I am a stamina build, I can only use dark cloak a few times(purge only once or twice). Perhaps a magicka build can deal with it, but not every one runs a magcika build. By the time the talon spam stops I will have taken a huge amount of physical damage, AND have run out of resources... all...from....a....root. A ROOT. Now add in the DK abiltites meant to do damage, whip, breath, all of those. and do not say " DKs cant talon that many times" because they can; iv seen it happen many a time. and would it really kill you if your opponents had a TWO SECOND immunity from talons? Is your build that centered around them?

I am trying to get you to see it in your mind; if i cant, then fine, so be it.

There is no point in arguing with you; your mind is set, and so is mine. perhaps it will be different in 1.6

and don't sit there and call me a whiner or a "nerf crier" as ill call it. you know dang well I do not whine about every single thing about this game.(im sure you intended to call me it, if you do not in your reply, then forgive me)

Seriously, why are you having such problems with talons? It is not a high damage attack, it does not prevent you from counter-attacking or defending yourself. You don't *have* to drain your stamina to break out of them. I wear light armor and can only roll out 3 times...it's not a big deal.

Joy_Division

Panda244 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I actually agree with much of your analysis and I think the core of your message, that Talons is *not* Hard CC that prevents a target from attacking or defending themselves, is correct and people should be mindful of that before calling for blanket nerfs and immunities. CC immunity is a *very* powerful combat state and as such should not be granted to anything that is a mere inconvenience, such as talons, and only to effects that make the target 100% vulnerable to attacks. (For this reason I am annoyed at the Biting Jabs "fix" - yes the spam was unfair, but if ZoS is going to grant CC immunity that last Jab should put a legitimate CC on an opponent... but that is a different topic).

Where I disagree with you is when you drift away from the core of your message. 10 seconds of CC immunity is *way* too much. 5 seconds is more than enough for a player to recover and prevent a spam. I also disagree that it would somehow give PvP a better feel...as it is there is a huge break in verisimilitude why stuns and knockdowns all of a sudden stop working. I understand the need for fairness and nobody likes spending an entire fight on the ground, but if a player can't use those 5 seconds of immunity to reorient themselves and adequately prepare themselves from the next CC attack from an opponent, then that is the fault of the player. In short, too bad...you were given long enough and you weren't going to win anyway.

I also disagree with "significantly" reduces the cost of roll-dodging and breaking free. There are already options available in the game to so this; by reducing the costs significantly, you are basically making more armor sets worthless. There *should* be an opportunity cost to those people who are going to put all 62 attribute points into magicka and devote all their gear to spellpower. You proposed change will mean they no longer have to fear one of the main drawbacks into investing everything into offense. Sorry, but again too bad to all those spellpower and magicka stackers. Go ahead and build your character that way and ignore stuff like the Arena set. This may not prevent them from whining on the forums much when they get killed, but at least PvP will have some semblance of balance of these offensive juggernauts have weaknesses that can be exploited.

Well you understood the core message and that's all that really matters, the only reason I continued typing was because the people that don't like inconveniences in their PvP won't quit whining, and I'd rather there be a fix that doesn't involve nerfing Talons into the dirt, because then the DK population would be very, very unhappy. As you said, stacking everything into offense and then not having to worry about getting CC'd would cause other issues, so that's probably not going to help at all. I'll edit that bit out, for the whiners though, a fix still is needed, a global cool-down on Talons might help. Just a tiny bit, then again it's a nuisance not a hard CC, so that tiny bit that helps you best be the tiny bit that you use. People would be surprised by how long ten seconds can feel in PvP, and how long ten seconds can grant you to fight back or run and hide.

There, edited the post. Do you at least agree with this fix? Should there be a fix, this at least doesn't make CC immunity overpowered, it doesn't change the ability itself, and it doesn't have the reduced roll dodge cost.

In general, I do not think it is a good idea in any aspect of life to give into whiners. If there is something legitimately inconsistent about skill, then yes, an adjustment should be made. But your basically saying "x skill is fine but we should change it because of whiners." No. I would never vote for a politician who advocated that, hire a employee who felt that was a good idea, or in general trust that person to exhibit good or sound judgement.

A DK who spams talons every half second is just wasting their mana...that damage does not stack, it is a high cost spell for moderate damage at best, and their spamming has zero influence on my ability to fight or defend myself against said DK. So not only do I not care if a DK does so, I actually hope the DK does spam talons. There are many ways in the game to comabt talons, drop an eclipse, fear the DK, use the arena set to break free for cheap, bolt escape away, use blazing shield and return the damage to the DK, etc., or, simply ignore them - most of the time I do not find a pressing reason to move of them (such as a standard and approaching zerg).

Panda244

Joy_Division wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I actually agree with much of your analysis and I think the core of your message, that Talons is *not* Hard CC that prevents a target from attacking or defending themselves, is correct and people should be mindful of that before calling for blanket nerfs and immunities. CC immunity is a *very* powerful combat state and as such should not be granted to anything that is a mere inconvenience, such as talons, and only to effects that make the target 100% vulnerable to attacks. (For this reason I am annoyed at the Biting Jabs "fix" - yes the spam was unfair, but if ZoS is going to grant CC immunity that last Jab should put a legitimate CC on an opponent... but that is a different topic).

Where I disagree with you is when you drift away from the core of your message. 10 seconds of CC immunity is *way* too much. 5 seconds is more than enough for a player to recover and prevent a spam. I also disagree that it would somehow give PvP a better feel...as it is there is a huge break in verisimilitude why stuns and knockdowns all of a sudden stop working. I understand the need for fairness and nobody likes spending an entire fight on the ground, but if a player can't use those 5 seconds of immunity to reorient themselves and adequately prepare themselves from the next CC attack from an opponent, then that is the fault of the player. In short, too bad...you were given long enough and you weren't going to win anyway.

I also disagree with "significantly" reduces the cost of roll-dodging and breaking free. There are already options available in the game to so this; by reducing the costs significantly, you are basically making more armor sets worthless. There *should* be an opportunity cost to those people who are going to put all 62 attribute points into magicka and devote all their gear to spellpower. You proposed change will mean they no longer have to fear one of the main drawbacks into investing everything into offense. Sorry, but again too bad to all those spellpower and magicka stackers. Go ahead and build your character that way and ignore stuff like the Arena set. This may not prevent them from whining on the forums much when they get killed, but at least PvP will have some semblance of balance of these offensive juggernauts have weaknesses that can be exploited.

Well you understood the core message and that's all that really matters, the only reason I continued typing was because the people that don't like inconveniences in their PvP won't quit whining, and I'd rather there be a fix that doesn't involve nerfing Talons into the dirt, because then the DK population would be very, very unhappy. As you said, stacking everything into offense and then not having to worry about getting CC'd would cause other issues, so that's probably not going to help at all. I'll edit that bit out, for the whiners though, a fix still is needed, a global cool-down on Talons might help. Just a tiny bit, then again it's a nuisance not a hard CC, so that tiny bit that helps you best be the tiny bit that you use. People would be surprised by how long ten seconds can feel in PvP, and how long ten seconds can grant you to fight back or run and hide.

There, edited the post. Do you at least agree with this fix? Should there be a fix, this at least doesn't make CC immunity overpowered, it doesn't change the ability itself, and it doesn't have the reduced roll dodge cost.

In general, I do not think it is a good idea in any aspect of life to give into whiners. If there is something legitimately inconsistent about skill, then yes, an adjustment should be made. But your basically saying "x skill is fine but we should change it because of whiners." No. I would never vote for a politician who advocated that, hire a employee who felt that was a good idea, or in general trust that person to exhibit good or sound judgement.

A DK who spams talons every half second is just wasting their mana...that damage does not stack, it is a high cost spell for moderate damage at best, and their spamming has zero influence on my ability to fight or defend myself against said DK. So not only do I not care if a DK does so, I actually hope the DK does spam talons. There are many ways in the game to comabt talons, drop an eclipse, fear the DK, use the arena set to break free for cheap, bolt escape away, use blazing shield and return the damage to the DK, etc., or, simply ignore them - most of the time I do not find a pressing reason to move of them (such as a standard and approaching zerg).

Aye, and normally I don't give in, but since launch the only thing that's been in the forums constantly has been, "Nerf DKs!" and "Nerf Talons!" so I've had enough, the skill isn't legitimately broken, and it has three potential counters, technically four if you include the Arena set. But life is life, and you and I both know the people on the forums won't shut up unless they're catered too. So if the Devs ever decide to actually fix Talons even though it isn't broken, at least my approach doesn't wreck the skill into Oblivion like the fix to Surge did for Sorcerers.

Zenimax Logic = "Fixing things that aren't broken since May 1999"

Vizier

Hear what you are saying. Don't agree. It's a far too prolific ability atm and needs tweaking. That was an interesting Wall of Text but ultimately blind IMO.

It may very well be that upcoming changes to ultimate generation and scales will move talons back on the list of priority fixes. I guess we'll just wait and see, but if I were King for a day the Nerf bat would be all up and down that skill.

Cody

Joy_Division wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

they don't need nerfing, they just need a tiny immunity timer.

just 2 seconds would be fine.

You basically disregarded everything... I'm trying to say that Talons is not a hard CC, and therefor shouldn't have any immunity. Whatsoever, at all, period. None. Notta, you can use magic or stamina, or both, to get yourself out of it. If they spam Talons, and you alternate between purge and dodge roll, they'll run out of magicka before you run out of stamina and magicka.

/sigh

If only you have dealt with what I had to deal with from DKs for the past however many months

Heck YOU once taloned me to death... the 2nd time you tried, I was already out of stamina and magicka before you even began attacking me with your whips;how can you sit there and say it is not a problem?

forgive me if i dont approve of a root making up for half-most of a DKs Damage... forgive me if I am tired of running out of stamina because I have to constantly roll out of a dang root every .5 seconds, I DO NOT HAVE THE STAMINA TO ROLL FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THEY CAST TALONS. The most I can roll is SEVEN. SEVEN. WITH FULL MEDIUM ARMOR, 40 POINTS INTO STAMINA, ALL MEDIUM ARMOR PASSIVES, ALL STAMINA ENCHANTS WITH FOOD BUFFS, SEVEN.

and because I am a stamina build, I can only use dark cloak a few times(purge only once or twice). Perhaps a magicka build can deal with it, but not every one runs a magcika build. By the time the talon spam stops I will have taken a huge amount of physical damage, AND have run out of resources... all...from....a....root. A ROOT. Now add in the DK abiltites meant to do damage, whip, breath, all of those. and do not say " DKs cant talon that many times" because they can; iv seen it happen many a time. and would it really kill you if your opponents had a TWO SECOND immunity from talons? Is your build that centered around them?

I am trying to get you to see it in your mind; if i cant, then fine, so be it.

There is no point in arguing with you; your mind is set, and so is mine. perhaps it will be different in 1.6

and don't sit there and call me a whiner or a "nerf crier" as ill call it. you know dang well I do not whine about every single thing about this game.(im sure you intended to call me it, if you do not in your reply, then forgive me)

Seriously, why are you having such problems with talons? It is not a high damage attack, it does not prevent you from counter-attacking or defending yourself. You don't *have* to drain your stamina to break out of them. I wear light armor and can only roll out 3 times...it's not a big deal.

then you have not had to deal with the crap I have had to deal with.

My response to that; good for you. you are very lucky. May your luck never die.

Joy_Division

Well, I am glad neither one of you are King for a day. If everyone were made King for a day, it is clear we'd have a crap game with no useful or interesting abilities.

Cody

Joy_Division wrote: »

Well, I am glad neither one of you are King for a day. If everyone were made King for a day, it is clear we'd have a crap game with no useful or interesting abilities.

i don't want to be "king for a day" the fact you think that tells me you have nothing remotely interesting to say; therefore, you are not worth my time. I have seen your type before, and am not going to put up with you. Someone that sits there and makes an entire paragraph about "whiners" is not worth the trouble. I could find you on a topic where YOU don't like something, and call you a whiner on it just the same. so your whole "whiner" speech, is stupid and pointless. goodbye. gl to you with whatever you do next.

jopeymonster

Sounds like the use for Talons from a DK perspective is mainly for the root to keep targets in range. And the biggest issue against Talons is spamming. The damage is superficial, so that should be removed. It may be a minor aspect, but anything that AoE CCs without granting CC immunity, should NOT deal damage. That's having your cake and eating it too.

Other suggestions for a Talons "fix":

• DoT/damage is applied to the target AFTER the Talons roots expire - this keeps the tanking happy but reduces the ability for spam
• Increase the cost substantially - again, reduces spamming
• Damage remains intact - does not root but snares instead
• Limit the amount of targets that can be rooted
• Remove the synergy
• Reduce the time length of the root

Armitas

The only way this can ever have an immunity timer is via break free, or from it's full durations end (IE you did not roll out of the 4second duration). You cannot give an entire group CC immunity for a .5 second root that is rolled out of. Immunity is not warranted for a .5 second loss of the W key. It also becomes a problem when a DK is out there handing out free immunities to an enemy raid with a .5 loss of the W key because this prevents any real CC, like fear from occurring.

Vizier

Ensure all negative effects disappear after stun break and I think I'd be ok with it. As is I don't think that is happening and it's effing with cloak when it shouldn't.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

You cannot give an entire group CC immunity for a .5 second root that is rolled out of.

ZOS just did that for the Templars, why not for DKs?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

i think some people just want an account wide cc immunity that only they have. they will never be ok with things that kill them often they will always complain. you can tell who they are because they dont use argument the just state things.

I completely agree, changing talons means changing all roots and snares... seems crazy.

on the topic of cc and how small changes can have big effects
changing puncturing sweep/jabbs to a hard cc is a problem. it was badly designed to permastun but the cc is too weak to be a legit hard cc. I vote it gets removed and changed to a root/snare. currently on pts its almost helping the target by bumping them then granting immunity

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Vizier wrote: »

Ensure all negative effects disappear after stun break and I think I'd be ok with it. As is I don't think that is happening and it's effing with cloak when it shouldn't.

well that would be crazy, cant be removing debuffs and dots from breaking free.

Panda244

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i think some people just want an account wide cc immunity that only they have. they will never be ok with things that kill them often they will always complain. you can tell who they are because they dont use argument the just state things.

I completely agree, changing talons means changing all roots and snares... seems crazy.

on the topic of cc and how small changes can have big effects
changing puncturing sweep/jabbs to a hard cc is a problem. it was badly designed to permastun but the cc is too weak to be a legit hard cc. I vote it gets removed and changed to a root/snare. currently on pts its almost helping the target by bumping them then granting immunity

Aye, removing the stagger effect from Jabs and giving it a high level snare makes a lot more sense, at least then you can hit them 2-3 times before you have to move to catch up. Cause Jabs has what? 8m range?

david.haypreub18_ESO

Panda244 wrote: »

Aye, removing the stagger effect from Jabs and giving it a high level snare makes a lot more sense, at least then you can hit them 2-3 times before you have to move to catch up. Cause Jabs has what? 8m range?

I don't agree with many things you say Panda, but I do on this one, totally.

danno8

Panda244 wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i think some people just want an account wide cc immunity that only they have. they will never be ok with things that kill them often they will always complain. you can tell who they are because they dont use argument the just state things.

I completely agree, changing talons means changing all roots and snares... seems crazy.

on the topic of cc and how small changes can have big effects
changing puncturing sweep/jabbs to a hard cc is a problem. it was badly designed to permastun but the cc is too weak to be a legit hard cc. I vote it gets removed and changed to a root/snare. currently on pts its almost helping the target by bumping them then granting immunity

Aye, removing the stagger effect from Jabs and giving it a high level snare makes a lot more sense, at least then you can hit them 2-3 times before you have to move to catch up. Cause Jabs has what? 8m range?

Jabs is the perfect example of play/counterplay. It is a very obvious, telegraphed 1+ second channel. The knockback spam was cheap, but a snare would be perfect. If you fail to dodge, block, bash or simply move out of the way in the 1+ second channel you deserve a good long snare.

Talons, on the other hand, is instant and has no easily recognizable telegraph. If you choose to spend a dodge roll to get out of it, draining a good portion of your stamina, I believe you should be immune for a few seconds.

Panda244

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i think some people just want an account wide cc immunity that only they have. they will never be ok with things that kill them often they will always complain. you can tell who they are because they dont use argument the just state things.

I completely agree, changing talons means changing all roots and snares... seems crazy.

on the topic of cc and how small changes can have big effects
changing puncturing sweep/jabbs to a hard cc is a problem. it was badly designed to permastun but the cc is too weak to be a legit hard cc. I vote it gets removed and changed to a root/snare. currently on pts its almost helping the target by bumping them then granting immunity

Aye, removing the stagger effect from Jabs and giving it a high level snare makes a lot more sense, at least then you can hit them 2-3 times before you have to move to catch up. Cause Jabs has what? 8m range?

Jabs is the perfect example of play/counterplay. It is a very obvious, telegraphed 1+ second channel. The knockback spam was cheap, but a snare would be perfect. If you fail to dodge, block, bash or simply move out of the way in the 1+ second channel you deserve a good long snare.

Talons, on the other hand, is instant and has no easily recognizable telegraph. If you choose to spend a dodge roll to get out of it, draining a good portion of your stamina, I believe you should be immune for a few seconds.

It's not a hard CC, no immunity. If they ever had soft CC immunity, then I would be inclined to agree with you... But since it's not in game, I can't. Also, a lot of people are telling me Magicka S/B DKs can't spam talons come 1.6, so we may not even have this problem in a few weeks.

danno8

Panda244 wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i think some people just want an account wide cc immunity that only they have. they will never be ok with things that kill them often they will always complain. you can tell who they are because they dont use argument the just state things.

I completely agree, changing talons means changing all roots and snares... seems crazy.

on the topic of cc and how small changes can have big effects
changing puncturing sweep/jabbs to a hard cc is a problem. it was badly designed to permastun but the cc is too weak to be a legit hard cc. I vote it gets removed and changed to a root/snare. currently on pts its almost helping the target by bumping them then granting immunity

Aye, removing the stagger effect from Jabs and giving it a high level snare makes a lot more sense, at least then you can hit them 2-3 times before you have to move to catch up. Cause Jabs has what? 8m range?

Jabs is the perfect example of play/counterplay. It is a very obvious, telegraphed 1+ second channel. The knockback spam was cheap, but a snare would be perfect. If you fail to dodge, block, bash or simply move out of the way in the 1+ second channel you deserve a good long snare.

Talons, on the other hand, is instant and has no easily recognizable telegraph. If you choose to spend a dodge roll to get out of it, draining a good portion of your stamina, I believe you should be immune for a few seconds.

It's not a hard CC, no immunity. If they ever had soft CC immunity, then I would be inclined to agree with you... But since it's not in game, I can't. Also, a lot of people are telling me Magicka S/B DKs can't spam talons come 1.6, so we may not even have this problem in a few weeks.

Actually I agree that 1.6 changes the game quite a bit. I would not do anything regarding talons until 1.6 has been out a while.

However, to keep the conversation going...it seems you are saying that not being able to move for 5 seconds is not enough of a reason to get immunity because you can still use your skills. I contend that in a game like this one, where movement and positioning is extremely important, that being rooted to the ground is a very potent cc. Not as potent as complete stun, no, but still very strong.

The opposite effect, "silence" which stops skills (granted magicka skills only, but what have we all been playing for the last 9 months?) but still allows you to move around, CAN in fact be "break freed" giving you cc immunity. I am curious as to whether you think this should be allowed seeing as how it is not a hard CC, and how you reconcile it with the fact that Talons can not.

Panda244

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

i think some people just want an account wide cc immunity that only they have. they will never be ok with things that kill them often they will always complain. you can tell who they are because they dont use argument the just state things.

I completely agree, changing talons means changing all roots and snares... seems crazy.

on the topic of cc and how small changes can have big effects
changing puncturing sweep/jabbs to a hard cc is a problem. it was badly designed to permastun but the cc is too weak to be a legit hard cc. I vote it gets removed and changed to a root/snare. currently on pts its almost helping the target by bumping them then granting immunity

Aye, removing the stagger effect from Jabs and giving it a high level snare makes a lot more sense, at least then you can hit them 2-3 times before you have to move to catch up. Cause Jabs has what? 8m range?

Jabs is the perfect example of play/counterplay. It is a very obvious, telegraphed 1+ second channel. The knockback spam was cheap, but a snare would be perfect. If you fail to dodge, block, bash or simply move out of the way in the 1+ second channel you deserve a good long snare.

Talons, on the other hand, is instant and has no easily recognizable telegraph. If you choose to spend a dodge roll to get out of it, draining a good portion of your stamina, I believe you should be immune for a few seconds.

It's not a hard CC, no immunity. If they ever had soft CC immunity, then I would be inclined to agree with you... But since it's not in game, I can't. Also, a lot of people are telling me Magicka S/B DKs can't spam talons come 1.6, so we may not even have this problem in a few weeks.

Actually I agree that 1.6 changes the game quite a bit. I would not do anything regarding talons until 1.6 has been out a while.

However, to keep the conversation going...it seems you are saying that not being able to move for 5 seconds is not enough of a reason to get immunity because you can still use your skills. I contend that in a game like this one, where movement and positioning is extremely important, that being rooted to the ground is a very potent cc. Not as potent as complete stun, no, but still very strong.

The opposite effect, "silence" which stops skills (granted magicka skills only, but what have we all been playing for the last 9 months?) but still allows you to move around, CAN in fact be "break freed" giving you cc immunity. I am curious as to whether you think this should be allowed seeing as how it is not a hard CC, and how you reconcile it with the fact that Talons can not.

Silence is only applied by one other skill in the game, Negate, which can be walked out of, completely ignored with immovable, or you can negate the negate.... lol. I understand your reasoning but like you said, come 1.6, I don't think it'll matter anymore since everyones' been nerfed and no one will be able to spam skills, however, because immovable ignores "Silence" maybe make it ignore roots too?

At least that's a semi-fix.

LegacyDM

sure keep talons the way it is as long as my nightblade can get an instant spammable root to drain my enemies stamina.