Vigor vs Templar vs Resto, is Vigor rly OP?

Ryuho

I decided to make some comparison of best heals in game. What's the most effective heal in 1.6.x, well lets see..

1. Comparison I - no armor, no att points allocated, no CP, no passives

(i) Breath of Life - Cost: 4069 MP Heal: 3068 + 2 other targets for 1535
(ii) Resolving Vigor - Cost: 2394 S Heal: 3672 over 5s + nearby allies for 2832
(iii) Illustrious Healing - Cost: 3112 MP Heal: 636 evry 1s for 4s + target area only

2. Comparison II - light armor full MP glyphs, no att points allocated, no CP, light armor cost spell reduction passive (only)

(i) Breath of Life - Cost: 3321 MP Heal: 3868 + 2 other targets for 1935
(ii) Resolving Vigor - Cost: 2394 S Heal: 3672 over 5s + nearby allies for 2832
(iii) Illustrious Healing - Cost: 2539 MP Heal: 801 evry 1s for 4s + target area only

3. Comparison III - medium armor full S glyphs, no att points allocated, no CP, medium armor cost spell reduction passive + template armor cost reduction (only)

(i) Breath of Life - Cost: 4069 MP Heal: 3068 + 2 other targets for 1535
(ii) Resolving Vigor - Cost: 1785 S Heal: 4590 over 5s + nearby allies for 3540
(iii) Illustrious Healing - Cost: 3112 MP Heal: 636 evry 1s for 4s + target area only

4. Comparison IV - medium armor full S glyphs, full stamina att, no CP, medium armor cost spell reduction passive + template armor cost reduction (only)

(i) Breath of Life - Cost: 4069 MP Heal: 3068 + 2 other targets for 1535
(ii) Resolving Vigor - Cost: 1785 S Heal: 5862 over 5s + nearby allies for 4524
(iii) Illustrious Healing - Cost: 3112 MP Heal: 636 evry 1s for 4s + target area only

5. Comparison V - light armor full MP glyphs, full MP att, no CP, light armor cost spell reduction passive (only)

(i) Breath of Life - Cost: 3321 MP Heal: 4931 + 2 other targets for 2466
(ii) Resolving Vigor - Cost: 2394 S Heal: 3672 over 5s + nearby allies for 2832
(iii) Illustrious Healing - Cost: 2539 MP Heal: 1020 evry 1s for 4s + target area only

To sum up, based on above i think the best heal in 1.6.x is Vigor. This skill is rly cheap - less than 1k stamina if u use stam reduce glyphs (compared to above mentioned skills) and uber effective.

I am not realy sure if it was good move ZOS to bring Vigor, i know (also as stamina user) that we rly needed a healing skill, but that.. Vigor is stronger and cheaper than templar heals, and imo templar is a "healing class", besides it's even stronger than Restoration Staff skills, so why we need a "Restoration Staff" at all... I think Vigor should work more like Mutagen/Rapid Regeneration, so increase Vigor's HoT duration to 10 s at least, it won't nerf it, but at least it will make it more comparable to other in game heals.

What's your opinion?

R.

TheLaw

Vigor is pretty powerful, ZOS definitely needs to take a look at it.

johnyeh87

Vigor is a HoT and Breath of Life is instant.

Ryuho

johnyeh87 wrote: »

Vigor is a HoT and Breath of Life is instant.

Cost twice less than Breath of Life, that's the point..

johnyeh87

Ryuho wrote: »

johnyeh87 wrote: »

Vigor is a HoT and Breath of Life is instant.

Cost twice less than Breath of Life, that's the point..

Okay, if that is the point. Never mind then :P

SanderBuraas

If they intend to nerf this skill, it would be an insult to leave it at alliance war skill line rank ten. It takes about half a year to obtain that rank. The bigger problem with this skill is how long it takes to obtain, and it's not even a pvp oriented skill. Stamina build pve players definitely need this ability as well.

A1exeR

You can spam Breath of Life as long as you do not end magic. You always get instant healing on targets that are in different places.
Illustrious Healing can stuck. One man can simultaneously hold 3 Illustrious Healing.
Vigor makes sense to use only every 5 seconds.
Now compare.

johnyeh87

But also, if you are a healer, vigor is nice because you don't want to have all your skills on the bar to have magicka cost. It's good to have at least 1 skill on each bar to have stamina.

Xiroku

Is Vigor healing it's tooltip amount over those 5 seconds? I almost feel like it's healing that amount per second.

I've seen some NBs and DKs who stack vigor and other heals, and they just don't die. Yesterday a DK had 4 players plus NPCs on him, took a good 5+mins to finally take him down. Even with heal debuffs, they were still able to outheal any damage dealt to them.

Something's not working right, or something's just plain wrong....

Father

Vigor should remain the way it is.
Its already hard to get by requiring rank 10 in alliance skill line, and its really rewarding when you get that rank
Stamina builds lack healing and this is a very crucial skill for every stamina build.

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO

Magic users are just mad that its a stamina heal, "GET OVER IT !" magic & light armor is no longer the go 2 build for everything, besides all your healing skills scale with magic from class abilities to resto staff and you want to cry about 1 stamina heal?

Full magic build will still be miles above any stamina build in terms of healing so stop your crying.

Mumyo

I dont know what i am a Templar for.
In PvP i feel like ***.
I was one of the staminatemplar pioneers and enjoyed the uniquness so much.
Now i dont feel like the most awesome choice for that anymore and i dont feel unique as healer too.
Who am i?
It is great that there is a heal now but maaaaan, i really have no idea yet what i should do in 1.6.

Reremnu

Illustrious Healing uses restored staff passives, it gets increased healing, vigor has no buffs from restored staff passives.

Not to mention for vigor healing you have to be inside a group(high risk), while healing spring is a targeted AOL, which can stack(caster can be far from group - low risk).

Breath of life is a ranged instant heal(low risk) which can be buffed by templar's passives.


Not to mention that vigor uses the same resource that is used for block, sprint and dodge, thus it has to be cheaper.

You can block cast healing springs and breath of life for longer than vigor alone. I'd agree with higher cost for a vigor only if we get separate resource for blocking, dodging and sprinting.

Father

Higher cost would gimp stamina builds

timidobserver

As a Templar healer I don't have an issue with Vigor. No HOT, no matter how strong, can compare to the burst heal of BOL.

The only real benefit to vigor is that ZOS has completely destoyed any hope of survivability for magicka builds and significantly buffed the survivability of stam builds, so being able to heal in medium armor would provide the benefit of being able to heal and maintain survivability.

DDuke

Vigor is definitely too strong, and I don't think ZOS should be focusing on giving stamina builds heals (or dmg shields) for survival, but instead focus on differentiating stamina builds from magicka more.

Give us better skills for mobility, better dmg mitigation (and make that mitigation matter by having higher TTK in the game), skills for evading damage etc.
Not this, not heals which every single magicka build was already running with.

It is not the way to bring build diversity into the game.

Wahee

I think many of you are missing a key part of the issue. Vigor is the only real stamina heal. Players maximizing weapon power and stamina will get great numbers out of vigor, but only vigor.

Magicka users using one single heal may not reach the same efficiency, but they have multiple other options to add into the mix, including shields as well as heals.

Compare it this way:

Vigor only vs. healing springs/breath of life/healing ward/ rapid regen. Vigor is efficient because it has to be, it is the only heal you have. Magicka users can output much more healing/shields (for more cost) than someone using just vigor can. Efficiency is one way to look at the effectiveness of skills, but certainly not the only way.

I think the numbers look about right when you factor this in.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Vigor seems a bit too strong, and too hard to get.

ToRelax

Wahee wrote: »

I think many of you are missing a key part of the issue. Vigor is the only real stamina heal. Players maximizing weapon power and stamina will get great numbers out of vigor, but only vigor.

Magicka users using one single heal may not reach the same efficiency, but they have multiple other options to add into the mix, including shields as well as heals.

Compare it this way:

Vigor only vs. healing springs/breath of life/healing ward/ rapid regen. Vigor is efficient because it has to be, it is the only heal you have. Magicka users can output much more healing/shields (for more cost) than someone using just vigor can. Efficiency is one way to look at the effectiveness of skills, but certainly not the only way.

I think the numbers look about right when you factor this in.

No, you stack Vigor with Rally and use the Rally burst heal when needed.

I actually with @DDuke here, especially since the low TTK is even taking diversity out of the magicka builds themselves, they have to stack shields to be competitive in 1.6 ...

timidobserver

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Vigor seems a bit too strong, and too hard to get.

I am fine with a really high-tier skill that takes some work to obtain being powerful. Who wants to work for something that is useless? However, if they make it easier to get, then it needs to be nerfed significantly. Requiring anything less than rank 24 should have the heal of it nerfed by at least 50% or a cast time added.

Kuro1n

It's fine, rank freaking 24! It is the skill that requires the hardest work in game (other than the emperor line I suppose).

Domander

Vigor is fine, it's a HoT. Yes, it's a good ability, as it should be for rank 10.

SickDuck

Kuro1n wrote: »

It's fine, rank freaking 24! It is the skill that requires the hardest work in game (other than the emperor line I suppose).

That. It is probably harder to get than the emperor skill line. The whole concept about this skill is missing a point. It's widely demanded and needed but pretty much noone will have it. Doubt that we can see it in PvE at all.

All_Bizniz

Smepic wrote: »

If they intend to nerf this skill, it would be an insult to leave it at alliance war skill line rank ten. It takes about half a year to obtain that rank. The bigger problem with this skill is how long it takes to obtain, and it's not even a pvp oriented skill. Stamina build pve players definitely need this ability as well.

if you want the ability... start grinding like everyone else

david.haypreub18_ESO

I would suggest that people don't lock themselves into a circular argument by saying it needs to be good because it is rank 10.

It doesn't need to be rank 10 at all. That's an arbitrary decision, and puts the skill out of reach for the vast majority of players: more than 98% most likely, and certainly more than 95%.

If you're fine with that, cool. Personally, though, I would prefer the skill to heal less and be available at a lower level. Otherwise, it will almost never be used, and certainly is not the healing salvation most people who play stamina builds are looking for.

Wahee

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I would suggest that people don't lock themselves into a circular argument by saying it needs to be good because it is rank 10.

It doesn't need to be rank 10 at all. That's an arbitrary decision, and puts the skill out of reach for the vast majority of players: more than 98% most likely, and certainly more than 95%.

If you're fine with that, cool. Personally, though, I would prefer the skill to heal less and be available at a lower level. Otherwise, it will almost never be used, and certainly is not the healing salvation most people who play stamina builds are looking for.

For my stam NB it is very much the healing salvation I have been looking for.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

vigor hits other people, thats the big problem. if it was self heal its fine; to have a whole raid of stam dps all healing each-other with super efficient group hot that follows you everywhere is beyond silly. How did anyone possibly think this is a balanced ability

TheBucket

I havent tried this skill but I can imagine its power when stacked with another HoT like Rally. Im worried about TTK in general in ESO

Wahee

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

vigor hits other people, thats the big problem. if it was self heal its fine; to have a whole raid of stam dps all healing each-other with super efficient group hot that follows you everywhere is beyond silly. How did anyone possibly think this is a balanced ability

I really fail to see how a group of stam players spamming vigor is any different than a group of magicka players spamming heals. In your example, they are at least using stam for heals and are more vulnerable to roots and CC. I think it is pretty wideley accepted knowledge at this point that there are superior options for magicka cost reduction and regen then there are for stam too.

There is a long list of cheese strategies for group pvp and somehow i doubt spamming vigor is going to trump them all. Almost every strong pvp group has a templar somewhere in the middle furiously pushing breath of life and I have no issue with that. Heals can be dubuffed, debuffs can be purged...play and counter play.

In the 1.5 meta stam builds barely carry their own weight in competitive group pvp. You can have a few stam players in your group, but more than just a few and the whole group suffers. When was the last time you saw a guild group running all stam builds? Now at least the stam players can carry their own weight in group pvp.

DDuke

Wahee wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

vigor hits other people, thats the big problem. if it was self heal its fine; to have a whole raid of stam dps all healing each-other with super efficient group hot that follows you everywhere is beyond silly. How did anyone possibly think this is a balanced ability

I really fail to see how a group of stam players spamming vigor is any different than a group of magicka players spamming heals.

This is the problem, and you said it yourself.

Stamina builds are supposed to play differently than magicka ones.

If you have everyone doing the same stuff in PvE/PvP regardless of what kind of character you play, you're going to get a boring game really quick.

Wahee

DDuke wrote: »

Wahee wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

vigor hits other people, thats the big problem. if it was self heal its fine; to have a whole raid of stam dps all healing each-other with super efficient group hot that follows you everywhere is beyond silly. How did anyone possibly think this is a balanced ability

I really fail to see how a group of stam players spamming vigor is any different than a group of magicka players spamming heals.

This is the problem, and you said it yourself.

Oh I don't disagree. In my perfect world dmg shields wouldn't stack, would be reduced 50% in size, and heals would all have a 100% cost increase. To balance this all health pools would be doubled. But if you say crazy things like that on a forum you'd get torn apart lol.

I don't like the heal/shield meta any more than you do, but if it is here to stay I'd like to play a stam build without knowing I'm hurting our group comp.