Alliance War 10 Grind Completely Unreasonable

Tankqull

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

PvPers have to grind undaunted passives and undaunted sets. PVErs have to grind the new pvp skills. I am okay with that.

Except the time spent on both endeavours isn't the least bit comparable.

That's the problem here. It's not that we want everything now in a plate, but rather just a bit more accessible.

Actually, the undaunted sets are less accessible given that they are completely open-ended. It could take a week or 5 years to get that light divine valkyn skoria helm and shoulder. With the PVP ranks, you know exactly what is necessary to reach the required rank.

5 years? Lol

Quite hyperbolic.

well for a pvper with the need of impenetrable and the need of a defined armortype thats exactly what it turns out to be for most of us - an unpredictable length of grind...

Seraphyel

Some skill lines just should be accountwide - e.g. Alliance War & Undaunted. Even all guilds should count for the whole account.

xylena

the game has changed a lot since release... some of us want to adapt to that change with a new race, class, or alliance and jump right into competitive pvp where we left off... not sure why some people think "wait 3 months, then you're allowed to play how you want" does anything other than make people get bored and stop playing

Armitas

I don't get to play much, 2hrs a day on the weekdays, 8hrs on the weekends. Some of that time goes to PvE. I got A10 so long ago I don't even remember when. I didn't grind it, I just did what I love, pvp, and I got it.

These are alliance skills, if you don't like pvp it's going to be a grind by nature, but remember, these are alliance skills... not PvE skills, even though they can be used in PvE.

We should all be able to make at least 20k an hour if we focus on it. I've made 100k an hour for 2 straight hours before. If it's dead repair every wall or flip a resource and defend it. Wait for every d.tick, defend more than you offend, run builds that get kills.

olsborg

I agree with OP. Casual gamers (with a life) can get Rank 10 in about 6 months(speaking from personal experience) and thats on ONE character, another 6 months for an alt and you end up just not making said alt.

I also think this is true for undaunted passives. They give a significant bonus for pvp, but can only be achieved by doing pve. Alot of people dont really like pve and especially grinding in pve. Bleh..

Weberda

It's interesting that this is all about a skill that isn't even in the game! How can anybody claim that it's a necessity to their build??!?!?!? I also seen posts by stamina builds who used this on the PTS and say they won't be using it on live (see one above). I think the whole argument is full of holes. And it's a PVP skill anyway. If you want it then meet me and @yodased on Haderus. We need the AP to get to rank 10.

Ryuho

"I also think this is true for undaunted passives.They give a significant bonus for pvp, but can only be achieved by doing pve. Alot of people dont really like pve and especially grinding in pve. Bleh.."

Exactly..

Besides, if dev forced pvp players to do pve to get key passives, pve player should be forced to do pvp then !!

kkampaseb17_ESO

Ryuho wrote: »

"I also think this is true for undaunted passives.They give a significant bonus for pvp, but can only be achieved by doing pve. Alot of people dont really like pve and especially grinding in pve. Bleh.."

Exactly..

Besides, if dev forced pvp players to do pve to get key passives, pve player should be forced to do pvp then !!

Not forced. But if you want everything, you gotta do everything.

Imagine if all PvP gear was BoP as the Trial items are atm. That would be fun.

Siluen

The undaunted passives are not nearly as grindy as the Alliance War ranks however. With less than an hour a day you can do both pledges and gain about 30 undaunted XP, plus you will gain some more for the dungeon achievements. Sure you will have to dedicate yourself to it a bit, but it is a steady source of XP for less than an hour a day of playing. Not to mention most people will want to do their daily gold pledge for a chance at one of the Undaunted shoulderpieces. It is a much more relaxing, casual and rewarding system.

The Alliance ranks, I got to First Sergeant myself (nearly grade 2) and have not always been PvPing equally actively. (I've experienced quite some time of crashing every 10 minutes, which kind of takes the fun out of going to Cyrodiil) Now that one of my PvP-loving friends returned, I am getting back into it, but boy is it slow. Spending several hours of intensively PvPing only results in the bar inching forwards, nor do I like the system of the Alliance ranks being divided into 2 grades. In my mind, the first grade feels extremely unrewarding to complete. I'm not the kind of player that wants everything handed to her, but it feels soooo slow.

My personal preference would be to move Vigor to rank 7, and swap it with Magicka Detonation. Another option would be to put it at 8 instead of 10 and leave Magicka Detonation in it's place, as I'm sure there are people that will like that one. This would actually make some sense, because when new Alliance skills are implemented, they would snugly fit in on rank 9 and 10.

Sacadon

Cody wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Kuro1n wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I have it on 2 characters. Stop making excuses and earn it like the rest of us! If it wasn't hard to get people wouldn't try for it. Stop trying to easy mode everything.

Farming people when you could insta-spawn at the keeps with unlimited camps is not the PVP of today. I challenge you to do it in the scope of today's PVP campaigns.

Ariana Kishi was created after the camp removal in November.

Ariana Kishi is AvA 26 already.

Ariana Kishi has been Empress Twice.


I think I beat your challenge 10 fold.

How much time do you spend playing per day? You are not exactly the average player in terms of playtime you know. The average player will have absolutely no chance of ever getting rank 10, I feel it is quite the task myself and I am known to be both quite the grinder. Of course if you play DK or some other aoe class it could potentially be easier but not everyone is playing those. Personally for me as a stamina NB it is hell. Perhaps that will change somewhat in the update but IMO swapping the skill from 10 to 8 is not very unfair considering you will still have a skill that is 'unique' that most people simply wont get.

EDIT: To be honest I just checked through a few of your vids on youtube and the highest AP/h I saw was something like 25k/h (that is not your average though as it was constantly ticking down, that means it is ~310 hours to get that rank 10, if we assume the average player spends 2-3 hours playing per day with maybe half of that AP/h we can quickly figure out he will have to spend a total of 249 days (unless i made a mistake calculating (((7,8kk/25k)/2.5)*2) playing PVP every day to reach there. You really feel that this skill should be given to players who have that amounts of time to spare while the rest of the casuals trail behind by faaaaaar?

Personally I think the CP advantage you will have will be enough, if you are truly a good player then you shouldn't need a ton of extra stats to perform good.

I won't have any CP advantage. My advantage in PvP comes from me putting forth more effort than you. If you want it; try harder. Unlocking level 10 should be a grind and so should such a cheap and vast heal. It only makes stam builds better and a increased gap to magicka.

ok, i will enjoy spending the next 6 months grinding my way to the new skill. I will manage it in my 3-6 hour a day periods, and by 6 months time i will have the rank. I will find time to play after the f*** ton of homework and work I have to do, and, again, over a period of 6 months, I will, maybe, have this rank.

but wait, what if they release an even BETTER skill by that point? which requires yet ANOTHER long, mind numbing grind?

Guess I had better stop using the build I have spent over 4 months creating and improving on, and turn my character's build into a boring AP farm build just so i can get one f***** ability. then spend even more gold and create more crap for the respec back to my old build; and that's after i am forced to level up skill lines i wont even use just to do it, and waste skill points on skills just to do this AP farming.

for f****s sake is this really what you want ESO to turn into? a boring grind


you got AVA 26 in just 2.5 months, good for you, but not everyone has that kind of time on their hands, and not everyone plays a build solely geared toward mass group fighting/AP gain. the average player does not generate 20K AP an hour, the average player does not generate 200K AP per day, the average player does not even play long enough to get that AP per day. If ZOS wants this game to succeed, they have to give both the hardcore peeps and the casual peeps some love. I don't mind grinds in general, but making one of the only 2 stamina based heals in the game take so long to get is close to cruel in my book, as most people are going to take over 5 months just to get to the rank. Meaning, for 5 months, I am going to be complete crap in PvP. How the hell is that fun? do you really think people bought this game to put up with that crap?

and do not give me the "you have to work for it" or "you should have to try to be good" you playing 16-20 hours a day ALREADY MAKES YOU BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE. so why is it such a problem that people want a stamina heal, which, again, is one of the only two in the entire game, to not take 3-5 months to get? I am sick of seeing people make the "you have to work to be good" argument. again, you playing twice the time most people do, makes you fantastic already, the fact you think people having access to a skill will really be that harmful to the game worries me.

im... sorry:/ this topic is important to me.


/sigh


alright, im done. Iv said enough.

It's distorted logic to think that unlocking a heal makes you a better player. Especially when many stamina builds run healing ward on their off bar for heals. No it's not optimal but it works.

FWIW, I travel a lot for work, so unfortunately I PvP only 2 evenings per week for about 4 hrs each. I just now got captain, whereas most of my guild already has Prefect or higher.

I do think that bringing AP/XP inline will help players that can't earn as fast, but doubt it will be significant.

I think making alliance rank account wide is a reasonable ask.

I think a reordered in of the skills received is a reasonable ask.

Still, none of these you need to be a competitive player. To max out and compete in duels, yeah it's going to help you. Anything worth having is usually worth working for.

eliisra

WolfingHour wrote: »

Two things. First, the discussion is about the skills not the gear. If you want to compare undaunted gear to anything in PvP do so to the elite vendor bags. Second, just because the probability of an event is low doesn't mean that it will never happen or that it will surely take long, which is something that you are trying to imply to fit your argument.

Side note - I also really hate rng. It's just as a mindless grind as all those alliance ranks.

Agreed, cant compare messed up loot distribution and gear, with unlocking skills. Hard earned PvP leader-board rewards, head farm, handing in gold keys, Master's Weapons and so on, it's the same *** everywhere with ESO rng, you can reach your goal in a day or never.

Skill grinds should be compared to other skills grinds. Only took me a few weeks maxing out Undaunted on 4 characters, doing a daily quest here and there. Mage's guild can be done in a day with addon. Fighters guild, a few days.

But it took me almost half a year to get level 10 assault/support on 1 single character. Of course you can get it faster, running around in a 8-12-man groups, spamming cheese and farming clueless rookies. Setting up farm spots, playing for AP exclusively. But I somehow doubt that's how PvP was intended to be played.

I think it's unwise altogether, having grinds that stretches over half a year in MMO's, because many players aren't even sure if they're still playing the game in some far away future. Level 8 assault/support feels more reasonable for last 2 Alliance skills. Would still take months for a new and more casual PvP'er, slowest grind in the game(beside possibly annoying fishing achievements). But you would at least be able to see the goal.

Digiman

I think that your AR is tied to the skill lines, because that's the only logical way why they are grindy to complete.

Compared to the other skill lines leveling this up is quite slow instead of difficult.

technohic

Do the later PvP skill line levels require more XP? I finally got back into PvP last night after spending most of my time grinding, I was 3/4 of the way to level 4 and I spent maybe 3 hours and I know I dinged level 4 somewhere about 2 hours in. It doesn't seem that bad. From my perspective after spending all this time PvEing just to get to VR14, I don't think I have much sympathy for PvEers that feel they need the skill.

Besides all of that; if they boost the gains in PvP as well as the underdog boost in AP gain, I like having this high up there as it could encourage people to play DC. I don't care if you are a PvEer, even meatbags are better than nothing. Just get in a group and listen in on teamspeak and follow orders and things will be just fine.

Siluen

technohic wrote: »

Do the later PvP skill line levels require more XP?

Yep, they do, the first few Alliance ranks you can complete relatively quickly, it becomes noticeably slow past rank... 12-ish, from my experience. ^^"

technohic

Siluen wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Do the later PvP skill line levels require more XP?

Yep, they do, the first few Alliance ranks you can complete relatively quickly, it becomes noticeably slow past rank... 12-ish, from my experience. ^^"

Will have to see how it goes then. I'm still kind of for the incentive to go to Cyrodiil a lot as well as encourage the underdog faction with a bonus though.

TheBull

yodased wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

[Edit]: @yodased It would probably also help you to look into the d-tick mechanics and such. You can get 60k AP/hr by just sitting at the right keep not doing anything (even more!). A dedicated day with good fighting can easily be 150K AP + if you are doing the right things (and that is solo).

150k AP per day doing nothing? Are you a Nigerian prince? I have sat at keeps doing nothing for days and never got 150k AP.

Why doesn't everyone have 4,500,000 AP at the end of the campaign? I mean I'm on Haderus so that may be why, but the most I have EVER seen on there has been < 1,000,000 and thats within 7 days or about 142,000 per 24 hour period.

That's why you don't deserve Alliance War Rank recruit!

Sacadon

technohic wrote: »

Do the later PvP skill line levels require more XP? I finally got back into PvP last night after spending most of my time grinding, I was 3/4 of the way to level 4 and I spent maybe 3 hours and I know I dinged level 4 somewhere about 2 hours in. It doesn't seem that bad. From my perspective after spending all this time PvEing just to get to VR14, I don't think I have much sympathy for PvEers that feel they need the skill.

Besides all of that; if they boost the gains in PvP as well as the underdog boost in AP gain, I like having this high up there as it could encourage people to play DC. I don't care if you are a PvEer, even meatbags are better than nothing. Just get in a group and listen in on teamspeak and follow orders and things will be just fine.

Yes. As your rank increases, so does the amount of XP required to reach the next.

Agreed @eliisra‌, it should not take casual players 2 or more years to reach max AvA level. The rate of progression is insanely slow and such that most casual players will probably never even unlock all the passives. Because of this, the only people that stay are there for other reasons for sure. I think the incentives for PvP are very weak and that they've held off on any changes because the current system cannot deal with existing players let alone an influx of new ones. Here's hoping they fix the design flaws and fix the progression sooner rather than later.

Maulkin

I agree with the sentiment of the OP especially around Vigor. Magicka Detonation, I have no issue with being AW10 as you wouldn't want that thing spammed by just everyone.

But without Vigor stamina builds are pigeonholed into playing 2H to get some heals from Momentum. Magicka builds can pick up a resto staff, but for stamina builds with low max magicka/ spell dmg the return is minuscule, so they can't do that.

I think Vigor should be AW 6, to encourage people to delve into PvP but not have to spend months to get such a core skill, thus discouraging them from doing that altogether. Vigor is not like Combat Frenzy, which is very nice but not essential. It is a pretty important skill for stam builds.

yodased

TheBull wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

[Edit]: @yodased It would probably also help you to look into the d-tick mechanics and such. You can get 60k AP/hr by just sitting at the right keep not doing anything (even more!). A dedicated day with good fighting can easily be 150K AP + if you are doing the right things (and that is solo).

150k AP per day doing nothing? Are you a Nigerian prince? I have sat at keeps doing nothing for days and never got 150k AP.

Why doesn't everyone have 4,500,000 AP at the end of the campaign? I mean I'm on Haderus so that may be why, but the most I have EVER seen on there has been < 1,000,000 and thats within 7 days or about 142,000 per 24 hour period.

That's why you don't deserve Alliance War Rank recruit!

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Obviously that was a joke towards the person saying you can get 100k ap an hour with D-ticks sitting at a keep.

OMG You actually think I was serious? Wow I needed that

yodased

technohic wrote: »

It doesn't seem that bad.

Alliance War Ranks

1 700
2 1600
3 8000
4 22400
5 48000
6 88000
7 145600
8 224000
9 326400
10 456000
11 616000
12 809600
13 1040000
14 1310400
15 1624000
16 1984000
17 2393600
18 2856000
19 3374400
20 3952000
21 4592000
22 5297600
23 6072000


24 6918400


25 7840000
26 8840000
27 9921600
28 11088000
29 12342400
30 13688000
31 15128000
32 16665600
33 18304000
34 20044600
35 21896000
36 23856000
37 25929600
38 28120000
39 30430400
40 32864000
41 35424000
42 38113600
43 40936000
44 43894400
45 46992000
46 50232000
47 53617600
48 57152000
49 60838400
50 64680000

cozmon3c_ESO

earn it! i have to earn undaunted rank ten and im like rank 6 from the start of the game, im not sweating over that, or bitching about it. do i want the undaunted passives, well yeah of course i do.

im a pvper, i earned my place in the ranks @ rank 27 now. i got here with absolutely zero incentives for ranking up. after rank 24 what is there....nothing. if anything they need to flesh out the other half of the pvp ranks with rewards. getting level 10 AVA was like 3 months of playing hard a 3-4 hours after work. i play mostly in small groups or solo. you do realize you get more for a kill if your not zerging right?

Sacadon

thx @yodased‌... this allowed me to graph it quickly. You can see how the XP gets crazy high for higher ranks.

yodased

comparing undaunted to alliance war is a strawman at best. They are completely different and undaunted for a new player is completely do-able within a manageable amount of time.

I get it, you are mad you had to do dungeons to get into the undaunted passives, but they are not the same.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out undaunted in less than 2 weeks. (I have personally done it 3 times now on 3 alts). It took me longer to get my main on it since I was at rank 5 when they introduced the passives and no retroactive so meh.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out alliance war in by the most possible way (25k per hour is what i have seen here) and that is still 12 full days. So take into account that MOST people play the game 2-4 hours a session and you get 72 days to get to rank 24. Thats at 25,000 AP PER HOUR played @ 4 hours a day.

Extrapolate that out to more reasonable time that people get about 10k per and you can see they are completely different.

It's honestly whatever to me, I am going to go pvp my little butt off to get to the level I want to be, but I understand why people are upset/confused/angry about the situation.

sicc

Not sure why the big deal about it being a grind. I play roughly 20 hours a week for the last 2 months and have managed vr8 on my sorc and rank 8 in pvp. Killing a vr14 solo it's getting me around 1k per kill. Just picking off people on siege equipment why defending gets me several k very quickly. Not seeing the issue.

yodased

I highly doubt you are getting 1k per kill every time you kill someone. You are incredibly lucky or you only fight people that are really good and don't die alot.

TheBull

yodased wrote: »

comparing undaunted to alliance war is a strawman at best. They are completely different and undaunted for a new player is completely do-able within a manageable amount of time.

I get it, you are mad you had to do dungeons to get into the undaunted passives, but they are not the same.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out undaunted in less than 2 weeks. (I have personally done it 3 times now on 3 alts). It took me longer to get my main on it since I was at rank 5 when they introduced the passives and no retroactive so meh.

Take a level 3 character and you can grind out alliance war in by the most possible way (25k per hour is what i have seen here) and that is still 12 full days. So take into account that MOST people play the game 2-4 hours a session and you get 72 days to get to rank 24. Thats at 25,000 AP PER HOUR played @ 4 hours a day.

Extrapolate that out to more reasonable time that people get about 10k per and you can see they are completely different.

It's honestly whatever to me, I am going to go pvp my little butt off to get to the level I want to be, but I understand why people are upset/confused/angry about the situation.

Honestly man your argument is what's wrong with mmorpg gamers today. You want it all, but don't want to invest to get it. People who pose arguments like yours are why the entire mmorpg experience has been cheapened.

You don't want to invest, you don't deserve it. It's as simple as that. It's a choice you have made.

edit- I didn't read your last paragraph. Good for you and happy hunting.

yodased

@‌thebull where do you see me saying I want something changed? I am presenting the facts. I am spending all my time in pvp, neglecting my pve guild i run to get the skills I want.

I literally am doing something I completely don't enjoy doing every single day for hours and hours and hours so I can get the skills I want.

I am the exact opposite of what you are trying to lump me into, so thanks for the generalization and stereotyping of me, even though its completely wrong.

kthanksbai.

TheBull

yodased wrote: »

@‌thebull where do you see me saying I want something changed? I am presenting the facts. I am spending all my time in pvp, neglecting my pve guild i run to get the skills I want.

I literally am doing something I completely don't enjoy doing every single day for hours and hours and hours so I can get the skills I want.

I am the exact opposite of what you are trying to lump me into, so thanks for the generalization and stereotyping of me, even though its completely wrong.

kthanksbai.

My edit to my post was made before I saw your post. Like I said, good for you, and happy hunting. I meant that.

Lets be clear you are not calling for vigor to be made easier to obtain?

WebBull

I thought it was originally rank 24.....did they drop it to 10?

yodased

No I am not calling for a change to it, I think that if the developers feel that the skill needs to be ground out I will grind it out. I may not be happy about it, but it is what it is.

Check my post history, I don't call for changes to anything I don't have control over.(which is exactly 0 things) If I didn't want it I wouldn't do it.

I can empathize with people that are upset, doesn't mean I agree with them or disagree with you!