Templar Jabs CC Immunity

technohic

pppontus wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Yeah, I am not sure why people want to hold on to it doing the CC it does now on live but at the same time, on test what appears to be our best stamina DPS winds up being a free CC immunity to our target.

The CC just needs to be removed from it or changed to be a snare/root.

I liked the suggestion above about it having a cooldown on the actual knockback, so if you chaincast it you only have a knockback every 3 times or so.

If its still my primary damage ability, I still don't like it. It becomes an issue of control to where I cannot spam my burst when needed unless I am willing to blow my CC and there are much better CCs to use in the game.

pppontus

technohic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Yeah, I am not sure why people want to hold on to it doing the CC it does now on live but at the same time, on test what appears to be our best stamina DPS winds up being a free CC immunity to our target.

The CC just needs to be removed from it or changed to be a snare/root.

I liked the suggestion above about it having a cooldown on the actual knockback, so if you chaincast it you only have a knockback every 3 times or so.

If its still my primary damage ability, I still don't like it. It becomes an issue of control to where I cannot spam my burst when needed unless I am willing to blow my CC and there are much better CCs to use in the game.

Makes sense! I'd say your opinion is probably more relevant as I rarely DPS with my Temp.

derpsticks

@technohic‌

What I mentioned above with respect to the cooldown idea that @pppontus is referring to is a cooldown on the actual knockback portion of jabs, such that there is no CC immunity at all during any cast of it ever.

The cooldown would only toggle if a knockback was going to happen or not at the end of the jabs.

So if a player hasn't used the skill in a while, the first time they use it there would be a knockback that would not trigger CC immunity.

If that same player used jabs right away by mashing their keyboard, the jabs would fire but since it was just used, the knockback at the end of the jabs would not trigger nor would any sort of CC immunity.

The difference being that implementing jabs this way supports players who need to use jabs for the damage, and would not ever trigger a CC immunity. At the same time, players who are being hit by the jabs will only receive a knockback once every 2 or 3 times their enemy spams the skill, giving them enough time to get clear/respond while preventing them from being stunlocked.

technohic

derpsticks wrote: »

@technohic‌

What I mentioned above with respect to the cooldown idea that @pppontus is referring to is a cooldown on the actual knockback portion of jabs, such that there is no CC immunity at all during any cast of it ever.

The cooldown would only toggle if a knockback was going to happen or not at the end of the jabs.

So if a player hasn't used the skill in a while, the first time they use it there would be a knockback that would not trigger CC immunity.

If that same player used jabs right away by mashing their keyboard, the jabs would fire but since it was just used, the knockback at the end of the jabs would not trigger nor would any sort of CC immunity.

The difference being that implementing jabs this way supports players who need to use jabs for the damage, and would not ever trigger a CC immunity. At the same time, players who are being hit by the jabs will only receive a knockback once every 2 or 3 times their enemy spams the skill, giving them enough time to get clear/respond while preventing them from being stunlocked.

Ah I get you. That would work for me.

Ezareth

timidobserver wrote: »

Since it grants immunity now, they should increase the stun duration by about 1-2 seconds or so. It sucks blowing an immunity on a knockback.

Templars aren't the only people who suffer from this.

Sorcs need to deal with it by their very short bolt escape stun triggering CC cooldown every time now as well. Any time we try to escape from a melee class we give them a free CC immunity by having to suffer through a short 2 second CC that they rarely need to break free from which makes using fragments less effective.

It is annoying yes, but CC has become less about using skill and making decisions in PvP and more about draining your opponent of stamina which to me isn't very fun.

snipeopsub17_ESO

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Since it grants immunity now, they should increase the stun duration by about 1-2 seconds or so. It sucks blowing an immunity on a knockback.

Templars aren't the only people who suffer from this.

Sorcs need to deal with it by their very short bolt escape stun triggering CC cooldown every time now as well. Any time we try to escape from a melee class we give them a free CC immunity by having to suffer through a short 2 second CC that they rarely need to break free from which makes using fragments less effective.

It is annoying yes, but CC has become less about using skill and making decisions in PvP and more about draining your opponent of stamina which to me isn't very fun.

I agree, personally I don't mind the change.

jopeymonster

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Since it grants immunity now, they should increase the stun duration by about 1-2 seconds or so. It sucks blowing an immunity on a knockback.

Templars aren't the only people who suffer from this.

Sorcs need to deal with it by their very short bolt escape stun triggering CC cooldown every time now as well. Any time we try to escape from a melee class we give them a free CC immunity by having to suffer through a short 2 second CC that they rarely need to break free from which makes using fragments less effective.

It is annoying yes, but CC has become less about using skill and making decisions in PvP and more about draining your opponent of stamina which to me isn't very fun.

The difference being that Bolt Escape is suppose to be just that, an escape. The design of the Escape/Streak are meant to maintain survivability, not be used as an offensive opener or spammable skill.

With Strikes/morphs, you are taking an offensive ability that due to the nature of the casting, is SUPPOSE to be spammable, and causing the use of it to negatively impact the caster.

Anyone thinking that I am defending the CC stun lock needs to re-read my posts. I am against the stun lock entirely. But punishing the caster by using a skill is not a good mechanic, and will lead to this skill being dumped completely in almost every PvP build. I would much rather just have the CC removed entirely and the skill reworked.

How would Sorcs feel if they were pigeonholed into a specific set of circumstances, and unable to fully utilize offensive aspects of a skill, because ZOS programmed bad design? OH WAIT - GCD on Crit Surge... ya, but no problem alleviating that issue right? Not like Templars have been suffering from GCD on skills since June of 2013?

I guess we will just find other skills to use in PvP instead of the ones we want.

AriBoh

Put the damage back up, remove the CC, give it a hefty 60-70% snare on primary target for 2 seconds? Lets those aware escape but still allows for more than 1 jab to happen before someone just walks back to avoid most of the damage.

Khivas_Carrick

So hang on, the skill can still be interrupted right? Or does that immunity apply to us? Or the other player breaking it? I r confuzzled

Cinbri

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3786429?t=1h11m16s some answer

Lettigall

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

So hang on, the skill can still be interrupted right? Or does that immunity apply to us? Or the other player breaking it? I r confuzzled

You don't get anything, enemy just need to be attacked by Jabs and get knocked back to gain CC immunity. This skill actually now works against caster.

zephyr_plopb16_ESO

Cinbri wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3786429?t=1h11m16s some answer

What did he say about Jab?? sorry he speak too fast for me

Lettigall

zephyr_plopb16_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3786429?t=1h11m16s some answer

What did he say about Jab?? sorry he speak too fast for me

Basically what he's saying: It was OP so we broke it!

zephyr_plopb16_ESO

Lettigall wrote: »

zephyr_plopb16_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3786429?t=1h11m16s some answer

What did he say about Jab?? sorry he speak too fast for me

Basically what he's saying: It was OP so we broke it!

I hope they will not nerf the damage

derpsticks

70% crit amounts to 1.35x average damage. Assuming we are doing at least 110% damage at no more than 1.35x the average we should be doing 148.5% damage to compensate.

Since the crit reads up to 70% I always assumed it was effectively between 45-55% which means we should be doing 135-140% to compensate.

In other words, I am perfectly fine with the drop from 170 to 140 because it makes perfect sense and is not a nerf.

Lettigall

derpsticks wrote: »

70% crit amounts to 1.35x average damage. Assuming we are doing at least 110% damage at no more than 1.35x the average we should be doing 148.5% damage to compensate.

Since the crit reads up to 70% I always assumed it was effectively between 45-55% which means we should be doing 135-140% to compensate.

In other words, I am perfectly fine with the drop from 170 to 140 because it makes perfect sense and is not a nerf.

I think most of the templars are fine with dmg reduction and it's not a topic here.

Varicite

Templars that feel unbreakable CC is fine as long as they are the only class that has one.

Oh forums....

Khivas_Carrick

I'm on with this actually. Little ehhh, but I'll live.

danno8

derpsticks wrote: »

70% crit amounts to 1.35x average damage. Assuming we are doing at least 110% damage at no more than 1.35x the average we should be doing 148.5% damage to compensate.

Since the crit reads up to 70% I always assumed it was effectively between 45-55% which means we should be doing 135-140% to compensate.

In other words, I am perfectly fine with the drop from 170 to 140 because it makes perfect sense and is not a nerf.

The "Up to 70%" thing is gone on the PTS, and it does not equate to 35% overall damage since it only begins to kick in at <50% health.

I did the math in the thread "Biting Jabs Buff or Nerf" somewhere around this forum but the gist of it is for single target it was a buff, for AoE a nerf.

Of course that did not include the CC immunity issue, just damage wise.

danno8

Varicite wrote: »

Templars that feel unbreakable CC is fine as long as they are the only class that has one.

Oh forums....

Actually most are ok with there being no knockback at all, as opposed to the 1 second knockback followed by CC immunity for 5 seconds.

That or replace it with a snare/root.

Lettigall

Varicite wrote: »

Templars that feel unbreakable CC is fine as long as they are the only class that has one.

Oh forums....

Please read comments before post ffs!!! No one is upset for removing perma stunlock, in fact, if you read comments not just title, you gonna see that's even supported by templars!

All the fuss is about fact that Jabs now won't allow you and your teammates to use real CC skills on enemy. And enemy only needs to take 1 jabs do get CC immunity.

AriBoh

What do people think about the removal of focused charges GCD? Usually I would shield charge in 1.5 then start to jab/sweep on my magicka temp but if focused actually works now I'd much rather be using it. Will this 1-2 combo still be viable you think? Sorry for the slight derail but I don't wanna give up my favourite temp move entirely.

danno8

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

What do people think about the removal of focused charges GCD? Usually I would shield charge in 1.5 then start to jab/sweep on my magicka temp but if focused actually works now I'd much rather be using it. Will this 1-2 combo still be viable you think? Sorry for the slight derail but I don't wanna give up my favourite temp move entirely.

This thread will answer your question:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149192/templar-charge-still-broken

AriBoh

Yeah but the guy on ESO live said that there was a GCD at all was a bug.

cwp303b14_ESO

I think a lot of people are not understanding what the issue Templars have with the new CC immunity.

Almost all Templars across the board support the nerf to perma stun from jabs. It was broken and not good for the game. The problem is that the "stun" is maybe 1 second long making it even worse than streak for sorcs giving CC immunity. We don't want perma stun. We also don't want free CC immunity given out on our premiere class damage ability.

With that out of the way I say the simplest solution is to make it an interrupt like crushing shock and venom arrow. It would hardly be reliable but, if it went off it would apply a proper CC. I don't see how any other class could complain about us having an interrupt at the end of a 1.1 second channel. I would love anyone to explain to me how that would not be fair.

Dredlord

Bouvin wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

Now with the usage of the jabs granting CC immunity I can no longer CC the target with any other form of CC effectively giving the target a no cost stun break. So even If I wanted to mix it up with say a jab and then toss a spear to knock them back it won't work, because the target has CC immunity completely nullifying the effectiveness of my other CC abilities, so I am actually handicapping myself by using one of my abilities that used to be effective. Why not help everyone who is tired of being stun locked or just stunned period? Make any ability that causes a stun grant CC immunity after the stun ends to the recipient of the stun. All stuns would then carry diminishing returns. This way we don't have to waste stamina breaking free, thus fixing the problem of the purported stamina transfer loss from live to 1.6 and those who choose to use stuns will have to be very tactical and creative in their usage and we could still stun break out of the stun when they chose to use it allowing stun recipients tactical usage of stun break. This way you have the option to stun break if you so desire should you have the stamina to do so and avoid the damage you would take while stunned or just take the free CC immunity that will come afterwards anyway. It's an all around win for everyone that might be worried about ever being stunned in PVE and PVP including the monsters who catch the brunt of it. The monsters rarely get a voice on the forums and I'm sure they're really tired of us taking their sweet rolls while they're stunned.
On the other hand I still enjoying wiping out monsters, but now if I miss time my jab anticipating interrupting an ability a monster would use, that is only interruptible with a stun I can't use a secondary stun to interrupt the ability, because they have CC immunity and neither can anyone else in the party. An example being the second wave Large spider during the third boss fight in Veteran Spindle Clutch where the Heavy attack could be interrupted with a jab preventing someone from getting knocked back if they didn't block. Now any templar could unwittingly provide CC immunity for monsters instead of actually crowd controlling the monster. Another example of PvP balancing or unbalancing having a dramatic effect on those of us who would like to continue PvE unmolested by such balance changes. A buddy of mine used to complain about all the stuns in PvP saying that it was ruining the experience, because he spent all of his time stunned. I would tell him to just stun break it's an easy fix and he would reply with, "but I don't want to." No worries buddy now you don't have to if it's a templar using jabs and he will keep you from being stunned by anyone else too, just eat it since it doesn't do that much damage either. Please come back and PvP with me, I'm sure forward camps will come back soon too and they'll make talons and petrify block able along with every other snare so you don't even have to dodge roll anymore.

Long live the Templar execute in all it's current DPS glory, Monsters might finally rightfully fear us for something other than "LF Temp healz for AA or HRC or Daily Pledge, Sorc healz need not apply." But wait, heals are getting reworked as well!

Wall of text crits you for 198k damage.

the problem was the KB at the end of each sentence kept me reading the whole dame thing...

since the other thread died I will repost here since there is a ridiculous notion biting jabs is a perma stun

Lets clear up a few things and suggest a viable alternative...

The CC immunity is obviously far too long compared to the duration of the CC.

One biting jabs makes the opponent immune for the next 4-5 jabs which is obviously ridiculous considering the ability is channeled which is easily interruptable and slows you for the duration.

the Immunity should last for the next 1-2 jabs at max in fact the immunity for all hard CC should be based off the duration of the CC.

Honestly is everyone so short sighted they can't see the simplest solution is shortening the immunity?

Other solutions (some mentioned already)

Change it to a 2 second stun same immunity.

Change it to a snare of at least the % of the casting slow.

Or just remove the immunity altogether again and ignore the vocal minority of those who have not learned the many ways to deal with it such as...

Hold block and block the very next jabs KB.

Bind bash to a key (double mouse buttons will fail you) and mash it, unless your ping is terrible it will interrupt the very next jabs or perform a breakout.

Bind dodge to a key (double tapping a direction will fail you) and dodge away from it.

Slot immovable, if it's not worth a slot on your bar then you're telling me the jabs KB isn't that bad.

Alcast

In its current state in 1.6.2 Puncturing Strikes is completly useless in both PvP and PvE.

There are really 2 options here for Puncturing Strikes.

Solution1: Let the knockback stay and remove the CC immunity and let the DMG stay at 140%.

Solution2: Let the knockback and the CC immunity stay as it is but boost the DMG back to 170%. So people can choose between a powerfull skill but with disadvantages like the enemies CC imunity.

I really loved the skill in PvE in 1.6.1 But now due to the lower dmg, Wrecking blow is like 2x the better choice...

Cinbri

i afraid after previous eso live they will leave this skill in this current useless state

C0pp3rhead

Dk's that spam talons have no right to complain on this thread.

Khivas_Carrick

Alcast wrote: »

In its current state in 1.6.2 Puncturing Strikes is completly useless in both PvP and PvE.

There are really 2 options here for Puncturing Strikes.

Solution1: Let the knockback stay and remove the CC immunity and let the DMG stay at 140%.

Solution2: Let the knockback and the CC immunity stay as it is but boost the DMG back to 170%. So people can choose between a powerfull skill but with disadvantages like the enemies CC imunity.

I really loved the skill in PvE in 1.6.1 But now due to the lower dmg, Wrecking blow is like 2x the better choice...

Totally not useless in PvE lol wth are you talking about.