MAgicka vs STamina

Exstazik

To max spell/weapon power for DPS:
4 martial knowledge+2 adroitness+2 Cyrodil light+3 torug's pact
(x5 spell damage+x1 max health)

or

x4 shadow walker+x3 dreugh king+ x4 Morag tong
(x5 weapon damage+x2 max stamina+x1 regen stamina)

As you can see stamina>magicka

Suggestion:add new magicka set or rewamp old to be compare for stamina and magicka users

Weapons:(all gold) On Pts each weapon add both stats :weapon and spell damage
*Without passives

Destruction Staff 1144 damage
x2 daggers 1373 damage
2h sword 1346 damage


Staff damage(magicka users) < weapon damage (stamina users) on ~20,017%

Suggestion: up staff damage to be compare with weapon damage


Buffs:
Entropy:+20% spell damage
Rally:+20 % weapon damage


Dawnbreaker:+8% weapon damage
Magicka users:None (really?!:D)



Suggestion:
Entropy:while slotted your spell damage is increased by 8%(minor buff).And remove major buff at all.


Armour:
Medium:+12% weapon damage
Light:Khmm....980 spell resist ignore (really?!:D)

Suggestion:
Light armour passive: Concetration:+12% spell damage


P.S.Right now stamina >magicka by 28%
Thanks for attention.

xMovingTarget

I dont like your suggestion about entropy. That would only nerf spell damage further.

Exstazik

xMovingTarget wrote: »

I dont like your suggestion about entropy. That would only nerf spell damage further.

entropy-minor buff
+add major spell buff as class buff

GreyBrow

yes please.

Simple solution...

But this will not happen because zeni has already decided to swing the massive nerf hammer at magicka users

Recremen

My experience on the pts was that magicka builds were still incredible for damage, survivability, and utility, and that stamina builds were finally being able to at least do damage, if not necessarily survive as long or have as much utility. Are you making these suggestions just based on the numbers, or was there also testing with skills?

Father

my experience is the same..Magicka builds were superior since they use all their stamina for blocking and dodging.
you can test it in dueling spots.

Nacario

I agree, magica makes u able to face any situation much easier compared to stamina

Exstazik

take any "stamina" weapon and check on how much % it will increase your spell damage compare to staff......ZOS logic is incredible

Recremen wrote: »

My experience on the pts was that magicka builds were still incredible for damage, survivability, and utility, and that stamina builds were finally being able to at least do damage, if not necessarily survive as long or have as much utility. Are you making these suggestions just based on the numbers, or was there also testing with skills?

Example:
1 weapon power gives to 2h Uppercut ~1,61 Damage
1 spell power gives to my sorc Crytsal fragment ~1,61 Damage

If i use 2h/daggers instead of destro it will give to me 20% to spell power.Logic?

Nivzruo_ESO

Exstazik wrote: »

To max spell/weapon power for DPS:


x4 shadow walker+x3 dreugh king+ x4 Morag tong
(x5 weapon damage+x2 max stamina+x1 regen stamina)

Dreugh is Heavy. Nobody is gonna be using that so lets go ahead and debunk this non sense.

Edited, It caps at v12 that's not so bad.

Exstazik

Dreugh

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

To max spell/weapon power for DPS:


x4 shadow walker+x3 dreugh king+ x4 Morag tong
(x5 weapon damage+x2 max stamina+x1 regen stamina)

Dreugh is Heavy. Nobody is gonna be using that so lets go ahead and debunk this non sense.

Edited, It caps at v12 that's not so bad.

Dreugh King Slayer x3:Pendant(necklace)+2h+1 piece heavy

Father

Heavy armor is more than viable now. Better than medium or light for pvp.
If you're worried about going OOM or OOS use reduction glyph its stackable and better than recovery or dmg glyph.

Detector

Why stamina more than magicka? Because stamina (except abilities) need for the block, dodge and sprint. Magicka only for abilities.

Exstazik

Detector wrote: »

Why stamina more than magicka? Because stamina (except abilities) need for the block, dodge and sprint. Magicka only for abilities.

agree stamina pool should be> magicka pool but also then
Stamina scale should<magicka scale

Soulac

Exstazik wrote: »

To max spell/weapon power for DPS:
4 martial knowledge+2 adroitness+2 Cyrodil light+3 torug's pact
(x5 spell damage+x1 max health)

4x Martial 2x Adroit 2x Cyro 2x Torug 2x Wormcult if you run DW..

DeLindsay

Sorry OP but no, this is the appropriate way to handle the 2 damage builds.

Magicka = Less DPS, much greater survivability/utility.

Stamina = More DPS, much less survivability/utility.

Lettigall

As mentioned before, stamina is used for block, breaking free, dodge and skills, but magicka ONLY for skills.

Stamina builds can only use light/heavy attacks when out of stamina and if slotted some magicka skill, it costs a lot and soon you are out of all resources.

Magicka bulds when out of stamina still can use all skills and burst damage. And even if magicka build out of mana, blocking and dodging can be used to survive enough until some mana regens.

Stamina < magicka

Exstazik

Lettigall wrote: »

As mentioned before, stamina is used for block, breaking free, dodge and skills, but magicka ONLY for skills.

Stamina builds can only use light/heavy attacks when out of stamina and if slotted some magicka skill, it costs a lot and soon you are out of all resources.

Magicka bulds when out of stamina still can use all skills and burst damage. And even if magicka build out of mana, blocking and dodging can be used to survive enough until some mana regens.

Stamina < magicka

Magicka bulds when out of stamina still can use all skills and burst damage.
OP view

Lettigall

Exstazik wrote: »

Magicka bulds when out of stamina still can use all skills and burst damage.
OP view

Nope magicka builds aren't OP, just stamina right know is used for to many things.

Khivas_Carrick

Magicka possesses superior AoE, and can technically last longer in a fight.

Stamina possesses superior ST, and can technically perform stronger burst.

Both can strive to survive but go about it differently.

The issue that arises from the two however is that Magicka can be used for only skills, including defensive ones to block event attacks via shields and armor spells, and once they run out, they can evade perfectly fine using their very full stamina bar.

Stamina users on the other hand can only use stamina to evade attacks, because most stamina builds don't use many Magicka spells, this wth gen they run out, that's that.

That's why their weapon damage is higher, to compensate for the lack of utility

Exstazik

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Magicka possesses superior AoE, and can technically last longer in a fight.

Stamina possesses superior ST, and can technically perform stronger burst.

Both can strive to survive but go about it differently.

The issue that arises from the two however is that Magicka can be used for only skills, including defensive ones to block event attacks via shields and armor spells, and once they run out, they can evade perfectly fine using their very full stamina bar.

Stamina users on the other hand can only use stamina to evade attacks, because most stamina builds don't use many Magicka spells, this wth gen they run out, that's that.

That's why their weapon damage is higher, to compensate for the lack of utility

Then ZOS should revamp it in such way:
Make bigger stamina pool for stamina users and decrease weapon power scale for stamina skills.It will provide equal dmg with magicka users and can do more block/run/evade/etc .

Khivas_Carrick

Nope, because spells hit nearly as hard as melee attacks and often times faster and from a distance

Exstazik

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Nope, because spells hit nearly as hard as melee attacks and often times faster and from a distance

DPS example:
(ABILITY + POWER × 10.46) × COEF
COEF Wrecking blow 0.149653471 (cast time 1 sec)
COEF Crystal Shard 0.149653471 (cast time 1 sec)

COEF ->>>>http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149498/new-dps-calculations#latest

Destruction Staff 1144 damage
2h sword 1346 damage


Staff User spell power:
1144+20%(entropy/surge/etc.)=1372,8

2h User weapon power:
1346+8% (Dawnbreaker)+12% (Medium passive)+20% (rally/momentum/)=(1346+107,68+161,52)*1,2=1938

numbers:

Wrecking blow 0.149653471*1938+10,56=3062,7

Crystal Shard 0.149653471*1372,8*10,69=2169,5

Stamina>magicka in 1,411 better

Now imagine: let's say both users(stamina and magicka) doing DPS and magicka user done10 000.Then Stamina user will do 14110

So please do not say such things as :" because spells hit nearly as hard as melee attacks" if they are not confirmed.

Xeniph

You have to keep in mind, that the majority of Magicka abilities are ranged. And in 1.6 the ranged Stamina abilities hit for far less then 1.5. Bringing all range, regardless of resource, closer damage wise. ( Unless Bow is bugged)

As far as melee, historically (in MMO's), these abilities have nearly always hit harder than ranged due to the risk of having to be up close vs far away.

Couple that with the fact that Stamina has to share it's pool with defensive abilities like Dodge Roll/Block/Bash and CC Break, common sense would dictate these abilities need to hit a bit harder to offset the drain on the pool to achieve the same DPS results that these defensives use up, with the same resource level.

It really all depends on what numerical value you would assign to these defensives in a typical fight. Obviously some fights are more than others, but generally I agree that having to share the Stamina pool with abilities that magicka users can use free from their main focus, should hit harder.

Sharee

Xeniph wrote: »

As far as melee, historically (in MMO's), these abilities have nearly always hit harder than ranged due to the risk of having to be up close vs far away.

Also due to the ease of target selection. A ranged attacker can, under circumstances, attack two targets one after another that are 70 meters away from each other. A melee combatant has to cross the distance first, which will cost him more resources and/or time just so he can continue to DPS, while the ranged attacker can DPS nonstop.

Exstazik

Xeniph wrote: »

You have to keep in mind, that the majority of Magicka abilities are ranged. And in 1.6 the ranged Stamina abilities hit for far less then 1.5. Bringing all range, regardless of resource, closer damage wise. ( Unless Bow is bugged)

As far as melee, historically (in MMO's), these abilities have nearly always hit harder than ranged due to the risk of having to be up close vs far away.

Couple that with the fact that Stamina has to share it's pool with defensive abilities like Dodge Roll/Block/Bash and CC Break, common sense would dictate these abilities need to hit a bit harder to offset the drain on the pool to achieve the same DPS results that these defensives use up, with the same resource level.

It really all depends on what numerical value you would assign to these defensives in a typical fight. Obviously some fights are more than others, but generally I agree that having to share the Stamina pool with abilities that magicka users can use free from their main focus, should hit harder.

Dodge Roll not fully agree (you can use sets such as After activating roll Dodge, Weapon Damage is increased by [x] and Spell Power is increased by [x] for y seconds)
Block=shields
CC Break-agree
Bash(charge)=strike/destructive touch/etc.
CC Break agree
STamina armour>magicka armour

Iduyenn

I think there are situations, where you cant compare raw damage numbers.
There are other factors, such as support (with new stamina heal) and other stuff.
Stamina Users will have a bigger issues to get Stamina-pools up to 40k (wich for a Mage inst a problem).

Since hybrid DPS will suck with 1.6 magicka users have stamina to support themselves (movement etc).
For stamina users ists their main ressource and it will be hard to come to 40k Stamina.

You could also argument, that melee DD`s will need more defence and movement. (I.e AA first Boss: Running).

You cant simply take two numbers, compara them and say: "They should be equal". You have to calculate other potentials like the possibility of support for the whole group.

DPS numbers depend on playstile and situation. So an other player can acchieve higer values with "*** builds".
You just cant balance this stuff to 1v1 numbers and be able to compare certain builds.

I admit it, i like it, that stamina is going to be well. And Magickabuilds will not be useless (like staminabuilds in the last year).

Solanum

Stamina in the current state, is still inferior to magicka builds.

Magicka can just stack on their main stat, and rely on shields and heals for their survivability.
Stamina stacking on damage will in fact be a glass cannon, not having anything close to what magicka can offer.
For stamina builds to have a measure of survivability they need to invest in health, which goes at the expense of stamina.

I am not asking for a nerf to magicka, I'm asking for a big fat buff to stamina builds to bring them on par with magicka builds. (And so far, in all honesty, we are making progress)

(EDIT, this post was written considering the state of the game after the patch 1.6)

Kromus

DeLindsay wrote: »

Sorry OP but no, this is the appropriate way to handle the 2 damage builds.

Magicka = Less DPS, much greater survivability/utility.

Stamina = More DPS, much less survivability/utility.

In current state of game, yes, but overall should be other way around. Stamina is already tied up to essential survival abilities: block, roll-dodge and break-free so it makes no logic for magicka build to be survival one.

Stamina = Endurance = "the ability of an organism to exert itself and remain active for a long period of time, as well as its ability to resist, withstand, recover from, and have immunity to trauma, wounds, or fatigue" = Survivability

Costismaros

Exstazik wrote: »

To max spell/weapon power for DPS:
4 martial knowledge+2 adroitness+2 Cyrodil light+3 torug's pact
(x5 spell damage+x1 max health)

or

x4 shadow walker+x3 dreugh king+ x4 Morag tong
(x5 weapon damage+x2 max stamina+x1 regen stamina)

As you can see stamina>magicka

Suggestion:add new magicka set or rewamp old to be compare for stamina and magicka users

Weapons:(all gold) On Pts each weapon add both stats :weapon and spell damage
*Without passives

Destruction Staff 1144 damage
x2 daggers 1373 damage
2h sword 1346 damage


Staff damage(magicka users) < weapon damage (stamina users) on ~20,017%

Suggestion: up staff damage to be compare with weapon damage


Buffs:
Entropy:+20% spell damage
Rally:+20 % weapon damage


Dawnbreaker:+8% weapon damage
Magicka users:None (really?!:D)



Suggestion:
Entropy:while slotted your spell damage is increased by 8%(minor buff).And remove major buff at all.


Armour:
Medium:+12% weapon damage
Light:Khmm....980 spell resist ignore (really?!:D)

Suggestion:
Light armour passive: Concetration:+12% spell damage


P.S.Right now stamina >magicka by 28%
Thanks for attention.

I dont understand guys.... Why you are doing this ? You cannot compare magicka with stamina or stamina with magicka. If you see that stamina is better, play stamina. If you see that magicka is better, play magicka. If you like both!Play both.

Exstazik

Costismaros wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

To max spell/weapon power for DPS:
4 martial knowledge+2 adroitness+2 Cyrodil light+3 torug's pact
(x5 spell damage+x1 max health)

or

x4 shadow walker+x3 dreugh king+ x4 Morag tong
(x5 weapon damage+x2 max stamina+x1 regen stamina)

As you can see stamina>magicka

Suggestion:add new magicka set or rewamp old to be compare for stamina and magicka users

Weapons:(all gold) On Pts each weapon add both stats :weapon and spell damage
*Without passives

Destruction Staff 1144 damage
x2 daggers 1373 damage
2h sword 1346 damage


Staff damage(magicka users) < weapon damage (stamina users) on ~20,017%

Suggestion: up staff damage to be compare with weapon damage


Buffs:
Entropy:+20% spell damage
Rally:+20 % weapon damage


Dawnbreaker:+8% weapon damage
Magicka users:None (really?!:D)



Suggestion:
Entropy:while slotted your spell damage is increased by 8%(minor buff).And remove major buff at all.


Armour:
Medium:+12% weapon damage
Light:Khmm....980 spell resist ignore (really?!:D)

Suggestion:
Light armour passive: Concetration:+12% spell damage


P.S.Right now stamina >magicka by 28%
Thanks for attention.

I dont understand guys.... Why you are doing this ? You cannot compare magicka with stamina or stamina with magicka. If you see that stamina is better, play stamina. If you see that magicka is better, play magicka. If you like both!Play both.

Only with free race change and account wide achievements.

Dracane

The person who has opened the thread, has a valid point. No reason to "LOL" him. His numbers are right and he simply made some suggestions.

Seriously, I don't get the point in that one light armor passive, which increase the spell pen by chance by 900+ O.o this is nothing, seriously nothing and is useless against damage shields.

Would be cool to replace it with a small increase to overall magic damage. Or maybe something more meaningfull. This passive is just useless and I don't know, who had the idea to change it like that. AT LEAST make it so, that it gives a major spell pen buff. Though I would prefer a minor spell damage buff.

About the rest: It is okay, if stamina users deal a bit more damage or have higher crit ratings. As it stands right now, it's pretty much fine. (this means, my opinion can change if ZoS is nerfing magic)