Vampires - It's not enough

MADshadowman

All my toons are vampires. I enjoy being a vampire, not only for the skills and passives, but also for RP reasons (even though i don't really RP).

Vampires were pretty strong in the beginning, maybe a little too strong, since then they have taken a good beating with the nerf hammer and now they feel like a collection of misadvantages with abilities that can't make up for that.

We take 50% more fire damage.
We have a 75% reduced health regen.
We're always in vampire form, so fighters guild abilities work on us at all times.

Of course there have to be some disadvantages, but what do we get for being so vulnerable?

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.

Drain Essence
Only useful in PVE, but not really worth replacing another skill with it. In PVP it rarely works. If the target is blocking or using immovable, the skill won't work. If you can really place it on a player, he just breaks out of it. After you used it once, even if it got cancelled immediately, you can't use it again on this target.

Mist Form
This used to be a good getaway move, before it was nerfed. Now you won't regen magicka while you're in mistform, which means you can't use it that much anymore and after several casts, you will be out of magicka and be very vulnerable.

We also have the feeding self-synergy, but it's so hard to place it in PVP and it does no damage, it only heals us and puts an unbreakable stun on the target. In 1.6 this will no longer be the case, since this patch makes the feeding synergy stun breakable. Obviously there were enough DKs that complained about other people having a counter to their invincibility. Thanks for that.

Then there are 6 passives, 2 of them are not worth taking: Savage feeding and blood ritual.

That's it, that's the vampire. There is not much that makes you feel like a vampire. Only 3 active skills? More looks like a party gimmick.

When i was testing stuff on the PTS i took a look at the WW skill line and was a little shocked, cause there were so many active skills and even though i haven't tested them, the option to fill an entire skillbar with these abilities is just amazing.

Why can't vampires have as many active abilities? This would allow us to really play a vampire and not just a hobby clown with some little tricks.

Here is a visual comparison of these 2 skill lines



That looks a little unfair to me, since we have to find someone that can bite us, or find npc vamps that bite us, then complete the vamp quest and live with our weaknesses and disadvantages AT ALL TIMES. We cannot toggle this on and off, we have to commit to this and stick with it.

This is not about making vamps OP, this is just about giving us more options to really play as a vampire, to make it feel like we're actual vampires.

Please no stupid vamp hate comments, please keep this discussion objective and constructive.

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

Darkeus

vamps rly need some buffs, and a remake for apereance!

Roechacca

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

MADshadowman

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Roechacca

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Their lowering the damage on fire for Vampire .

Sarru

This game is already Twilight Online. I think both vamp and WW should be nerfed.

Roechacca

Sarru wrote: »

This game is already Twilight Online. I think both vamp and WW should be nerfed.

I hear you on that . However , I think if they added more "special effects" , not necessarily new abilities for Vampire , those players that enjoy the class for RP would feel more immersed in their characters . Instead of asking for more abilities that can upset balance , I would suggest asking for cosmetic enhancements and special emotes .

SanderBuraas

What did you say about the bat swarm ultimate? It is the most used ultimate in the game, and also allows people to walk straight into trains of players (or masses of mobs in pve). I feel the only reason people choose to become a vampire currently ,is for the ultimate, or perhaps the sneak passive. I would like to see some more active skills for vampires that would actually be used in various builds, rather than just an escape skill.

MADshadowman

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Their lowering the damage on fire for Vampire .

Sadly, this changes nothing. For me personally the fire damage is not the issue. It's annoying but i can deal with it without using fire resistance jewelry.

MADshadowman

Smepic wrote: »

What did you say about the bat swarm ultimate? It is the most used ultimate in the game, and also allows people to walk straight into trains of players (or masses of mobs in pve). I feel the only reason people choose to become a vampire currently ,is for the ultimate, or perhaps the sneak passive. I would like to see some more active skills for vampires that would actually be used in various builds, rather than just an escape skill.

Yeah, but for that we would need these skills. With only 3 active skills, 1 being an ultimate, 1 being useless in pvp and 1 just being an escape skill, there is not much to see

Knootewoot

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

Gorthax

Are you not aware of how amazing a build becomes once you become vampire? There is a reason it is twilight online in pvp.......dont like weakness to fire? Put on fire resistance, problem solved >_<

Your ultimate is already devastating, no point in being in anything except stage 4. The mist form?! Lol that thing is the most annoying escape skill ever. Vampires are fine where they are. If anything, and this is just MY opinion, I say penalize them far worse than what they have right now. Just so the twinkle freaks in pvp go away.

The sheer power being a vampire gives should come at a steep cost sorry.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Soulac

Don't forget the 30% shard proc
I'll drop my vamp as NB in 1.6 cause vampire is *** nowadays.
More fire dmg (DKs are full of that), less health Reg, far more incoming dmg.
More disadvantages than advantages..

Roechacca

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

WW should be able to transform any time they want . The full moon thing is the Count Chocula legend ...

MornaBaine

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Their lowering the damage on fire for Vampire .

And upping the proc on Silver Bolts. Vamps are $cr3w3d in PvP now despite having a little better survivability in dungeons where fire bosses are so often the order of the day. So that was really, "Here's a piece of candy. Now hold still while I whack you over the head with this baseball bat. What? Why are you complaining? I GAVE you a piece of candy darn it!"

MADshadowman

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

The ESO vamps are immune to sunlight by lore, and we established that many times now.

MADshadowman

Gorthax wrote: »

Are you not aware of how amazing a build becomes once you become vampire? There is a reason it is twilight online in pvp.......dont like weakness to fire? Put on fire resistance, problem solved >_<

Your ultimate is already devastating, no point in being in anything except stage 4. The mist form?! lol that thing is the most annoying escape skill ever. Vampires are fine where they are. If anything, and this is just MY opinion, I say penalize them far worse than what they have right now. Just so the twinkle freaks in pvp go away.

The sheer power being a vampire gives should come at a steep cost sorry.

You might have noticed that i don't care about the fire damage. i just listed it so the weaknesses are complete. And thanks for your constructive non-vamp-hate comment.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Roechacca

MornaBaine wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Their lowering the damage on fire for Vampire .

And upping the proc on Silver Bolts. Vamps are $cr3w3d in PvP now despite having a little better survivability in dungeons where fire bosses are so often the order of the day. So that was really, "Here's a piece of candy. Now hold still while I whack you over the head with this baseball bat. What? Why are you complaining? I GAVE you a piece of candy darn it!"

I must of missed that part in the patch notes . So they bumped a fighters guild ability ? That's going to effect PVP I see .

MADshadowman

roechacca wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Their lowering the damage on fire for Vampire .

And upping the proc on Silver Bolts. Vamps are $cr3w3d in PvP now despite having a little better survivability in dungeons where fire bosses are so often the order of the day. So that was really, "Here's a piece of candy. Now hold still while I whack you over the head with this baseball bat. What? Why are you complaining? I GAVE you a piece of candy darn it!"

I must of missed that part in the patch notes . So they bumped a fighters guild ability ? That's going to effect PVP I see .

Yes, but they lowered the proc damage, so it's not one-shotting undead again.

Roechacca

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

That is true, but you have more variety when you are in ww form and if you're not in ww form, you don't have disadvantages, but you have +15% stam regen.

Their lowering the damage on fire for Vampire .

And upping the proc on Silver Bolts. Vamps are $cr3w3d in PvP now despite having a little better survivability in dungeons where fire bosses are so often the order of the day. So that was really, "Here's a piece of candy. Now hold still while I whack you over the head with this baseball bat. What? Why are you complaining? I GAVE you a piece of candy darn it!"

I must of missed that part in the patch notes . So they bumped a fighters guild ability ? That's going to effect PVP I see .

Yes, but they lowered the proc damage, so it's not one-shotting undead again.

Wait . They lowered the proc on Silver bolts or upped it ?

MornaBaine

MADshadowman wrote: »

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

ROFL! Thanks! As to the rest of your OP, I couldn't agree more. While it's true that werewolves only get ALL those goodies during their brief transformation via their ultimate I, and most werewolf players I know, think it's a pretty awful system. What's the point of being a werewolf if you can ONLY do it during combat and can only sustain it by continuously remaining in combat and being forced to do things that leave you vulnerable? You'll notice you STILL don't see transformed werewolves in PvP almost ever. There's a reason for that.

MADshadowman

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Roechacca

MADshadowman wrote: »

As i stated before, this is not about making vamps OP or about PVP so don't get all whiny and scared, this is about making the vampire more fun to play and offer more variety

Unfortunately when ever you discuss new abilities , you throw the flair in the PVP communities cave . We have to crawl out an take a look now ...

MornaBaine

Also, they've apparently decided to NOT have werewolves and vampires be adversely affected by the Justice System despite Paul Sage saying that guards "would not like" transformed werewolves and Stage 4 vampires. This would have necessitated changes to the Stage timers and have given much needed incentives to feed as there is currently ZERO reason (aside from the cosmetic) to ever be anything but Stage 4. Apparently there was enough outcry from the PvP crowd who has repeatedly said, "Don't you DARE do anything that "forces" me to leave Stage 4 ever for any reason" that they decided to listen to that faction rather than those of us who have advocated for vampires to actually be more challenging to play. Or maybe ZOS just continues to be lazy when it comes to the vampire and werewolf skill lines, which they didn't want to make playable in the first place and only stuck us with the half baked mess we have at the last moment when it became apparent that TES fans were not prepared to adopt a game that did not have these staples from the previous games.

I have come to the conclusion that vampires and werewolves are the unwanted red headed step children of ESO and it's likely to remain that way. Heck they won't even give us the cosmetic options we've begged for in the cash shop even though they know very well that tons of vampire players would pony up the $$ for them.

AriBoh

Undeath got a massive nerf in 1.6. Down to 6% damage reduction

TheShadowScout

The way I see it, the reason vamps have only a few skills and werewolves more is that vamps get to keep using their other skills, while for doggies its either human form + other skills -OR- werewolf form + werewolf skills. So they needed enough skills in WW form to fill their slots...
So, no reason for vamps to get skillbar-envy here...

eventide03b14a_ESO

Gorthax wrote: »

Are you not aware of how amazing a build becomes once you become vampire? There is a reason it is twilight online in pvp.......dont like weakness to fire?Put on fire resistance, problem solved >_<

Your ultimate is already devastating, no point in being in anything except stage 4. The mist form?!Lol that thing is the most annoying escape skill ever. Vampires are fine where they are. If anything, and this is just MY opinion, I say penalize them far worse than what they have right now. Just so the twinkle freaks in pvp go away.

The sheer power being a vampire gives should come at a steep cost sorry.

Seriously? Aside from the sneak passive nothing else about them is useful or OP. Batswarm isn't as great as people make it out to be. The fire damage is easy to get around so who cares about reducing it further? I agree with the OP they simultaneously castrated the vampire while buffing the werewolf. Now they are completely out of balance.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

MornaBaine

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The way I see it, the reason vamps have only a few skills and werewolves more is that vamps get to keep using their other skills, while for doggies its either human form + other skills -OR- werewolf form + werewolf skills. So they needed enough skills in WW form to fill their slots...
So, no reason for vamps to get skillbar-envy here...

Skill bar envy...I haz it. LOL I FEEL like there should be enough vamp skills to fully fill out your bar and they should really be worthwhile. As it is, I use NONE of my vamp skills in PvP because for my Sorc there are far too many better options. And for PvE all I typically use from the vamp line is Drain. So even what little we DID get...is pretty crappy. I WANT to be able to go all vamp, all the time. I DON'T want to play a Sorc with a couple "vampy" spells and a bad skin condition and weakness to fire. But that's what I have.

Roechacca

MornaBaine wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The way I see it, the reason vamps have only a few skills and werewolves more is that vamps get to keep using their other skills, while for doggies its either human form + other skills -OR- werewolf form + werewolf skills. So they needed enough skills in WW form to fill their slots...
So, no reason for vamps to get skillbar-envy here...

Skill bar envy...I haz it. LOL I FEEL like there should be enough vamp skills to fully fill out your bar and they should really be worthwhile. As it is, I use NONE of my vamp skills in PvP because for my Sorc there are far too many better options. And for PvE all I typically use from the vamp line is Drain. So even what little we DID get...is pretty crappy. I WANT to be able to go all vamp, all the time. I DON'T want to play a Sorc with a couple "vampy" spells and a bad skin condition and weakness to fire. But that's what I have.

I see the your problem now ... Right there .

BBSooner

I tend to agree. IMO they should reign in the usefulness of the current vampire skills and add 3 more skills - making each skill a little more "situationally desirable" instead of "always take skill X".

Lynx7386

At least you don't have to use a "vampire form" that takes up an ultimate slot, costs a boatload of ultimate to use, only lasts for a few seconds, and prevents you from using any class, weapon, armor, guild, or other skills while active.

Werewolves are in need of major improvements imo.