Vampires - It's not enough

MADshadowman

And remember: this is not a thread where you can express your vamp hate. This is about expanding the skill line. if you cannot stay at that topic, then please feel free to leave and read something else. Thank you.

Mikoto

MADshadowman wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

nope.

Yes. Play any TES games and run into town with stage 4 vampirism or in WW form.

What can i say? Just nope. This is not any TES game, this is an MMO. You can't just make vampires kos by everybody, this is not how it works. The game has to be still playable as a vampire. There might be some guard reactions in a later update, but i think kos is not the right way to go. npcs could just refuse to talk to you, which means you can't do quests, unless you get down to a lower vampire stage. This makes way more sense for a rpg than just stupid vamp bashing by every npc in the game.

It is playable, go stage 1 vampire and you can still do quests with stage 4. It's simple just avoid towns with patrolling guards because those are the only people that's going around knocking people or player enforcers.

If you want to pull the MMO card then SWG had the same mechanic with Jedi. Use a force ability in public and you become KoS by players, hunters, and NPCs so you had to be smart to blend in and not wave it around aka running around with stage 4 in broad daylight.

MADshadowman

Mikoto wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

nope.

Yes. Play any TES games and run into town with stage 4 vampirism or in WW form.

What can i say? Just nope. This is not any TES game, this is an MMO. You can't just make vampires kos by everybody, this is not how it works. The game has to be still playable as a vampire. There might be some guard reactions in a later update, but i think kos is not the right way to go. npcs could just refuse to talk to you, which means you can't do quests, unless you get down to a lower vampire stage. This makes way more sense for a rpg than just stupid vamp bashing by every npc in the game.

It is playable, go stage 1 vampire and you can still do quests with stage 4. It's simple just avoid towns with patrolling guards because those are the only people that's going around knocking people or player enforcers.

If you want to pull the MMO card then SWG had the same mechanic with Jedi. Use a force ability in public and you become KoS by players, hunters, and NPCs so you had to be smart to blend in and not wave it around aka running around with stage 4 in broad daylight.

I don't care about other games, i care about this one and as a part of the vampire community, i just want being a vampire to feel good and immersive. If kos gets added, then we need a better and more interesting skill line to make up for that anyway.

I will end this kos discussion now, cause it's not the topic we are discussing here.

Mikoto

MADshadowman wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to make Vamps be kos to all npc and guards when in stage 4 vamp.

nope.

Yes. Play any TES games and run into town with stage 4 vampirism or in WW form.

What can i say? Just nope. This is not any TES game, this is an MMO. You can't just make vampires kos by everybody, this is not how it works. The game has to be still playable as a vampire. There might be some guard reactions in a later update, but i think kos is not the right way to go. npcs could just refuse to talk to you, which means you can't do quests, unless you get down to a lower vampire stage. This makes way more sense for a rpg than just stupid vamp bashing by every npc in the game.

It is playable, go stage 1 vampire and you can still do quests with stage 4. It's simple just avoid towns with patrolling guards because those are the only people that's going around knocking people or player enforcers.

If you want to pull the MMO card then SWG had the same mechanic with Jedi. Use a force ability in public and you become KoS by players, hunters, and NPCs so you had to be smart to blend in and not wave it around aka running around with stage 4 in broad daylight.

I don't care about other games, i care about this one and as a part of the vampire community, i just want being a vampire to feel good and immersive. If kos gets added, then we need a better and more interesting skill line to make up for that anyway.

I will end this kos discussion now, cause it's not the topic we are discussing here.

I do agree with the bolded parts.

jelliedsoup

I propose a new title for this thread:

"Vampires - It will never be enough, unless ESO becomes Twilight Online".

MADshadowman

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I propose a new title for this thread:

"Vampires - It will never be enough, unless ESO becomes Twilight Online".

Declined.

I don't know what you guys have with the twilight stuff. i've never seen any of these movies. But i know enough to say that these are no vampires. I like the classic vampire, the seducer, a very strong and mighty creature that also has weaknesses. The balance between strength and weakness is what makes them interesting.

I wanna feel as a vampire, and we need more vampy skills for that. This will change nothing about the balance, we're talking about just regular abilities, nothing crazy. And with more skills to choose from, there will be less bat swarming. It's just the only ability now that works.

wraith808

Mikoto wrote: »

It is playable, go stage 1 vampire and you can still do quests with stage 4. It's simple just avoid towns with patrolling guards because those are the only people that's going around knocking people or player enforcers.

If you want to pull the MMO card then SWG had the same mechanic with Jedi. Use a force ability in public and you become KoS by players, hunters, and NPCs so you had to be smart to blend in and not wave it around aka running around with stage 4 in broad daylight.

If it's so 'simple' to avoid, then why do it at all?

Mikoto

wraith808 wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

It is playable, go stage 1 vampire and you can still do quests with stage 4. It's simple just avoid towns with patrolling guards because those are the only people that's going around knocking people or player enforcers.

If you want to pull the MMO card then SWG had the same mechanic with Jedi. Use a force ability in public and you become KoS by players, hunters, and NPCs so you had to be smart to blend in and not wave it around aka running around with stage 4 in broad daylight.

If it's so 'simple' to avoid, then why do it at all?

Because it's immersion. The same reason why we have first person combat. It's simple to do tps combat so why work on first person and it's animations. It's simple to take things out of baskets so why have justice system.

Everything has a work around but there's thing in there to fit the immersion of it being a tes game.

PlagueMonk

MADshadowman wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

All my toons are vampires. I enjoy being a vampire, not only for the skills and passives, but also for RP reasons (even though i don't really RP).

Vampires were pretty strong in the beginning, maybe a little too strong, since then they have taken a good beating with the nerf hammer and now they feel like a collection of misadvantages with abilities that can't make up for that.

We take 50% more fire damage.
We have a 75% reduced health regen.
We're always in vampire form, so fighters guild abilities work on us at all times.

Of course there have to be some disadvantages, but what do we get for being so vulnerable?

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.

Drain Essence
Only useful in PVE, but not really worth replacing another skill with it. In PVP it rarely works. If the target is blocking or using immovable, the skill won't work. If you can really place it on a player, he just breaks out of it. After you used it once, even if it got cancelled immediately, you can't use it again on this target.

Mist Form
This used to be a good getaway move, before it was nerfed. Now you won't regen magicka while you're in mistform, which means you can't use it that much anymore and after several casts, you will be out of magicka and be very vulnerable.

We also have the feeding self-synergy, but it's so hard to place it in PVP and it does no damage, it only heals us and puts an unbreakable stun on the target. In 1.6 this will no longer be the case, since this patch makes the feeding synergy stun breakable. Obviously there were enough DKs that complained about other people having a counter to their invincibility. Thanks for that.

Then there are 6 passives, 2 of them are not worth taking: Savage feeding and blood ritual.

That's it, that's the vampire. There is not much that makes you feel like a vampire. Only 3 active skills? More looks like a party gimmick.

When i was testing stuff on the PTS i took a look at the WW skill line and was a little shocked, cause there were so many active skills and even though i haven't tested them, the option to fill an entire skillbar with these abilities is just amazing.

Why can't vampires have as many active abilities? This would allow us to really play a vampire and not just a hobby clown with some little tricks.

Here is a visual comparison of these 2 skill lines

That looks a little unfair to me, since we have to find someone that can bite us, or find npc vamps that bite us, then complete the vamp quest and live with our weaknesses and disadvantages AT ALL TIMES. We cannot toggle this on and off, we have to commit to this and stick with it.

This is not about making vamps OP, this is just about giving us more options to really play as a vampire, to make it feel like we're actual vampires.

Please no stupid vamp hate comments, please keep this discussion objective and constructive.

I'd also like to involve our spokeswoman @MornaBaine‌ in this discussion.

This is like beating a dead horse but I will play one more time.....
The reason WHY WWs line looks better is because they have to transform to get all those abilities. Vamps get them on the fly. That's the trade off, deal with it. Plus if you had a full slate of Vamp abilities you would be running around in stage 4 with that 60% cast reduction, being able to endlessly spam your abilities (you know, kind of like Vamps do now only MORE)

I continue to laugh at Vamps claiming they are somehow "weak" now because they have been nerfed repeatedly. There is good REASON for that. As a player I should be able to choose NOT to be a Vamp or WW and be JUST as powerful as you are. Otherwise it is unfair to those who dislike those choices.

And while bats is not as FToM as it was a few months ago, it is still very prevalent on the PvP battlefield. I am still seeing it pop up on my death tally so it's more than a simple "good" ultimate. This might change a bit more with 1.6 however with the way ULT is generated. Can't tell atm.

You have a lot of great passives that you seem to be sweeping under the rug as "insignificant".

If you really want "more" then a couple things have to happen:

1) You and WWs need to be more vulnerable to the Fighters skill line.

2) The moment you become a WW or Vamp you lose access to all Fighters Guild skill lines and passives (just like you lose access to your transform lines if you cure yourself)

3) Fighters Guild needs to have comparable passives to the Vamp and WW. So I will feel just as powerful as a Vamp or WW investing in the Fighters skill line.

4) Make the Justice system take notice of and react adversely to stage 3-4 Vamps or transformed WWs.

You agree to those 4 things and you Vamps and WWs can knock yourselves out.

If you're not a vamp, then this is not a discussion for you. We are vamps and we want more options for playing as vamps. This is important to us and we don't want more "power" we just want different abilities to add more variety to the vampire gameplay.

And yet I feel compelled to respond because of the title of the thread and what you are wanting.

As I explained above, giving Vamps more abilities makes them more versatile and they will just sit at stage 4 spamming all those abilities with a 60% cost reduction.

You want more ****? Then NON-Vampire (and non-WW) players deserve just as much "flavor".

Changing Vampires does have an effect on us non-Vamps, so you can't demand we not participate.

EsORising

They did add a really cool morph for vamps but it's broken on the PTS. Increase movement speed by 40% after a drain. Animation works but skill is broke.

Rylana

oren74 wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bat swarm
A good AOE that does damage and heals and sticks with you. But it got nerfed, first 25% less damage, then 30% less healing. Now it's not a real danger anymore. I can't remember the last time i died through bat swarm or really killed someone with it.
quote]

Ahhh, no. Batswarm is still a top 5 ultimate in the game for vamp NBs. Sap and bats, with tri-pots still makes me an virtually unkillable DPS machine for a time bats are running...with sap recharging ultimate at times enough to pop bats again if nobody throws a negate down.

1.6 that changes a bit with ultimate generation change, but we'll see.

We're not discussing classes + vamps here, this is only about vamps. And it is in no way stronger than other ultimates and the only negative effect on targets is that they take damage, nothing else happens. no stun, no root, no snare, no disorient, no fear, just damage and the damage can easily be outhealed or outshielded, or you can just run or dodge roll out of it. There is nothing really impressive about it. You need at least 4-5 people around you to get so much healing, that you're hard to kill, but with 4-5 people that are attacking you, you can still die pretty easily

you're struggling here.

vamps benefit sneaky assassin style playersthe most.

I love the fast sneak, the get into sneak fast at night, the batswarm, and the stage 4 health regen deal is not an issue for me because I use the Shadow Walker set.

I will say for me, the vamp skills are useless...but I see people using them in PvP and PvE, so someone is finding value in putting 1 or 2 in their 10 skill options.

lolno, you should see the raw hilarity an AOE DPS sorc can put out with clouding swarm, mistform, and streak. Its like an invisible cloud of death, and with the ultimate cost reduction passive only sorcs have, bats are 118 for former emps in terms of cost.

Mine are literally up full time if I want them to be, I unfortunately have to do this thing called negating from time to time.

Stealthy assassin? not even close.

Siluen

(Now that I have written this all down, I apologize in advance for the wall of text.)

As a vampire player, the strengths and weaknesses seem like a very mixed bag. A lot of players probably have batswarm spam engraved into their memories, and this is pretty understandable. Even as a vampire going into Cyrodiil myself, I often get annoyed at people that find way to keep that thing up with maybe a second or two downtime.

I do feel that the insane abuse of batswarm spam is more of a combination of factors instead of just the batswarm. I most certainly do not get to swarm as often and in PvP, it is not even to be found on my bar. One problem will be fixed come 1.6: a nightblade's piercing mark will now reveal a vampire in a clouding swarm, which is a damn good change. Because one of the most nasty things about clouding swarm was the fact the person inside was spamming a whole bunch of abilities one cannot even see and not being able to do a whole lot about it. Alongside this there is the problem of builds with such insane ultimate regeneration, that a powerful AoE ultimate that costs as little as batswarm does in stage 4 becomes way too everlasting.

When it comes to the weaknesses. In PvP, vampires take 9% extra damage from every player that has 3 skillpoints to spare for the fighter's guild skillline, and I am actually cool with this. The skillline should not just be benefits. Silver shards is also quite potent and do not even get me started on the nasty people that ambush you with Camouflaged Hunter. I hate you guys. But still, it requires somewhat of a dedicated choice in a very anti-Undead and Daedra skillline, which seems fitting.

I also dabble in PvE however, and this is where the vampire weakness really shows: 50% extra fire damage. (To be 40% in 1.6 for now) The amount of dungeons that have fire-themed bosses in them is overwhelming and even though our little group of 3 vampires and 1 normal healer can take on every veteran dungeon thusfar, City of Ash turned from a hard dungeon into an impossible task, Firemaw only had one fire attack, so he was doable. Ash Titan was... Good grief... So difficult, especially since he seemed to be bugged out in his add spawns (spawning them at 65% and 60%...). We managed to take him down because he got stuck. Not sure if we could have done it otherwise with the bugged add-spawn and the huuuuuge amount of fire. But at Valkyn Skoira we eventually gave up after a *** of wipes. An already rather difficult fight made approximately 50% more difficult. Owch.

Testing out the lowered resistance in vet Wayrest on the PTS, I got absolutely oneshotted by a trashmob with a fire attack twice. (It dealt 27k damage at one point, I was wearing 5M/2H and heaving about 19k health, also, I'm a Dunmer) so yeah, the weakness may have been lowered, but is still incredibly nasty in PvE now that the healthpools are relatively a lot lower, my 19k health not being the lowest hitpointpool in our party at all.

Tl/dr: Vampires take 9% added damage from all players that have 3 skillpoints to spare, which is alright, but do remind yourselves of this as this basically includes.... well... everyone. There are also a bunch of pretty good anti-vampire skills up for grabs. But the fire weakness is absolute murder in PvE, as fire seems to be the most popular theme for dungeon-bosses by far. Vampirism is part of my character, in so far I would rather not be able to complete certain content than remove it. But it sure is a love-hate relationship at times.

ThisOnePosts

As someone who has played Vamp, WW, and neither extensively ---- I will say right now I prefer neither. There are more cons than pros and both Vamp and WW need a serious overhaul to make them fun and worthwhile. The sneak speed is the only thing I really like atm from the Vamp line.... the WW line just looks kinda cool but that's about it.

If you are going to stand out like a sore thumb in Cyrodiil.. the least they can do is make them fun to play. So for now, I have decided to only keep a vamp and a ww on alts to test any changes and my main chars will stick with neither until there's a good reason for me to change that.

Tonnopesce

Trolling aside if they boost vamps and without a real disadvantage to be a werewolf now tell me what is the point to be uman in this game anymore?

Now that for unknow reason i can go vamp stage 4 or in werewolf form even in the cityes whitout be kos by the guards no umans will be left in the game population

Screw the lore i want to be OP

bertenburnyb16_ESO

@ OP

first learn how WW works,
al the "active" skills replace your current bar when you use your ultimate, so u cant use any of those skills only the short time while in WW form, while vamp abilitys can be used always
second batswarm is still really good and cheap, espesially compared with WW ulti wich is expensive, and it isn't really that strong (alot of people claim to have better dps out of WW form, but I'll leave that in the middle) also adding to this is that it replaces all your current skills the ulti itself does no damage, while compared to batswarm, that does damage and your regular skills
Also you dont regen ulti when in WW form, so when it ends your bar is at 0, while batswarm in an enemy blob, u can recast it when it ends
thirdly, the transform animation and the need to feed constantly to try & get some extra sec (and if the player respawns it doesnt even refill time you just wasted it on feeding) makes it sluggish

although there are some changes comming to WW, to help keep it up in combat, vamp is still better in pvp and I still dont think WW is completely right

MornaBaine

Siluen wrote: »

(Now that I have written this all down, I apologize in advance for the wall of text.)

As a vampire player, the strengths and weaknesses seem like a very mixed bag. A lot of players probably have batswarm spam engraved into their memories, and this is pretty understandable. Even as a vampire going into Cyrodiil myself, I often get annoyed at people that find way to keep that thing up with maybe a second or two downtime.

I do feel that the insane abuse of batswarm spam is more of a combination of factors instead of just the batswarm. I most certainly do not get to swarm as often and in PvP, it is not even to be found on my bar. One problem will be fixed come 1.6: a nightblade's piercing mark will now reveal a vampire in a clouding swarm, which is a damn good change. Because one of the most nasty things about clouding swarm was the fact the person inside was spamming a whole bunch of abilities one cannot even see and not being able to do a whole lot about it. Alongside this there is the problem of builds with such insane ultimate regeneration, that a powerful AoE ultimate that costs as little as batswarm does in stage 4 becomes way too everlasting.

When it comes to the weaknesses. In PvP, vampires take 9% extra damage from every player that has 3 skillpoints to spare for the fighter's guild skillline, and I am actually cool with this. The skillline should not just be benefits. Silver shards is also quite potent and do not even get me started on the nasty people that ambush you with Camouflaged Hunter. I hate you guys. But still, it requires somewhat of a dedicated choice in a very anti-Undead and Daedra skillline, which seems fitting.

I also dabble in PvE however, and this is where the vampire weakness really shows: 50% extra fire damage. (To be 40% in 1.6 for now) The amount of dungeons that have fire-themed bosses in them is overwhelming and even though our little group of 3 vampires and 1 normal healer can take on every veteran dungeon thusfar, City of Ash turned from a hard dungeon into an impossible task, Firemaw only had one fire attack, so he was doable. Ash Titan was... Good grief... So difficult, especially since he seemed to be bugged out in his add spawns (spawning them at 65% and 60%...). We managed to take him down because he got stuck. Not sure if we could have done it otherwise with the bugged add-spawn and the huuuuuge amount of fire. But at Valkyn Skoira we eventually gave up after a *** of wipes. An already rather difficult fight made approximately 50% more difficult. Owch.

Testing out the lowered resistance in vet Wayrest on the PTS, I got absolutely oneshotted by a trashmob with a fire attack twice. (It dealt 27k damage at one point, I was wearing 5M/2H and heaving about 19k health, also, I'm a Dunmer) so yeah, the weakness may have been lowered, but is still incredibly nasty in PvE now that the healthpools are relatively a lot lower, my 19k health not being the lowest hitpointpool in our party at all.

Tl/dr: Vampires take 9% added damage from all players that have 3 skillpoints to spare, which is alright, but do remind yourselves of this as this basically includes.... well... everyone. There are also a bunch of pretty good anti-vampire skills up for grabs. But the fire weakness is absolute murder in PvE, as fire seems to be the most popular theme for dungeon-bosses by far. Vampirism is part of my character, in so far I would rather not be able to complete certain content than remove it. But it sure is a love-hate relationship at times.

You are exactly right. I don't think I use a single vamp ability when I go into Cyrodiil. As a Sorc there are just too many others that make more sense. And any time I am out there and die I'd say at least half the time it's to someone using abilities specifically targeted towards vamp killing. I'm actually cool with that part but it lets me know darn well that vampires are not so much more powerful than everyone else that they still need to be gimped. They don't, they really don't! LOL I'm tired of cries for "balance" when what that means is that everyone has an equal chance to kill anyone else. What's the point of even having classes then? Build should matter. Good builds will be darn near insta-death towards some other builds and insta-kill to other good but "opposite" builds. THAT is balance.

When we ask for more vamp abilities we're NOT asking to be "more powerful" than everyone else. We're asking for abilities that work just like others already in the game but animated FOR vampires. We need a vampire specific stun, root, aoe, single target damage, and an escape. We sort of have a couple of those (when they work which is definitely not always) but are lacking the others.

Werewolves are not fully what they are all the time. Though they are certainly less restricted than real world lore werewolves which are bound to the moon cycles. However, they SHOULD maintain all their passives and weaknesses while in human form. This would be in keeping with the fact that they are indeed werewolves and therefore have to live their lives a bit differently than regular folks.

As to the KOS discussion, I am completely FOR Stage 4 vampires and transformed werewolves being KOS to city guards. There NEEDS to be an incentive to feed and right now there is absolutely none. However, along with that, they would NEED to change the Stage Times. Stage 1 is FAR too short. Either equalize the stage timers or switch the times of Stage 1 and Stage 3. The latter would probably make the most sense.

Mikoto

MornaBaine wrote: »

Siluen wrote: »

(Now that I have written this all down, I apologize in advance for the wall of text.)

As a vampire player, the strengths and weaknesses seem like a very mixed bag. A lot of players probably have batswarm spam engraved into their memories, and this is pretty understandable. Even as a vampire going into Cyrodiil myself, I often get annoyed at people that find way to keep that thing up with maybe a second or two downtime.

I do feel that the insane abuse of batswarm spam is more of a combination of factors instead of just the batswarm. I most certainly do not get to swarm as often and in PvP, it is not even to be found on my bar. One problem will be fixed come 1.6: a nightblade's piercing mark will now reveal a vampire in a clouding swarm, which is a damn good change. Because one of the most nasty things about clouding swarm was the fact the person inside was spamming a whole bunch of abilities one cannot even see and not being able to do a whole lot about it. Alongside this there is the problem of builds with such insane ultimate regeneration, that a powerful AoE ultimate that costs as little as batswarm does in stage 4 becomes way too everlasting.

When it comes to the weaknesses. In PvP, vampires take 9% extra damage from every player that has 3 skillpoints to spare for the fighter's guild skillline, and I am actually cool with this. The skillline should not just be benefits. Silver shards is also quite potent and do not even get me started on the nasty people that ambush you with Camouflaged Hunter. I hate you guys. But still, it requires somewhat of a dedicated choice in a very anti-Undead and Daedra skillline, which seems fitting.

I also dabble in PvE however, and this is where the vampire weakness really shows: 50% extra fire damage. (To be 40% in 1.6 for now) The amount of dungeons that have fire-themed bosses in them is overwhelming and even though our little group of 3 vampires and 1 normal healer can take on every veteran dungeon thusfar, City of Ash turned from a hard dungeon into an impossible task, Firemaw only had one fire attack, so he was doable. Ash Titan was... Good grief... So difficult, especially since he seemed to be bugged out in his add spawns (spawning them at 65% and 60%...). We managed to take him down because he got stuck. Not sure if we could have done it otherwise with the bugged add-spawn and the huuuuuge amount of fire. But at Valkyn Skoira we eventually gave up after a *** of wipes. An already rather difficult fight made approximately 50% more difficult. Owch.

Testing out the lowered resistance in vet Wayrest on the PTS, I got absolutely oneshotted by a trashmob with a fire attack twice. (It dealt 27k damage at one point, I was wearing 5M/2H and heaving about 19k health, also, I'm a Dunmer) so yeah, the weakness may have been lowered, but is still incredibly nasty in PvE now that the healthpools are relatively a lot lower, my 19k health not being the lowest hitpointpool in our party at all.

Tl/dr: Vampires take 9% added damage from all players that have 3 skillpoints to spare, which is alright, but do remind yourselves of this as this basically includes.... well... everyone. There are also a bunch of pretty good anti-vampire skills up for grabs. But the fire weakness is absolute murder in PvE, as fire seems to be the most popular theme for dungeon-bosses by far. Vampirism is part of my character, in so far I would rather not be able to complete certain content than remove it. But it sure is a love-hate relationship at times.

You are exactly right. I don't think I use a single vamp ability when I go into Cyrodiil. As a Sorc there are just too many others that make more sense. And any time I am out there and die I'd say at least half the time it's to someone using abilities specifically targeted towards vamp killing. I'm actually cool with that part but it lets me know darn well that vampires are not so much more powerful than everyone else that they still need to be gimped. They don't, they really don't! LOL I'm tired of cries for "balance" when what that means is that everyone has an equal chance to kill anyone else. What's the point of even having classes then? Build should matter. Good builds will be darn near insta-death towards some other builds and insta-kill to other good but "opposite" builds. THAT is balance.

When we ask for more vamp abilities we're NOT asking to be "more powerful" than everyone else. We're asking for abilities that work just like others already in the game but animated FOR vampires. We need a vampire specific stun, root, aoe, single target damage, and an escape. We sort of have a couple of those (when they work which is definitely not always) but are lacking the others.

Werewolves are not fully what they are all the time. Though they are certainly less restricted than real world lore werewolves which are bound to the moon cycles. However, they SHOULD maintain all their passives and weaknesses while in human form. This would be in keeping with the fact that they are indeed werewolves and therefore have to live their lives a bit differently than regular folks.

As to the KOS discussion, I am completely FOR Stage 4 vampires and transformed werewolves being KOS to city guards. There NEEDS to be an incentive to feed and right now there is absolutely none. However, along with that, they would NEED to change the Stage Times. Stage 1 is FAR too short. Either equalize the stage timers or switch the times of Stage 1 and Stage 3. The latter would probably make the most sense.

Yeah stage 1 is too fast. 30 minutes egh, before you know it you're losing stages. 1 -> 2 needs to be long then 2 ->3 is shorter and 3->4 is the shortest. On top of kos stage 4 add vampire covens that gives out blood potions that bump up a single level but with cool down so you can't spam into stage 1.

MADshadowman

Please don't always bring up ww. You can discuss this in your own thread.

You want more counters for vampires? Is fire damage and a whole skill line dedicated to killing undead not enough?

If you haven't played a vamp, then you have no idea how little you feel as a vamp and how little of your "powers" actually work.

Forget about bat swarm, this is not about bat swarm. Your inability to differentiate between 1 ultimate and a broken skill line is alarming and annoying. Please make sure you understand the root of the problem we're discussing here before commenting.

MornaBaine

To interject with, "You can have THIS only when I can have THAT," adds nothing to the discussion and indeed derails it. My suggestion is that all further such posts be ignored and reported when they are obviously trolling.

ebls_BR

MADshadowman wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

The ESO vamps are immune to sunlight by lore, and we established that many times now.

This is so conveniently wrong. First, Eso is an Elder Scroll game, and by lore (read Vampires of the Iliac Bay, Chapter II, for instance; play Oblivion or Skyrim and you'll see) Vampires have weakness to sunlight. Anyone who plays ESO for RP reasons can't accept this.

Second, vampires have a basic mythology, a core of characteristics that precedes ESO, and must be followed (weakness to sunlight is one of them), otherwise you risk of misrepresent the essence of the vampire, ruin all RP and, honestly, being completly ridiculous. Let me give an example: Let's say I'll make a WW that looks like an WW, but have the ability to cling to walls and shoot mechanical webs (like spider man...). Serious, vampires that don't have weakness to sunlight (going against the TES lore...) sounds equally ridiculous.

Third, who established that? If even UESP says different.

MADshadowman

ebls_BR wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

The ESO vamps are immune to sunlight by lore, and we established that many times now.

This is so conveniently wrong. First, Eso is an Elder Scroll game, and by lore (read Vampires of the Iliac Bay, Chapter II, for instance; play Oblivion or Skyrim and you'll see) Vampires have weakness to sunlight. Anyone who plays ESO for RP reasons can't accept this.

Second, vampires have a basic mythology, a core of characteristics that precedes ESO, and must be followed (weakness to sunlight is one of them), otherwise you risk of misrepresent the essence of the vampire, ruin all RP and, honestly, being completly ridiculous. Let me give an example: Let's say I'll make a WW that looks like an WW, but have the ability to cling to walls and shoot mechanical webs (like spider man...). Serious, vampires that don't have weakness to sunlight (going against the TES lore...) sounds equally ridiculous.

Third, who established that? If even UESP says different.

It is a different strain of vampires and it is indeed covered by the lore.

From UESP:

Lamae's Bloodline
Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility. A particular way of acquiring this strand of vampirism is through the Rite of the Scion, in which a mortal's blood is fully replaced by that of Lamae Bal herself. This rite turns mortals into Scions, a more powerful variety of vampires. It is also the only way for a soul shriven to be infected with this strand of vampirism. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel. These vampires don't worship Molog Bal but rather they hate him, this is in accordance with Lamae's will, having new recruits profane symbols of Molag Bal is part of the rite of scion ritual.

You're welcome.

Tonnopesce

MADshadowman wrote: »

Please don't always bring up ww. You can discuss this in your own thread.

You want more counters for vampires? Is fire damage and a whole skill line dedicated to killing undead not enough?

If you haven't played a vamp, then you have no idea how little you feel as a vamp and how little of your "powers" actually work.

Forget about bat swarm, this is not about bat swarm. Your inability to differentiate between 1 ultimate and a broken skill line is alarming and annoying. Please make sure you understand the root of the problem we're discussing here before commenting.

Actually as i can read the OP has put ww as a comparison term for balance the skill lines.

My only proplem with vamps is that they are actually "monsters" who walk around in pretty dresses.
If we compare the SP tes in that game the player and maybe 10-20 more npc where vamps ( i'm not counting the killable ones around the world.
Told this in eso we (assuming) have 500 players in a zone,between them 300 are vampires and 150 are WW and only 50 are "uman".
I agree that vamps should be (at the same level and at the same " power") a lot more stronger than a "normal" player and in this line of balance the fighters guild skill line works well.
But no real cons are put in place to avoid that the population will embrace the shadows ( a x fire weakness is ridiculos since flame resistance gliphs can be crafted to rebalance a while the gap).
Right now as all the vamps are allowed to use the figters guild skill line, all the vamps can walk around in the cityes in stage 4 and under direct sunlight the only way to avoid that all the playerbase become vampires is to make quite worthless to spend skill points in it..

IMHO

ebls_BR

I see. The same UESP, says: "Vampires are NPCs in afflicted with Vampirism. The disease causes them to physically change, giving them pale skin and glowing eyes. Vampires are blessed supernatural powers and but their condition makes them vulnerable to sunlight and fire. Vampires are undead and therefore vulnerable to magical effects aimed at the undead."

So in ESO lore we have both vampires that have weakness to sunlight and the vampires that don't have... Sounds more conveniently wrong for me.

MADshadowman

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Please don't always bring up ww. You can discuss this in your own thread.

You want more counters for vampires? Is fire damage and a whole skill line dedicated to killing undead not enough?

If you haven't played a vamp, then you have no idea how little you feel as a vamp and how little of your "powers" actually work.

Forget about bat swarm, this is not about bat swarm. Your inability to differentiate between 1 ultimate and a broken skill line is alarming and annoying. Please make sure you understand the root of the problem we're discussing here before commenting.

Actually as i can read the OP has put ww as a comparison term for balance the skill lines.

My only proplem with vamps is that they are actually "monsters" who walk around in pretty dresses.
If we compare the SP tes in that game the player and maybe 10-20 more npc where vamps ( i'm not counting the killable ones around the world.
Told this in eso we (assuming) have 500 players in a zone,between them 300 are vampires and 150 are WW and only 50 are "uman".
I agree that vamps should be (at the same level and at the same " power") a lot more stronger than a "normal" player and in this line of balance the fighters guild skill line works well.
But no real cons are put in place to avoid that the population will embrace the shadows ( a x fire weakness is ridiculos since flame resistance gliphs can be crafted to rebalance a while the gap).
Right now as all the vamps are allowed to use the figters guild skill line, all the vamps can walk around in the cityes in stage 4 and under direct sunlight the only way to avoid that all the playerbase become vampires is to make quite worthless to spend skill points in it..

IMHO

The comparison is just an explanation how i came to this topic, this is not a ww discussion.

And no, we're no monsters. We are highly intelligent and sophisticated beings with slight skin problems. We walk and we talk just the way you do.

MADshadowman

ebls_BR wrote: »

I see. The same UESP, says: "Vampires are NPCs in afflicted with Vampirism. The disease causes them to physically change, giving them pale skin and glowing eyes. Vampires are blessed supernatural powers and but their condition makes them vulnerable to sunlight and fire. Vampires are undead and therefore vulnerable to magical effects aimed at the undead."

So in ESO lore we have both vampires that have weakness to sunlight and the vampires that don't have... Sounds more conveniently wrong for me.

No offense, but fortunately nobody really cares how that sounds to you. It is a strain, that does not weaken in sunlight. Period. Run up the walls, stand on your head, do whatever you want, you're not changing the lore only because you think it should be different.

ebls_BR

MADshadowman wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

I see. The same UESP, says: "Vampires are NPCs in afflicted with Vampirism. The disease causes them to physically change, giving them pale skin and glowing eyes. Vampires are blessed supernatural powers and but their condition makes them vulnerable to sunlight and fire. Vampires are undead and therefore vulnerable to magical effects aimed at the undead."

So in ESO lore we have both vampires that have weakness to sunlight and the vampires that don't have... Sounds more conveniently wrong for me.

No offense, but fortunately nobody really cares how that sounds to you. It is a strain, that does not weaken in sunlight. Period. Run up the walls, stand on your head, do whatever you want, you're not changing the lore only because you think it should be different.

That's the entire point. Seems ESO changed the Lore in this matter, not only the TESO Lore but the vampire mythology, just to make them playable. I really don't know how someone who have played Skyrim (even Vampire Lords have weakness to sunlight...) or Oblivion (you were literally burned under the sunlight) can't feel strange about that, especially for someone who has vampires for RP, like yourself.

And I know my opinion or my feelings almost nothing matter for writers or for the community (like yours), but as a person who plays with vampires for RP (I have three), who has 700h of Morrowind, 1200h in Oblivion and almost 2000h in Skyrim (with vampires in both games...), has 6 VR14 (having almost finished everything in Cadwell's Gold, etc.) I think I have the right to legitimately (based on lore) disagree with that direction taken in the game.

And I'm not alone on that. I'm not the only who cares about that. Just make a little search for topics in TES community, oficial forums, TES wiki, etc., this issue is always mentioned. I joined a Role Playing guild in ESO and people don't feel right about vampires... So, people, TES fans (prior to ESO fans) care about that.

MornaBaine

MADshadowman wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I think Vampires should be UBER STRONG.

However,

Werewolves only should appear at night at a full bloodmoon, uncontrolled. Also they should be able to attack friendlies.

Vampires should die at a ray of sunlight.

Note: I am vamp myself (unwillingly, as i need to be one to kill one due to stacking speed buffs. not anymore, but i prefer my armor above the nightsomething armor so i need to be vamp)

The ESO vamps are immune to sunlight by lore, and we established that many times now.

This is so conveniently wrong. First, Eso is an Elder Scroll game, and by lore (read Vampires of the Iliac Bay, Chapter II, for instance; play Oblivion or Skyrim and you'll see) Vampires have weakness to sunlight. Anyone who plays ESO for RP reasons can't accept this.

Second, vampires have a basic mythology, a core of characteristics that precedes ESO, and must be followed (weakness to sunlight is one of them), otherwise you risk of misrepresent the essence of the vampire, ruin all RP and, honestly, being completly ridiculous. Let me give an example: Let's say I'll make a WW that looks like an WW, but have the ability to cling to walls and shoot mechanical webs (like spider man...). Serious, vampires that don't have weakness to sunlight (going against the TES lore...) sounds equally ridiculous.

Third, who established that? If even UESP says different.

It is a different strain of vampires and it is indeed covered by the lore.

From UESP:

Lamae's Bloodline
Lamae Beolfag was the first of her kind but like her successors, she created a bloodline. Vampires of this particular bloodline have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria rather than Porphyric Hemophilia or Sanguinare Vampiris, as a consequence these Vampires do not burn or weaken in sun but rather become more powerful once night falls, they have their own set of abilities as well some shared by other bloodlines such as invisibility. A particular way of acquiring this strand of vampirism is through the Rite of the Scion, in which a mortal's blood is fully replaced by that of Lamae Bal herself. This rite turns mortals into Scions, a more powerful variety of vampires. It is also the only way for a soul shriven to be infected with this strand of vampirism. The exact name of this bloodline is unknown but they were extremely common in the second era and were not limited to any particular areas as they could be encountered nearly all over Tamriel. These vampires don't worship Molog Bal but rather they hate him, this is in accordance with Lamae's will, having new recruits profane symbols of Molag Bal is part of the rite of scion ritual.

You're welcome.

Pretty sure this "lore" was written BY ESO and the ability to have no daylight penalties just screams "because MMO." There will be those who argue that it is NOW lore but I will contend that it is BAD "lore." There ARE ways they could have handled the vampiric weakness to sunlight. First, day and night cycles should have been of equal time. Second, this weakness should simply not apply in dungeons or any indoor situation. Third, there could have been higher tier passives to mitigate the sun damage and potions available via the alchemy skill line that could have also removed the sun damage while active. This would have still made vampires completely playable during daylight but would have made them more challenging. And, dare I say?... it would have made them feel more like vampires.

MADshadowman

Well, i didn't make the lore. We just have to adapt to it, there is no other way around. I would go so far to say our hp regen could actually be the sunlight weakness in a form, but that means it should go up at night.

And of course are there changes to the lore in a franchise that goes on for that long, that's inevitable.

i'm not against weaknesses, as long as they come with strengths and immersive and fun gameplay. But to cry for nerfs and weaknesses just to hold vampires back and restrict every part of vamp gameplay is not ok. Everyone wants to have fun, playing the way they want. We want that too.

MornaBaine

MADshadowman wrote: »

Well, i didn't make the lore. We just have to adapt to it, there is no other way around. I would go so far to say our hp regen could actually be the sunlight weakness in a form, but that means it should go up at night.

And of course are there changes to the lore in a franchise that goes on for that long, that's inevitable.

i'm not against weaknesses, as long as they come with strengths and immersive and fun gameplay. But to cry for nerfs and weaknesses just to hold vampires back and restrict every part of vamp gameplay is not ok. Everyone wants to have fun, playing the way they want. We want that too.

There we are in total agreement. I WANT vamps to be high maintenance PITAs to play. I also want then to be powerful and FUN.

Father

Its not just fire dmg and health panelty, its also Fighters guild passives and skills, really hurts, like the slayer passive