Dueling feedback in Cyrodiil

Armitas

Gargragrond wrote: »

In addition, I guess every class has now some unblockable cc so you still have to break out quite often.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I suspect that is the part that really seals the deal and ends it all. No more forward tanks holding raid aggro so that the dps can take them down from relative safety. 1 CC with focus fire on you is immediate lights out.

I suspect we will have giant pew pew stand offs now, which should be tons of fun for a melee class. Even if you're not a DK, with the nerf to immovable, you're in the same boat.

Ezareth

I for one welcome our new Sorcerer overlords.

Seriously though, where are the Stamina/physical damage theorycrafters?

Sabre Ali and I were getting wrecked by some biting jab templar for awhile until I finally killed him *once*.

With the removal of all of the homogenization of stats we now have the ability to min/max and that is going to be the only way to be effective. Are there no truly min/max options for Stam?

AriBoh

XEVENEX wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Dueling a NB with cloak takes forever, and the best part is if the NB looks like he/she is starting to lose they'll vanish then snipe you in the back of the melon. Also with invisible players not procing anything (DoTs, ult, executes) some builds just cannot compete with a class that can enter and exit combat at will.

FTFY

Ha true enough.

trimsic_ESO

t.claudio.usnub18_ESO wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

After 3 hours of dueling in Cyrodiil, in short:
- Radiance is way too powerful
- Magicka builds are 20 to 30% more powerful than stamina builds
- Templar and sorc are above the other classes

It's sad to see that stamina builds are still not on par with magicka builds. This is a situation that lasts since launch (10 months ago), and is still not fixed in this 1.6 build, which is supposed to balance the combat system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ can you please pass this information to the combat system and skill team, so they can see what's wrong and try to find a solution to finally fix the stamina builds and make them as powerful as the magicka builds. One of the main issue is that the melee weapon damage is really too low (dual wield for instance).

My hot bars:
- One hand and a shield: pierce armor, heroic slash (or reverberating bash), green dragon blood, shielded assault, absorb magic - flawless dawnbreaker or corrosive armor
- Dual wield: rending slashes, unstable flame, igneous shield, flying blade, burning breath - flawless dawnbreaker

Not true, I have learned that you have to change the way you play, a Stam build is less about abilities to do damage and more about Light/Heavy attacks even Staff Light/Heavy scale directly with stam, magic builds seem to rely on mainly on abilities more to put a hurting on you while stam can destroy you with Light/Heavy attacks alone, the stam abilities are IMO there for utility and counters, the moment I started to change my way of playing to embrace that I started doing things no magic user could dream of with just about a full stam bar at all times to block, roll ect.

Light/Heavy attacks do not yield the burst DPS required to kill someone, especially with the new damage shield metagame in 1.6.
I deal a lot of DOTs, but still the DPS is not high enough. Some combats lasted for 5 minutes or more.

Darlgon

After numerous hours of reading threads on dueling...

Dueling only applies to duels. Not with "real" gaming unless it is only dueling, like Mortal Combat Online.

ESO features PVE and AvA, neither of which is a place for only one player to fight only one other player. Duelers claim that in Cyrodiil, you can have a one on one. Anyone else can and is allowed to come up and kill the opponent, sometimes to the outrage of the combatants, but that is how Cyrodiil is designed. In 10 months, I have had two fights one on one. The rest of the time, its either group battles, or someone ganked me as I rode by on my horse (no defense for me), or I shield-charged someone on thier siege (no defense or prep for them). Neither of which is dueling, which involved both parties being prepped and starting at a predetermined "Go".

Skills that pro "duelers" say are unbalanced and scream about in the forums get changed, because they scream about them. This leads to breakage in PVE or in AvA or both. Dueling should not be allowed to influence any development decisions.

Solanum

Alright, the guy above me thinks duels have nothing to do with PVE or PVP. Personally I think a fight between two characters gives a very nice display of what resource management, mitigation, damage and burst both characters are capable of.

That said, I've done some dueling last night, first time in the game, and absolutely loved the opportunity to get a good look at my build, and playstyle, and how it compared to other players.

I currently love fighting stamina builds. And had some of the most enjoyable PVP fighting stamina users. I play a heavy plate Nightblade, going for a mixture of stamina and health. Fighting another stamina user gives me a pretty good shot at winning. The weapons seem about equal in power, with archery being used far less then I imagined. But still having it's own place in PVP. Duel wield and two handed felt very powerful. Oddly enough, sword and board seemed the least useful amongst the lot.

Magicka builds I did not enjoy fighting. As soon as shields come into play and resto staves I'm probably going to lose. This may have something to do with heavy armor's lack of resource recovery.

It becomes worse when facing sorcerers. They can create distance very easily, and at a distance they do more damage then I can do while having greater survivability. Closer range leads to a knockback, or taking a walk trough a minefield.


Conclusion: All in all, I think the balance has remarkably improved, and while light armor magicka builds are still superior to anything else in my view, it was awesome to see stamina and even heavy armor being far less useless then they were before.

I really love the fact stamina got a heal, something essential that was really missing. Shame though that it'll take bloody ages for me to have access to it.

It's hard to talk about class balance, since I only play from a Nightblades perspective. Perhaps Dragonknights can deal with Sorcerers easier. And I have no clue how well Templars function.

Gargragrond

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Light/Heavy attacks do not yield the burst DPS required to kill someone, especially with the new damage shield metagame in 1.6.
I deal a lot of DOTs, but still the DPS is not high enough. Some combats lasted for 5 minutes or more.

It seems that shields do not catch DOTs anymore like they do in 1.5. If a build relies heavily on dots it will probably be quite useless against someone equipping damage shields. E.g. DKs relying on unstable/engulfing flame for damage are doing pretty badly.

Derra

Gargragrond wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Light/Heavy attacks do not yield the burst DPS required to kill someone, especially with the new damage shield metagame in 1.6.
I deal a lot of DOTs, but still the DPS is not high enough. Some combats lasted for 5 minutes or more.

It seems that shields do not catch DOTs anymore like they do in 1.5. If a build relies heavily on dots it will probably be quite useless against someone equipping damage shields. E.g. DKs relying on unstable/engulfing flame for damage are doing pretty badly.

You can block dots now (all singletarget ones that have a DD component). They get applied on shields.

Derra

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I for one welcome our new Sorcerer overlords.

Seriously though, where are the Stamina/physical damage theorycrafters?

Sabre Ali and I were getting wrecked by some biting jab templar for awhile until I finally killed him *once*.

With the removal of all of the homogenization of stats we now have the ability to min/max and that is going to be the only way to be effective. Are there no truly min/max options for Stam?

I was under the impression that the templar build in discussion WAS a stamina build?

Yuke

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

This has been a said a lot in this thread. Could you or anyone else elaborate on this. I assume this is because of the block cost and the armor on light armor? I am bouncing around builds like crazy right now and unsure about anything I've put together so far, so anything you could say on this would be helpful.

The problem is, that spell damage is now beeing defined by the weapon you use. Flame Lash with s/b has a delve value close to nothing. Blocking still works with the right gear but your damage is ***.

Nacario

This is alos a hit to stamina builds that are no tank focused, since block cost and dodge is close to the same cost as light/magica users have, only that magica users have exaclty that extra pool where their dmg scale from, part from stamina that have everything from there.

trimsic_ESO

Gargragrond wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Light/Heavy attacks do not yield the burst DPS required to kill someone, especially with the new damage shield metagame in 1.6.
I deal a lot of DOTs, but still the DPS is not high enough. Some combats lasted for 5 minutes or more.

It seems that shields do not catch DOTs anymore like they do in 1.5. If a build relies heavily on dots it will probably be quite useless against someone equipping damage shields. E.g. DKs relying on unstable/engulfing flame for damage are doing pretty badly.

I 100% agree. Unfortunately DOTs are the main source of DPS for a stamina DK (rending slashes, unstable flames, burning breath), because the direct damage done by the melee weapons are under performing in PVP, albeit I also heard that the problem was the same in PVE.

mauritius.krebsb16_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Gargragrond wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Light/Heavy attacks do not yield the burst DPS required to kill someone, especially with the new damage shield metagame in 1.6.
I deal a lot of DOTs, but still the DPS is not high enough. Some combats lasted for 5 minutes or more.

It seems that shields do not catch DOTs anymore like they do in 1.5. If a build relies heavily on dots it will probably be quite useless against someone equipping damage shields. E.g. DKs relying on unstable/engulfing flame for damage are doing pretty badly.

I 100% agree. Unfortunately DOTs are the main source of DPS for a stamina DK (rending slashes, unstable flames, burning breath), because the direct damage done by the melee weapons are under performing in PVP, albeit I also heard that the problem was the same in PVE.

underperforming? let me introduce you to my friends wrecking blow and rapid strikes, that can't be interrupted any longer. although i agree on the dots, crits and dots shouldn't be nullified by shields. shields would be way more balanced that way.

Armitas

Yuke wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The DK sword and board light armor build is gone. I don´t believe there is a way to make that one competetive in 1.6.

This has been a said a lot in this thread. Could you or anyone else elaborate on this. I assume this is because of the block cost and the armor on light armor? I am bouncing around builds like crazy right now and unsure about anything I've put together so far, so anything you could say on this would be helpful.

The problem is, that spell damage is now beeing defined by the weapon you use. Flame Lash with s/b has a delve value close to nothing.

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that with all spell power/magicka being equal a 2hander will yield more flame whip damage than s/b?

c0rp

While I understand people want balance in 1v1....since dueling is not supported in the game by ZoS, why should balancing dueling be a priority? There are many things in dire need of resources besides "who beats who in a duel".

Merlin13KAGL

Problem is, PvP, 1v1, 1vX, PvE, Dungeons, and Trials are all different subsets.

It's virtually impossible to change baseline skills/passives without it having an effect in all of the above areas.

What enhances one, usually throws off another.

I guess I view these things on a broader scale between Single Target and AoE. Dueling is obviously more focused on single target.

Sarousse

After 2 days of duelling in Cyrodiil, I don't feel less powerful than magicka builds on my full stamina DK. (playing 2h/1h+s)

I won more than 75% of my duels against a very large panel of different enemies/classes/builds.

The combination of 2 dots (unstable flame/flame breath) while hitting on 0% armor targets (using a precise 2h hammer with armor debuff) with ravage and heavy attacks provides me engouh dps to crush pretty everything.

Also add the fact that petrify is more powerful than ever (and it bypass block now), I'm a very hard to CC opponent with strong survival and dps.

My main problem is the shield stacking (and devs said they are looking into it), and against full stamina templars (but I'm working hard on how to beat them).

Comparing to the live where playing full stamina on a dk with a 2h is a pain right now, I'm feeling in the right place in 1.6.

chongguang

mislucb16_ESO wrote: »

After 2 days of duelling in Cyrodiil, I don't feel less powerful than magicka builds on my full stamina DK. (playing 2h/1h+s)

I won more than 75% of my duels against a very large panel of different enemies/classes/builds.

The combination of 2 dots (unstable flame/flame breath) while hitting on 0% armor targets (using a precise 2h hammer with armor debuff) with ravage and heavy attacks provides me engouh dps to crush pretty everything.

Also add the fact that petrify is more powerful than ever (and it bypass block now), I'm a very hard to CC opponent with strong survival and dps.

My main problem is the shield stacking (and devs said they are looking into it), and against full stamina templars (but I'm working hard on how to beat them).

Comparing to the live where playing full stamina on a dk with a 2h is a pain right now, I'm feeling in the right place in 1.6.

Summary your words , then i got that DK is tanky and dpsy, the most threaten one is sors with several shields