Regarding special mounts, need racial restrictions. Especially Senche

Exarch

Tapio75 wrote: »

So profit over lore?

That does tend to the purpose of a commercial enterprise, yes.

Emencie

UrQuan wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

I'm the Soulless champion of Tamriel who also can shape change at will to travel to opposing factions. The Champion that went to cold harbor, and defeated Molag Bal himself. The champion of Meridia, and the slayer of hundreds of thousands of people, creatures, and monsters across the land.

Heck I'm pretty sure I've killed over 2000 Senche while grinding... I'm even positive I could take on over 5 at once.

But somehow it should be impossible to capture, break, saddle, and train one.

Lore.

Well, here's the thing about that. You've also probably killed over 2000 bretons, or imperials, or orcs. Should it be possible to capture, break, saddle and train one of them too? I mean, it's the same thing: if the senche chooses to do it that's fine (but it's unlikely the senche would do so for a non-khajiit), but otherwise it's the same as slavery.

But of course it depends on the exact variety of senche that we get for our mount - not all of the varieties are intelligent.

Yes... While a breton or an orc is far too small to ride. I in fact do have a breton slave, I think an orc slave, and at least 2 nord slaves. Right now in game.

There is a whole race devoted to slavery in this world and I regularly throw around my weight, and intimidate lesser people into giving me what I want. So even if you want to say lore wise it would be slavery (which I don't completely agree with). So what? Slavery is a natural part of the world.

My character is arguably the most powerful mortal in TES ever!

The hero of Kavatch did solo Jyggalag and may give the soulless champion a run for his money

The very idea that I couldn't catch and tame a senche is more lore breaking to me! I have defeated a daedric prince, survived the games of another and I have liberated entire cities from daedric influence, I have fought back a tide of a thousand men and I cannot ride a tiger because it won't let me?

It won't let me!?

Tigers don't tell me what to do! I will skin a hundred of them and make a senche skin outfit with a senche head for a hat, and I will wear it while riding a senche that I put another senche skin outfit on! And I will stab him with fiery dragon talons every time he thinks about complaining if I want to. And if he dies I will resurrect him so I can do it again!

xaraan

How about NO.

And there are no definitive lore reasons for a limit either, especially on Guar, but even Senche. Even if you found one mention in a game or game book somewhere (the only real lore) those are written by people in the world that can make mistakes, plus it wouldn't be hard to create a reason for their availability in the story either way.

Theosis

I want to ride a singing potato with wings that can dance like Nyan cat through Oblivion while eating cheese.

Store will sell mounts for all. I know that lore is important to at least 75 percent of the player base but you all had to know from the beginning that lore is going to be stretched in an MMO.

AlexDougherty

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Great thing about lore is you can change it. They can come up with any reason they want to let us ride motorcycles if they want. It's their lore.

Within reason, change established lore too much and you destroy the basis on which the games are based, and it ceases being Elder Scrolls.

Oh it may be called Elder Scrolls, and it may superficially look like the Elder Scrolls games, but if the underlying lore is compromised it won't BE the Elder scrolls.

Enodoc

I think the important lore-thing here is what @Rosveen‌ and @UrQuan‌ have been saying; the upcoming mounts are senche (or senche-something), and aside from one comment by Pacrooti (which could be fixed by removing "-tiger") and a bit of PGE1 (which is notorious for making incorrect assumptions), the senche wild cats are not the same as the Senche form of Khajiit. Maybe they have the same origins, and wild senche were once Senche Khajiit that went feral, but as it stands right now, the lore answer is that the senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit, so the stated issue does not exist.

Merlin13KAGL

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Great thing about lore is you can change it. They can come up with any reason they want to let us ride motorcycles if they want. It's their lore.

Actually it isn't, it's Bethesda's.

Yeah, but Bethesda only consulted. They were smart to stay out of it, but it also means they can't really dispute either.

They have not been nor will they continue to be obligated to TES lore or legacy.

They'll go where the $ is, unfortunately.

I mean, what's the big deal anyway? What are they gonna do, irrevocably F' Up a time honored entity they've certainly already done damage to?

They're riding on the ES name. They should be obligated to honor it, or remove it from their title. If not for the ES in ESO, this game would simply be another MMO.

I don't expect either is going to happen, unfortunately.

MornaBaine

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

you think zos will make a cash shop mount and only sell em to a very small part of the player base....?

and it better look like this

OMG....WANT. ZOS, pay attention!!!!!

Most of my characters will continue to ride horses. None of them will ever ride a guar. But my main is a crazy cat lady with an obsession with all things khajiit. Though Breton, she would move Athyreus and Nirn to possess a beastie like this.

Kragorn

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Great thing about lore is you can change it. They can come up with any reason they want to let us ride motorcycles if they want. It's their lore.

Actually it isn't, it's Bethesda's.

Actually, both ZOS and Bethesda are owned by Zenimax Media who can clearly let ZOS do what they like with it, Bethesda have no say they sold their rights when they took Zenimax Media's 30 silver pieces.

Rosveen

Kragorn wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Great thing about lore is you can change it. They can come up with any reason they want to let us ride motorcycles if they want. It's their lore.

Actually it isn't, it's Bethesda's.

Actually, both ZOS and Bethesda are owned by Zenimax Media who can clearly let ZOS do what they like with it, Bethesda have no say they sold their rights when they took Zenimax Media's 30 silver pieces.

Rotfl. Zenimax Media was created by Bethesda Softworks founder, Chris Weaver. It's a shell company. Bethesda didn't sell out or anything, so stop with the metaphors.

TheShadowScout

In the final analysis, lore is just the background. There are always special cases.

So what if under normal circumstances a senche would only let khajiit ride them? They might be presuaded to make an exception if they really like the way some breton crazy cat lady smells. They might be mind-controlled into letting the dunmer slaver ride them too. They might even let that shirtless nord prince ride them as well if they had been brought up by him as a kitten... (they might however object to being painted green...)

In the end, there is always a way, always a loophole, no matter the lore. And if it makes them money, they will add it to the cash store, lore or no. Be happy if that stops only at senche-mounts for everyone...

Rosveen

TheShadowScout wrote: »

In the final analysis, lore is just the background. There are always special cases.

So what if under normal circumstances a senche would only let khajiit ride them? They might be presuaded to make an exception if they really like the way some breton crazy cat lady smells. They might be mind-controlled into letting the dunmer slaver ride them too. They might even let that shirtless nord prince ride them as well if they had been brought up by him as a kitten... (they might however object to being painted green...)

In the end, there is always a way, always a loophole, no matter the lore. And if it makes them money, they will add it to the cash store, lore or no. Be happy if that stops only at senche-mounts for everyone...

I think the problem here is the rarity of loopholes. It's similar to the dragon issue some Skyrim fans brought up: they exist in this timeframe, we could meet one hidden far away, but not dozens of them flying around. I'm sure the intelligent variety of Senche sometimes let non-Khajiit ride them, but it's not something you see every day.

Then again, using guar as mounts all around Tamriel also isn't common... There will always be some clash between lore and gameplay, it's unavoidable. The challenge is to minimize it.

BBSooner

TheShadowScout wrote: »

In the end, there is always a way, always a loophole, no matter the lore. And if it makes them money, they will add it to the cash store, lore or no. Be happy if that stops only at senche-mounts for everyone...

How big of a loophole? I absolutely agree the loophole exists, and we'll see people riding the senche before long. However no amount of explaining away really amounts for this kind of direction. We aren't talking about a hidden power that only comes out under certain conditions or a historical event that gets lost in the Interregnum. We're talking about a means of transportation.

The commonality of senche mounts is what's in question here. Clearly they are super common based on how the vast majority of NPCs in TES:1-5 ride them as transportation.

If and when the senche mount is released we will see a strong % of people riding them, all races, all corners of Tamriel. That is an inconsistency with the lore based on all games prior, loophole being the era/Interregnum.

The same loophole exists for other mounts as well. Nothing in the lore says that mammoths, wamasu, dwemer automatons, dwemer flying machines, giant spiders, clannfear, daedric titans, giant snakes, trolls, giants, bears, or anything larger than a person didn't have a saddle strapped to it and used as transportation for the masses in this era so they all fit through the same loophole senche do. Though I guess support for alternate mounts really amounts to personal taste and whether or not the person had a desire for continuity in their choice of entertainment, and how much they're willing to jump the shark.

Enodoc

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid.

Rosveen

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid.

I think we're discussing it purely theoretically now? I know I am.

BBSooner

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid

It doesn't matter what is rode, the commonality of a non-horse mount is not consistent with quite literally all examples of mounts in other titles. The lack of populace riding anything other than horses(or arguably guar in morrowind/black marsh) speaks to how rare non-horse mounts are, so the explanation we have for seeing a large amount of riders is a two-fold loophole (as detailed in another post): 1.) Interregnum and 2.) Lore says possible (even if highly implausible). The same loophole applies to the list of possibilities in my previous post, all of which are just as ridiculous when used in a large scale of use as a senche.

Shunravi

BBSooner wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid

It doesn't matter what is rode, the commonality of a non-horse mount is not consistent with quite literally all examples of mounts in other titles. The lack of populace riding anything other than horses(or arguably guar in morrowind/black marsh) speaks to how rare non-horse mounts are, so the explanation we have for seeing a large amount of riders is a two-fold loophole (as detailed in another post): 1.) Interregnum and 2.) Lore says possible (even if highly implausible). The same loophole applies to the list of possibilities in my previous post, all of which are just as ridiculous when used in a large scale of use as a senche.

Just because they didn't put the time and resources to have different mounts in previous games does not mean that there were no other mounts.

And, @Enodoc, you are correct. And it is one of the most disappointing things that Khajiit gamers have experienced in ESO. We finally get to see Elsweyr, and explore Khajiit society, and what do they give us? A severely dumbed down version of what could have been, and beasts with the name of something that should have meant something. If anything, that's what I'm arguing for when I say that lore-wise, Senche are Khajiit.

Nivzruo_ESO

Mammoths for nords them, and let them carry 3 players.

Shunravi

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Mammoths for nords them, and let them carry 3 players.

Absolutely.

I could also see dunerippers, wamasu, or really anny other creatures large enough to bear a rider.

BBSooner

Shunravi wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid

It doesn't matter what is rode, the commonality of a non-horse mount is not onsistent with quite literally all examples of mounts in other titles. The lack of populace riding anything other than horses(or arguably guar in morrowind/black marsh) speaks to how rare non-horse mounts are, so the explanation we have for seeing a large amount of riders is a two-fold loophole (as detailed in another post): 1.) Interregnum and 2.) Lore says possible (even if highly implausible). The same loophole applies to the list of possibilities in my previous post, all of which are just as ridiculous when used in a large scale of use as a senche.

Just because they didn't put the time and resources to have different mounts in previous games does not mean that there were no other mounts.

Possibly. Or possibly the likelihood of seeing a non horse in, say, Windhelm or Anvil was so low that the implication of having only horses spoke to the rarity of non-horses as a mount in other places beyond culturally/environmentally specific areas and development time was spent in other places. Possibly there are Centaur being commonly enslaved and rode all over Tamriel and the previous games just didn't have the development resources to add them. Or possibly dwemer scholars commonly conformed centurions and giant dwemer spiders in to mounts for people to use and, sadly, the TES games just didn't have time to accurately represent that. All of which could technically fit in the lore since the only requirement for this use is simply existence. Possible or not, I personally prefer IPs to have continuity.

Shunravi

BBSooner wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid

It doesn't matter what is rode, the commonality of a non-horse mount is not onsistent with quite literally all examples of mounts in other titles. The lack of populace riding anything other than horses(or arguably guar in morrowind/black marsh) speaks to how rare non-horse mounts are, so the explanation we have for seeing a large amount of riders is a two-fold loophole (as detailed in another post): 1.) Interregnum and 2.) Lore says possible (even if highly implausible). The same loophole applies to the list of possibilities in my previous post, all of which are just as ridiculous when used in a large scale of use as a senche.

Just because they didn't put the time and resources to have different mounts in previous games does not mean that there were no other mounts.

Possibly. Or possibly the likelihood of seeing a non horse in, say, Windhelm or Anvil was so low that the implication of having only horses spoke to the rarity of non-horses as a mount in other places beyond culturally/environmentally specific areas and development time was spent in other places. Possibly there are Centaur being commonly enslaved and rode all over Tamriel and the previous games just didn't have the development resources to add them. Or possibly dwemer scholars commonly conformed centurions and giant dwemer spiders in to mounts for people to use and, sadly, the TES games just didn't have time to accurately represent that. All of which could technically fit in the lore since the only requirement for this use is simply existence. Possible or not, I personally prefer IPs to have continuity.

Agreed.

However, ESO already butchers lore, and it's an MMO. MMOs have this annoying tendancy to give you a wide variety if options in which you can customize your mode of transportation. And now that we have a cash shop, I can't really see them holding back...

They announced the guar and senche mounts back in (true) beta. Being an MMO, I never felt they would stop there.

BBSooner

Shunravi wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid

It doesn't matter what is rode, the commonality of a non-horse mount is not onsistent with quite literally all examples of mounts in other titles. The lack of populace riding anything other than horses(or arguably guar in morrowind/black marsh) speaks to how rare non-horse mounts are, so the explanation we have for seeing a large amount of riders is a two-fold loophole (as detailed in another post): 1.) Interregnum and 2.) Lore says possible (even if highly implausible). The same loophole applies to the list of possibilities in my previous post, all of which are just as ridiculous when used in a large scale of use as a senche.

Just because they didn't put the time and resources to have different mounts in previous games does not mean that there were no other mounts.

Possibly. Or possibly the likelihood of seeing a non horse in, say, Windhelm or Anvil was so low that the implication of having only horses spoke to the rarity of non-horses as a mount in other places beyond culturally/environmentally specific areas and development time was spent in other places. Possibly there are Centaur being commonly enslaved and rode all over Tamriel and the previous games just didn't have the development resources to add them. Or possibly dwemer scholars commonly conformed centurions and giant dwemer spiders in to mounts for people to use and, sadly, the TES games just didn't have time to accurately represent that. All of which could technically fit in the lore since the only requirement for this use is simply existence. Possible or not, I personally prefer IPs to have continuity.

Agreed.

However, ESO already butchers lore, and it's an MMO. MMOs have this annoying tendancy to give you a wide variety if options in which you can customize your mode of transportation. And now that we have a cash shop, I can't really see them holding back...

They announced the guar and senche mounts back in (true) beta. Being an MMO, I never felt they would stop there.

Oh, well I may have to disagree in regards to how far ESO has deviated from lore and what could be considered plausible given the explanation.

I agree though about it not stopping with senche, I have come to terms with the adding if ridiculous mounts to appease those who don't consider lore valuable for atmosphere since guar and senche were first announced. Though I was under the impression the current discussion was about if large scale continent wide use of non-horses was plausible in terms of the series as a whole. I apologize if we were having two different conversations.

Shunravi

BBSooner wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Did nobody read what I said above? There is no lore inconsistency. Senche mounts are not Senche Khajiit so the argument and all counter-arguments are invalid

It doesn't matter what is rode, the commonality of a non-horse mount is not onsistent with quite literally all examples of mounts in other titles. The lack of populace riding anything other than horses(or arguably guar in morrowind/black marsh) speaks to how rare non-horse mounts are, so the explanation we have for seeing a large amount of riders is a two-fold loophole (as detailed in another post): 1.) Interregnum and 2.) Lore says possible (even if highly implausible). The same loophole applies to the list of possibilities in my previous post, all of which are just as ridiculous when used in a large scale of use as a senche.

Just because they didn't put the time and resources to have different mounts in previous games does not mean that there were no other mounts.

Possibly. Or possibly the likelihood of seeing a non horse in, say, Windhelm or Anvil was so low that the implication of having only horses spoke to the rarity of non-horses as a mount in other places beyond culturally/environmentally specific areas and development time was spent in other places. Possibly there are Centaur being commonly enslaved and rode all over Tamriel and the previous games just didn't have the development resources to add them. Or possibly dwemer scholars commonly conformed centurions and giant dwemer spiders in to mounts for people to use and, sadly, the TES games just didn't have time to accurately represent that. All of which could technically fit in the lore since the only requirement for this use is simply existence. Possible or not, I personally prefer IPs to have continuity.

Agreed.

However, ESO already butchers lore, and it's an MMO. MMOs have this annoying tendancy to give you a wide variety if options in which you can customize your mode of transportation. And now that we have a cash shop, I can't really see them holding back...

They announced the guar and senche mounts back in (true) beta. Being an MMO, I never felt they would stop there.

Oh, well I may have to disagree in regards to how far ESO has deviated from lore and what could be considered plausible given the explanation.

I agree though about it not stopping with senche, I have come to terms with the adding if ridiculous mounts to appease those who don't consider lore valuable for atmosphere since guar and senche were first announced. Though I was under the impression the current discussion was about if large scale continent wide use of non-horses was plausible in terms of the series as a whole. I apologize if we were having two different conversations.

Well, 'butchered' may be a bit strong...

But again, yea, everyone having these mounts will be stretching things. So we are in agreement with that...

I'm sorry as well if we are arguing different sides of the issue, though it does make for a more... complete discussion. If we still had a sub only system, I would be inclined to agree that having more non-horse mounts everywhere shouldn't be all that prevalent. But we don't anymore. And we will see more varied mounts whether we like it or not, in more places.

Shunravi

double post