PVP Meta: Damage Shield Stacking With Solutions

sabresandiego_ESO

Using damage shields has been the PVP meta since the release of the game. Many people didn't know this, and the people who did were basically gods on the battlefield. Now everybody knows, and everybody does it, and it can make people near unkillable in small scale situations. I like the way the damage shield system works, it creates fun battles, but in 1.6 it has gone slightly overboard due to the removal of softcaps. The game is balanced for larger scale fights, and overall the way damage shields work is actually a very fun system that rewards skill and reaction speed.

Now although damage shield use is almost as strong on live as it is in 1.6, the issue has been compounded by the softcap removal and people are dumping nearly 100% of their attributes and enchants into one stat like magicka. This not only gives them the highest offense possible with their spells, but also the strongest damage shields possible. This is especially true for sorcerrors using hardened ward.

Should the game really reward min maxers with both the best offense and best defense by dumping everything into one stat? (magicka)This is a tough question and not easy to answer.

Possible Solutions to The Shield Stacking Meta:

1. Make shields be affected by healing debuffs. If you have a 40% healing debuff, your recasted shields are 40% weaker. This may already be happening on 1.6 PTS as I noticed weak shields at one point, and if it is, great change!

2. Make shields scale off something other than magicka. This type of change should help tremendously, and make sorcs think twice about going pure magicka.

3. Make a select few skills do increased damage to damage shields, but make sure they are not regular skills that people spam. It should require thought to see the damage shield and make the decision to use the skill. Execute skills might be a good choice. This could render damage shields too weak though.

4. Allow effects to work through damage shields. Right now you can't generate ultimate, cant interrupt with venom arrow, and cant heal from strife, off damage shields. All these things should be fixed.

5. Shield stacking has to remain, otherwise nobody will use specialized shields such as annulment and bone shield. Also damage shields are a very important part of the game, and are balanced at normal attribute levels. Its when you get min maxed builds that they become too strong. Whatever change is made to damage shields, they should not be weakened for players who are not min maxing their builds otherwise damage will spiral out of control. Its difficult to balance, but the devs are probably doing a lot of internal testing and will get it right.

Panda244

I have no problem with shield stackers, never had... The only problem I encounter with shields is NBs in duels that use healing ward when they're really low and stack it with harness magicka. I melt the shield relatively quickly but it is annoying... In large scale stacking shields doesn't do jack as they melt the second you activate them. When I use my shields, it's to buff my GDB or get some magicka/stamina back from the passives.

I would support the heal debuff for shields... But there are so many heal debuffs in the game it wouldn't be fair imo... Igneous shield on live is about a 900 point dmg shield, and you want to half that by 450?

In PvP, 450 dmg happens so fast there is no way to counter it, shields melt already, why nerf them more?

Berinima

Interesting ideas, but consider this (sorry for the re-post from another thread):

I personally think the problem is not that shield stacking is a "new" meta, it has been around before. Neither is it necessarily overpowered because especially light armor users need the survivability due to the dramatic armor nerfs.

However, due to these nerfs and a much smaller health pool they seem to have become mandatory. Before it felt more like a choice, especially because we had soft caps. Then again, if shields scale with magicka you don't have to chose between damage or survivability, you are getting both. Also they are very few counters. That makes a shield stacking magicka build superior to many others what leads to this new (maybe new is not exactly the right word but I hope you know for what I am aiming here) meta.

And because it's superior and because it's mandatory people feel "forced" to adapt to this meta. Especially with a system that strongly limits your choices (2x5 skills on your bar) people perceive that as not ideal. Also because the patch forces a lot of things on the players in the state as it is right now.

The main problem is, if you go from here and try to "fix" it by for example making them vulnerable to heal debuffs, chances are you are actually making things worse.

Very complicated.

Wahee

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Stacking damage shields has been the PVP meta since the release of the game. Many people didn't know this, and the people who did were basically gods on the battlefield. Now everybody knows, and everybody does it, and it can make people near unkillable in small scale situations. I like the way the damage shield system works, it creates fun battles, but in 1.6 it has gone slightly overboard due to the removal of softcaps. The game is balanced for larger scale fights, and overall the way damage shields work is actually a very fun system that rewards skill and reaction speed.

Now although damage shield stacking is almost as strong on live as it is in 1.6, the issue has been compounded by the softcap removal and people are dumping nearly 100% of their attributes and enchants into one stat like magicka. This not only gives them the highest offense possible with their spells, but also the strongest damage shields possible. This is especially true for sorcerrors using hardened ward.

Should the game really reward min maxers with both the best offense and best defense by dumping everything into one stat? (magicka)

Solutions to The Shield Stacking Meta:

1. Make shields be affected by healing debuffs. If you have a 40% healing debuff, your recasted shields are 40% weaker. This may already be happening on 1.6 PTS as I noticed weak shields at one point, and if it is, great change!

2. Make shields scale off something other than magicka. Sun shield already scales off health. Perhaps annulment should scale off spell resist, conjured ward should scale off armor (making bound armor and lightning form more useful in pvp) and something similar for other damage shields.

3. Make a select few skills do increased damage to damage shields, but make sure they are not regular skills that people spam. It should require thought to see the damage shield and make the decision to use the skill. Execute skills would be perfect for this. Mages Fury, Impale, Reverse Slash, etc... should all do increased damage to damage shields. This would have the added effect of making the skills more useful outside of execute range.

I couldn't agree more. Shields need a counter. Heals have debuffs. Armor/resist have penetration and debuffs. Shields have no counter.

Is it really intended that players run around with 100% uptime on a stacked shield that functions as a second health bar that prevents damage, ult gen (1.6), and grants 100% crit immunity? Is that really how we want to play?

Shields should function as a reactive counter to burst. They keep you alive long enough for heals to top you back off. Shields should not function as a permanent second health bar. The efficiency of shields needs to be toned down by a significant margin to make them less of a permanent buff and more of an expensive life saving skill when focused.

Not every build can use shields effectively (stamina especially). Build variety in PvP is severely limited by the mandatory nature of shields to be competitive.

Sharee

Wahee wrote: »

Is it really intended that players run around with 100% uptime on a stacked shield that functions as a second health bar that prevents damage, ult gen (1.6), and grants 100% crit immunity?

They also prevent several mechanics from functioning.

For example, if you cast a siphon(the resto staff ability) on enemy, it is supposed to heal you everytime you attack the enemy. Against a shield however, it does not work.

Black_Wolf88

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

DDuke

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

Teargrants

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

3. Make a select few skills do increased damage to damage shields, but make sure they are not regular skills that people spam. It should require thought to see the damage shield and make the decision to use the skill. Execute skills would be perfect for this. Mages Fury, Impale, Reverse Slash, etc... should all do increased damage to damage shields. This would have the added effect of making the skills more useful outside of execute range.

Um bro, are we being super cereal here?

Snit

Use diminishing returns on multiple shields:

- The first shield cast = 100% effectiveness
- The second shield cast = 50% effectiveness
- All others = 25%

For things like 'Brawler' that constantly spam tiny shields, make sure that any big shield the player casts slots into the top effectiveness slot.

Snit

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

This. With the gutting of Critical Surge, magicka-based sorcs no longer have a useful heal. Conjured Ward is pretty much it.

ToRelax

Berinima wrote: »

Interesting ideas, but consider this (sorry for the re-post from another thread):

I personally think the problem is not that shield stacking is a "new" meta, it has been around before. Neither is it necessarily overpowered because especially light armor users need the survivability due to the dramatic armor nerfs.

However, due to these nerfs and a much smaller health pool they seem to have become mandatory. Before it felt more like a choice, especially because we had soft caps. Then again, if shields scale with magicka you don't have to chose between damage or survivability, you are getting both. Also they are very few counters. That makes a shield stacking magicka build superior to many others what leads to this new (maybe new is not exactly the right word but I hope you know for what I am aiming here) meta.

And because it's superior and because it's mandatory people feel "forced" to adapt to this meta. Especially with a system that strongly limits your choices (2x5 skills on your bar) people perceive that as not ideal. Also because the patch forces a lot of things on the players in the state as it is right now.

The main problem is, if you go from here and try to "fix" it by for example making them vulnerable to heal debuffs, chances are you are actually making things worse.

Very complicated.

Exactly - atm, in 1.5 we are between the Harness Magicka nerf and the reduce of max health and removal of softcaps in 1.6.
So at the moment I am running only with Healing Ward on life in open world, taking one other shield for duels because of cost efficiency (Harness for Sorcs, else Hardened Ward).
I really don't want to go back to the shieldstacking meta, even though Sorc may not be the strongest class on life in 1.5, I enjoy my playstyle there much more than on PTS, where I am stacking shields again, but this time with a tiny health pool compared to life. So I have to always keep them up.

sabresandiego_ESO

We have to remember that shield stacking is really only overpowered on characters who have extremely high magicka values, which happens to be the same stat used for offense.

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist, healing taken, etc... would alleviate most of the issues with the extreme scaling of damage shields. This type of change will also allow stamina builds to use damage shields and be more competitive in PVP.

Snit

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist...

It would also eliminate caster sorcs as a viable class in some contexts.

To clarify, if shields were tied to health or armor, someone needs to explain how the classic light-armor/ staff sorc is supposed to survive. Between the removal of Crit Surge's heal and the nerfs to light armor and block, Conjured Ward is going to be necessary to stay alive.

DDuke

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

We have to remember that shield stacking is really only overpowered on characters who have extremely high magicka values, which happens to be the same stat used for offense.

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist, healing taken, etc... would alleviate most of the issues with the extreme scaling of damage shields. This type of change will also allow stamina builds to use damage shields and be more competitive in PVP.

I've been proposing this for a while, but I'd just create a new stat called "Spell Healing", and make all heals & shields (including GDB & Blazing Shield) scale off from it.

This way, people would have to choose whether they want good defense or good offense, or if they want to be "average" on both & get both spell damage & healing.

This could require some changes however (e.g. more defensive abilities for pure dps characters), as well as overall increase in player health in PvP.

Having stamina builds also spam damage shields (some already do) is the last thing I'd want to see in PvP.

sabresandiego_ESO

Snit wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist...

It would also eliminate caster sorcs as a viable class in some contexts.

No it wont, I play a sorc. Having both offense and defense tied to 1 stat, magicka, makes maxing that stat a no brainer. 95% of all sorcs I know who play at the highest level of PVP put every single point into magicka, ignoring health and stamina completely. They then either use cost reduction glyphs or something similar on jewelry. They have insane damage, endless magicka, and extreme survivability from being able to re-shield forever. Some even add immovable on top of it.

A full magicka sorc, or any other shield stacking class, will have to actually invest in health/armor/or spell resist in order to have decent damage shields if they fix things. You shouldnt be able to max offense and defense so simply by maxing one stat.

Having annulment scale off of spell resist just makes logical sense too

Or Conjured Ward scale off armor (making bound armor and lightning form more synergistic)

Or obsidian shield scale off healing taken... etc

Snit

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Having annulment scale off of spell resist just makes logical sense too

Or Conjured Ward scale off armor

You're making active defenses scale off passive defenses. That would make builds with plenty of built-in defense (from armor or toggles) even stronger, while taking builds with few passive defenses (light armor sorcs, for example) much weaker.

Tanks would get even tankier, and squishies would be even squishier. I don't think that's a good direction.

I get what you are saying about having offense and defense scale off the same stat. However, the fact that the defense is an active one mitigates that somewhat. You have to push a button, which at least requires that you're not stunned, have resources and manage to push the button.

Nobody wants to see unkillable foes. Heck, I remember an incident with you many months ago, where a half-dozen of us were unable to bring you down (after which we tried to figure out your build). But you need to be careful not to make squishies too soft, or tanks too hard. Scaling shields with passive mitigation risks doing both of those things.

ToRelax

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist...

It would also eliminate caster sorcs as a viable class in some contexts.

No it wont, I play a sorc. Having both offense and defense tied to 1 stat, magicka, makes maxing that stat a no brainer. 95% of all sorcs I know who play at the highest level of PVP put every single point into magicka, ignoring health and stamina completely. They then either use cost reduction glyphs or something similar on jewelry. They have insane damage, endless magicka, and extreme survivability from being able to re-shield forever. Some even add immovable on top of it.

A full magicka sorc, or any other shield stacking class, will have to actually invest in health/armor/or spell resist in order to have decent damage shields if they fix things. You shouldnt be able to max offense and defense so simply by maxing one stat.

Having annulment scale off of spell resist just makes logical sense too

Or Conjured Ward scale off armor (making bound armor and lightning form more synergistic)

Or obsidian shield scale off healing taken... etc

So you are saying Sorcs / shield stackers in general whould go on shield stacking but do less damage?
While I do agree that would be good for balance it wouldn't do anything against the shield stacking meta that seems necessary with the low health pools and high burst damage in 1.6.
I for one don't like that insane shield stacking at all, on live I am able to survive with Healing Ward as my only shield as sorc, just having a decent health pool of 3070 HP and enough situational awareness.
I see that the changes to armor were necessary (though I don't like that last light armor passive, pretty much useless), and I would be okay with being a bit squishier than I am already on life. But please don't force me to stack shields to have a chance to survive, my current play style is far more demanding but also exciting than the shield stacking build I was running pre 1.5 and especially the shield stacking build I am using on PTS.

Look, shield stacking pre 1.5 was "meta" because Harness Magicka synergized far to well with all other damage shields. So there was not much you could do to compete with a good, shield stacking player, other than using Harness Magicka yourself. In 1.6, shields are needed because of small health pools, and no softcaps, buffing both shields and burst damage.
That needs to be balanced back imo, let players deal with the damage in other ways, even in light armor - I am okay with being a bit squishy, but if I drop shields on PTS, that's simply to much. A resource pool like I have in 1.5 would allow me to avoid a lot of the damage and not die with a sinlge burst, giving me a chance to fight back.

edit: typo

Thejollygreenone

DDuke wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

We have to remember that shield stacking is really only overpowered on characters who have extremely high magicka values, which happens to be the same stat used for offense.

Tying all damage shields to a defensive attribute such as health, armor, spell resist, healing taken, etc... would alleviate most of the issues with the extreme scaling of damage shields. This type of change will also allow stamina builds to use damage shields and be more competitive in PVP.

I've been proposing this for a while, but I'd just create a new stat called "Spell Healing", and make all heals & shields (including GDB & Blazing Shield) scale off from it.

This way, people would have to choose whether they want good defense or good offense, or if they want to be "average" on both & get both spell damage & healing.

This could require some changes however (e.g. more defensive abilities for pure dps characters), as well as overall increase in player health in PvP.

Having stamina builds also spam damage shields (some already do) is the last thing I'd want to see in PvP.

This, a thousand times this.

Also, while on the subject, just throwin it out there that I agree damage absorbs are way too large of a part of PvP. They have been for awhile, seems to be worse in 1.6.

Will be a very boring game if nothing changes about this. Sure some constraints need to be met such as the low time to kill, but there should be a solution out there somewhere which solves all ends of the issue.

Cody

I am not an expert on this games mechanics, so I can not offer any good solutions.

the best I have ever thought of was something similar to the way BE was nerfed. If one keeps on stacking/spamming damage shields in a short set amount of time, each shield would get progressively weaker and weaker, until it got to the point one single hit would drop them.

idk though, I just want it fixed b4 1.6 hits. If it goes live now, PvP is f****

Black_Wolf88

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

in 1.6 sorcs have lost their one and only class ability heal. and there is more or less no other option than resto staff from now on. healing ward being the most efficient and best option. the conjured ward is also a class ability and is very much used so we dont instantly die. most sorcs is still going close to full light armor in pts and is very squishy, and dies instantly without the ward.

im not against balance, but nerfing shields like they have nerfed critical surge along with spell crit chance is way too much. do that and you can probably just delete the sorc class entirely so we dont have to waste time trying to make builds work without any way of protection and healing.

streak/bolt escape as you say isnt very much help either in pve. works good in pvp at times, but in dungeons, trials and more streak is useless as it wosnt work on bosses, and the mob groups is usually spread out so you need 3-4 streak at least. exhausting your magicka in no time.

DDuke

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

in 1.6 sorcs have lost their one and only class ability heal. and there is more or less no other option than resto staff from now on. healing ward being the most efficient and best option. the conjured ward is also a class ability and is very much used so we dont instantly die. most sorcs is still going close to full light armor in pts and is very squishy, and dies instantly without the ward.

im not against balance, but nerfing shields like they have nerfed critical surge along with spell crit chance is way too much. do that and you can probably just delete the sorc class entirely so we dont have to waste time trying to make builds work without any way of protection and healing.

streak/bolt escape as you say isnt very much help either in pve. works good in pvp at times, but in dungeons, trials and more streak is useless as it wosnt work on bosses, and the mob groups is usually spread out so you need 3-4 streak at least. exhausting your magicka in no time.

If you have to use dmg shields or self heals in PvE, your healer is doing something wrong... just saying

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

Challenge accepted.

Leveling a sorcerer at the moment, I will be playing without shields or heals

And for the record: cloak doesn't mitigate anything atm, as it gets broken by everything

Dodge rolls alone don't save you against a shield/heal spammer or permablock people, I've found that out during the past couple of months.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

Challenge accepted.

Leveling a sorcerer at the moment, I will be playing without shields or heals

And for the record: cloak doesn't mitigate anything atm, as it gets broken by everything

Dodge rolls alone don't save you against a shield/heal spammer or permablock people, I've found that out during the past couple of months.

It does indeed mitigate dmg. It evades the skills fired at you when you cloak. This is easily over 800 dmg mitigated by evading the fragments + light attacks fired at you.

Also i have yet to see an nb pop out of cloak 1v1 when i have no stealth detection pot ready. It has its issues specially in melee or against multiple people. Against someone without magelight and ranged its more than fine.

Full light armor on that sorcerer please, because thats the base the people are playing that you´re arguing with.
(It will be a pleasure to blow you up a couple of times when you try it because that is what happens - i´ve tried)

Teiji

Are shields effected by armor and spell resistance?

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

Tell you what, when Bolt ESCAPE functions as a legitimate survivability tool, then go ahead and take away our damage shields.

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

Don't bother you are wasting your breathe. This guy is a broken record. As it is very easy for a sorc to stay in the back lines and pick off low health targets that can't fight back and rack up ridiculous kill to death ratio. He will just post something like this, complain about damage shields, and proceed to tell everyone how good he is without using the skills that he personally finds distasteful.

No damage shields:

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

Don't bother you are wasting your breathe. This guy is a broken record. As it is very easy for a sorc to stay in the back lines and pick off low health targets that can't fight back and rack up ridiculous kill to death ratio. He will just post something like this, complain about damage shields, and proceed to tell everyone how good he is without using the skills that he personally finds distasteful.

No damage shields:

Highlighted.

You just described every competitive stamina build out there (that isn't focused on dmg shield/GDB spam).

That's how the game is at the moment.

Of course, some people expect they should be able to tank 20 people in light armour (while stamina builds cannot do it either). I don't know what to tell these people...

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

Don't bother you are wasting your breathe. This guy is a broken record. As it is very easy for a sorc to stay in the back lines and pick off low health targets that can't fight back and rack up ridiculous kill to death ratio. He will just post something like this, complain about damage shields, and proceed to tell everyone how good he is without using the skills that he personally finds distasteful.

No damage shields:

Highlighted.

You just described every competitive stamina build out there (that isn't focused on dmg shield/GDB spam).

That's how the game is at the moment.

Of course, some people expect they should be able to tank 20 people in light armour (while stamina builds cannot do it either). I don't know what to tell these people...

Strawman much? I have never seen a serious post on this forum from a player who said a light armour player should be able to tank 20 people...

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Black_Wolf88 wrote: »

just dont over nerf the shields. without conjured ward and healing ward sorcs will instantly die as its our only option now that critical surge is no longer viable to heal us due to nerf in both skill itself and spell crit chance.

I hear this argument a lot, but I still don't understand it.

Why would sorcs "instantly die" without shields?
I'm assuming you're talking about light armour magicka sorcs

I've played a medium armour "assassin" since beta, and I've never had problems playing without a dmg shield (or heal, even), even when I get jumped by 2-3 people.

Well, not until 1.4, when they totally broke cloak.

Sure, sorcs don't have an ability like cloak, but you've got bolt escape, which should function as a survivability tool.

I do believe more defensive abilities (outside heals & dmg shields) should be added to the game, however.

This is complete and utter bullcrap. Sorry to be that harsh. The medium armor survivability does not come of cloak but from dodgerolls - something a light armor wearer has very limited access to, 3 times with no stamina allocated to be exact (dodgeroll is the best - but hardest to use - dmg mitigation in the game).
Also in terms of dmg mitigation cloak is infinitely better than bolt escape (bolt escape does not mitigate any dmg - hint hint).

Maybe when you don´t understand something (your words) you should not be judgemental about people telling you from their experience that does not match your imagination. Give it a try first.

Don't bother you are wasting your breathe. This guy is a broken record. As it is very easy for a sorc to stay in the back lines and pick off low health targets that can't fight back and rack up ridiculous kill to death ratio. He will just post something like this, complain about damage shields, and proceed to tell everyone how good he is without using the skills that he personally finds distasteful.

No damage shields:

Highlighted.

You just described every competitive stamina build out there (that isn't focused on dmg shield/GDB spam).

That's how the game is at the moment.

Of course, some people expect they should be able to tank 20 people in light armour (while stamina builds cannot do it either). I don't know what to tell these people...

Strawman much? I have never seen a serious post on this forum from a player who said a light armour player should be able to tank 20 people...

Well, what are the expectations then for a light armour character without dmg shields or heals?

Of course you can't tank 20 people like you can with permablock+dmg shields/heals, but I'm quite sure you can still play competitively (with a different approach, though). Bolt Escape in, nuke a target, bolt escape out comes to mind. After 1.6, there'll be combos for some serious magicka burst (stealth not required).

That could work, if everyone isn't stacking shields & becoming invincible that is.

Glory

Light armor is squishy: you get caught without a shield up and you're dead.

Medium armor is slippery: you get caught without evading something and you're dead.

Heavy armor is tanky: you run out of resources or drop your defenses and you're dead.

Y'all act like you've never seen a sniper or a two-hander blow a light armor wearer up in a few seconds. Still happens all the time in PTS.

If you think damage shields are "overpowered" compared to other builds you should consider updating your 1.5 build to a 1.6 one. As a light armor wearer I die in a matter of seconds if I don't have a shield up, and stamina users can nearly one shot me if they time their burst right.