Is Champion Point gain fair? Does it need changes?

prototypefb

Ways to get Champion Points:
Grind,
Dungeons(grind),
Quests(mostly grind),
Opening treasure chests(slow exp),
Exploration(limited, low),
Bosses(limited, low)


*option 3 explained:
Everyone get 1 Champion point for being in game for 1 hour, each 12 minutes you get activity check log, if you did several things like
>earned XP(quests, monster kills, treasure chests, exploration of new area),
>earned AP,
>collected nodes,
>sold/bought something,
>created/deconstructed something,
>talked in chat,
>sent/opened mail,
>stole an item(in game ofc),
>read a book/lore(again, in game),

if any of the above check out few times during those 12 minutes, you get awarded 1/5 of CP during 1st hour(or first few) in game, every next hour takes 50% off reward:
2nd hour 1/10 CP every 12 min, 3rd hour 1/20 CP every 12 min etc.

This system is fair to everyone, grinder, pvper, RPer, crafter, farmer, anyone basically, no bias!
And it pretty much caps CP gain to 2 per day(or whatever value you decide), reset should occur once per day at specific time, or have a 23 hr timer to reset each day.

This design allows for developers to adjust CP gain at ANY given moment, perhaps, adding individual rate for achieved characters(high on trials, pvp ranking, achievements, success in events, Cyrodiil underdog buff etc) or for whole servers as a gift for festive periods or event achievements.

@ZOS_GinaBruno current PTS system does not allow freedom to do whatever in game and get rewarded with CP, you need to grind to achieve character progression way faster than other way. You're will be pigeonholed into grinding 1 best rewarding group dungeon in order to achieve your goal on CP afap.

Wolfsspinne

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

Great... a progress system that rewards me for doing nothing at all.

I'm all in favor of playing RPG-stuff in an RPG, which means doing quests, smashing heads and earning XP for it. I wonder how it happened that some ppl want RPGs to stop being RPGs anymore.

If everyone was meant to be on an equal footing, don't you think that then there would be no levels at all?


I'd like PvP to be just as rewarding as questing and grinding.
But if you do "nothing" you should gain the same nothing.

liquid_wolf

Yes, seems fair, no need to make any changes

The only time system for Champion Points that would work, is something akin to EVE... where you queue certain unlocks and schedule the time it will take to get that learning/point.

Earning CP for set time played will be MUCH lower than being able to grind it out. This is because they don't want anyone capping all the points... the system is never meant to be completed.

You won't ever get all the points, and they will likely keep adding onto it, or expanding it, every few months or at least once a year.

This is... of course... speculation. If they don't add to it, then eventually people will cap it out... but the whole system is supposed to reward continual game-play/grind.

These types of systems get added to fairly frequently.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

liquid_wolf wrote: »

The only time system for Champion Points that would work, is something akin to EVE... where you work towards certain unlocks and queue up that learning/point.

Per game-time played will be MUCH lower than being able to grind. This is because they don't want anyone capping all the skills... the system is never meant to be completed.

You won't ever get max level in it, and they will likely keep adding onto it, or expanding it, every few months or at least once a year.

value can always be adjusted, but current PTS system rewards grinders far too much compared to pvpers, and others that don't to those things get next to nothing/nothing.
This effectively forces every1 willing to earn CP to do repeat best XP dungeon, because all decent open zone farm spots will be busy 24/7. I want to see responses 1 month later when every1 will be sick of repeating same dungeon over and over again to earn few CP a day.That would kill the game, mostly cause of repetitive boredom, just my 2 cents

technohic

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

I like that you at least are trying to come up with an idea toward how people progress to replace just grinding, as that is going to make it no different than VR levels until that is done; but You still need to be doing something.

Pretty much, PvP needs to be balanced a little more to bring it closer to questing.

Sallington

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

I wish they would just tie Champ Points to Achievements. 1 champ point = 10 Achievement points or something. That would actually give people goals outside of "I have to go grind or I'll fall behind"

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

technohic wrote: »

I like that you at least are trying to come up with an idea toward how people progress to replace just grinding, as that is going to make it no different than VR levels until that is done; but You still need to be doing something.

Pretty much, PvP needs to be balanced a little more to bring it closer to questing.

it is quite difficult(maybe impossible)to balance using XP as a factor, due to different builds, opponents, playstyles. Healer/tank trying solo questing/grinding would get far less XP than effective DD. Anyone gathering nodes would get nothing apart maybe from random kill here and there, RPers would get nothing.
Only thing that everyone playing game uses is TIME. That makes TIME as best way to ensure balanced distribution of CP. 1 hour=1 CP sounds fair but there needs to be diminishing returns to prevent severe disparity over casual players and hardcore 'grinders'.

technohic

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

Sallington wrote: »

I wish they would just tie Champ Points to Achievements. 1 champ point = 10 Achievement points or something. That would actually give people goals outside of "I have to go grind or I'll fall behind"

That would be even worse because then you are pretty much railroading people into chasing achievements over doing what they have fun doing.

Actually; the more I think about it, I am starting to think this entire champion system is even worse than VR levels. Its not horizontal, really. Its just really slow progress but nearly infinitely longer. You will have people eventually grind out enough points for it to be noticeable and its just going to be worse.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

Sallington wrote: »

I wish they would just tie Champ Points to Achievements. 1 champ point = 10 Achievement points or something. That would actually give people goals outside of "I have to go grind or I'll fall behind"

yeah it would be better than current system but thing is achievements are bugged and limited, and what about players who have done most achievements?ZOS would not reward so much for already done stuff and hardly anyone would be willing to redo all those on next character.

Rev Rielle

Yes, seems fair, no need to make any changes

Another person that's all about the destination and not the journey, when will you people learn! ZOS clearly said Champion Points are not about trying to max them out as quickly as possible, but are more so a form of progress that ticks along whilst you play the game.

It's fine. Let actually enjoy the system for a while before we nail it to the cross.

Oh and I think you need to look up what 'grind' means. Because your usage of it leads me (and I'm sure many others) to believe you don't.

Honestly, you kids...

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Another person that's all about the destination and not the journey, when will you people learn! ZOS clearly said Champion Points are not about trying to max them out as quickly as possible, but are more so a form of progress that ticks along whilst you play the game.

It's fine. Let actually enjoy the system for a while before we nail it to the cross.

Oh and I think you need to look up what 'grind' means. Because your usage of it leads me (and I'm sure many others) to believe you don't.

Honestly, you kids...

Did you actually read what i wrote?
It indeed is about journey, not destination - my proposed option would reward
EVERYONE just about the same CP no matter what direction they decide to go, whether grind or pvp or gather or hunt treasure chests or RP or anything you desire in game, you still get rewarded same as hardcore grinder.

I foresee this new system pigeonholing people into 1 dungeon they will find most XP intense. This will get boring fast and will kill the game!

As for grind, i think i know what grind means: i used to play game where i solo grinded one of highest mobs in the game for 4-5 hours a day solo(could not party grind due to unstable internet connection, con always dropped in party, solo was ok) constant pull, buff, kill, rinse-repeat.

Rev Rielle

Yes, seems fair, no need to make any changes

prototypefb wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Another person that's all about the destination and not the journey, when will you people learn! ZOS clearly said Champion Points are not about trying to max them out as quickly as possible, but are more so a form of progress that ticks along whilst you play the game.

It's fine. Let actually enjoy the system for a while before we nail it to the cross.

Oh and I think you need to look up what 'grind' means. Because your usage of it leads me (and I'm sure many others) to believe you don't.

Honestly, you kids...

Did you actually read what i wrote?
It indeed is about journey, not destination - my proposed option would reward
EVERYONE just about the same CP no matter what direction they decide to go, whether grind or pvp or gather or hunt treasure chests or RP or anything you desire in game, you still get rewarded same as hardcore grinder.

I foresee this new system pigeonholing people into 1 dungeon they will find most XP intense. This will get boring fast and will kill the game!

As for grind, i think i know what grind means: i used to play game where i solo grinded one of highest mobs in the game for 4-5 hours a day solo(could not party grind due to unstable internet connection, con always dropped in party, solo was ok) constant pull, buff, kill, rinse-repeat.

Well if you indeed know what grind means, I believe you've completely misused it in your opening post. Fairness is an illusion, it's never achieved in any MMO - especially in terms of 'experience gain'. There are just far too many variables to take into account to make a system truly fair in ESO.

As an example: If people want to grind dungeons, that's totally up to them. In my point of view they've forgotten what it means to play a game and are taking things far too seriously if that's the case. Treating these things more like a job (work for the money; grind for the CP) rather than a game to be enjoyed. It's difficult to balance things when elements of the player base play the game outside the bounds of what was intended by the developers.

That being said, your idea about diminishing returns does have some merit, but I think it's looking at things a little negatively, especially in terms of things like dungeon-running. It would in fact feel like a kind of penalty after a while. And penalising player-player interaction in an MMO is something a development team should never do.

Having point gain for just logging into the game is not the way to go, for logging in to the game is not playing the game at all. It's in a way akin to the EVE Online system, and whilst that system works very will for EVE, ESO is mechanically a completely different type of game.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

Rev Rielle wrote: »

prototypefb wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Another person that's all about the destination and not the journey, when will you people learn! ZOS clearly said Champion Points are not about trying to max them out as quickly as possible, but are more so a form of progress that ticks along whilst you play the game.

It's fine. Let actually enjoy the system for a while before we nail it to the cross.

Oh and I think you need to look up what 'grind' means. Because your usage of it leads me (and I'm sure many others) to believe you don't.

Honestly, you kids...

Did you actually read what i wrote?
It indeed is about journey, not destination - my proposed option would reward
EVERYONE just about the same CP no matter what direction they decide to go, whether grind or pvp or gather or hunt treasure chests or RP or anything you desire in game, you still get rewarded same as hardcore grinder.

I foresee this new system pigeonholing people into 1 dungeon they will find most XP intense. This will get boring fast and will kill the game!

As for grind, i think i know what grind means: i used to play game where i solo grinded one of highest mobs in the game for 4-5 hours a day solo(could not party grind due to unstable internet connection, con always dropped in party, solo was ok) constant pull, buff, kill, rinse-repeat.

Well if you indeed know what grind means, I believe you've completely misused it in your opening post. Fairness is an illusion, it's never achieved in any MMO - especially in terms of 'experience gain'. There are just far too many variables to take into account to make a system truly fair in ESO.

As an example: If people want to grind dungeons, that's totally up to them. In my point of view they've forgotten what it means to play a game and are taking things far too seriously if that's the case. Treating these things more like a job (work for the money; grind for the CP) rather than a game to be enjoyed. It's difficult to balance things when elements of the player base play the game outside the bounds of what was intended by the developers.

That being said, your idea about diminishing returns does have some merit, but I think it's looking at things a little negatively, especially in terms of things like dungeon-running. It would in fact feel like a kind of penalty after a while. And penalising player-player interaction in an MMO is something a development team should never do.

Having point gain for just logging into the game is not the way to go, for logging in to the game is not playing the game at all. It's in a way akin to the EVE Online system, and whilst that system works very will for EVE, ESO is mechanically a completely different type of game.

no system is perfect, but diminishing returns protects people from leaving computer running bot(or different timezone/shift work account sharers) 24/7 and earning massive amounts of CP while they sleep.

I believe CP should be flexible to gain no matter what you do in game, as long as you're logged in 1-2 hours a day, any extra time should be rewarded less and less for reasons above(besides people should sleep at some point and maybe go to work/school).

NukeAllTheThings

What is "normal play" in this game as it stands today? I guess when the game was released normal was playing through the story, right? Almost a year into it I think most who were around from the start have played through the story....and the 2nd.....and the 3rd.

So what is normal now? There is no new story but we have some dungeons to play in. I guess we could roll alts. You see, it is all a grind with no new content. I am either constantly doing the exact same story I have already done on 6 characters, I am doing the exact same dungeons I have done dozens of times or I an running in the same loop hundreds of times killing mobs. Grind is a grind and there is no "normal play" any more. It is just finding what grind you enjoy the most and which grind is worth your time.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

3rdwardhobocub18_ESO wrote: »

What is "normal play" in this game as it stands today? I guess when the game was released normal was playing through the story, right? Almost a year into it I think most who were around from the start have played through the story....and the 2nd.....and the 3rd.

So what is normal now? There is no new story but we have some dungeons to play in. I guess we could roll alts. You see, it is all a grind with no new content. I am either constantly doing the exact same story I have already done on 6 characters, I am doing the exact same dungeons I have done dozens of times or I an running in the same loop hundreds of times killing mobs. Grind is a grind and there is no "normal play" any more. It is just finding what grind you enjoy the most and which grind is worth your time.

there is PLENTY of things to do in game, not all of them reward XP tho, therefore no CP but they are all part of ESO universe, and should be rewarded adequately.
It shouldn't matter if you're hardcore grinder, pvper, quest machine, RPer, gatherer, explorer or anything else, you should be awarded equal amount of CP with limits ofcourse to prevent exploitation(bots etc).

Joejudas

how about a " it supports only casuals and is a broken piece of crap" option. im refuse to spend 10000000000000000000000000000000 hours trying to grind cp since im vr14 and zos decided to nerf my character without providing any new cotent to complete. Dont tell me to go run trials....cause i cant since they nerfed my character. no i wont pvp im not being forced into that

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

Joejudas wrote: »

how about a " it supports only casuals and is a broken piece of crap" option. im refuse to spend 10000000000000000000000000000000 hours trying to grind cp since im vr14 and zos decided to nerf my character without providing any new cotent to complete. Dont tell me to go run trials....cause i cant since they nerfed my character. no i wont pvp im not being forced into that

did you check out option 3? i made rather detailed explanation in description, it supports equal CP gain to almost everyone, only depending on limited time(with diminishing rewards) spent in game, doing anything.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

grind support will make this game ghost town...
CP gain needs to be scaled at least so normal questing=grind=pvp

Joejudas

If it still takes 4 hours for 1 cp on live day for 1.6 I'm out

Jice

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

I'm fine with it taking long, it's not hard to see that they function as a almost limitless source of small levels, if you've ever played the like of Phantasy Star Online or Other JRPG's that have no max level cap, you are usually fine with a long progression that will likely never end but doesn't hinder game play or effectiveness.

So the system itself I don't mind, what I do mind though is that it's not sourced from enough places. Killing Mobs or Enemy players that's it. That's 2/12ths of things you can actually be doing. What's even more annoying that that the new justice content doesn't barely give CP. What I want to see is getting small amounts of CP gain for doing almost literally anything:

Mine a Node, CP
Send an In game Mail, CP.
Invite someone to a Guild and they accept, CP.
Sell Items to a Vendor or Fence, CP.
Loot a Crate, CP.
Die to Slaughter Fish, CP.

If you're actively doing something in the game there should be some CP gain. Obviously the best way of getting them should be to Quest and Dungeons, but when that's the ONLY way, it feels kinda forced if you want to make any progression at all while doing other things you enjoy about the game.

They could even make Exploration relevant again by having important locations have a cool down. So even if you've been there before and got the bonus, then if you don't go there again for say, a month, you should be able to go back and get that discovery bonus again.

When we lose VR ranks, that will mean there's 12 endgame zones that are equal footing with each other when it comes to difficulty, which means tons of delves and places to run around and enjoy the scenery or farm chains etc. But Zeni isn't utilising it as they should be. Every Zone should have scaled daily quests for Delves, every zone should have daily Bounties for world bosses. It's a massive world and they squander it for only the 1-50 experience. I can't even tell you the last time I've been to Riven Spire, because there's 0 reason for me to go there after getting past VR 3 [EP].

ashlee17

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

the diminishing returns of the champion system along with it being 4x harder to earn a CP when not enlightened feels like a double kick in the teeth to dedicated players.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

ashlee17 wrote: »

the diminishing returns of the champion system along with it being 4x harder to earn a CP when not enlightened feels like a double kick in the teeth to dedicated players.

diminishing returns would protect game from certain persons botting 24/7 just to gain CP.

Turelus

Considering it's something like 1.4 billion EXP needed to max the champion points out, I look forward to seeing people grind all that without getting bored.

While grinding does seem to have an advantage I don't think the points themselves are such super buffs everyone will grind for them.

Joejudas

Rev Rielle

Yes, seems fair, no need to make any changes

prototypefb wrote: »

3rdwardhobocub18_ESO wrote: »

What is "normal play" in this game as it stands today? I guess when the game was released normal was playing through the story, right? Almost a year into it I think most who were around from the start have played through the story....and the 2nd.....and the 3rd.

So what is normal now? There is no new story but we have some dungeons to play in. I guess we could roll alts. You see, it is all a grind with no new content. I am either constantly doing the exact same story I have already done on 6 characters, I am doing the exact same dungeons I have done dozens of times or I an running in the same loop hundreds of times killing mobs. Grind is a grind and there is no "normal play" any more. It is just finding what grind you enjoy the most and which grind is worth your time.

there is PLENTY of things to do in game, not all of them reward XP tho, therefore no CP but they are all part of ESO universe, and should be rewarded adequately.
It shouldn't matter if you're hardcore grinder, pvper, quest machine, RPer, gatherer, explorer or anything else, you should be awarded equal amount of CP with limits ofcourse to prevent exploitation(bots etc).

If you're enjoying a part of the game that doesn't reward you with champion point progression, then chances are you don't need champion points to enjoy that part of the game in the first place. So it won't matter to those players at all whether they're getting experience towards their champion points or not.

I think it's wrong (and basically impossible to implement) experience rewards for all these things, in any sort of balanced fair way. I also think it's wrong to want to make all these game-activities associated with CP, or have CP as the driving force for doing them. Too many players wrongly assume MMOs these days are all about grinding your character to the max level/maximum strength as it is, we don't need to perpetuate that myth.

Ysne58

Yes, seems fair, no need to make any changes

I pressed the wrong button. I meant to press the second option and there doesn't seem to be a way to change my vote.

TheBull

PvErs lulz

RDMyers65b14_ESO

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

I have tested this twice on the pts. Both times I had the enlightenment. I was grinding in Coldharbor. The first time I was at 100k xp and the second time I was at 250k xp. So either I don't have a high enough grinding spot or it will take longer than an hour to get the cp.

prototypefb

Champion Point gain should be time based with severe diminishing returns to avoid exploitation *

Ysne58 wrote: »

I pressed the wrong button. I meant to press the second option and there doesn't seem to be a way to change my vote.

yeah, there is no way to change your vote.
Would be nice tho for thread starter to change other person votes, just to make poll more 1-sided

Nyghthowler

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

Time based is a TERRIBLE idea. It encourages people to stay logged in even though they aren't playing, which creates lag and log in queues.

DanielMaxwell

No, it favours grinding instead of 'normal play', needs some adjustments(grind vs pvp, RP, crafters)

they need to adjust the xp to cp rate down to the 200k used for the conversion of the VR players xp

for the conversion of VR to cp they did up to 14 million xp = 70 cp , that equals 200k xp per cp granted . ZOS needs to use that rate for the xp to cp rate of gain for players trying to progress in the champion system . Using a higher amount of xp to cp rate is unfair to players who do not have any VR characters , and going to a lower rate would not be fair to the VR players who are receiving cp's based on their VR xp.