TWOHAND WEAPON LINE unbalanced stacking ?

Beleron

UPDATE -- ZENIMAX PLEASE READ!
This is what has come from the posts in this thread.

1. since momentum carrys over to other stam based weapons, and you can activate it before you attack, it can be used to max burst dps. This is over thing like drain power which you first have to attack the target, you can use it then sneak up in stealth.
2.2h used to get its pve dps from burst dmg, and then execute spams. Well as dw and bow had more sustained dps. Now 2h looses the extra 20% dmg buff it had that others didn't get and STACKED on others. Now it doesn't stack, and all can get it.
3.We the players see this now as being forced to have a utility bar of 2h stuff, to max BURST dps, in things like pvp sneak attacks with stam based builds. FORCED, when we want to play 2h just cuz we want to, not because where forced to in order to get the maximum dmg output needed from say, a surprise snipe.

Ways to fix --
not all ideas are mine, there compiled from posts in this thread.
Idea 1. Give major burtality buffs to bow and DW skill morphs, ect.
Idea 2. Give momentum the 20% as a passive buff when slotted that ONLY EFFECTS 2H, so you can stack it on other buffs but it cant be used for other weapons. I know the stacking might be an issue though. Also give momentum a actual attack type skill, like sword and board's low slash or like fighters guild ulti.
Idea 3. Elegant solution: turn it into "Minor Brutality", and give 2H abilities +10% dmg via passives. Now you've got a buff that stacks with potions, and there's no "must slot" momentum in order to play a stealthy assassin character.

---

MOMENTUM.
it gives a buff now, instead of an effect, that buff is NO LONGER TIED TO THE 2H LINE. so the 20% dmg and the heal, carry over when u swap weapons. Stacked with the FREE 20% physical crit from the fighters guild skill, which has been changed and given a passive effect. ( evil hunter and morphs ). The dmg buff from fighters guild ulti. As well as the 8% more dmg u get from grim focus as a nightblade, you can activate it and swap to a bow for example, and hit someone for upwards of 12k in one shot if you crit. The dmg bonuses are stacking far too high, that's approx 40% bonus dmg. With an extra 20% crit....................... if you don't die from a snipe then a critical charge followed by a wrecking blow and then a surprise attack if you feel like it... your hella strong. I was critting with HEAVY ATTACKS on my 2h sword, for 8k-10k with all my gear and stats compiling into health. Full tank build. Yet I could still do that. With most v14's i see having 15k - 30k hp..... yeah

this is my opinion, please post yours!

decado0024_ESO

All of that combined =0 effect against on shield.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Your maths seem a bit off. Doesn't Evil Hunter provide a Major Savagery buff that gives +10% critical chance? Where did you get the +20% critical chance from? Unless it is a bug?

Domander

I really like the way momentum works now.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Can someone please verify how much Critical Chance is given by Evil Hunter?

Vordae

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

kkampaseb17_ESO

What you are saying discredits the post of the OP. I don't believe posts with mathematical errors. Thanks for your answer. It clears up things.

Domander

Vordae wrote: »

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

not to mention players haven't maxed out crit damage reduction yet, need a lot more points to do that

Vordae

Also heavy attacks are going to be interrupt able. Heavy attacking at the wrong time will open you up to a lot of counter CC.

Soulac

Not melee heavy attacks. Only ranged and it's not even on pts atm..

kkampaseb17_ESO

Soulac is correct....and imo it is proper for melee heavy to not be interruptable.

Beleron

evil hunter... gives u a # of rating, that converts into a %, its equal to aprox 20%. not 10%. if you use an add-on for extended stats you get 200 more % crit, which is 20%. As for me, i go from 370ish to 670ish, give or take 10. Which when converted to the stat scaling change, its 37% and 67%.

ALSO. Now that momentum carry's over to the other weapons, is there any big reason to use it for pve dps, other then swap to it to pop momentum on for a free 20% dmg ?

Now that momentum just buffs, and it carry's over, I could see it being used as no more then a utility belt.
1. momentum's heal and buff
2. gap closer with charge
3. knockback / knockdown and extended CC.
I see it being more of an off bar you use here and there, not one you mainly use.

I feel that there should be something done with two hand to make it for viable as your main go to weapon, other then some crit charges and cleaves, knockdowns, its all more for pvp, not all that useful on pve bosses that are immune to nearly all CC.
Dev's, any chance for some morph changes, maybe to uppercut to give 2h some more stuff to use in pve specifically. I would like to see a way to give up some of the CC ability, charges, knockdowns, ect ect, for some morphs that give them a different feel. Not saying its horrible, but saying it would be nice so you could see more 2h in dungeons, ect.

Now that momentum just buffs, and it carry's over, I could see it being used as no more then a utility belt.

Beleron

Vordae wrote: »

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

Well first it is 20% as i explained above and second a nb can use surprise attack and easily spam it for 12k hits also. So think about that one...... what does it take, .5 sec per surprise attack? maybe 1 sec for cast and animation ?

DDuke

I made a post about this earlier:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/148635/momentum-a-must-have-for-dw-bow-builds

My problem with this is, that it basicly makes you have to equip 2H in atleast one bar in order to maximize my burst damage.

People should use 2H, because they want to use 2H. Not just to get a buff for their other weapon.

I don't want to nerf 2H, so I believe the best solution would be buffing 2H by 10% via passives, and then make Momentum give Minor Brutality instead of Major.

Another solution would be to make the 20% affect 2H weapons only (like before), but I'm not sure if the new buff system would permit that.

Beleron

DDuke wrote: »

I made a post about this earlier:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/148635/momentum-a-must-have-for-dw-bow-builds

My problem with this is, that it basicly makes you have to equip 2H in atleast one bar in order to maximize my burst damage.

People should use 2H, because they want to use 2H. Not just to get a buff for their other weapon.

I don't want to nerf 2H, so I believe the best solution would be buffing 2H by 10% via passives, and then make Momentum give Minor Brutality instead of Major.

Another solution would be to make the 20% affect 2H weapons only (like before), but I'm not sure if the new buff system would permit that.

OMG YES!
how about we just HAVE MOMENTUM NOT GIVE A BUFF.
have it give SLOTTED PASSIVE TO INCREASE 2H WEAPON DAMAGE BY 20%
then give it an actual attack. Maybe along the lines of sword and boards low slice ( may have named it wrong ) but changed a bit. Something thats not so pvp and CC oriented. Would work great.

Varicite

Beleron wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I made a post about this earlier:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/148635/momentum-a-must-have-for-dw-bow-builds

My problem with this is, that it basicly makes you have to equip 2H in atleast one bar in order to maximize my burst damage.

People should use 2H, because they want to use 2H. Not just to get a buff for their other weapon.

I don't want to nerf 2H, so I believe the best solution would be buffing 2H by 10% via passives, and then make Momentum give Minor Brutality instead of Major.

Another solution would be to make the 20% affect 2H weapons only (like before), but I'm not sure if the new buff system would permit that.

OMG YES!
how about we just HAVE MOMENTUM NOT GIVE A BUFF.
have it give SLOTTED PASSIVE TO INCREASE 2H WEAPON DAMAGE BY 20%
then give it an actual attack. Maybe along the lines of sword and boards low slice ( may have named it wrong ) but changed a bit. Something thats not so pvp and CC oriented. Would work great.

So you want to make it worse than it was before because you don't like the new version?

No.

Domander

Beleron wrote: »

Vordae wrote: »

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

Well first it is 20% as i explained above and second a nb can use surprise attack and easily spam it for 12k hits also. So think about that one...... what does it take, .5 sec per surprise attack? maybe 1 sec for cast and animation ?

It's 10%. Evil hunter gives 10% crit, just like mage light gives 10% spell crit.

The same weapon power buff from momentum is available to nightblades from drain power

Sorcs can use surge.

Neither of those will stack with momentum.

Templar and DK's only option for that particular buff are potions and momentum

and you want to change it?

No.

Beleron

[/quote]

It's 10%. Evil hunter gives 10% crit, just like mage light gives 10% spell crit.

The same weapon power buff from momentum is available to nightblades from drain power

Sorcs can use surge.

Neither of those will stack with momentum.

Templar and DK's only option for that particular buff are potions and momentum

and you want to change it?

No.
[/quote]

......... u need to get a addon that breaks it down and actually look, see, calculate, test. UNLESS a dev can confirm this % number I will go off of the actual addon that is calculating mine, cuz that 37% im starting with -- the 370% non converted is what i see when i add *** up on my own. then i add the rating and wala!..... Up to yall. I could be wrong but from what I can tell 1k rating = 1%. NOT 2k rating =1%
Maybe they intended it to be 2k = 1% but from what I see, that's not the case.

and YES i do want to change it. Twohand has always been a tad weaker than dual, and now that u can use it to buff other weapons, it looses that 20% that put it up on par a bit with others, and becomes a utility belt. Give two hand its 20% boost, and have it only be for twohand, drain power ect can stack on top, the dps will still probably just be on par with dual, in pve.

We should be able to use two hand for more then just CC and utility, and as it is, it WILL NOT hold up in pve boss dps with dual or bow. It needs to be balanced. Bow and DW have dps skills AND cc, slows, ect. Two hand needs something to compete. With that 20% for two hand only and then more from other stuff, it still wasn't holding up to DW and bow pre 1.6 --- as far as stam builds go. --- Maybe with just a 2h and all magica skills, but then once again, ur using magica stuff and the 2h skills are just a utility belt. In essence, they just decreased 2h dps by 20%, really.

DDuke

Domander wrote: »

Beleron wrote: »

Vordae wrote: »

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

Well first it is 20% as i explained above and second a nb can use surprise attack and easily spam it for 12k hits also. So think about that one...... what does it take, .5 sec per surprise attack? maybe 1 sec for cast and animation ?

It's 10%. Evil hunter gives 10% crit, just like mage light gives 10% spell crit.

The same weapon power buff from momentum is available to nightblades from drain power

Sorcs can use surge.

Neither of those will stack with momentum.

Templar and DK's only option for that particular buff are potions and momentum

and you want to change it?

No.

You can't use Drain Power before attacking your opponent, so there goes that possibility for maximizing stealth burst damage.

I don't want to use 2H because it has a buff I need for bow or DW, I want to use 2H because I want to use 2H.
Not saying I do, I'd love to go DW/DW and play a rogue type character, but it wont be possible if Momentum stays as it is.


Only class that has access to the same 20% buff is Sorcerer with Surge, others are SOL (unless you want to use a potion every time you sneak attack someone).

gendarkb16_ESO

So you have momentum and evil hunter in the bar for the 20% weapon buff and the 10% crit buff ?
How about you use a staminapotion (cheapest potion in the game) and surprise !!! your momentum and evil hunter are useless ... really using a stamina pot gives you 2 free slots, So no, momentum is crap for the buff reference and heals the same than in live just that stats buffed x10, when people sees a 1000hot says omg thats crazy but its like a 100 hot right now... the same for damage 12k crits-hits omg !!! but thats a 1200 hit in live so its an average hit really.

2h weapons are underpowered compared to bow ... how is it that bow-snipe does >= damage than 2h-uppercut , from the safest distance in the game, thats really wrong.

DDuke

gendarkb16_ESO wrote: »

So you have momentum and evil hunter in the bar for the 20% weapon buff and the 10% crit buff ?
How about you use a staminapotion (cheapest potion in the game) and surprise !!! your momentum and evil hunter are useless ... really using a stamina pot gives you 2 free slots, So no, momentum is crap for the buff reference and heals the same than in live just that stats buffed x10, when people sees a 1000hot says omg thats crazy but its like a 100 hot right now... the same for damage 12k crits-hits omg !!! but thats a 1200 hit in live so its an average hit really.

2h weapons are underpowered compared to bow ... how is it that bow-snipe does >= damage than 2h-uppercut , from the safest distance in the game, thats really wrong.

That's a good point... changing Momentum to Minor Brutality (+10% weapon damage) could actually be a buff to it, if you're using potions, since then you'd be able to stack both.
I'd still add the remaining 10% damage to 2H passives though (just so people don't complain about it getting "nerfed".

Snipe has been nerfed (once again) heavily in PTS, so it no longer deals even remotely close damage to Uppercut.

Beleron

ummm your all 100% thinking PVP..... THINK ABOUT THE PVE OF IT TOO. Great you can still max BURST dmg, for pvp. But if your going to use it in pve, You still take a hit on ur dps. It needs something to help it sustain dps in pve as more then a utility belt. In pvp its great, you get your burst fine, I know, I have tested. But in pve it is still lacking. Why use a knockdown on stuff you cant knockdown. Cleave on a single boss? charge? If anything momentum and the other will get used as a utility belt and swapped to another weapon for more sustained dps in PVE. The problem is not the burst, or in pvp, its pve. Dungeons, raids, bosses. Have you never wanted to use 2h as ur main weapon to sustain dps on a boss, ect? Cuz the stuff in the 2h tree itself, aint that useful in doing so.

Its about playing how you want to play, so what if you want to use 2h as pve dps. Would you actually do it, or keep it as a utility belt for charge and other CC aspects and to keep momentums weapon buff up, then just swap for DW or bow ?

Varicite

Beleron wrote: »

But if your going to use it in pve, You still take a hit on ur dps. It needs something to help it sustain dps in pve as more then a utility belt. In pvp its great, you get your burst fine, I know, I have tested. But in pve it is still lacking. Why use a knockdown on stuff you cant knockdown. Cleave on a single boss? charge? If anything momentum and the other will get used as a utility belt and swapped to another weapon for more sustained dps in PVE. The problem is not the burst, or in pvp, its pve. Dungeons, raids, bosses. Have you never wanted to use 2h as ur main weapon to sustain dps on a boss, ect? Cuz the stuff in the 2h tree itself, aint that useful in doing so.

2hander was the best stamina DPS weapon up until the Bow was buffed.

I think you may not be doing it right. : /

2h DPS revolves around clipping heavy attacks w/ Wrecking Blow while keeping DoTs active (Cleave, class-based DoTs, etc) and then going into an Executioner spam when the boss is low.

Nothing that you mentioned in your post seems to talk about doing this, which is literally the very basis of 2h DPS.

It's not a "utility belt" as you keep calling it. It's a solid weapon choice for PvE, and a decent finisher / gap closer in PvP.

Momentum was always just icing on the cake before, and now has turned into a serious buff. This is one of the few changes from 1.6 that I do like.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Beleron wrote: »

Vordae wrote: »

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

Well first it is 20% as i explained above and second a nb can use surprise attack and easily spam it for 12k hits also. So think about that one...... what does it take, .5 sec per surprise attack? maybe 1 sec for cast and animation ?

This is incorrect. It is a problem of the addon you are using. The critical chance is calculated as a fraction of the number given divided by 200. Evil hunter gives 2099 which is 10.5%.

Sharee

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Beleron wrote: »

Vordae wrote: »

10% for evil hunter. To be honest hitting someone for 12k is like hitting them for 1.2-1.5k in live. It's really not that much. You would need to hit for 12k 3 times in a row to kill most people. Most people will shield, heal, or do something in the time of 3 snipes.

Well first it is 20% as i explained above and second a nb can use surprise attack and easily spam it for 12k hits also. So think about that one...... what does it take, .5 sec per surprise attack? maybe 1 sec for cast and animation ?

This is incorrect. It is a problem of the addon you are using. The critical chance is calculated as a fraction of the number given divided by 200. Evil hunter gives 2099 which is 10.5%.

Without expert hunter slotted my character screen shows 18.1% melee crit chance, after slotting expert hunter it shows 28.1% melee crit.
(all that without addons changing the character screen UI)

Sharee

Beleron wrote: »

MOMENTUM.
it gives a buff now, instead of an effect, that buff is NO LONGER TIED TO THE 2H LINE. so the 20% dmg and the heal, carry over when u swap weapons. Stacked with the FREE 20% physical crit from the fighters guild skill, which has been changed and given a passive effect. ( evil hunter and morphs ). The dmg buff from fighters guild ulti. As well as the 8% more dmg u get from grim focus as a nightblade, you can activate it and swap to a bow for example, and hit someone for upwards of 12k in one shot if you crit.[/b]

This however has nothing to do with 2H stacking. Only thing 2H listed above is momentum, but the major brutality buff it gives is not exclusive to momentum - for example NB Drain Power gives the same buff.

So i can dualwield swords, slot evil hunter, use power extraction, grim focus, and i get the same 'two handed weapon line damage stacking' you just described.

[EDIT i see someone above already mentioned it, serves me well to reply before reading whole thread ]

DDuke

Sharee wrote: »

Beleron wrote: »

MOMENTUM.
it gives a buff now, instead of an effect, that buff is NO LONGER TIED TO THE 2H LINE. so the 20% dmg and the heal, carry over when u swap weapons. Stacked with the FREE 20% physical crit from the fighters guild skill, which has been changed and given a passive effect. ( evil hunter and morphs ). The dmg buff from fighters guild ulti. As well as the 8% more dmg u get from grim focus as a nightblade, you can activate it and swap to a bow for example, and hit someone for upwards of 12k in one shot if you crit.[/b]

This however has nothing to do with 2H stacking. Only thing 2H listed above is momentum, but the major brutality buff it gives is not exclusive to momentum - for example NB Drain Power gives the same buff.

So i can dualwield swords, slot evil hunter, use power extraction, grim focus, and i get the same 'two handed weapon line damage stacking' you just described.

[EDIT i see someone above already mentioned it, serves me well to reply before reading whole thread ]

Drain Power requires you to hit an enemy to apply, thus not really being a self buff you can use for stealth burst for instance, and it's otherwise pretty much useless for a stamina build.

Only self buff giving Major Brutality apart from Momentum is Surge, and that is for Sorcerers only. Being a Nightblade, I don't want to equip 2H in other weapon slot just to maximize the burst damage.

That said, I want 2H to be viable and that people who actually want to use 2H can feel comfortable using it.

Which is why turning the buff into Minor Brutality (and buffing 2H damage by 10% via passives or something) would be an elegant solution.

Sharee

DDuke wrote: »

Drain Power requires you to hit an enemy to apply, thus not really being a self buff you can use for stealth burst for instance, and it's otherwise pretty much useless for a stamina build.

Power extraction is now a stamina morph.

DDuke wrote: »

Only self buff giving Major Brutality apart from Momentum is Surge, and that is for Sorcerers only.

You can also get it from a potion.

DDuke

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Drain Power requires you to hit an enemy to apply, thus not really being a self buff you can use for stealth burst for instance, and it's otherwise pretty much useless for a stamina build.

Power extraction is now a stamina morph.

DDuke wrote: »

Only self buff giving Major Brutality apart from Momentum is Surge, and that is for Sorcerers only.

You can also get it from a potion.

Drinking a potion every time I want to attack someone doesn't sound very ideal (or cheap), especially given the new 45 second potion CDs

Also, Power Extraction still requires you to hit a target to get the Major Brutality (so you can't use it for reliable burst), and has been useless for a good while now on live. It's not going to be any more viable now.
Nor does it really feel like a stamina skill, it's clearly "magic" (shooting magic beams at your opponents that empower you? Magic).

It actually used to be better even at 1.5 (it didn't cost stamina, which you need for the real damaging abilities, dodging, blocking, CC break etc), and you could get up to 100% more weapon dmg if you hit 10 targets.
I'm not too happy about what they did with it, I believe there could've been far better choices for a stamina morph.

Sharee

DDuke wrote: »

Drinking a potion every time I want to attack someone doesn't sound very ideal (or cheap), especially given the new 45 second potion CDs

I pretty much use a potion in every fight anyway (except for the very one-sided ones, one way or another). Also, stamina potions are not that expensive - dragonthorn and blessed thistle are a byproduct of farming columbine and bugloss so i have tons of those in stock.

DDuke

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Drinking a potion every time I want to attack someone doesn't sound very ideal (or cheap), especially given the new 45 second potion CDs

I pretty much use a potion in every fight anyway (except for the very one-sided ones, one way or another). Also, stamina potions are not that expensive - dragonthorn and blessed thistle are a byproduct of farming columbine and bugloss so i have tons of those in stock.

Still doesn't excuse other people getting the 20% damage boost for free, just by slotting 2H in the other bar.

Besides, using that potion before the fight only means that you're most likely going to die (or have to run away) if it is a 1vX situation.

As said, having Momentum give such a strong buff to all physical skills only means that it's going to be a "must have" for stamina builds (except maybe sorcs), and that right there is bad skill design.

If this game is going to force me to use 2H in order to play a stealthy assassin competitively, I won't waste a second longer in it.


Alternative solutions:

• Make the new Dual Wield cloak ability grant "Major Brutality" as well (atleast one of the morphs).
• Make it available for Bow as well somehow.