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1.6 looks great, forget about b2p/f2p.
Seeing the PTS patch notes and the reaction from people that got to play it a lot, 1.6 is a success. Sure there are many things to tweak still, but that's the point of a public test server.
When 1.6 hits live, it will hopefully have ironed out most of its issues and will definitely be a great step forward for ESO.
Actually, 1.6 is such a great success that its hype only has increased ESO's subscriber counts even two months before its actual release!
http://steamcharts.com/app/306130
Since 17th of December, date of the livestream about 1.6, the active players were growing fast, up to half of what it was at the steam release (alegedly, 772k).
If we consider the community followed the steam trends, it means that at the worst point, in November, it was at 198k subscribers, $35.64M a year.
And we're now back to 410k susbcribers, $73,8M a year, with the growth starting with the 1.6 livestream!
http://www.vg247.com/2014/03/05/funcom-q4-revenues-down-but-mmos-cash-flow-positive/
A studio of similar size, Funcom, has a positive cashflow with the equivalent of 95k susbcribers. So ZOS, must be in the same situation
That's 50% profit margin at its worst and 75% profit margin today!
if we average this out, we obtain around 300k subscribers and $54M yearly. 66% profit margin.
Warframe, top f2p on consoles + PC above DCUO and the best of ESO's future competition, is a huge hit with $54M revenue at 32% profit margin and even chinese chicken breeders want a piece of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-16-digital-extremes-sells-61-per-cent-of-shares-for-usd73-million
My point being that this whole B2P conversion is a huge mistake.
The game can obviously hold people subscribed, and had the DLC plan not gone in motion a few months back, it would be in a better state right now.
Had the dev worked on each zone sequentially instead of working on 7 zones at the same time we probably would have at least one, perhaps two, of them in the game. Wrothgar, Murkmire or the Imperial City.
How many people would have enjoyed this content and resubed to see it then stay for the hype of 1.6? We'll never know.
The difference in box sales between b2p or subscription will not compensate for the years of susbcription the game is forfeiting. And console players are just as ready than PC players to pay a subscription.
A vast majority of those that would be interested in a game like ESO would already be paying for Xbox Live or PSN and it would not be a factor in their decision. It would actually make their current payment bring more bang for their buck.
Even you guys know that:
http://gamerant.com/bethesda-talks-elder-scrolls-online-fees/
http://dailycollegian.com/2014/09/03/final-fantasy-xiv-turns-one-this-month-a-look-back-on-a-realm-reborn/
In only a year, a game like FFXIV managed to reach 2.3M subscribers with 500k average daily active players. And these guys are only on one console platforms.
There is virtualy no competition on the Xbox one. ESO would have a whole market of starved customers.
On another hand, all b2p/f2p games are losing revenue yearly. Even games that are actually not doing that bad (gw2) or have a very strong IP (swtor) lose around 20 to 30 percent revenue each year. SWTOR, star wars for free, can barely attract 1.2M active players. TES is strong, but not as strong as Star Wars.
And finaly, cash shops put too much pressure on game design. They force to make sacrifices and in the end, cause the game to lose quality. Everyone says that, including you guys.
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/21/4643856/elder-scrolls-online-monthly-subscription
http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/12/5499556/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-needs-a-monthly-subscription
http://gamerant.com/bethesda-talks-elder-scrolls-online-fees/
Those links actually make you guys look dishonest. Either then, or now that you try to spring this change on us after months of us paying to finaly see a premium game getting better. No one in their right mind can trust anything you say from now on.
You've lost the most valuable commodity a studio can have: goodwill.
In the end, show this forum post and all the ones like it to whomever wants the b2p switch plans to go through. Whether it is the parent company or investors, teach them the realities of the MMO market for the sake of your creation.
Use the actual numbers we could only interpolate here and explain to them what a mistake it is. Tell them you are throwing away revenue and long term growth just to handle this game like a single player release.
It's not too late, people are angry, but if this community really is your source of inspiration and if you really listen to us, cancel the b2p switch.
An honest apology and fixing this mistake will go a long way towards making the playerbase trust you guys again.
And if you really want additional revenue, go ahead with the costumes, pets and mount skins. Non gameplay impacting cosmetic stuff for people that want to support the game is not too much of a slipery slope and would mean you didn't develop the crown shop for nothing.
@ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_PaulSage @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
And if only I could, @bethesda_PeteHines
When 1.6 hits live, it will hopefully have ironed out most of its issues and will definitely be a great step forward for ESO.
Actually, 1.6 is such a great success that its hype only has increased ESO's subscriber counts even two months before its actual release!
http://steamcharts.com/app/306130
Since 17th of December, date of the livestream about 1.6, the active players were growing fast, up to half of what it was at the steam release (alegedly, 772k).
If we consider the community followed the steam trends, it means that at the worst point, in November, it was at 198k subscribers, $35.64M a year.
And we're now back to 410k susbcribers, $73,8M a year, with the growth starting with the 1.6 livestream!
http://www.vg247.com/2014/03/05/funcom-q4-revenues-down-but-mmos-cash-flow-positive/
A studio of similar size, Funcom, has a positive cashflow with the equivalent of 95k susbcribers. So ZOS, must be in the same situation
That's 50% profit margin at its worst and 75% profit margin today!
if we average this out, we obtain around 300k subscribers and $54M yearly. 66% profit margin.
Warframe, top f2p on consoles + PC above DCUO and the best of ESO's future competition, is a huge hit with $54M revenue at 32% profit margin and even chinese chicken breeders want a piece of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-16-digital-extremes-sells-61-per-cent-of-shares-for-usd73-million
My point being that this whole B2P conversion is a huge mistake.
The game can obviously hold people subscribed, and had the DLC plan not gone in motion a few months back, it would be in a better state right now.
Had the dev worked on each zone sequentially instead of working on 7 zones at the same time we probably would have at least one, perhaps two, of them in the game. Wrothgar, Murkmire or the Imperial City.
How many people would have enjoyed this content and resubed to see it then stay for the hype of 1.6? We'll never know.
The difference in box sales between b2p or subscription will not compensate for the years of susbcription the game is forfeiting. And console players are just as ready than PC players to pay a subscription.
A vast majority of those that would be interested in a game like ESO would already be paying for Xbox Live or PSN and it would not be a factor in their decision. It would actually make their current payment bring more bang for their buck.
Even you guys know that:
http://gamerant.com/bethesda-talks-elder-scrolls-online-fees/
http://dailycollegian.com/2014/09/03/final-fantasy-xiv-turns-one-this-month-a-look-back-on-a-realm-reborn/
In only a year, a game like FFXIV managed to reach 2.3M subscribers with 500k average daily active players. And these guys are only on one console platforms.
There is virtualy no competition on the Xbox one. ESO would have a whole market of starved customers.
On another hand, all b2p/f2p games are losing revenue yearly. Even games that are actually not doing that bad (gw2) or have a very strong IP (swtor) lose around 20 to 30 percent revenue each year. SWTOR, star wars for free, can barely attract 1.2M active players. TES is strong, but not as strong as Star Wars.
And finaly, cash shops put too much pressure on game design. They force to make sacrifices and in the end, cause the game to lose quality. Everyone says that, including you guys.
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/21/4643856/elder-scrolls-online-monthly-subscription
http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/12/5499556/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-needs-a-monthly-subscription
http://gamerant.com/bethesda-talks-elder-scrolls-online-fees/
Those links actually make you guys look dishonest. Either then, or now that you try to spring this change on us after months of us paying to finaly see a premium game getting better. No one in their right mind can trust anything you say from now on.
You've lost the most valuable commodity a studio can have: goodwill.
In the end, show this forum post and all the ones like it to whomever wants the b2p switch plans to go through. Whether it is the parent company or investors, teach them the realities of the MMO market for the sake of your creation.
Use the actual numbers we could only interpolate here and explain to them what a mistake it is. Tell them you are throwing away revenue and long term growth just to handle this game like a single player release.
It's not too late, people are angry, but if this community really is your source of inspiration and if you really listen to us, cancel the b2p switch.
An honest apology and fixing this mistake will go a long way towards making the playerbase trust you guys again.
And if you really want additional revenue, go ahead with the costumes, pets and mount skins. Non gameplay impacting cosmetic stuff for people that want to support the game is not too much of a slipery slope and would mean you didn't develop the crown shop for nothing.
@ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_PaulSage @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
And if only I could, @bethesda_PeteHines
21
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Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭The current increase in the player base could just be new players buying a cheap key now in anticipation of the B2P conversion.
I'm pretty sure the higher-ups have gone through the numbers, and decided it would be more profitable to go this route.5 -
Lord_Draevan✭✭✭✭✭
✭I guarantee you the B2P switch and cash shop intro was not made by ZOS. It was likely made by the company that owns them, ZeniMax Media Inc, hoping for a quick buck from their subsidiary.Edited by Lord_Draevan on January 29, 2015 8:48PMI'm a man of few words. Any questions?NA/PC server4 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭They have lost even more developers in the last 3 months.. That alone tells me that the people that are left are willing to "Ride this ***** till the wheels fall off"
With the announcement that after 1.6 there will be no other large updates says it all.. My concern is they are going to then just milk players through the cash shop until the wheels actually do fall off and people no longer play the game at all..
Those developers that left did so on their own btw..Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington7 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reversal is not an option. It's like when NB presses ambush from sneak; he's committed to dastardly attack and has to kill or die.1 -
Bouvin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly, I'm not that impressed with 1.6 after playing it.
It seems like they nerfed everyone, then are letting you get "back up to par" by spending points in the Champion System.
Which it is taking most people 6-8 hours to get one point while enlightened. You can get down to 1-2 hours while enlightened by grinding Craglorn but who wants to spend 3600-7200 hours of their life doing that.
Seems like they are just setting up for "convenience" cash shop purchases for CP related increases to make a few bucks off of the players base just to get their characters back to where they were pre-1.6.8 -
rawne1980b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Warframe, top f2p on consoles + PC above DCUO and the best of ESO's future competition, is a huge hit with $54M revenue at 32% profit margin and even chinese chicken breeders want a piece of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-16-digital-extremes-sells-61-per-cent-of-shares-for-usd73-million
You're bringing Warframe up in an MMORPG forum?
Warframe is a co-op third person shooter.
Completely different genre.
Here's the sad truth of the matter ... your opinion means nothing. ZOS may take suggestions on board with development but they answer to powers that be at Zenimax. When they say jump, ZOS says "how high".
Those at Zenimax don't know your name, they don't care. You are a number and if you stop playing they replace your number with another one.
Some people are under the extreme delusion that they pay the developers wage, they don't. Zenimax pays the developers wage and they have a lot of other money coming in on top of what ESO brings.
They will have already made their money back for development costs, now they want more.
You can kick and scream and demand they don;t switch to buy to play but it's falling on deaf ears. They are still going to do it and it's still going to bring them more money.
As soon as Fallout 4 hits the shelves they will be swimming in another pool of money, same when TES 6 comes out. Don't ever think you are important enough to sway a big decision. People at ZOS may want you to keep playing but Zenimax will make money with or without you.4 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I honestly don't think they can go back on their decision. Right now they just need to figure out ways to keep that money coming in so they can continue to make the kinds of changes we are seeing in 1.6.What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
Rook_Master wrote: »The current increase in the player base could just be new players buying a cheap key now in anticipation of the B2P conversion.
I'm pretty sure the higher-ups have gone through the numbers, and decided it would be more profitable to go this route.
Except that if you reread the thread and check the steam charts the increase started on December when people had mostly no idea the change would occur. In a month + couple weeks we'll see the impact of the b2p news.
Also, this was the "active" stats, so it can only represent those playing. Most that would have bought the game in advance would not activate it until 1month before the change to avoid paying a sub.
@Bouvin
It may bot be to your tastes but it is to many and it had a positive impact through hype alone.
There is dedinitely tweaking to do, I'm a sorc, but what was released is an impressive volume of work and is mostly worth the wait and being subscribed.
@Lord_Draevan
I agree, that's why they need to teach them suits that you do not run an mmo like a single player game.
@rawne1980b16_ESO
I brought up warframe because we know it is doing better than DCUO, the only real competitor to ESO that exists.
It is an interesting figure to represent that something doing potentially much better than what ESO will be doing is still doing less than what ESO is doing now.
And this is not an opinion piece but an assessement based on facts. I may be wrong, I do not have access to the real numbers, but it is undeniable that the industry's climate is bad for f2p/b2p titles compared to subscription.
Popularity is not proof of correctness.
@Gidorick and @JamilaRaj
As I pointed at in the op, they will not be able to keep the money flowing.
Reversal is a matter of survival.
And nothing technicaly prevents them to reverse course. No copies of tamriel unlimited have been sold yet. That gets released in March.
What they need to do is convince the proper people that they are wrong. I'm just attempting to give them ammunition for that.
@Funkopotamus
I did not know about those developers leaving on their own accord. It could be protest or just early settlement to avoid having to post the usual "layoff news" that accompany f2p/b2p switches.
We can't read too much into this.2 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about they keep the buy to play model but make subscribing SO tempting and beneficial that players that play free, and enjoy ESO, will almost certainly sub?What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!1 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, I'm not that impressed with 1.6 after playing it.
It seems like they nerfed everyone, then are letting you get "back up to par" by spending points in the Champion System.
Which it is taking most people 6-8 hours to get one point while enlightened. You can get down to 1-2 hours while enlightened by grinding Craglorn but who wants to spend 3600-7200 hours of their life doing that.
Seems like they are just setting up for "convenience" cash shop purchases for CP related increases to make a few bucks off of the players base just to get their characters back to where they were pre-1.6.
I for one am very impressed with 1.6.
Not only the game feels much better, plays way better, we're also getting Justice System which is the best Update since launch (should've been at launch, but what the hell the wait was worth it, it's even better than I expected it to be).
About Champion System what did you expect? To grind it? I've predicted it a few months ago that it would be 400k xp per 1 champion point. I've also predicted the fastest guys will need at least 2 years. You know thats the very point of horizontal system, never reaching the progression cap. Your mentality is just wrong. Nobody in their sane mind grinds in a horizontal progression.
Also keep in mind that the previous cap was at 14400, so there is plenty of room for expanding it and making sure not more than 0,001% people ever reach the cap in the lifetime of ESO.Edited by Bloodfang on January 30, 2015 6:39AM3 -
How about they keep the buy to play model but make subscribing SO tempting and beneficial that players that play free, and enjoy ESO, will almost certainly sub?
That doesn't work either.
That requires the game to be so broken that it stops attracting new players. It's the strategy SWTOR is taking and they are bleeding money.
Less revenue and lesser game.
Everyone loses.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »
With the announcement that after 1.6 there will be no other large updates says it all.
It would do, if it were true.0 -
Funkopotamus wrote: »
With the announcement that after 1.6 there will be no other large updates says it all.
It would do, if it were true.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2tfb48/welcome_to_the_eso_tamriel_unlimited_aua/cnym1sh
With this and other answers in that AUA, it seems that even content updates won't happen for at least 4 to 6 months. Leaving most people that finished seeing all there was to see in ESO content starved for nearly a year.
Most of the larger updates mentionned before are all now "something we still want to see in the game". Even the PvP aspect of the justice system got an "if/when we implement it..." answer.
Unless they managed to poorly word half a dozen statements, we're not getting anything new mechanics wise until 2016, and no new content until last quarter of 2015.
On another hand ,had they not planed this b2p switch for a few months now, they could have worked on new zones sequentially and release them progressively instead of all 6-7 at once a few months after console release.
1 -
Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭FF realm reborn is available on pc,360,ps3,ps4,xbone
And they can all play together ...its not just on 1 console
Also eso has alot of competition on cobsole actually,
Planetside2
Neverwinter p2w garbage
Dragons dogma in japan states next possibly
Destiny as garbage as it is people still play it like wow
CoD
Dying light
Raindbow six siege or wtf ever they calling it now
Battle field hardline
Gta 5 online heists might actually be out by then
Dcuo
Final fantasy realm reborn
Warframe
Deadisland
Could prolly find more but hopfully you get the idea.
Being b2p on console could work out great, GW2 did amazing with the model, and they allowed people to buy gold ... Least eso isnt starting with p2w stuff.
Paying a sub doesnt gaurantee content or quality
Example wow, their next update is a flippin "selfie " camera and quests to upgrade it ......Edited by Naivefanboi on January 30, 2015 8:36AM1 -
jjf42001_ESO wrote: »FF realm reborn is available on pc,360,ps3,ps4,xbone
And they can all play together ...its not just on 1 console
Not xbox one, not yet.
All you can find is that they were in talks to get on the xbone.
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/129355-final-fantasy-xiv-could-be-coming-to-xbox-one-after-all-yoshida-confirms-microsoft-talks
You're probably confusing it with FF11 which is available on xbox 360.1 -
Naivefanboi✭✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »jjf42001_ESO wrote: »FF realm reborn is available on pc,360,ps3,ps4,xbone
And they can all play together ...its not just on 1 console
Not xbox one, not yet.
All you can find is that they were in talks to get on the xbone.
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/129355-final-fantasy-xiv-could-be-coming-to-xbox-one-after-all-yoshida-confirms-microsoft-talks
You're probably confusing it with FF11 which is available on xbox 360.
Well it might not be on xbone, but i have it on my ps4. ...
And no its realm reborn
Hopfully it never goes to xbone lolEdited by Naivefanboi on January 30, 2015 8:39AM1 -
jjf42001_ESO wrote: »FF realm reborn is available on pc,360,ps3,ps4,xbone
And they can all play together ...its not just on 1 console
Also eso has alot of competition on cobsole actually,
Planetside2
Neverwinter p2w garbage
Dragons dogma in japan states next possibly
Destiny as garbage as it is people still play it like wow
CoD
Dying light
Raindbow six siege or wtf ever they calling it now
Battle field hardline
Gta 5 online heists might actually be out by then
Dcuo
Final fantasy realm reborn
Warframe
Deadisland
Could prolly find more but hopfully you get the idea.
Being b2p on console could work out great, GW2 did amazing with the model, and they allowed people to buy gold ... Least eso isnt starting with p2w stuff.
Paying a sub doesnt gaurantee content or quality
Example wow, their next update is a flippin "selfie " camera and quests to upgrade it ......jjf42001_ESO wrote: »frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »jjf42001_ESO wrote: »FF realm reborn is available on pc,360,ps3,ps4,xbone
And they can all play together ...its not just on 1 console
Not xbox one, not yet.
All you can find is that they were in talks to get on the xbone.
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/129355-final-fantasy-xiv-could-be-coming-to-xbox-one-after-all-yoshida-confirms-microsoft-talks
You're probably confusing it with FF11 which is available on xbox 360.
Well it might not be on xbone, but i have it on my ps4. ...
And no its realm reborn
For your edit of the first comment: I took what was better than the best competition they had: DCUO and Warframe, both available on both PC, ps4 and/or ps3.
All those other games you've listed are doing worse than the two best revenue maker of the platform.
The point was that the best they can hope to achieve is the revenue they are doing now. And to do that would require many changes, including p2w aspect.
GW2 had great sales at launch, and is the flagship of the b2p model. However, it is not doing wonders with the model and is consistently losing 20-30% revenue every year. They are doing an expansion to counteract the fact that a cash shop does not sustain a game properly.
And ESO is starting out with p2w items or anounced ones. Thieves guild and the Dark brotherhood content and skill lines will apparently be DLCs. And boosters/convenience items are an indirect form of p2w as well.
But you're right that a susbcription model does not guarantee quality.
But it is the only model that allows it.
When the devs have stable monthly revenue, they can allow themselves to focus on improving the game rather than creating more of whatever sells the most in the cash shop.
They also don't have the presure to release things at a high frequency, they can take the time to do more under the hood work, like 1.6 is, in order to improve on the long term appeal of the game.
Look at the OP again: If what they anounce pleases players, they will subscripe and remain subscribed even before the changes get released.
If they deliver what they promised, they increase the trust factor and even more people will susbcribe next time they anounce something.
It's a virtuous circle.1 -
marcmyb14_ESO✭✭✭B2P will be fine. I seriously think people are overreacting. You just don't understand business. Console players (for the most part) don't want to pay a monthly sub, this will get their attention. I bet most fans of TES games feel the same way. You pro-subbers are from an MMO crowd, but ESO crosses the boundaries between SP and MMO. Have faith that this game will still be great a year, two years, three years, even five years down the road from now. In fact, it'll be much, much better.GM Oghma Infinium - Ebonheart Pact
VR14 Imperial Dragonknight - Indualis Decimius
VR14 High Elf Sorcerer - Arienna Stormcaller
VR1 Dark Elf Dragonknight - Flame and Shadow
26 Khajiit Nightblade - J'Kaaz Vulon
10 Breton Templar - Sam Guevene3 -
marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »B2P will be fine. I seriously think people are overreacting. You just don't understand business. Console players (for the most part) don't want to pay a monthly sub, this will get their attention. I bet most fans of TES games feel the same way. You pro-subbers are from an MMO crowd, but ESO crosses the boundaries between SP and MMO. Have faith that this game will still be great a year, two years, three years, even five years down the road from now. In fact, it'll be much, much better.
History proves you wrong.
No f2P/b2p games ever improved with that business model, either revenue wise or gameplay wise. They all bleed revenue every year and all have to become worse and worse over time in order to compensate and keep selling "convenience".
This is just not a sustainable model.
FF11 and FF14, even the portion of DCUO paying $30 a month also proves you wrong about console players and their willingness to pay for a subscription.
Console players are just like PC players, they are willing to pay for quality.
Heck, console players actually pay far more than pc players in average and they have far less f2p options than pc players.
They will pay for a sub without an issue.
And finally, ESO has to be an MMO to succeed on the long term.
Skyrim may have had a lot of success, but ESO is not Skyrim. Solo players will not keep on playing it and paying for the months or years necessary for an MMO to succeed. The additional sales compared to what would have sold as a subscription is marginal, expecially compared to the subscription revenue that is being lost. Anyone that expected to play something similar to Skyrim has been disapointed with ESO so far, and it will be the same on consoles.
The best bet for ESO is to embrace its true nature: an MMO set in Tamriel.
It is NOT a TES game and it will never be, and at this point, it is not yet a fully accomplished MMO. Going the DLC adventures road with a cash shop is driving away its core audience to pelase an audience that does not exist.1 -
Lorkhan✭✭✭✭✭marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »B2P will be fine. I seriously think people are overreacting. You just don't understand business. Console players (for the most part) don't want to pay a monthly sub, this will get their attention. I bet most fans of TES games feel the same way. You pro-subbers are from an MMO crowd, but ESO crosses the boundaries between SP and MMO. Have faith that this game will still be great a year, two years, three years, even five years down the road from now. In fact, it'll be much, much better.
this0 -
Brittany_Joy✭✭✭✭B2P is not so bad. The problem is that ESO does not have any competitive PvP. Small-scale PvP such as WoW's Arena and LoL's Ranked 5v5 tend to attract more dedicated and active players. Wildstar has arenas and yet it isn't swimming in the dough, so there is another variable. Balance and variety is very important to keep the attention of the consumer.
ESO needs to provide a multitude of different play styles to satisfy the player's need for individualism. They can make it easy just by building around archetypes; They need a viable build for a Shapeshifter, Necromancer, Shaman, Mage, Warrior, Thief, and Hybrid play styles. Ensuring that there are viable builds for each playstyle will keep players satisfied and interested in ESO.
ESO needs competitive PvP and a variety of builds that offer unique playstyles to keep and attract consumers. PvE is another important aspect that needs to be considered.
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@Brittany_Joy
I'm not sure ESO needs arenas, but if it does, it has to come under a certain form.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/147966/use-arenas-as-pvp-incentives
But the thing is: PvP does not sell anything on the cash shop if it is designed to be "competitive". ESO has had a unique selling proposition in the form of RvR done mostly right, yet it never capitalised on it when it was subscription based.
It will certainly not do it when it will be b2p/f2p.
If you want to have PvP being even looked at, it needs to be a factor of economic success. For that, it needs to be under a model where logevity of the game actually matters and reward the developers with more money.
That's the subscription model.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Funkopotamus wrote: »
With the announcement that after 1.6 there will be no other large updates says it all.
It would do, if it were true.
Unless they managed to poorly word half a dozen statements, we're not getting anything new mechanics wise until 2016, and no new content until last quarter of 2015.
And even if that is correct, it's not what was originally stated by Funkopotamus. He didn't put a time frame on it, he said they had announced there would be no other large updates. Personally, I think we'll see something before the last quarter.0 -
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »Funkopotamus wrote: »
With the announcement that after 1.6 there will be no other large updates says it all.
It would do, if it were true.
Unless they managed to poorly word half a dozen statements, we're not getting anything new mechanics wise until 2016, and no new content until last quarter of 2015.
And even if that is correct, it's not what was originally stated by Funkopotamus. He didn't put a time frame on it, he said they had announced there would be no other large updates. Personally, I think we'll see something before the last quarter.
Yes, we'll see some adjustment patches to correct bug/issues with 1.6 before the console launch and a few months after that some DLCs. But nothing touching on improving the core of the game. Funkopotamus was somewhat exagerating, but he wasn't entirely wrong.
There will be nothing even remotely as big as 1.6 ever again simply because the devs will never have the leisure to spend so much time on core mechanics. 3 months without working on revenue inducing changes will kill them.Edited by frosth.darkomenb16_ESO on January 30, 2015 11:13AM0 -
McDoogs✭✭✭✭Honestly, I'm not that impressed with 1.6 after playing it.
It seems like they nerfed everyone, then are letting you get "back up to par" by spending points in the Champion System.
Which it is taking most people 6-8 hours to get one point while enlightened. You can get down to 1-2 hours while enlightened by grinding Craglorn but who wants to spend 3600-7200 hours of their life doing that.
Seems like they are just setting up for "convenience" cash shop purchases for CP related increases to make a few bucks off of the players base just to get their characters back to where they were pre-1.6.
I for one am very impressed with 1.6.
Not only the game feels much better, plays way better, we're also getting Justice System which is the best Update since launch (should've been at launch, but what the hell the wait was worth it, it's even better than I expected it to be).
About Champion System what did you expect? To grind it? I've predicted it a few months ago that it would be 400k xp per 1 champion point. I've also predicted the fastest guys will need at least 2 years. You know thats the very point of horizontal system, never reaching the progression cap. Your mentality is just wrong. Nobody in their sane mind grinds in a horizontal progression.
Also keep in mind that the previous cap was at 14400, so there is plenty of room for expanding it and making sure not more than 0,001% people ever reach the cap in the lifetime of ESO.
It's not horizontal though, its vertical, and the first 150ish points will be used up just getting our VR14s to current power levels.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
There will be nothing even remotely as big as 1.6 ever again simply because the devs will never have the leisure to spend so much time on core mechanics. 3 months without working on revenue inducing changes will kill them.
Not just for that reason, but because they'll want to split up multiple additions/revamps into separate chunks so they can charge separately for them. Then again, 1.6 would have been a one-off even if the business model had remained unchanged - it addresses so many facets of the game that the need for a similar all-encompassing update would never be likely to arise again. At least they're still implementing that now rather than coming up with excuses to delay it beyond the changeover so they could put some of it behind a paywall which is what some developers would have done.Edited by Tandor on January 30, 2015 11:25AM0 -
frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »
There will be nothing even remotely as big as 1.6 ever again simply because the devs will never have the leisure to spend so much time on core mechanics. 3 months without working on revenue inducing changes will kill them.
Not just for that reason, but because they'll want to split up multiple additions/revamps into separate chunks so they can charge separately for them. Then again, 1.6 would have been a one-off even if the business model had remained unchanged - it addresses so many facets of the game that the need for a similar all-encompassing update would never be likely to arise again. At least they're still implementing that now rather than coming up with excuses to delay it beyond the changeover so they could put some of it behind a paywall which is what some developers would have done.
True, 1.6 is most likely a one off no matter what.
But some other systems require similar size of work. For instance, the whole PvP aspect of the game is in shambles. It not only needs the Imperial City but a rework of the entire reward structure and its impact on population imbalance.
It also needs a lot of work to make Cyrodill more than just fighting around keeps. Not to mention the PvP aspect of the justice system, with its open world opt in combat and the "capture the flag" it was supposed to be between enforcers and criminals. That part is a "if/when" now apparently.
And you'd have big additions like the spellcrafting system, with all the dungeon updates it needs and the balancing/testing of dozens of new abilities.
That's now "something we'd like to see in the game", at the same priority rank than housing.
It's highly doubtful that anything that would improve the core gameplay experience will ever be touched in a meaningful way or at any reasonable pace.
They've said it themselves, they'll now focus on content.
And it makes sense for them. DLC is what they are going to be selling. And ways to have convenience to consume that content more efficiently is also what they are selling.
You can't market any aspect of an underlying system, it has no business valu unless your goal is to keep players interested on the long term.Edited by frosth.darkomenb16_ESO on January 30, 2015 11:34AM0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »@Gidorick and @JamilaRaj
As I pointed at in the op, they will not be able to keep the money flowing.
Reversal is a matter of survival.
And nothing technicaly prevents them to reverse course. No copies of tamriel unlimited have been sold yet. That gets released in March.
What they need to do is convince the proper people that they are wrong. I'm just attempting to give them ammunition for that.
I am not enraged by that they have gone P2W, because that was possibility and even likely (though not inevitable; there is so many P2W games, sucking as a result of business model that it makes room for profitable non P2W game that would have genuine competitive advantage precisely because it would be fair and scam-less), I am not enraged by how they announced it, as some cool thing that will make us happy, because that is also likely way to put it.
But, just as I can not imagine to keep playing, because I would either reward ZOS with money for enacting P2W or make game more intriguing for people that would reward them (as they need to have non paying people for their bonuses to provide advantage and be worth their cost), I can not say right away that I would keep playing if they backed off. They have developed cash shop and DLC behind our backs, very likely using money from sales and subs. I am not particularly enraged by this neither, but it's not business practice I am okay with and by continuing to pay I would be saying it is okay to stab and then reverse. I would be inviting them to pull it off repeatedly on X month basis. So, tempting, but...not really sure.1 -
@JamilaRaj
I see your point.
They hurt the product we were paying for in order to develop a product we would not want to pay for. It's a hard pill to swallow and something we should not support.
But if they go back, I can see it as a gesture of good will on their part.
You know, once you get a kitten, it will try to *** wherever it wants, just catch him once, throw him into the litter box and show your discontent, and it will remain clean for the rest of its life.
I'm willing to give ZOS the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure that if a cat can do it, so can they.
As a side note:
@ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Can you say "meow" and at least aknowledge that these kind of threads are being read by someone at Zos, and perhaps are relayed uphill?
No need to show agreement or anything, just showthat you understand that however inaccurate forum polls are, a decent part of your community is strongly opposed to the change. This would be going a long way to ease the current unrest.0
