[Video] VR Dungeon trash is ridiculously OP & block stamina drain NOT OK for PVE

Ethona

Perhaps you all should put heavy armour on and give it a shot?

DeathDealer19

Healing and magicka DPS cannot simply put heavy armor on. don't be ridiculous.

pppontus

Ethona wrote: »

Perhaps you all should put heavy armour on and give it a shot?

Does not make a difference. From 1 second to possibly 2.

Feidam

It's possible that it is completely out of whack with the massive system change they just implemented. However, we need to give them solid feedback, with actual numbers, to show what is going on. Hence why I was asking the earlier question. There is too much omg you changed this....yuck change it back going on without any real numbers.

Right now the damage to health ratios seem to be off across the board imo. The other problem is trying to figure out how impactful are our choices within the champion system. Will the champion system fix some of these issues we are seeing?

As far as blocking is concerned I've seen multiple tanks try to permablock everything and not move or use shields so it is difficult to see the whole picture imo. I don't tank I heal or dps so all tanking observations come from watching others within the groups I've been in.

pppontus

Feidam wrote: »

It's possible that it is completely out of whack with the massive system change they just implemented. However, we need to give them solid feedback, with actual numbers, to show what is going on. Hence why I was asking the earlier question. There is too much omg you changed this....yuck change it back going on without any real numbers.

Right now the damage to health ratios seem to be off across the board imo. The other problem is trying to figure out how impactful are our choices within the champion system. Will the champion system fix some of these issues we are seeing?

As far as blocking is concerned I've seen multiple tanks try to permablock everything and not move or use shields so it is difficult to see the whole picture imo. I don't tank I heal or dps so all tanking observations come from watching others within the groups I've been in.

Oh well, if ZOS wants numbers and detailed information they can start by providing us all the combat information in the addon api, give us a detailed wiki on game mechanics and add in some training dummies. Unless they do that, it's all guesswork or hours and hours of testing. I won't do that when I'm provided a *** template to do my testing, then they'll just get a video and I'm sure they can figure it out themselves from there. After all, that's what they ask us to do, isn't it?

Merrak

Ethona wrote: »

Perhaps you all should put heavy armour on and give it a shot?

So, DPS and Heals should be in Heavy Armor just to complete a Vet Dungeon? A tank who isn't in Heavy now is just doing it wrong.

Joy_Division

When the ultimate changes were announced, I specifically pointed to this fight in Spindleclutch as the one people were going to post videos about how it is now way too hard. Did not take a Nostradamus to figure this out, yet people insisted let's "wait and see."

That being said:

1) Your party is using terribad characters.
2) This is probably the most difficult fight of the original six veteran dungeons.
3) I've seen good players on their real toons wiped on this fight.

I ran City of Ash on the PTS and I did not encounter the same issues that made dungeons overly difficult that are being addressed in the original post. I was a DPS and my 1.6 DPS sucks, yet we cleared the dungeon with only 1 wipe. (although we tried hard mode...only got the boss down to 30% when last platfrom exploded. Rock in middle of lava is OP! This is how I know my 1.6 DPs sucks).

So I actually don't think the overall PVE balance is off...when you use your real toons and actually learn what skills in 1.6 are good and which ones are still crap, the experienced and good players will do just fine.

But:

This fight in Spindleclutch will *wreck* players who are NOT familiar with ESO since they no longer can quickly drop those critical "trial" ultimates like Nova and veil of blades to mitigate the massive amount of damage those 4 waves of adds inflict.

pppontus

Joy_Division wrote: »

When the ultimate changes were announced, I specifically pointed to this fight in Spindleclutch as the one people were going to post videos about how it is now way too hard. Did not take a Nostradamus to figure this out, yet people insisted let's "wait and see."

That being said:

1) Your party is using terribad characters.
2) This is probably the most difficult fight of the original six veteran dungeons.
3) I've seen good players on their real toons wiped on this fight.

I ran City of Ash on the PTS and I did not encounter the same issues that made dungeons overly difficult that are being addressed in the original post. I was a DPS and my 1.6 DPS sucks, yet we cleared the dungeon with only 1 wipe. (although we tried hard mode...only got the boss down to 30% when last platfrom exploded. Rock in middle of lava is OP! This is how I know my 1.6 DPs sucks).

So I actually don't think the overall PVE balance is off...when you use your real toons and actually learn what skills in 1.6 are good and which ones are still crap, the experienced and good players will do just fine.

But:

This fight in Spindleclutch will *wreck* players who are NOT familiar with ESO since they no longer can quickly drop those critical "trial" ultimates like Nova and veil of blades to mitigate the massive amount of damage those 4 waves of adds inflict.

Point taken. I don't think the balance is that far off "in general", apart from the whole Stam drain while blocking thing.. that one really hurts, not sure if it's something we can get used to. Possibly. Also balance seems whacky in that DSA and Trials seems better balanced?

DeathDealer19

Just did an AA run. 1,143 XP for the entire run... which is crap considering you need 400k XP for 1 CP.

the issue is on the mage fight, the mage reflection that spawns, spawns a pool of growing magic that fills half of the platform. I don't remember this at all from pre 1.6 and seen NO mention of it in the patch notes. It seems like this might me a hard mode mechanic that was mistakenly carried over?
And our tank had 15k stamina. All points into health and all enchants into stamina. While tanking the axes on the mage fight like normal, he was out of stamina with only two axes on him. This is un playable with one tank. The stamina cost for blocking and abilities is WAY TOO HIGH

Joy_Division

15K stamina does not sound high...I had 21K+ magicka before eating any food...

Edit: not saying the blocking costs are not out of whack...just trying to reconcile your tank's experience with mine who ran CoA and basically felt invincible....

DeathDealer19

yeah that's magicka. he has all yellow stamina enchants and still at 15k stamina as a tank in full heavy armor. something is wrong with stamina. the cost of blocking is HUGE. the cost of taunt is HUGE. theres not enough stamina to sustain

DeathDealer19

tank gear is different than magicka gear. tank items generally have health set bonuses not stamina. so a tank is left to glyph all stamina and still comes way too short

MisterBigglesworth

Can you guys post a follow-up video where you all start the pull at max range using Petrify, Rune Prison, and/or Agony? I'd be curios if you could survive by locking down 3 of them and kiting the rest.

Ruben

Wouldn't Magma Shell help with those spiders?

Satiar

I'm running 26000 Stam with 27000 health, his Stam sounds low

DeathDealer19

those spiders are ridiculous. you cant say oh you have to have magma shell to kill them or survive.

DeLindsay

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Honestly, It looks like you guys might have some hp issues. Looking at the video, I'm seeing you at 19k health and A lot more Magika than Health. The Highest HP I saw in the group was 23-24k I believe.
I'm a healer, and doing Exactly the same thing I was doing on the live server where I sit around 2800 Health with food buff, without pvp buffs, I was at about 25k health and about 22k Magika (I sit slightly above soft cap around 2450 on live)... I put all attribute points into health, and enchated my gear with all magika.
Every tank I've healed on live has had at least 400-500 more hp than me, so that's about 15% more health than me minimum. Using that number, I figure a tank should at least be sitting around 28750.XD)

This isn't going to happen unless said Tank puts NOTHING into resources and spams Health everywhere. I have 26K Health in Tank gear (21K in Healing/DPS on PTS) compared to ~3300 for Tank (~2750 for DPS/Healing) on Live. The resource drain on PTS is absolutely devastating in PvE so Tanks will have no choice but point into resources thus reducing their overall Health. If you compare with Live, Tanks should have roughly 25-27K on PTS and DPS/Healers 19-21K, which is exactly in line with how it sits on Live. The problem is that's just not enough and no matter how high you stack your resources they just go away on PTS if anything bad happens. That's good for the perma-blocking "unkillables" in PvP but horrible for PvE.

The other side of it is that particular trash pull before Praxin is not the best guage as it's probably the single hardest trash pull in any Vet Dungeon for the Healer to keep DPS alive. On Live DPS drops just as fast if they get too many on them (pull too high DPS without giving that Tank 1-2 seconds head start). The best way I've found to do that fight is be a Vampire and use Devouring Swarm. Using that along with the newly changed Ring of Preservation (which they did) and then the newly change Bone Surge (which they didn't, it adds +8% Healing done now) would help. BoL is never going to superseded Healing Springs when more than 3 Players are taking high dmg, which they very quickly found out. It's the same on The Mage in AA, spamming BoL simply doesn't cut it.

EDIT: Watched it again and it's hard to tell but I don't see anyone using Evil Hunter. If there was a time to use that ability it's that specific fight as it's the difference between having no Stamina and never running out.

Arki

DDuke wrote: »

Perhaps they want us to use abilities like Agony/Rune Prison etc to CC mobs in bigger packs & reduce the stamina drain that way?

Personally (being a big fan of vanilla WoW), I think that'd be awesome

All depends on whether mobs are immune to them (and whether they can break those longer CCs).

I doubt they will have the balls to require that from the players, but I agree 100%! Just love it when you actually have to plan out how to deal with big packs, controlled cc, careful positioning when AoE, focus fire etc. For veteran dungeons and trials/endgame the coordination required for this shouldn't be too much to ask imo.

When WoW devolved into AoE-spam it was quickly dead to me.

cote-bmsb16_ESO

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

Just did an AA run. 1,143 XP for the entire run... which is crap considering you need 400k XP for 1 CP.

the issue is on the mage fight, the mage reflection that spawns, spawns a pool of growing magic that fills half of the platform. I don't remember this at all from pre 1.6 and seen NO mention of it in the patch notes. It seems like this might me a hard mode mechanic that was mistakenly carried over?
And our tank had 15k stamina. All points into health and all enchants into stamina. While tanking the axes on the mage fight like normal, he was out of stamina with only two axes on him. This is un playable with one tank. The stamina cost for blocking and abilities is WAY TOO HIGH

If you don't detonate the daedric mines on the ground, they eventually turn into huge pools of death. Maybe someone forgot to step on them.

BEZDNA

pppontus wrote: »

PS 2: Inferno and Magelight still stacks.

No they don't - it's a UI bug - it says that you got 20%, but you still give you only 10% spell crit bonus

pppontus

DeLindsay wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Honestly, It looks like you guys might have some hp issues. Looking at the video, I'm seeing you at 19k health and A lot more Magika than Health. The Highest HP I saw in the group was 23-24k I believe.
I'm a healer, and doing Exactly the same thing I was doing on the live server where I sit around 2800 Health with food buff, without pvp buffs, I was at about 25k health and about 22k Magika (I sit slightly above soft cap around 2450 on live)... I put all attribute points into health, and enchated my gear with all magika.
Every tank I've healed on live has had at least 400-500 more hp than me, so that's about 15% more health than me minimum. Using that number, I figure a tank should at least be sitting around 28750.XD)

This isn't going to happen unless said Tank puts NOTHING into resources and spams Health everywhere. I have 26K Health in Tank gear (21K in Healing/DPS on PTS) compared to ~3300 for Tank (~2750 for DPS/Healing) on Live. The resource drain on PTS is absolutely devastating in PvE so Tanks will have no choice but point into resources thus reducing their overall Health. If you compare with Live, Tanks should have roughly 25-27K on PTS and DPS/Healers 19-21K, which is exactly in line with how it sits on Live. The problem is that's just not enough and no matter how high you stack your resources they just go away on PTS if anything bad happens. That's good for the perma-blocking "unkillables" in PvP but horrible for PvE.

The other side of it is that particular trash pull before Praxin is not the best guage as it's probably the single hardest trash pull in any Vet Dungeon for the Healer to keep DPS alive. On Live DPS drops just as fast if they get too many on them (pull too high DPS without giving that Tank 1-2 seconds head start). The best way I've found to do that fight is be a Vampire and use Devouring Swarm. Using that along with the newly changed Ring of Preservation (which they did) and then the newly change Bone Surge (which they didn't, it adds +8% Healing done now) would help. BoL is never going to superseded Healing Springs when more than 3 Players are taking high dmg, which they very quickly found out. It's the same on The Mage in AA, spamming BoL simply doesn't cut it.

EDIT: Watched it again and it's hard to tell but I don't see anyone using Evil Hunter. If there was a time to use that ability it's that specific fight as it's the difference between having no Stamina and never running out.

No skills leveled in template, no evil hunter. We did use Bone Shield, but again no morph

Will have to see how this feels when we have actual characters, but still don't think we should run out of stamina in 1 second or less. I've done this on live so many times, it's a piece of cake even without any ultimates, no circles or anything. It's not actually that bad, even though that fight is clearly harder than most dungeon bosses

pppontus

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Perhaps they want us to use abilities like Agony/Rune Prison etc to CC mobs in bigger packs & reduce the stamina drain that way?

Personally (being a big fan of vanilla WoW), I think that'd be awesome

All depends on whether mobs are immune to them (and whether they can break those longer CCs).

I doubt they will have the balls to require that from the players, but I agree 100%! Just love it when you actually have to plan out how to deal with big packs, controlled cc, careful positioning when AoE, focus fire etc. For veteran dungeons and trials/endgame the coordination required for this shouldn't be too much to ask imo.

When WoW devolved into AoE-spam it was quickly dead to me.

If we had skills to support it and there were less trash pulls overall, I'd say sure. The problem is the long CC we have breaks on the tiniest bit of damage, and if we did all that during every trash pull it'd take 2 hours to get through a VR dungeon.

Xsorus

Suggestion for ya if you're gearing Heavy Armor, its mostly Health Bonuses on the set bonuses... You won't get a whole lot of stamina if you put all your points into health then try and gear stamina with just enchants.

Drop all 62 points into Stamina as a Tank, then gear for Health Via gear..You'll pretty much have over 20k Stamina just from that..which is a solid number for a tank..and your health will be fine as well.

IxSTALKERxI

I solo'd AA trash up to first boss on my NB yesterday blockcasting without using a single ultimate and didn't run out of stamina. Just depends on your build.

pppontus

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I solo'd AA trash up to first boss on my NB yesterday blockcasting without using a single ultimate and didn't run out of stamina. Just depends on your build.

Congrats. You took the class which has siphoning attacks that no other class has as to prove that you can by force regain those resources? And all other classes should be SOL?

And ZOS, really nothing to add to this discussion?

IxSTALKERxI

If you can't block use shields. I think they want to encourage people to use shields now instead of blocking.

olsborg

First step in the right direction imo is revert the health to magicka/stamina ratio. So that we get hp levels back to whats on live atm. The ttk will be low enough with sofcaps being removed.

pppontus

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

If you can't block use shields. I think they want to encourage people to use shields now instead of blocking.

Did use bone shield for an extra 60% hp but that doesn't help much when taking 15K dmg a sec. I guess maybe you can stand there and do nothing but cast bone shield repeatedly. Doesn't sound any more fun than block casting though.

It's not about the fact it can't be done, obviously it can be done, but the fact that if we came in to the game like this.. it wouldn't be a fun game. VR dungeon trash is built around block casting, if they just remove block casting without tuning down the damage this is what happens.

It's not all about this pull, I just recorded the most ridiculous video that really shows what's going on (to a much lesser extent, but still) in most of the trash pulls in every dungeon.

TL;DR: Don't force people to block to survive if you're going to make them unable to block.

gendarkb16_ESO

well 11k stamina is a joke ,,, if you want to be a tank(or tankblocking) you build hp/stamina not magica. In the video you have the stats of a magica dps 17k health 23k magica 11k stamina, no wonder why you can't tank.

pppontus

gendarkb16_ESO wrote: »

well 11k stamina is a joke ,,, if you want to be a tank(or tankblocking) you build hp/stamina not magica. In the video you have the stats of a magica dps 17k health 23k magica 11k stamina, no wonder why you can't tank.

I just don't get people.

I'm not the tank, I'm the healer and if that's not obvious to you then I'm sorry.. but I really can't help you with that.