I want my cinder storm defense (miss chance) back.

Teargrants

Darlgon wrote: »

a distance based ground-targetable mess that takes three clicks, (choose skill, locate and then activate.)

Welcome to Lightning Splash and the Wonderful World of Sorc AOEs.

likewow777

Having a DK alt and enjoying playing the character a lot, I would still say that the class is OP (1.5, 1.6, 1.6.2, pick your version). We see far too much nerfing, though, so that really isn't the solution. Buffing other classes is a great option, but it shouldn't necessarily be accompanied by a DK nerf, which is what's happened here. We all lost miss chance, but Temps and NBs got a new skill. I don't play a NB, so I can't speak for that skill, but I love the new Templar execute that replaced Blinding Flashes. DKs got something that, to me at least, seems rather like an after thought. Someone was sitting in their chair, 6 PM on Friday, desperate to go home, and figured Ash Cloud with a snare was best. I'd say, give the DKs a brand new skill as well. I don't know what the skill would be, though. Perhaps more creative minds than my own can post their thoughts.

Tankqull

Teargrants wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

a distance based ground-targetable mess that takes three clicks, (choose skill, locate and then activate.)

Welcome to Lightning Splash and the Wonderful World of Sorc AOEs.

at least it got a 70%!!! snare and dmg comparable to lightning splash without the restriction to have their opponents stay inside of the snare area even when leaving the dot is still ticking:P just so poor dks do not have to suffer to much...

xaade

Aimelin wrote: »

didn't know that hovering over a location was considered clicking ....

you're still not getting the miss chance back, its too op in pvp, deal with it, as other classes had or are having to deal with stupid nerfs / useless buffs

Not only that, you don't have to click, you can just press the action skill a second time.

Once I learned that, I got used predicting the circle, locating first, and then double tapping.

Vordae

With a few tweaks this skill could be useful.
1. The aoe size should be the size of caltrops
2. On cast it should apply a Flame DoT so if they leave the area they continue to take damage.
3. 28 meter range

The morphs can function the same as they do know.

These changes would make the damage more consistent and it could be used for area control.

Armitas

Aimelin wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Ash Cloud
  • Ash Cloud is a now a ground-targeted area of effect ability. It no longer affects an enemy’s miss chance, but instead snares your enemy by 70%.
  • Increased the damage radius of Ash Cloud and its morphs to 5 meters from 4 meters.
  • Cinder Storm (morph): This ability now snares enemies for 2.5 seconds, after they leave the area of effect. The damage dealt by Cinder Storm now increases with each rank of the ability.
  • Eruption Now (morph): This ability now deals damage instantly. This damage amount increases with each rank.

Yeah. I bugged that one as soon as I saw it.

Xeniph wrote: »

Wait, you are complaining about having a RANGED snare+dot.
Speaking for my NB, I'll take it then.

Here's the deal. ZoS swapped an ability that dropped at a tank-type's feet and made them more survivable while you forgot about it, to a distance based ground-targetable mess that takes three clicks, (choose skill, locate and then activate.), and does a snare that any tank would find useless, as they were using it on in their face mobs.

didn't know that hovering over a location was considered clicking ....

you're still not getting the miss chance back, its too op in pvp, deal with it, as other classes had or are having to deal with stupid nerfs / useless buffs

OP? Since when? Take two steps back or a roll and get out of that miss chance. When I fight a DK using it I just stand on the edge of it and hit the DK inside it with the same short range skills. 0 miss chance 0 damage not OP.

We will never get that miss chance back, but this is the PTS, for feedback, and that is what we are giving.

Aquanova

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Like I said earlier Miss chance was flat out removed from game. They should have changed it to dodge chance.

Ash cloud: old snare value, no Damage, 20% Dodge chance, PBAOE

Cinder Storm: Old Snare, Light Damage, 20% Dodge Chance, PBAOE

Eruption: New Snare, Heavy Damage, GTAOE

I'm ok with this, but make sure that eruption costs and scales off magika. I love this new version of this skill ( from a mage build ) DK point of view.

Maulkin

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Like I said earlier Miss chance was flat out removed from game. They should have changed it to dodge chance.

Ash cloud: old snare value, no Damage, 20% Dodge chance, PBAOE

Cinder Storm: Old Snare, Light Damage, 20% Dodge Chance, PBAOE

Eruption: New Snare, Heavy Damage, GTAOE

Dodge chance to whom? Only the caster (like Standard) or everyone standing inside it? the latter would be OP, the former not.

Here's my 2p.

One morph can be closer to a magicka based Caltrops, the other can be a tanky ability.

Cinder: 5m Radius, 70% Snare, 20% dodge chance on caster, PBAOE
Eruption: 12m Radius, 25m Range, Light Damage, 35% Snare.

The damage and the range on Eruption are there to reveal stealthed enemies and to slow down groups.

Cinder on the other hand offers limited area tankability and high snare, but no damage.

The current morphs have rendered a tier 5 ability useless imo.

Shadesofkin

The number of "get used to it" or "deal with it" posts I've seen is sad, stop it, you're better than that.

The snare is an insult to the class's abilities. We already have a snare that constantly reads "immune" against a large number of enemies. A debuff or buff to the ability would at least return it to possible rotation, but as a PvE player myself, I can say I removed it from my bar after just a few minutes of combat.

For PvP players it's even more useless. A simple inclusion of a short damage debuff or a healing debuff wouldn't make it overpowered. It would make it worthy of a Tier 5 ability.

yodased

I don't find it useless and I tank everything like a boss.

Will definitely be on my tank bar for dungeons without doubt, 70% snare on a pack of enemies that like to run away? yes please.

Yusuf

yodased wrote: »

I don't find it useless and I tank everything like a boss.

Will definitely be on my tank bar for dungeons without doubt, 70% snare on a pack of enemies that like to run away? yes please.

I pull every trashpull with caltrops anyway, i don't see why i should still use cinderstorm then.

kaorunandrak

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Like I said earlier Miss chance was flat out removed from game. They should have changed it to dodge chance.

Ash cloud: old snare value, no Damage, 20% Dodge chance, PBAOE

Cinder Storm: Old Snare, Light Damage, 20% Dodge Chance, PBAOE

Eruption: New Snare, Heavy Damage, GTAOE

Dodge chance to whom? Only the caster (like Standard) or everyone standing inside it? the latter would be OP, the former not.

Here's my 2p.

One morph can be closer to a magicka based Caltrops, the other can be a tanky ability.

Cinder: 5m Radius, 70% Snare, 20% dodge chance on caster, PBAOE
Eruption: 12m Radius, 25m Range, Light Damage, 35% Snare.

The damage and the range on Eruption are there to reveal stealthed enemies and to slow down groups.

Cinder on the other hand offers limited area tankability and high snare, but no damage.

The current morphs have rendered a tier 5 ability useless imo.

The dodge should only be for the caster sorry I didn't clarify that, and the only reason I thought it should still have a light damage component was to help maintain aggro on trash. I mean I used it in PvP or when I needed to tank for the group and that was it. The damage component and AOE snare was always out shinned by other powers in my eyes talons, caltrops, or some one else on my team using better CC.

So once more I think it should look like this

Ash cloud: 5m Radius, 70% snare, 20% dodge chance on caster 10sec, PBAOE

Cinder Storm: 5m Radius, 70% snare, 20% dodge chance on caster 10 sec, PBAoe (either light damage component or increased duration of dodge)

Eruption 8m Radius, 25m range, 70% snare, medium damage, GTAOE
( You loose the dodge chance for damage and greater control of the ability I would probably also increase the cost to keep things balanced because this ability is unblock-able now due to the ground aoe change with the latest patch)

yodased

Yusuf wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

I don't find it useless and I tank everything like a boss.

Will definitely be on my tank bar for dungeons without doubt, 70% snare on a pack of enemies that like to run away? yes please.

I pull every trashpull with caltrops anyway, i don't see why i should still use cinderstorm then.

I use caltrops too, not every tank in PvE has put the ridiculous time needed in Cyrodil to get it though you know...

uso245

Overall out of the skill class trees Dks have the most beneficial move sets allowing them to play any role effectively. Other classes can play any role too but we tend to have to spec into extra talents that we wouldn't normally use for every other occasion. DKs are still the best tank, support, dps character on the market right now when it comes to PvP. All other classes can't 1vZergs so I think it's good that DKs get a slight nerf to balance PvP more effectively.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

kaorunandrak

uso245ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gawd forbid a DK had to learn how to play their class. I keep seeing the QQ about being nerf'd etc but overall out of their skill class trees they have the most beneficial move sets allowing them to play any role effectively. Other classes can play any role too but we tend to have to spec into extra talents that we wouldn't normally use for every other occasion. DKs are still the best tank, support, dps character on the market right now when it comes to PvP. All other classes can't 1vZergs so I think it's good that DKs get a slight nerf to balance PvP more effectively.

Once more it's feed back it's what we are supposed to be doing they made changes and we don't agree with them or don't like them its no different then what every other class thread is doing right now. Some might be whining but I have said over several post's on various threads I don't think this is a game breaking nerf or one that will hurt us much.

That said you need to relax with the hyperbole 1vZerg is a capability EVERY class can do, go into thornblade or asura star and fight some of the ex-emperors there hell I have gotten my ass handed to me along with an entire 6 group raid by a non emp sorc and a magicka build night blade. I've watched a primary heal spec templar blazing shield and biting jabs a group of ten into the ground. Any class is capable of generating some awe inspiring pvp and pve gameplay even if you can't figure out how.

All we are doing is discussing a power and I don't think what we are discussing is over powered, and even then the odds of them changing it with only one more confirmed patch next week to pts? Yeah I am willing to bet the current pts version of dragon knight abilities goes through and oh well we will adapt and the whiners will move on.

Domander

Miss chance was not removed from the game, only from players. Dodge would be acceptable or a complete redesign.

Domander

yodased wrote: »

I don't find it useless and I tank everything like a boss.

Will definitely be on my tank bar for dungeons without doubt, 70% snare on a pack of enemies that like to run away? yes please.

I use talons for that...

uso245

kaorunandrak wrote: »

uso245ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gawd forbid a DK had to learn how to play their class. I keep seeing the QQ about being nerf'd etc but overall out of their skill class trees they have the most beneficial move sets allowing them to play any role effectively. Other classes can play any role too but we tend to have to spec into extra talents that we wouldn't normally use for every other occasion. DKs are still the best tank, support, dps character on the market right now when it comes to PvP. All other classes can't 1vZergs so I think it's good that DKs get a slight nerf to balance PvP more effectively.

Once more it's feed back it's what we are supposed to be doing they made changes and we don't agree with them or don't like them its no different then what every other class thread is doing right now. Some might be whining but I have said over several post's on various threads I don't think this is a game breaking nerf or one that will hurt us much.

That said you need to relax with the hyperbole 1vZerg is a capability EVERY class can do, go into thornblade or asura star and fight some of the ex-emperors there hell I have gotten my ass handed to me along with an entire 6 group raid by a non emp sorc and a magicka build night blade. I've watched a primary heal spec templar blazing shield and biting jabs a group of ten into the ground. Any class is capable of generating some awe inspiring pvp and pve gameplay even if you can't figure out how.

All we are doing is discussing a power and I don't think what we are discussing is over powered, and even then the odds of them changing it with only one more confirmed patch next week to pts? Yeah I am willing to bet the current pts version of dragon knight abilities goes through and oh well we will adapt and the whiners will move on.

I've only come across one non-dk that could do more then 1v6+ normally everyone drops like flies unless the 1v# was a sniper picking people off.

Domander

uso245ub17_ESO wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

uso245ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gawd forbid a DK had to learn how to play their class. I keep seeing the QQ about being nerf'd etc but overall out of their skill class trees they have the most beneficial move sets allowing them to play any role effectively. Other classes can play any role too but we tend to have to spec into extra talents that we wouldn't normally use for every other occasion. DKs are still the best tank, support, dps character on the market right now when it comes to PvP. All other classes can't 1vZergs so I think it's good that DKs get a slight nerf to balance PvP more effectively.

Once more it's feed back it's what we are supposed to be doing they made changes and we don't agree with them or don't like them its no different then what every other class thread is doing right now. Some might be whining but I have said over several post's on various threads I don't think this is a game breaking nerf or one that will hurt us much.

That said you need to relax with the hyperbole 1vZerg is a capability EVERY class can do, go into thornblade or asura star and fight some of the ex-emperors there hell I have gotten my ass handed to me along with an entire 6 group raid by a non emp sorc and a magicka build night blade. I've watched a primary heal spec templar blazing shield and biting jabs a group of ten into the ground. Any class is capable of generating some awe inspiring pvp and pve gameplay even if you can't figure out how.

All we are doing is discussing a power and I don't think what we are discussing is over powered, and even then the odds of them changing it with only one more confirmed patch next week to pts? Yeah I am willing to bet the current pts version of dragon knight abilities goes through and oh well we will adapt and the whiners will move on.

I've only come across one non-dk that could do more then 1v6+ normally everyone drops like flies unless the 1v# was a sniper picking people off.

Right, because so many DKs go around 1v6, and that has such a relevance on this discussion...

Please stop cluttering the thread with this nonsense. Thanks.

Ommamar

I guess what I don't understand is the difference between miss chance and dodge. Logically if in a fight you dodges something you take no damage if you throw something in someones eyes causing their "miss chance" to rise astronomically it is the same result. That scenario is what I envisioned the Ash Storm line to be no idea why throwing ash around someone would cause their movement to be effected. It might have uses but I agree the version in update 5 was more useful.

xylena

how about allies gain "major evasion" buff while inside the AoE... right now it's a smaller weaker magicka version of caltrops... eruption in 1.5 was amazing for AvA on my stamina build and will be missed

likewow777

Ommamar wrote: »

I guess what I don't understand is the difference between miss chance and dodge. Logically if in a fight you dodges something you take no damage if you throw something in someones eyes causing their "miss chance" to rise astronomically it is the same result. That scenario is what I envisioned the Ash Storm line to be no idea why throwing ash around someone would cause their movement to be effected. It might have uses but I agree the version in update 5 was more useful.

That's a good point. I think I'd have preferred if "miss chance" was more like "damage less". If someone has ash in their eyes, I think I'd expect them to do less damage cause they can't aim as well. Even if logically that doesn't make sense, at least the skill would still be more useful than a snare.

Armitas

uso245ub17_ESO wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

uso245ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gawd forbid a DK had to learn how to play their class. I keep seeing the QQ about being nerf'd etc but overall out of their skill class trees they have the most beneficial move sets allowing them to play any role effectively. Other classes can play any role too but we tend to have to spec into extra talents that we wouldn't normally use for every other occasion. DKs are still the best tank, support, dps character on the market right now when it comes to PvP. All other classes can't 1vZergs so I think it's good that DKs get a slight nerf to balance PvP more effectively.

Once more it's feed back it's what we are supposed to be doing they made changes and we don't agree with them or don't like them its no different then what every other class thread is doing right now. Some might be whining but I have said over several post's on various threads I don't think this is a game breaking nerf or one that will hurt us much.

That said you need to relax with the hyperbole 1vZerg is a capability EVERY class can do, go into thornblade or asura star and fight some of the ex-emperors there hell I have gotten my ass handed to me along with an entire 6 group raid by a non emp sorc and a magicka build night blade. I've watched a primary heal spec templar blazing shield and biting jabs a group of ten into the ground. Any class is capable of generating some awe inspiring pvp and pve gameplay even if you can't figure out how.

All we are doing is discussing a power and I don't think what we are discussing is over powered, and even then the odds of them changing it with only one more confirmed patch next week to pts? Yeah I am willing to bet the current pts version of dragon knight abilities goes through and oh well we will adapt and the whiners will move on.

I've only come across one non-dk that could do more then 1v6+ normally everyone drops like flies unless the 1v# was a sniper picking people off.

We had a guy comping that they couldn't kill a NB with their 17 man raid, and before that a guy complaining that a sorc was wiping their equally sized raid (doing it sorc style, but to the same end) not that long ago on the Alliance forums. You can't go by just what you have "come across".

1v6 or not it does not follow that a DK's T5 skill should remain useless. Unless you have a good reason why a T5 skill should remain useless please start another thread to issue your complaints about DKs so that this one doesn't get cluttered up.

Dreddnawt

Disregard the trolls trying to turn this thread into a cry fest for some obscure pvp vendetta being taken out on the forums. Im sorry you got owned in cyrodiil by a DK who hurt your feeling once. Now go cry in the corner quietly and leave the big kids to their discussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The point here is no other class was truly nerfed in this update EXCEPT dragonknights, much like the last few updates. And of all the Tier 4-5 skill changes, Ash Cloud is the only one to be rendered useless.

For the challenged who just dont get it:
We understand Miss Chance has been removed from the game. Technically EVERY buff and debuff has been removed! The problem is that in every single other instance of removing a buff it has been replaced with the similar new buff from U1.6, with the sole exception being Ash Cloud.

For this TIER 5 DK skill, the buff was not modified nor replaced and the skill was not completely overhauled to offer a better or even on-par replacement. In this one single case the devs chose to instead take away from an ability without putting anything back into it so that it remains a viable skill option. Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm is now the most expensive Snare in the game and is hands down the most terrible Tier 5 ability of any skill tree.

Jaerlach

Dreddnawt wrote: »

Disregard the trolls trying to turn this thread into a cry fest for some obscure pvp vendetta being taken out on the forums. Im sorry you got owned in cyrodiil by a DK who hurt your feeling once. Now go cry in the corner quietly and leave the big kids to their discussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The point here is no other class was truly nerfed in this update EXCEPT dragonknights, much like the last few updates. And of all the Tier 4-5 skill changes, Ash Cloud is the only one to be rendered useless.

For the challenged who just dont get it:
We understand Miss Chance has been removed from the game. Technically EVERY buff and debuff has been removed! The problem is that in every single other instance of removing a buff it has been replaced with the similar new buff from U1.6, with the sole exception being Ash Cloud.

For this TIER 5 DK skill, the buff was not modified nor replaced and the skill was not completely overhauled to offer a better or even on-par replacement. In this one single case the devs chose to instead take away from an ability without putting anything back into it so that it remains a viable skill option. Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm is now the most expensive Snare in the game and is hands down the most terrible Tier 5 ability of any skill tree.

Actually, all other skills that had "miss chance", as opposed to dodge, were completely removed from eso and replaced with other skills.

Armitas

I'm downloading the patch so I can't check to be certain on pts but on live Ash Cloud is the single most expensive DK skill. It costs 476 Magicka. If nothing is going to be done to make this a valuable skill could we get that cost reduced? It wouldn't be right to make a snare be the most expensive skill in your class.

Dreddnawt

Just to update this thread after the 1.6 patch:

ZOS didnt revamp the skill completely or add Evasion to it. But they did apparently ramp up the dmg on it even more than what we saw on PTS. As we feared Cinder Storm is trash as the game's most uber-expensive snare. However, Eruption has shown itself to be the smart choice for anyone wanting a ground AoE pop-DoT including those using Wall of Elements.

Compared on even ground, that being maintaining both effects for the same amount of time, Eruption comes out way way ahead of Wall in all facets. First is obviously duration with Eruption at 18 seconds per cast and Wall at 3 seconds, Eruption is already 6x better. Next Eruption wins again 6 times over, that is you would have to cast Wall 6 times to equal the damage of one cast of Eruption. Also looking at DPS (damage per second), they are actually almost identical damage per tick until you add in the initial damage of Eruption which is stronger than the Unstable pop and Blockade doesnt have any pop damage at all. Factoring in the extra damage of Eruption it comes out ahead again with roughly 15% more DPS in a single cast than Wall can do in 6 castings. Lastly, it should be mentioned the cost of 6 Walls is 4.25 times more expensive than the comparable 1 Eruption.

So in the end Ash Cloud becomes a ground targetable pop-DoT with a small snare built in for no reasonable reason. But it is at least usable and presents itself as a much better option than the commonly used Wall of Elements. Additionally the targeting ring has its own usefulness, by leaving the ring on your cursor you can quickly and easily scan rooms and passageways for hidden enemies such as crumpled skeletons, entombed drauger, burrowing spiders, or stealthed rogues. They all light up red when inside the ring.