Beware forum herd mentality

Mathius_Mordred

Coming from the Star Trek Online community, of which I am still a part, I have observed since the B2P announcement a significant change in attitude on these forums. I would like to share with you my observations and warn about the potential ramifications.

There are a lot of people who are unhappy with the announcement and they are flooding the forum with threads along the lines of "Is this the end for ESO?", "Will you carry on playing?", "That's it ZOS I'm gone" etc.

We can only speculate on how this will actually affect the game we love based on what we have seen elsewhere, nobody, even ZOS, know exactly how this will pan out for the game in the long term but clearly they believe it is the right model for the future.

Now the problem is that forum rage is a kind of insidious brain washing, a type of herd mentality, a happy player who perhaps hasn't even considered B2P much may decide to start reading the forums and soon becomes affected by the negative comments. It colours the way he or she feels about the game, makes them wonder if there's much point in continuing something that may be dead in a few months perhaps. It leaves a bad taste and takes the shine off something that prior to reading the forums you had no bad feelings about.

I have seen the STO forums degenerate into mass hysteria almost, many negative posts reinforcing or strengthening the resolve of those thinking to quit, and perhaps tipping those that were sitting on the fence.

The point of this post is to share what I've learnt which is to take it all with a pinch of salt, the game will either be a success with the new model or it won't, rage quitting will only affect those that rage quit, reducing play time will only affect those that reduce play time, feeling anxious or angry about upcoming changes will affect nobodies game experience but your own.

Personally I now avoid any thread that starts in this manner, for me it serves no purpose and is ultimately self destructive, it serves only to worry me and question my resolve. In the end it's just a game, it's not that important in life, there are far more important things to worry about.

Me, I'm just going to wait and see what happens, I will not change anything about my subscription and I wish ZOS and all the players here and in game all the very best for the future.

“Beliefs are conclusions reached by men who are too lazy to think for themselves.”
― Mokokoma Mokhonoana

Fruity_Ninja

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

The point of this post is to share what I've learnt which is to take it all with a pinch of salt, the game will either be a success with the new model or it won't, rage quitting will only affect those that rage quit, reducing play time will only affect those that reduce play time, feeling anxious or angry about upcoming changes will affect nobodies game experience but your own.

“Beliefs are conclusions reached by men who are lazy to think for themselves.”
― Mokokoma Mokhonoana

Well said Mathius.

Unfortunately the internet is full of negativity and rage posts, no matter the outlet. I guess it reflects the natural negativity displayed by the majority of people in this world.

We all get one life. No point wasting it on negative emotions.

LMar

Hi Mathius,

I, for the most part, have started to avoid reading the forums especially threads that exhibit rage or threads that don't have anything much to do with game content.
I have my own opinions about the game and the changes happening and will reserve action when I see what happens.
Saying that I think a lot of people are reaching the point of acceptance and/or there are some people preaching rational thought, which is good.

SteveCampsOut

Yeah, um, I stopped opening anything looking like a rage thread. The forums, however, have always been full of rage. This is just the latest bout of the Never Ending Whine...

ashlee17

Many of the topics you cited are not what I would call "rage".

Perhaps people who post are hoping to have there opinion heard by zos and the game changed for the better as a result?
I would recommend reading from the other forum categories, instead of "general discussion" if you want to avoid people's opinions on current events.

KhajitFurTrader

What herd moooooooontality?

I always thought that people tend to stress negative aspects much more readily because it is easier, requires less effort and thought, and distancing oneself from something strengthens one's individuality, which is considered cool in this time and age.

Kinda like the Dark Side, really. Without the cookies.

SantieClaws

As was first to post a link to the game site article that started all this - before any offical statement from Zenimax - I can hardly be accused of following the herd.

If anything I suppose it is my fault everyone is so angry and upset and Zenimax have done nothing wrong at all by sticking a great big curved sword in all of our backs.

Most of us are not following any herd at all. We are expressing our genuine concerns for the future of the game based on our past experience of the path other games have taken. History tends to repeat itself. Hoping this time is the exception to that rule. Hoping ....

BlueIllyrian

Think Pink and all will be fine.

Star Trek Online is a garbage of a game turned into a grindfest with "best expansion ever" Delta Rising, it wasn't great before and it is at best mediocre now.

So "raging herd" is correct, they also pointed out that increased revenues doesn't mean increased content.

What about blind support rage, precisely what types of "favorite children" on Star Trek Online forums are doing? You know, types like iconian, scully, thecosmic and alike that can get away with murder while baiting, flaming, trolling etc.

Mathius_Mordred

As a gamer that started playing computer games before many of you were even born back in the 1970s it was my intention to simply share an observation that I've had a long time to formulate. Some people will agree, some won't, most I suspect won't care enough to comment, but thank you to those that have. Let's not flame each other though.

There are trolls in all walks of life, I've not seen that many if any obvious trolls in the month or so I've been browsing these forums, I suppose they exist here too, but even the trolls have their reasons for doing what they do and usually it's to gain standing, sometimes it's a schadenfreudian attempt at self importance, I know it's best to ignore them once you recognise them for what they are.

What is most important is how you feel, do you enjoy playing the game enough to continue, does the time and effort expended return enough reward to you personally?

Also voicing an opinion on the forums is a great way to let the Devs know how you feel, threatening to rage quit just sounds petulant.

Anyway I too hope it all works out well for all of us, if it doesn't I've only done 1000 hours in Skyrim and there are lots of mods yet to play with

Razzak

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

As a gamer that started playing computer games before many of you were even born back in the 1970s it was my intention to simply share an observation that I've had a long time to formulate. Some people will agree, some won't, most I suspect won't care enough to comment, but thank you to those that have. Let's not flame each other though.

There are trolls in all walks of life, I've not seen that many if any obvious trolls in the month or so I've been browsing these forums, I suppose they exist here too, but even the trolls have their reasons for doing what they do and usually it's to gain standing, sometimes it's a schadenfreudian attempt at self importance, I know it's best to ignore them once you recognise them for what they are.

What is most important is how you feel, do you enjoy playing the game enough to continue, does the time and effort expended return enough reward to you personally?

Also voicing an opinion on the forums is a great way to let the Devs know how you feel, threatening to rage quit just sounds petulant.

Anyway I too hope it all works out well for all of us, if it doesn't I've only done 1000 hours in Skyrim and there are lots of mods yet to play with

You are correct, especially if we consider it's up to you and only up to you, which threads you read. No one can either force you or compel you to do so.
That said, if you base your opinion on a thread title, you are seriously limiting your self. That is, if you even want to see and hear what general population here thinks.
No matter what thread title says, posts in it are a representative of such title only in a very limited way. Usually, any kind of thread is filled with many kinds of players and attitudes.
Consider your thread. It has already attracted a derogatory post and it doesn't appear to be from a naysayer.

“Beliefs are conclusions reached by men who are too lazy to think for themselves.”
― Mokokoma Mokhonoana
As much as I like aphorisms, this one looks like it's Mokokoma's belief.

Leeric

When expressing your unhappy with decisions becomes "following the herd".

I could also say you are following the herd by being a fanboy, but I wouldn't because that, would be dumb. Everyone is entitled to their opinion it just so happens a lot of people are upset at ZOS for what would appear to be false advertising.

When I read comments like this I always think that the same type people would call out Martin Luther King jr for "following the herd", although thats obviously a more extreme example, its just what comes to mind.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

The point of this post is to share what I've learnt which is to take it all with a pinch of salt, the game will either be a success with the new model or it won't, rage quitting will only affect those that rage quit, reducing play time will only affect those that reduce play time, feeling anxious or angry about upcoming changes will affect nobodies game experience but your own.

Having been playing LOTRO, Rift and SW:TOR as they all went through this change I totally agree .. but your intent I fear is futile, as those forums and you experience with ST show, rationality is in very short supply at times like this and the fact that some of those arguing as you are have clearly been labeled as 'fanbois' due to their unquestioning support of ZOS in the past over issues such as the banning, albeit reversed after many hours, of 100s of innocent players (where the fanbois trumpeted ZOS couldn't make such a mistake) doesn't help.

daemonios

I understand the sentiment of the OP. I myself asked forum mods to close the myriads of "Is ESO going F2P/B2P???????????" threads because they were repetitive and devolved quickly into speculation, negativity and personal attacks.

However, as the saying goes, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". ZOS did state that their business model was subscription-based and they had no intention of changing it. Then they did. I have to say I'm also very cautious about trusting the game not to go down the almost-inevitable pay-to-win cash cow path.

ZOS' capital of trust is running low. Expect more negativity in the forums.

Slurg

Comparing the posts from the last couple days to the ones from last Wednesday/Thursday, it looks like the rage quitters and end of the world predictors have largely moved on out of the forums. Lots of formerly frequent posters are noticeably absent now.

Many of us who are left appear to be either optimists or in the wait and see what actually happens before we judge crowd. Plus there is a faction who just wants more of a reward for sticking it out for so long.

Aett_Thorn

The OP also needs to understand that there is a bit of selection bias going on here in that the people who can use the forums now are much more likely to have liked the current sub model than those who aren't using the forums. As such, you are going to get different results and temperament when a change in the pricing model is announced than you would if it was just a general forum.

For example, if you have a Dunkin Donuts and a Starbucks right next to each other, and you go into the Dunkin Donuts and yell, "Starbucks' coffee is much better! You are all fools for liking Dunkin Donuts' coffee!" Well, you are probably going to get an adverse reaction, some choice expletives, and most people telling you to just go to the Starbucks next door.

However, if you have a Dunkin Donuts out in the middle of nowhere off a highway exit somewhere, and do the same thing, you are much more likely to get some interesting debate, because the people that are there might have just needed some coffee, and it was the only place around to get it. But they might prefer Starbucks' coffee, there just wasn't one around.


Right now, there are plenty of F2P and B2P games out there. As such, for some/many of the people that are here, the P2P model might have been seen as a relief. It was different from how other games out there are trending towards, and people like myself prefer the community the P2P model drives (as long as management is doing their job) over the one that comes with the F2P/B2P model. We had a choice to play this game over the many F2P/B2P games that are out there, and we chose this model and this game.

So to see that change, of course THIS forum is going to blow up. That's not because of a herd mentality. It's because you have a sample of the population that actually LIKED the current subscription model, and now it is going away to a certain extent. Meanwhile, in other forums where this has been announced, where people may have wanted it to be F2P from the start, they might be very happy with the change. They all like Starbucks, and so they're happy when the Dunkin right next store closes down to make room for another Starbucks.

spryler

I can only speak from personal experience. I was an adamant ESO defender before this announcement. I was angry after the announcement and posted a few inappropriate things on the forums, not very many.

Now? They lost me. They had my trust, they had my loyalty. I was on-board to play ESO for years to come.

There are a lot of MMO-type games out there. I played ESO because of the community of mature members and the quality of content. I feel like those are the two thing that are being sacrificed for this new business model.

I'm checking out GW2, never played it before and it's fun for now. Plenty of other games to try after I get sick of that one.

I am still playing a bit, but only because my guild is working on SO and I don't want to abandon my guildmates. If it wasn't for that I probably wouldn't even log on to check my hirelings.

HeroOfNone

There are a lot of irrational hate mongers on the thread that are just happy to see the entire place burn because the game isn't what they want or they are upset with the change. This happened when they realized it wasn't a sandbox mmo or skyrim 2.0.

Realize when someone leaves an angry thread saying that ZOS ruined the game and they are leaving they aren't doing for the game devs to read, they are doing it to get others in the community to join them to feel better about themselves for leaving. Imagine the kid kicked in the face during a soccer game, stomping off and yelling at all his friends to leave too. I've done it in the past as well, and I know it's nothing more than self gratification.

That all said there is nothing wrong with being critical of change or the game in general. You need to keep yourself out of the negativity by considerin both sides, costumer and developer, and how this can work so we can play and how they can make reasonable money to keep the game maintained and keep development going.
- State your problems and issues in a clear and logical manner.
- Avoid the emotional and ethical posts, most times you'll fall into a trap.
- If you have issues keeping yourself from being too negative, like I often do, put suggestions instead.
- People are more likely to respond to a positive idea than a negative one, so spin your comments.

I accepted these next few weeks would be full of rage quiters. I figure it will settle down by next week at least when folks see 1.6 in PTS

Kilandros

Pro Tip: A message calling dissenters a "herd," "brain washed" among other things is not conciliatory but is rather quite inflammatory.

Korah_Eaglecry

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Coming from the Star Trek Online community, of which I am still a part, I have observed since the B2P announcement a significant change in attitude on these forums. I would like to share with you my observations and warn about the potential ramifications.

There are a lot of people who are unhappy with the announcement and they are flooding the forum with threads along the lines of "Is this the end for ESO?", "Will you carry on playing?", "That's it ZOS I'm gone" etc.

We can only speculate on how this will actually affect the game we love based on what we have seen elsewhere, nobody, even ZOS, know exactly how this will pan out for the game in the long term but clearly they believe it is the right model for the future.

Now the problem is that forum rage is a kind of insidious brain washing, a type of herd mentality, a happy player who perhaps hasn't even considered B2P much may decide to start reading the forums and soon becomes affected by the negative comments. It colours the way he or she feels about the game, makes them wonder if there's much point in continuing something that may be dead in a few months perhaps. It leaves a bad taste and takes the shine off something that prior to reading the forums you had no bad feelings about.

I have seen the STO forums degenerate into mass hysteria almost, many negative posts reinforcing or strengthening the resolve of those thinking to quit, and perhaps tipping those that were sitting on the fence.

The point of this post is to share what I've learnt which is to take it all with a pinch of salt, the game will either be a success with the new model or it won't, rage quitting will only affect those that rage quit, reducing play time will only affect those that reduce play time, feeling anxious or angry about upcoming changes will affect nobodies game experience but your own.

Personally I now avoid any thread that starts in this manner, for me it serves no purpose and is ultimately self destructive, it serves only to worry me and question my resolve. In the end it's just a game, it's not that important in life, there are far more important things to worry about.

Me, I'm just going to wait and see what happens, I will not change anything about my subscription and I wish ZOS and all the players here and in game all the very best for the future.

“Beliefs are conclusions reached by men who are too lazy to think for themselves.”
― Mokokoma Mokhonoana

As a player that has played STO off and on for years and even a long time forum poster over there. I can agree with this.

I'll say this though. Cryptic and ZOS are not one and the same. Cryptic in my opinion is out right greedy. Has been from the start. They like to 'develop' MMOs for 2 years and then spit them out in whatever state theyre at.

While the Forums over there can get out of control when they hear something they dont like. A lot of the hate over there Cryptic most definitely deserves. Their Lead Dev has gone on record running his mouth about the playerbase. I do not feel sorry for them or their product. They dug this hole.

ZOS on the other hand has not given us any substantial reason to hate. We dont know the full details or the players involved. People like to claim that developers made promises....As if the developers sat down with a player over tea and personally pledged the game would never go F2P/B2P. Im under the impression a particular few here in the forums are fanning the flames in hopes of driving people into a frenzy. I wont name names but youll see them regularly posting new threads about this topic under the guise of a new discussion. Or keeping the playerbase informed of their rights. Those participating in the textual rioting are those who have never played an MMO before and those who have a staunch hatred for F2P/B2P models.

eliisra

This is in no way different form the fanboi mentality and herd. If you visit a forum and the first 2 pages are filled with:

"Say something positive about the game"

"Don't listen to whiners/haters"

"Why dont you just leave"

"Stop spreading negativity"

And so on. Than I, as a seasons MMO-player, know for sure the game fundamentally screwed up on multiple levels.

Fanboying has the exact same effect as hating. All it does is flame baiting, ***-storming and creating forum-meta drama.

If complaining players annoy you, go make or bump threads about the actual game, instead of pouring gasoline on the fire. Write about in-game content, skills, quest, lore or whatever, because that's what forums are suppose to be about. I'm personally so damn tired of this, like 10 pages of b2p conflicts.

Arandear

Well said.

MornaBaine

I am disappointed and apprehensive but taking the "wait and see" approach. However, the reason I no longer play SWTOR is exactly because of their cash shop practices. And I never even read the forums there, so that had no impact on my decision.

Muizer

@OP, respect that people have different ways of coping with loss.........That's what it is, after all. The game won't be the same once the cash shops open and what we used to play for can be bought for cash instead.

Saturn

I wish more people would read this and come to some kind of realisation.

I believe the game will do well after TU is released. I mean look how far the game has come since the Beta. I doubt the devs will suddenly turn around and go a completely different route with the game. They listen to their community (at least the constructive critisism part of it) and they have already improved greatly.

Half a year from now people will be raging about something else. A year from now it will be something new and so on and so on.

I know a guy who has quit the game, rejoined, quit, rejoined, quit and then finally rejoined again, just because he gives in to his rage or that expressed by others. Whenever he finds something he dislikes he makes a huge deal about it, openly quits the game and then sneaks back in a month after, when the thing he disliked was changed/fixed.

I have personally had quite a few things in this game that made me upset, like when Update 5 broke taunting, making a tank's job pretty darn difficult or when Update 3 (or was it 4?) introduced some horrible Memory Leaking.

Regardless I like the game a lot as well as the small community I am a part of within it. I consider my subscription (which has been ongoing since Launch) as an investment. I love what Zenimax is doing with the game and I forsee it becoming greater and greater with each passing Update.

*Fingers crossed*

Abr4hn

The way I look at it, it comes down to this:

Criticism can be viewed as constructive if it is possible (and feasible) to change/improve the thing being criticized. This is useful, even when there is strong disagreement between the various opinions.

Criticism of things that cannot be changed serves no useful purpose and is simply destructive. The phrase commonly used to describe the act of criticizing something that cannot be changed is "beating a dead horse".

The logical thing to do when others insist on relentlessly beating all sorts of deceased farm animals into a gooey paste is to urge them to:

1) stop doing that, and
2) go find something else to do instead.

It is for their own good, really.

TheShadowScout

BlueIllyrian wrote: »

[...]

[...]

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

There are a lot of people who are unhappy with the announcement and they are flooding the forum with threads along the lines of "Is this the end for ESO?", "Will you carry on playing?", "That's it ZOS I'm gone" etc.

Those kind of comments, I would not consider canaries, but... Well, it has been said. My condolences to anyone who started such a thread, they really ought to find something more constructive to occupy their attention. Or a more private way to vent their frustration.

There are a few others who raise legitimate concerns worthy of some discussion... not just crying "The end is nigh!" or "...it's gonna go PtW", but actually saying how they hope the details will turn out, and what they hope never to see, so that maybe those who make these decisions can gauge how the rest of the playerbase might view these possibilities. And perhaps make adjustments to those details, though the main point about the whole show going BtP truly is decided, thus useless to give verbal whacks.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote and response]

painsworth01

Agree with you, Mathius. The people who play this game are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions regarding game dynamics and changes. Unfortunately, some are "chicken littles." Best to weigh the options and watch the results before jumping to conclusions ... change can be fun.

Razzak

Abr4hn wrote: »

The way I look at it, it comes down to this:

Criticism can be viewed as constructive if it is possible (and feasible) to change/improve the thing being criticized. This is useful, even when there is strong disagreement between the various opinions.

Criticism of things that cannot be changed serves no useful purpose and is simply destructive. The phrase commonly used to describe the act of criticizing something that cannot be changed is "beating a dead horse".

The logical thing to do when others insist on relentlessly beating all sorts of deceased farm animals into a gooey paste is to urge them to:

1) stop doing that, and
2) go find something else to do instead.

It is for their own good, really.

How do you know what can be affected to the point of it being changed. Would 30 CPs be changed if there wasn't a serious forum activity against it?

Abr4hn

Razzak wrote: »

How do you know what can be affected to the point of it being changed. Would 30 CPs be changed if there wasn't a serious forum activity against it?

That is a good question.

In my opinion it comes down to a combination of judgement and experience to know which things can be changed and which cannot based on how much effort is involved.

The 30 CP thing was just a number. Obviously it was both possible and feasible to change that number based on the feedback (constructive criticism). So they changed it from 30 to 70. I think you can see that was a pretty small and easy change to make.

On the other hand, the change to a B2P business model is an example of a huge and difficult change which takes so much time and effort that it is effectively too big to be reversed. Also, there are a number of important reasons that forced them to make the change. All those reasons are all still there, and no amount of complaining will make those underlying reasons go away either. Therefore, complaining about that huge irreversible change cannot do any good - it is beating a dead horse.

That is the difference.

Why does it matter? The theory goes that by complaining about things that will never be changed, the complaining never ends and becomes ever more toxic over time. The toxic forums then help to drive away players that are not very good at thinking for themselves. The jury is still out whether or not that is any great loss, but I think you get the idea. It is better for everyone not to go there in the first place if it can be avoided.

Mathius_Mordred

Thanks everyone, some really interesting and insightful views aired here today, reading what you guys have put gives me a great hope for this community and ESO.

Iluvrien

It is a good point that you make, with regards to not fuelling hysteria and flaming, although I wouldn’t put it down to “herd mentality” as I tend consider people as individuals rather than an amorphous mass of easily-swayed ruminants.

I am loath to assign a malicious intent to the continuous posting in the more emotionally driven thread, although I don’t doubt that is the intent of some. I say this as someone who has actually posted, once, in one of the official threads. I also say this as someone who hasn’t logged in since the announcement almost a week ago.

In my case, because I can only speak for myself, I return to the forums on a regular basis in search of hope. That comes in one of two forms: Hope from the community, Hope from the developers. My previous experience with SW:TOR and LotRO has given me reason to form a certain opinion of MMOs featuring cash shop options and so I have been watching the forums to look for evidence that my pre-existing experience does not apply in this case. Hence the need for hope.

Hope from the community is easily enough explained, threads that make suggestions about how the transition could be well handled, or those giving examples of MMOs with cash shops that haven’t done the things that I fear may happen fulfill that role.

Hope from the developers is less easy. There is a certain desire, at first when the shock is still fresh, to reach out to the developers with a “Say it ain’t so!” post. I suspect that desire hinges on the hope that if enough people question it the moment that it is announced then maybe we might see a reversal. Almost certainly this is a vain expectation but I cannot decry others for it since I even did it myself. After that, as things begin to settle and rationality begins to return, there are posts looking for confirmation or even pledges that the possibly ruinous road is one that they will not take. Of course this is probably vain too, especially if a developer has gone back on a previous statement. Considering that people may not now trust what the developers say, there may well be no declaration that they can give that will be believed even though such a declaration is what is being begged/demanded of them. Although I will say that this "We have no plans to..." rather than "No, we won't" probably isn't helping.

All of the above is in response to the initial flash of forum-based shock and rage that accompanies such an announcement. Let’s just be clear though that this is always likely to happen, if a provider makes a significant change to the nature of a service or product then there will be a backlash. No change that I have ever been aware of has been universally welcomed. This is especially true when those changes are fundamental.

So what can we do? As a community we can foster positive criticism or, if that isn’t possible, make sure that the criticism that is given or encouraged in threads is factual rather than hate filled. We can do this in our responses to others in threads even if they start out badly. As such I don’t agree with staying not reading them, a steadying and reasonable response can sometimes go a long way to making an unhappy poster still feel that the community is hearing them while encouraging better posting habits. It doesn’t always work though.

What can the devs do? Use the official response threads more. The official discussion for ESO plus has a sum total of 2 responses in it. The overview of the questions asked on the AUA on Reddit was posted by a community member, not ZOS. The developer tracker shows sporadic responses to some concerns in various threads but I have not been aware of any updates to the FAQ, or any other FAQs, being made in light of the questions that the community has asked. In this regard I don’t believe ZOS is helping to reduce the amount of panic in the way that clear, visible communication might. I would certainly have counselled ZOS to stay away from General for the first 48 hours after the announcement. 6 days later I am not so sure.

TL;DR I agree with the OP, with caveats…. and sorry for the essay. I tried to edit it down. I failed.