Was Zenimax stupid like a fox?

Vahrokh

knightblaster wrote: »

Definitely. It's a lack of patience by companies and investors. CCP didn't have its current playerbase back in 2004 (I was there). It built up over time. Today there doesn't seem to be that kind of patience.

Back in 2004, CCP did not get a 9 figures loan from a fund. Those pesky investors tend to want their money back, plus interest.

Guppet

Personally I think it was planned all along. Regardless of what some may claim, it's a very solid business decision. They have maximised profits from the sub model, now they do the same with the new model.

MornaBaine

Guppet wrote: »

Personally I think it was planned all along. Regardless of what some may claim, it's a very solid business decision. They have maximised profits from the sub model, now they do the same with the new model.

PLEASE tell me that was an attempt at irony Guppet. I'm used to you being pretty smart. The ACTUAL phrase is, "Crazy like a fox" and is used to denote someone who acts in ways that SEEM crazy but are, in fact, quite clever and have a purpose that does not become apparent until later. Which makes the OP's title make perfect sense.

Guppet

MornaBaine wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Personally I think it was planned all along. Regardless of what some may claim, it's a very solid business decision. They have maximised profits from the sub model, now they do the same with the new model.

PLEASE tell me that was an attempt at irony Guppet. I'm used to you being pretty smart. The ACTUAL phrase is, "Crazy like a fox" and is used to denote someone who acts in ways that SEEM crazy but are, in fact, quite clever and have a purpose that does not become apparent until later. Which makes the OP's title make perfect sense.

The phrase is cunning like a fox, at least it is here in the UK. Also what you quoted from me made no reference to the ops title

Crazy like a fox does indeed appear to be an Americanism. Also the op failed to use that phrase correctly then.

There are a fair few regional differences between English and American. Causes all sorts of comedy with my colleagues in the states. If course I tell them (quite correctly) that American is not its own language, it's just poorly spoken English.

MornaBaine

Guppet wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Personally I think it was planned all along. Regardless of what some may claim, it's a very solid business decision. They have maximised profits from the sub model, now they do the same with the new model.

PLEASE tell me that was an attempt at irony Guppet. I'm used to you being pretty smart. The ACTUAL phrase is, "Crazy like a fox" and is used to denote someone who acts in ways that SEEM crazy but are, in fact, quite clever and have a purpose that does not become apparent until later. Which makes the OP's title make perfect sense.

The phrase is cunning like a fox, at least it is here in the UK. Also what you quoted from me made no reference to the ops title

Then either I quoted the wrong post (quite possible and if so, my apologies) or you edited it for more than a typo or something. Although I wasn't aware that the quoted post in my post could change were that the case. *insert my puzzled expression here*

Guppet

Maybe just maybe I made the faux par you are referring to, but I have ninja editing skills, we will never know.

MornaBaine

Guppet wrote: »

Maybe just maybe I made the faux par you are referring to, but I have ninja editing skills, we will never know.

You, Sir, are a bad, bad man and will no doubt come to a very bad end. LOL

Faugaun

Haha, y'all are crackalackin

Guppet

Faugaun wrote: »

Haha, y'all are crackalackin

I don't even. That's not a real word. Arrrghh!

Audigy

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Faugaun

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Should be totally fine...unless of course they had a 9 figure development budget pre launch

EölMPK

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Again, why people say it's going f2p?
It's the same that saying that gw2 is F2P, but you will never find anyone saying that gw2 is f2p.

This boggles my mind oO

Faugaun

Even f2p is not f2p....no mmo is free. And the best model is where everyone who uses the service supports the service equally.

Guppet

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Every set of investors think they can make WoW levels of cash though, they probably would not finance unless the Devs implied they could compete. These days games are more often made for the money. The days of games being made for the love of the game are sadly long gone. The more mainstream anything gets the more it changes to be profit driven. That's not just games.

Fine, is not what people aim for. Unless they go to modern non competitive schools, but that's a whole other rant.

EölMPK

Faugaun wrote: »

Even f2p is not f2p....no mmo is free. And the best model is where everyone who uses the service supports the service equally.

Agreed. But I just can't understand why people call f2p a game that you have to spend at least $59 to be able to download the client...

AshySamurai

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

I get it. It's all your fault! lol! ESO goes b2p because you playing it.

Metrobius

I dont understand the people in this thread who qrw saying ZOS didnt mislead us.
Before the game ever launched they promised a whole list of content to us fo right after launch and it never came. Then they rwmove the 6 month sub option and lie -and I mean a bold faced and patheticly obvious lie- about the reason. Then they announced the buy to play change saying its what the players want? And magically have a fully developed cash shop along with a bunch of cash shop exclusive items are all ready to go.
They had this planned from the beginning and they lied all along to convince us to buy their special edition preorders and continue to pay our subs so they could fund their retail beta test.

We were lied to, and our sub money was used to fund work on the cash shop and all of those cash shop exclusive items while we still deal with bugs that we reported in closed beta. And the content? we are still waiting for content that was promised and pushed back again and again.
I enjoy tue game, and I have never left a solid game to shiw my disapproval of the company that runs it, but i cant understand how so many people are blind to all of these facts.

An MMO isnt like a movie. We dont pay admission for a static product, we pay to have access to an evolving game based on the vision that is described to us by its creators. To say that we pay for access to the game as-is is completely dishonest, since no one would buy or play an MMO without knowing what the future plans for it are like.

Faugaun

Grunge wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Even f2p is not f2p....no mmo is free. And the best model is where everyone who uses the service supports the service equally.

Agreed. But I just can't understand why people call f2p a game that you have to spend at least $59 to be able to download the client...

Agreed.

Metrobius wrote: »

I dont understand the people in this thread who qrw saying ZOS didnt mislead us.
Before the game ever launched they promised a whole list of content to us fo right after launch and it never came. Then they rwmove the 6 month sub option and lie -and I mean a bold faced and patheticly obvious lie- about the reason. Then they announced the buy to play change saying its what the players want? And magically have a fully developed cash shop along with a bunch of cash shop exclusive items are all ready to go.
They had this planned from the beginning and they lied all along to convince us to buy their special edition preorders and continue to pay our subs so they could fund their retail beta test.

We were lied to, and our sub money was used to fund work on the cash shop and all of those cash shop exclusive items while we still deal with bugs that we reported in closed beta. And the content? we are still waiting for content that was promised and pushed back again and again.
I enjoy tue game, and I have never left a solid game to shiw my disapproval of the company that runs it, but i cant understand how so many people are blind to all of these facts.

An MMO isnt like a movie. We dont pay admission for a static product, we pay to have access to an evolving game based on the vision that is described to us by its creators. To say that we pay for access to the game as-is is completely dishonest, since no one would buy or play an MMO without knowing what the future plans for it are like.

I kinda agree with you on this mmo and movies are different from a legal perspective its like comparing building construction and agriculture...completely different.

Faugaun

Maybe futures and cds is a better comparison....cds you know what your getting, futures could change quickly....


At the same time the consumer has some responsibility to understand the risk that there may be change and the consumer needs to research the entity they conduct business with to an appropriate level.

Audigy

Grunge wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Again, why people say it's going f2p?
It's the same that saying that gw2 is F2P, but you will never find anyone saying that gw2 is f2p.

This boggles my mind oO

But it is F2P isn't it? A player doesn't need to pay

Grunge wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Even f2p is not f2p....no mmo is free. And the best model is where everyone who uses the service supports the service equally.

Agreed. But I just can't understand why people call f2p a game that you have to spend at least $59 to be able to download the client...

Because the term F2P has nothing to do with buying a box, but actually paying a fee to play

If you don't have to pay money then its free At least this is my understanding.

Even if we would use your definition, ESO right now is on sale for 10-15 bucks already. Its only a matter of time when its available for free download.

AshySamurai wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

I get it. It's all your fault! lol! ESO goes b2p because you playing it.

Haha, that must be it!

Metrobius wrote: »

I dont understand the people in this thread who qrw saying ZOS didnt mislead us.
Before the game ever launched they promised a whole list of content to us fo right after launch and it never came. Then they rwmove the 6 month sub option and lie -and I mean a bold faced and patheticly obvious lie- about the reason. Then they announced the buy to play change saying its what the players want? And magically have a fully developed cash shop along with a bunch of cash shop exclusive items are all ready to go.
They had this planned from the beginning and they lied all along to convince us to buy their special edition preorders and continue to pay our subs so they could fund their retail beta test.

We were lied to, and our sub money was used to fund work on the cash shop and all of those cash shop exclusive items while we still deal with bugs that we reported in closed beta. And the content? we are still waiting for content that was promised and pushed back again and again.
I enjoy tue game, and I have never left a solid game to shiw my disapproval of the company that runs it, but i cant understand how so many people are blind to all of these facts.

An MMO isnt like a movie. We dont pay admission for a static product, we pay to have access to an evolving game based on the vision that is described to us by its creators. To say that we pay for access to the game as-is is completely dishonest, since no one would buy or play an MMO without knowing what the future plans for it are like.

The things you said also bother me a lot.

We can not blame the Mods and Community guys, as they just did their job and were not allowed to be honest.

But yes, it feels weird and wrong.

While I don't care about having a shop or not (WOW has one and it didn't influence my fun there), the Spell Weaving Update or the lack of the PVP in the JS is a big issue for me.

They basically stopped working on at least the Spell Weaving, which I find incredible rude and disrespectful, as it was shown so early in 2014 as the big feature of ESO, same with Wrothgar and a lot of other things. Its just very hard to believe ZO anything right now, as there is a saying that if a person lies once, then he or she will do it again and again.

Their PR department totally messed up, its the same story like with SWTOR. Not so much the fact that it went F2P ruined the fun for players, but the constant lies beginning about non existing HD textures & co.

Guppet wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Every set of investors think they can make WoW levels of cash though, they probably would not finance unless the Devs implied they could compete. These days games are more often made for the money. The days of games being made for the love of the game are sadly long gone. The more mainstream anything gets the more it changes to be profit driven. That's not just games.

Fine, is not what people aim for. Unless they go to modern non competitive schools, but that's a whole other rant.

Sadly true

wraith808

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Look at swtor, even free it only attracts 1.2M active players. And that's Star Wars, one of the most recognised IP in the world.

Even a LOL wasn't enough for this statement. It attracts 1.2m active players if you cook the numbers. In reality, the active population isn't even half that in most estimations.

wraith808

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Faugaun‌
Honesty would have been enough, yes.
"Sorry guys, we're bringing you the game on xbox one but couldn't get the xbox live fee removed."

For what it's worth, most players interested in multiplayer games already pay it, so adding an MMO to their game library would just make their subscription even more worth it.

And I don't foresee how it is even possible for the game not to become p2w. Cosmetics and DLC only won't support the game. Every other game had to dip into the water.
They've been smart not to release xp boosters yet in the store on PTS, but they will come. Same for DLC exclusive skill lines and gear.

Have you noticed that even now they're not offering ESO+ on consoles? And they said they had to investigate how to bring that to the consoles? If that's not telling enough as to how much resistance that they've had from other venues, I don't know what is...

Guppet

Buy to play is better than free to play. They are not the same thing at all. The first has an initial pay barrier, the latter does not. The latter lets people create as many accounts as they like with no risk of Lost investment, should they get caught cheating. Buy to play costs people at least the initial purchase price if they get banned, so behaviour is much better in buy to play.

darthbelanb14_ESO

I called it during closed beta. And if anyone didn't see it coming, you're as blind as Stevie Wonder. I somewhat agree with the writer. F2P doesn't mean a games failure or impending doom. They will make more money in one month when they go B2P than the last 3-4 months combined.

EölMPK

Audigy wrote: »

Grunge wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Again, why people say it's going f2p?
It's the same that saying that gw2 is F2P, but you will never find anyone saying that gw2 is f2p.

This boggles my mind oO

But it is F2P isn't it? A player doesn't need to pay

Grunge wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Even f2p is not f2p....no mmo is free. And the best model is where everyone who uses the service supports the service equally.

Agreed. But I just can't understand why people call f2p a game that you have to spend at least $59 to be able to download the client...

Because the term F2P has nothing to do with buying a box, but actually paying a fee to play

If you don't have to pay money then its free At least this is my understanding.

Even if we would use your definition, ESO right now is on sale for 10-15 bucks already. Its only a matter of time when its available for free download.

AshySamurai wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

I get it. It's all your fault! lol! ESO goes b2p because you playing it.

Haha, that must be it!

Metrobius wrote: »

I dont understand the people in this thread who qrw saying ZOS didnt mislead us.
Before the game ever launched they promised a whole list of content to us fo right after launch and it never came. Then they rwmove the 6 month sub option and lie -and I mean a bold faced and patheticly obvious lie- about the reason. Then they announced the buy to play change saying its what the players want? And magically have a fully developed cash shop along with a bunch of cash shop exclusive items are all ready to go.
They had this planned from the beginning and they lied all along to convince us to buy their special edition preorders and continue to pay our subs so they could fund their retail beta test.

We were lied to, and our sub money was used to fund work on the cash shop and all of those cash shop exclusive items while we still deal with bugs that we reported in closed beta. And the content? we are still waiting for content that was promised and pushed back again and again.
I enjoy tue game, and I have never left a solid game to shiw my disapproval of the company that runs it, but i cant understand how so many people are blind to all of these facts.

An MMO isnt like a movie. We dont pay admission for a static product, we pay to have access to an evolving game based on the vision that is described to us by its creators. To say that we pay for access to the game as-is is completely dishonest, since no one would buy or play an MMO without knowing what the future plans for it are like.

The things you said also bother me a lot.

We can not blame the Mods and Community guys, as they just did their job and were not allowed to be honest.

But yes, it feels weird and wrong.

While I don't care about having a shop or not (WOW has one and it didn't influence my fun there), the Spell Weaving Update or the lack of the PVP in the JS is a big issue for me.

They basically stopped working on at least the Spell Weaving, which I find incredible rude and disrespectful, as it was shown so early in 2014 as the big feature of ESO, same with Wrothgar and a lot of other things. Its just very hard to believe ZO anything right now, as there is a saying that if a person lies once, then he or she will do it again and again.

Their PR department totally messed up, its the same story like with SWTOR. Not so much the fact that it went F2P ruined the fun for players, but the constant lies beginning about non existing HD textures & co.

Guppet wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Every MMO I joined since 2006 went F2P later.

I am unsure why this is the case, as none of these games were bad. AOC was awesome and still is the most atmospheric MMO I played. Warhammer was fun and had invention, just the client was garbage.

SWTOR was a fraud, but lets forget about this for now, however I enjoyed it a lot pre F2P ...

ESO was great, yet it went F2P.

I often think that todays companies want to make the big money and therefore forget the basics of MMO gaming. A good client, a decent piece if updates and a healthy but small community.

Maybe its the pressure by the publishers, but games these days seem to always want the big numbers and if they don't get them they go F2P. This is especially sad since an MMO is totally fine with just 100k of players.

Every set of investors think they can make WoW levels of cash though, they probably would not finance unless the Devs implied they could compete. These days games are more often made for the money. The days of games being made for the love of the game are sadly long gone. The more mainstream anything gets the more it changes to be profit driven. That's not just games.

Fine, is not what people aim for. Unless they go to modern non competitive schools, but that's a whole other rant.

Sadly true

Sorry, but it seems you don't know what is f2p.
And it does not have anything at all to do with subs fee.

EölMPK

f2p: You dont need to pay nothing in order to download and log in to the game. Examples: Archeage, Rift, Lotro, DDO.

b2p: You have to buy the game in order to play, with no aditional mandatory costs. Ex: GW1, GW2, Secret World, ESO Tamriel Unlimited.

p2p: You have to buy the game, the expansions and still pay the subscription fee in order to be able to even see your character. Ex: WoW, FFXIV.

rawne1980b16_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

But it is F2P isn't it? A player doesn't need to pay

It's Buy to Play. You still need to buy the game to play it.

Free to Play is completely free. You don't need to buy the game or pay a subscription.

Pay to Play is a subscription only game.

One thing I don't understand about all this debating going on .... I can't believe there are people that didn't see this coming.

reften

I ask this question...would you do it all again knowing what you know now?

I would...and you'd be lieing if you said you wouldn't

I've had fun with this game, and continue to have fun with this game. This article tells me nothing.

At no time was I promised anything above and beyond what was delivered. I played month by month and could have cancelled any time. I paid to play the game...if you paid to play a future game, than, it's your own fault.

Basically...I paid $15 in January, to play the game. And I was able to play the game.

Why are people so angry over this? Cancel and move on, or keep playing, it's your choice.

Mercutio

oren74 wrote: »

I ask this question...would you do it all again knowing what you know now?

I would...and you'd be lieing if you said you wouldn't

I've had fun with this game, and continue to have fun with this game. This article tells me nothing.

At no time was I promised anything above and beyond what was delivered. I played month by month and could have cancelled any time.

Why are people so angry over this? Cancel and move on, or keep playing, it's your choice.

This is no place for that type of rational discussion.

EölMPK

I really see no problem about B2P. GW2 is a great game, really really great game. If ESO goes the same way, people have to be happy about it.

F2P is something I have fear though... Never ends well.