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Why is everyone getting so riled up about the upcoming B2P transition?

  • alainjbrennanb16_ESO
    alainjbrennanb16_ESO
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    Neizir wrote: »
    Seriously I couldn't really care less about what mode ESO chooses to have. As long as there's no pay-to-win and I get to play a quality game, I'm fine with any model. I'm definitely sticking around when ESO goes B2P. But come on guys, why are you all so saddened? In fact you should be happy, this could bring in a HUGE wave of players as well as more positivity! If you're worried about the cash shop, remember that it WON'T be selling pay-to-win items! How can a silly costume or an XP booster give you any significant advantage over another player? Especially considering that everyone is boosted to the same level in PvP plus vet ranks are being removed, too.

    Also don't forget that even the mighty WoW is approaching the F2P model (We all know it's coming some day, WoW has been hemorrhaging subs for years. There are signs of its coming in WoD with the F2P veteran's edition.).

    just look at swtor that will tell you everything have a ggod look at store, if you are subbed you should get the really cool in game if you are subbed, but you will not
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  • Mission
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    Cash shop doesn't mean pay to win...SWTOR has a cash shop, It is not pay to win in terms of if I spent a 1000 in the shop i'll just be a 1000 times more powerful then you.

    Now there are games that are Pay to Win, ArcheAge for example..and that *** Russian MMO (can't think of it off the top of my head.)

    But Cash Shops doesn't automatically mean P2W

    It doesn't mean pay to win, but it does usually mean that besides what exists in the game. Most of the development post f2p goes toward the cash shop. This means that if you want any decent looking armor post f2p you are going to have to buy the look. One thing I can see being put on the shop are motifs for special looks.

    Most of the armor looks in swtor that weren't in the shop were horrible. Like they put their worst designers on the in game stuff and the best designers on the shop
  • Tandor
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    4. All the promised 'delayed' content like Wrothgar, Imperial City, new Guilds and housing will be ticked behind a paywall - and you all know that 1,500 crowns per month from a Plus sub will not get you all the content they deem to be optional.

    You get the additional content free with a sub, the monthly crown allowance is for other stuff.
  • tinythinker
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    I will note my disagreement that we were paying to beta-test, as I have in other threads, or that we are owed a refund. We paid for a subscriptions service that we either enjoyed (good value) or that we didn't (poor value). For those who kept paying a for a poor value, well, that's their money and their choice. I got what I paid for, and I was happy with it. I don't begrudge those who unsubbed during that time because they were not satisfied. Why pay for something you don't adequately enjoy or use?

    On the other hand, I strongly suspect that many of the fears and worries that people have been talking about for the B2P model will indeed manifest, though to what degree I cannot say. I *really* don't like the idea of being able to BUY *any* kind of advantage in the game. I wasn't thrilled with the Rings of Mara or the Imperial Horse for 1 gold at launch, but those gimmicks really didn't make any kind of serious difference in the long run and were a kind of opening day stunt. If people don't have to spend time crafting or searching for items or using gold earned through game play to acquire things, that will have a significant impact on the in-game economy and how people play the game.

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  • Nijjion
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    This was inevitable for games in the MMO market these days.

    People think the community will go to crap but it's not a f2p game but a b2p game still.

    GW2 has a great community for being B2P. Surely things are behind a paywall now though if it's aesthetic only or not. (if you don't include the 10% boost).
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  • Khyras
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    Because we paid to be beta testers? Yup, that's why I'm pissed!

    Excuse me,but if you thought game was of the beta quality (which it was on release and in many ascpects still is) you should have stopped playing after the first free month.

  • phreatophile
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    MissBizz wrote: »
    Yes. Personally I am trying to stay optimistic. They have said that there will not be gear or weapons in the shop, but they also said this is a subscription game. Its not that they are lieing, there will not be any weapons or armor in the crown shop now.. But even they don't know what could happen a year from now.

    Same feeling here, it seems to me that, as a subscriber, we get full access to everything just like now. This also includes, in our subscription, a pile of cash shop currency.

    The price of addmission has been lowered for a basic no frills version of the game. As long as there isn't buy to win, this isn't that big of a deal.
  • Xsorus
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    Mission wrote: »
    Cash shop doesn't mean pay to win...SWTOR has a cash shop, It is not pay to win in terms of if I spent a 1000 in the shop i'll just be a 1000 times more powerful then you.

    Now there are games that are Pay to Win, ArcheAge for example..and that *** Russian MMO (can't think of it off the top of my head.)

    But Cash Shops doesn't automatically mean P2W

    It doesn't mean pay to win, but it does usually mean that besides what exists in the game. Most of the development post f2p goes toward the cash shop. This means that if you want any decent looking armor post f2p you are going to have to buy the look. One thing I can see being put on the shop are motifs for special looks.

    Most of the armor looks in swtor that weren't in the shop were horrible. Like they put their worst designers on the in game stuff and the best designers on the shop

    Not true...SWTOR has some decent looking gear not available in the shops.

    hell, the Bounty Hunter Warzone armor Rank 60ish I think is some of the coolest looking armor in the game
  • Amsel_McKay
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    Tandor wrote: »
    I couldn't agree more with the OP. I see this as a positive move.

    Unfortunately, a lot of players don't appreciate the distinction between F2P (bad) and B2P (not so bad), and obsession with P2W is very much a PvP issue and therefore doesn't impact on me as I have no interest in PvP. I doubt very much, however, that ZOS intend to make a mess of that aspect and if the game is adopting the same model as TSW - which it looks like doing - then it can only be a good thing for its long-term survival and growth. Freeloaders won't like it because it isn't going pure F2P and they'll be caught by some restrictions in terms of the DLC, but so what?

    This model is what LoRTO was doing and now its almost completely F2P model... it just takes time. The rush of box purchases die down and then they think oh no we need more money... add more cash shop.
  • Sarru
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    1. Because ZOS lied.
    2. Because we've been paying to beta test for a year.
    3. Because if they sneak in Crowns for XP boosters it will be P2W with the new CP for XP system being implemented.
    4. All the promised 'delayed' content like Wrothgar, Imperial City, new Guilds and housing will be ticked behind a paywall - and you all know that 1,500 crowns per month from a Plus sub will not get you all the content they deem to be optional.
    5. And because ZOS lied.
    This.
    And...6. Because ZOS lied.
  • Tavore1138
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    Tandor wrote: »
    4. All the promised 'delayed' content like Wrothgar, Imperial City, new Guilds and housing will be ticked behind a paywall - and you all know that 1,500 crowns per month from a Plus sub will not get you all the content they deem to be optional.

    You get the additional content free with a sub, the monthly crown allowance is for other stuff.

    That's not exactly how they phrased it and my inner cynic gets twitchy when they start speaking in what sounds like lawyer language - I hope you are correct but they left themselves plenty of room to decide which content they deem eligible to be 'free' with a sub and which might cost Crowns.
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  • Forestd16b14_ESO
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    The game is gonna go on to be awesome reguardless i being B2P. Besides B2P was happening if we like it or not due to consoles. You already gotta pay for PS plus and Xbox live so stack that with the supscripton fee and that's what 50 bucks a month and for yearly that well over 120 or something like that. So to any one who is butt hurt about B2P you really wanna blame some one blame console.
  • Kreetar
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    I really don't know how I feel about all of this. I can see from the points of view from those who post optimistically, and those who post skeptically/angrily. I, myself, am doing my best to remain optimistic. :confused:
    dip me in the blood of mortals and throw me to the Dremora

  • Mortuum
    Mortuum
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    @Neizir, you are either very naive, or it is your first MMO, no offense mate, but you still believe them when they say no P2W items? Same like they said ''we not going to change subscription plan'' or ''we will rather shut servers down then go F2P''?
    Seen it in LOTRO, RIFT, and other games...Just wait for first lockboxes and new pots or similar items. It can be ok at start, with fair store(like RIFT did), but with time they will have to get people to using store, because honestly, how many costumes you can buy? Or horses? Initial big cash stream from boxes with B2P transition will become smaller and smaller...
    Then it will be time for new CP constelations and CP itself from store, top tier pots etc etc.
  • Morvul
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    people are riled up because we have yet to see a single MMO which does not go down the drain once the cash shop gets serious...
  • Korah_Eaglecry
    Korah_Eaglecry
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    People are getting upset because they arent bothering to go look over or listen/watch the information that has been released today. Theyre jumping to the conclusion the game will crumble with the change.

    But if anyone watched the ESO Live. Theyll know that what we have in the current game isnt going anywhere. Things arent being dumbed down. The only change is that F2P Gamers will be coming into the game and for them to access areas that havent been added yet. They will have to buy the DLCs like they would of had to do with Skyrim.
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  • McDoogs
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    Morvul wrote: »
    people are riled up because we have yet to see a single MMO which does not go down the drain once the cash shop gets serious...

    MMOs go from sub to cash shop because things have already gone down the drain.
  • Ouranos
    Ouranos
    It's been told to us that the P2P model is the one which enables the company to provide content like the game was designed to deliver. This came straight from the mouths of the developers.

    F2P will obviously be the opposite.

    There will be lay-offs, communication will dwindle, customer service will be outsourced and then disappear completely, "content" will become worse than it is now with a massively reduced budget over time (except for whatever was in the pipeworks before this decision was made), gameplay will be made insanely more grindy to force people to pay for premium "ease-of-service" items from the cash shop, we'll probably lose voice acting since that's expensive stuff...

    Yep.
  • tinythinker
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    People are getting upset because they arent bothering to go look over or listen/watch the information that has been released today. Theyre jumping to the conclusion the game will crumble with the change.

    But if anyone watched the ESO Live. Theyll know that what we have in the current game isnt going anywhere. Things arent being dumbed down. The only change is that F2P Gamers will be coming into the game and for them to access areas that havent been added yet. They will have to buy the DLCs like they would of had to do with Skyrim.

    Some people dread the new players, but more seem worried that just because the cash shops and sub/pay content seems mostly cosmetic *now*, this will slowly change over time to become "pay to win". Another larger concern people are expressing is that development of cash shop vanity items will overshadow playable content and lead to less frequent, less fun/challenging new material. I can't say what will happen, but this is mostly what people are worried about.
    Edited by tinythinker on January 21, 2015 7:03PM
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  • AaronMB
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    At least we don't have to continue to pay to play, while continuing to be beta testers.

    With all this new shiit they're going to attempt to develop, I'm even more concerned about those bugs and needed fixes that have been around far too long.

    For me, the sky will be falling when I see new content and the same-old bugs.

    edit:
    I just had a curious thought. I wonder how much of the "I'll pay for housing" and "I'll pay for a mount" and "I'll pay for ____" kinds of posts contributed to this decision: there were many threads & polls.
    Edited by AaronMB on January 21, 2015 7:15PM
  • jasonquigley646_ESO
    I just love how all the self righteous guadians of gaming integrity instantly advertise that they have unsubbed and are leaving the game. Guess what, the world doesn't care, and the gaming industry didn't so much as sneeze or even blink at your departure. If you keep jumping ship from a game everytime their business model changes then you'll just end up spending more money on a bunch of games in the long run...because your search will never end. But asking people to think long term when it comes to gaming is too much.

    Games cost money, lots of it. The people making those games have lives, kids, rent, bills, student loans, etc. They deserve to be compensated for what they do. This is the whole reason we all subbed for the game in the first place, we believed in what they were doing. Now all of a sudden all the forum fanatics have a crystal ball and think they see into the minds of the developers and their focus just because there is going to be a cash shop.

    And if your the type of person that gets all mad because one person has a credit card and you don't, then maybe thats something you need to look at your own situation. MMO's are not just games, they are hobbies. We spend 10-20, sometime 30 hours a week in them. If I want to invest money in my hobby then I'm going to do it. Do you cry foul when you go to work (if you work) in your middle- class car and a Bentley pulls up next to you at a stop light. You both drive, both have jobs, but you're not entitled to his/her car. Same goes for the game. We both pay to be in the game. But if I want to have more toys and glamour than you (keep in mind we are talking vanity, not power) and I am willing to pay for it...then I should be able to buy it.

    If your going to tout the "they lied to me QQ!" defense then thats your right. But if you throw your hands up everytime someone lied, misled, or had a hidden agenda in life you're gonna get nowhere really fast. Get over it. Or better yet...please leave...I'll even pick you up to get on your pedastal of a soap box as your make your exit speech that no one will listen to.
  • Korah_Eaglecry
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    People are getting upset because they arent bothering to go look over or listen/watch the information that has been released today. Theyre jumping to the conclusion the game will crumble with the change.

    But if anyone watched the ESO Live. Theyll know that what we have in the current game isnt going anywhere. Things arent being dumbed down. The only change is that F2P Gamers will be coming into the game and for them to access areas that havent been added yet. They will have to buy the DLCs like they would of had to do with Skyrim.

    Some people dread the new players, but more seem worried that just because the cash shops and sub/pay content seems mostly cosmetic *now*, this will slowly change over time to become "pay to win". Another larger concern people are expressing is that development of cash shop vanity items will overshadow playable content and lead to less frequent, less fun/challenging new material. I can't say what will happen, but this is mostly what people are worried about.

    Being a Free Player does not indicate they are horrible gamers. That being able to pay a sub means its keeping out the riff-raff. Money does not prevent riff-raff. Never has never will.

    As for the Cash Shop. Yes at first theres nothing but vanity. And yes theres a solid chance there will be slightly advantagous items added.

    If they stick to the way SWTOR has done their store. Theyll be fine. You wont see anything in the store, stats wise, that you wont be able to get in game. It might have a different color or a diffent visual. But it wont pull anything that something that is a in-game equivilant wont be able to provide.
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  • tinythinker
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    People are getting upset because they arent bothering to go look over or listen/watch the information that has been released today. Theyre jumping to the conclusion the game will crumble with the change.

    But if anyone watched the ESO Live. Theyll know that what we have in the current game isnt going anywhere. Things arent being dumbed down. The only change is that F2P Gamers will be coming into the game and for them to access areas that havent been added yet. They will have to buy the DLCs like they would of had to do with Skyrim.

    Some people dread the new players, but more seem worried that just because the cash shops and sub/pay content seems mostly cosmetic *now*, this will slowly change over time to become "pay to win". Another larger concern people are expressing is that development of cash shop vanity items will overshadow playable content and lead to less frequent, less fun/challenging new material. I can't say what will happen, but this is mostly what people are worried about.

    Being a Free Player does not indicate they are horrible gamers. That being able to pay a sub means its keeping out the riff-raff. Money does not prevent riff-raff. Never has never will.

    As for the Cash Shop. Yes at first theres nothing but vanity. And yes theres a solid chance there will be slightly advantagous items added.

    If they stick to the way SWTOR has done their store. Theyll be fine. You wont see anything in the store, stats wise, that you wont be able to get in game. It might have a different color or a diffent visual. But it wont pull anything that something that is a in-game equivilant wont be able to provide.

    To be clear I was just summarizing the freak-out that has been going on today, not suggesting I am in complete agreement with all of those fears. The only way to know for sure is to wait and see how the situation unfolds.
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  • Zhoyzu
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    Lynnessa wrote: »
    My perspective is similar to yours, @Neizir. Cheers!

    I do understand why people feel like they were used, paying for a beta test.

    However... if this had all been a free beta all along, then ZoS wouldn't have gotten all of the feedback from players that has helped to shape the game, and I think we can all agree that the game has been steadily improving.

    implying they listened to ANYONE. or acted upon ANY of the advice given by the players. ZoS has had their heads up their arses since the beginning and its obvious now.

    Paying for the premium wont even be worth it! THEY CANT FIX THE ISSUES. if they couldnt do it while people were paying to play, what incentive do they have now to make the game remotely playable? NONE. This game is now going to stagnate as the issues will never be solved, only more issues will be brought to light every time the "add" to this game.
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  • adamastorx
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    It depends.
    Examples:
    I have a Lifetime sub in LOTRO, but I find the game annoying because so many stuff turn around the store, about selling you things. Advertisements, messages telling you to buy Turbine Points.
    SWTOR, I pay a sub, but the Cartel Market is within the game mechanics, I don't like that.
    AoC or TSW, on other hand, don't bother the player with advertisements. I like that.
    In GW2 the store has a big part. It's different from the GW1 shop.

    I don't mind the shop in WoW or FFXIV because they're not within the game mechanics.
    MMORPG used to be virtual worlds, nowadays they're getting similar to smartphone games.
  • Torquebow
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    A.) They withheld information from their paying subscriber's in fear of losing money from them before they released information about this new model.

    B.) People fear that the game will be like all the other non sub based games with gold spammers everywhere, little kids spamming non sense in chat all hours of the day, and general lack of good content for players in lou of cash shop items. Also probably the biggest concern is the option of P2W items in the cash shop.

    Easily summed up....

    Also XP potions are pay to win. You are taking your money and buying an item to get a bonus that someone else cannot get in-game. Therefore, you are getting through the content faster, gearing up faster, and progressing through the game faster than someone who isn't. Competitively, that is the epitome of pay to win.
    Edited by Torquebow on January 21, 2015 7:53PM
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  • Morvul
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    adamastorx wrote: »
    MMORPG used to be virtual worlds, nowadays they're getting similar to smartphone games.

    exactly the problem
  • dgroutb16_ESO
    Every single game ive played that went from subscription model to B2P or F2P started bit by bit to put all the intersting gear in a shop and left the core game neglected... wont waste my time in another so +1 on the cancelled list.
  • Vyndeleron
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    I'm back after a very long break (haven't played since early access) as I was waiting for the game to be properly developed... it was going oh so well especially since the Quakecon 2014 had me excited... was fine waiting for the content/features to be implement to make this mmo unique and all that

    Today however has killed any hope for me to play this game... the current community is in a uproar while eventually the new community (aka wont play this mmo if not b2p/f2p n dont care about the game nor community itself) will take over... this thing happen to GW2 which I left after a year of release

    MMOs need a healthy active community... it was obvious the uproar that was caused at launch that caused people to leave and eventually it will be no different with todays announcement and then after the transition people still realize this MMO still not good (cause they have it in their head "Hey I don't have to pay a sub so its a good MMO")

    Look I play MMOs for the sake of playing a damn mmo... but when it consists so much solo content and people just down right dont want to do a darn thing with others (especially encouraging people to do so) and the community just dont acknowledge each others existence it eventually becomes non-social mmo to point of why bother playing

    I have no beef with sub/f2p/b2p video games... aslong I'm having fun / invested in it then I will play but when it comes to MMOs you just can't have people leave over and over again... cause it didn't feel mmoish enough

    Any who think other mmorpgs payment transitions were successful... you really need to take a look at how the community was then to how it is now... very good chance it failed (sure it still makes the publisher/devs money but success isn't measured with moolah) but the community is non-existent to the point of asking yourself "Is this really how MMOs play?"

    Current community should be upset since it is in jeopardy... eventually to be overrun by those who just dont care about mmos cause no subs... the community wants others (from friends to strangers) to be playing this game the way it was meant (together in some way shape n form) but when you have people that now want to play this game cause no subs are likely not going to contribute (positively) to the community anyways
    Edited by Vyndeleron on January 21, 2015 8:12PM
  • Stonesthrow
    Stonesthrow
    ✭✭✭✭
    Had fun playing, having fun playing and will continue having fun playing… with a full paid sub.

    Doesn't anyone have any real life experience with a company not doing 100% what they said they would? Is this new? Is this your first time?

    Things change, deal with it. New mantra for ya, It's a game… it's a GAME…

    So quit or keep playing… stay or bugger off…

    Look at Matt's face during the first 10-15 mins of that ESO LIVE a few hours ago. He KNOWS a bunch of you are going to quit over this, he expects to lose subs because of this… so go out with some dignity will ya?

    Anyone over 12 should not be having such a conniption here.

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