How about... remove classes (make all skill lines available to everybody)

Wizzo91

No. Just no.

nerevarine1138

Peteris wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Such an original thread!

Use the search function, this has been discussed to death over and over.

Obviously not enough since that has not been done.
And although I am grateful for your wise advice you are missing point for making this thread.

That's completely illogical. Just because they haven't listened to your terrible idea doesn't mean that other people haven't brought up the same terrible idea a few hundred times.

The topic has been beaten to death. They're not going to change it, but that doesn't mean the topic hasn't been discussed ad nauseam.

SoonerMagicEE

A "classless" MMO has been done successfully before. Anyone who played SWG before it was ruined by the "I want everything now with zero effort" crowd knows this.

You need 2 things to make it work properly: skill balance (not yet achieved, obviously) and limits to how many of the more powerful abilities one character can have (deeper skill trees with a more limited pool of skill points).

It can be done, and IMO it should be if this game is to keep more in line with the Elder Scrolls way of doing things. While "classes" existed in Elder Scrolls before Skyrim, they were there only in name for their role playing value. They had little or no impact on actual game play.

SoonerMagicEE

To add to that, preventing players from instantly switching skills would be needed, ala SWG. You could "respec" for free, but you had to relearn the skills each time. The way it's currently implemented in ESO, once you've learned a skill, you can instantly relearn it simply by paying for it.

TGiordano92

What about just making every character be able to switch between every class, like FFXIV, FFXI etc.? I would like to try the other classes on my character.

WraithAzraiel

Check this idea out.


Say they did do away with classes, know what that would do? Diversification would go out the window.

There would be 3 maybe 4 build combinations that EVERYONE and their mother would use. It'd be like playing with thousands of clones. If you think cookie cutter builds and Flavor of the Month is bad now. You'd be swimming through broken builds roflstomping each other in PvP. Drowning in clones steamrolling dungeons and Trials to the point where everyone would get bored and up and leave.

Wizzo91

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Check this idea out.


Say they did do away with classes, know what that would do? Diversification would go out the window.

There would be 3 maybe 4 build combinations that EVERYONE and their mother would use. It'd be like playing with thousands of clones. If you think cookie cutter builds and Flavor of the Month is bad now. You'd be swimming through broken builds roflstomping each other in PvP. Drowning in clones steamrolling dungeons and Trials to the point where everyone would get bored and up and leave.

This sums it up.

Cody

I don't want 99% of the players I face to be a bunch of reflective scales spamming perma block using GDB using and talons/flame whip spamming DKs with banner spam being used constantly.

In other words: if this change were to go thru, there would be ZERO diversity. ZERO. EVERYONE save the stubborn die-hards like me, would load up the FOTM DK build/skills on their bar, and the game would turn into one of the worst video games in history.

Even worse than Call of Duty!:O yes!!! it would even be worse then Call of duty; something very few video games have ever achieved.

So, no. I don't want this to happen. The current system is imbalanced and f**** up, but it can be fixed. Id rather see it fixed than changed for something far worse.

SoonerMagicEE

You guys obviously didn't play SWG. Getting rid of classes doesn't mean cookie cutter builds. That argument is completely wrong. A poorly designed skill system does that, whether there are classes or not.

Cyhawk

This system would work well. Just allow only 3 class skill lines to be unlocked at a time and you end up with diversity. Simple statistics can allow the devs to see which ones people dont use and end up buffing them. Your class selection would just have the original 3 unlocked and when you hit 50/respec/something you can respec completely and use 3 points to unlock 3 chosen skill lines.

Would this create FoTM builds? Yes. People want to be "the best" and will do whatever "the best" player tells them to do. This is why advertising works in the real world. Better wear those Jordons to make you a better basketball player. It isn't a bad thing. FoTM builds are popular because they're good or have some sort of advantage over the rest of the field. In a living system this normally means they exploit a weakness in the current meta thus keeping the system alive. Eve-online has had this going on for years and has kept the game healthy and evolving month after month. Its the eternal cycle that allows followers to follow and innovaters to innovate. This is not a bad thing, its a good thing that keeps the game fresh as things need to keep changing instead of becoming stale, like the current state of the game. Players can take control of the meta and not rely on the devs to change something.

Would this reduce build diversity? No, right now we have 4, maybe 8. (Magicka/Stam for 4 classes) Opening up people to do what they wish would instantly create build diversity. If this happened with the release of 1.6 (due to the sorc pet changes) I'd instantly switch to Restoring Light(Templar), Daedric Summoning (Sorc) and Siphoning/Shadow or something. An army of summons, with good defenses? Sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me. Opening the class system INCREASES build diversity exponentially.

Would this destroy the "holy trinity"? No, of course not. The holy trinity isn't because of classes, its because of roles. Templars are healers because they have access to the only good healing spell in the game. DKs are tanks because they have access to beneficial passives and abilities for tanking that work better than any other class. The roles are still needed for content, people will pick up the slack and do these roles. If anything it will help better players by allowing us to optimize builds for specific roles or branch out and break the holy trinity

Lastly, it'd become much more Elder Scrollsy. Previous games (aside from Skyrim and Arena) classes were just what skills you progressed in faster. Just a guideline never a hard rule. Given enough time you were proficient in everything and can do everything equally. Started as a Warrior and want to become a Battlemage? Just takes you a bit longer to become proficient. Want to become a thief but you're an ugly battleaxe wielding orc? It's gonna be a while but you'll get there.

Its a good idea, and those of you who complain about FoTM builds, guess what, you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

WraithAzraiel

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

You guys obviously didn't play SWG. Getting rid of classes doesn't mean cookie cutter builds. That argument is completely wrong. A poorly designed skill system does that, whether there are classes or not.

Oh I played SWG. And if this game were to get rid of classes and keep the skills the way they are, what I said, is exactly what would happen.

However, if they completely revamped the skills system, things would be different. But that would require ESO to pull a Final Fantasy, and cancel the game, rework it, then rerelease.

So no, the argument is not completely wrong. Or wrong at all for that matter.

SoonerMagicEE

Obviously the skills would need a revamp (they do anyways) and the trees would need to be deeper (to prevent players becoming proficient in all combat skills). And it wouldn't require a rework of the game. They're constantly revamping the skills. In fact, they're still in the process of making major overhauls (see the Champion System) to the skills. It is far from undoable. Also, your argument that it will create cookie cutter builds is still wrong. Poor skill design does that, not the lack of class boundaries, as I've already pointed out. Poor skill design will create a system of cookie cutter builds no matter what. Your argument against cookie cutter builds is more an argument for better skill design....not for or against classes.

miahq

Granted, I probably would've liked it better if I'd started out classless-- or at least had the option-- and then had to chose from a class within the game world, and become a part of that class through a quest line. That however would require more than the 4 generic choices they've given. And it would've meant being able to leave on and going to a second class, with perhaps some restrictions because "this faction won't take people from this group."

That could've been easily done from the beginning, but they didn't. This is the system they have and frankly I don't see them changing it any time soon. I mean they don't really listen to forum feed back as often as I'd imagine people think. Most every issue that comes up here splits the forum, so yeah... technically whichever chipotle they decide to make you could say "they listened to the fans," but considering half he people are usually saying do the opposite, it's a bit silly to think that way.

Leeric

Peteris wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Such an original thread!

Use the search function, this has been discussed to death over and over.

Obviously not enough since that has not been done.
And although I am grateful for your wise advice you are missing point for making this thread.

That is....literally the worst answer you could have written.
It hasn't been done because it would unbalance the game....You really want ZOS to rebalance everything again after they already will for the CP system.

No logic at all there dude. Its not a good idea, hence why it has been discussed, to death and nothing has been changed. Pretty much the exact opposite of your thought process lol

Cody

With this argument, one can take the optimistic side: that it would help diversity and make the game better: that a healthy balance would occur between those that take the FOTM build and the "underdog" builds, and create diversity, or one could take the pessimistic side: that almost everyone would go with the one best build, thereby destroying any and all diversity.

I myself choose the pessimistic side.

I believe removing classes is too much of a risk to take at the moment. perhaps in the future, when all the skills are on a more equal level, this could be done; but as of now, no. I don't believe this should be done.

xaade

There is NOTHING inherently wrong with a classless MMO.
It's just that removing the classes wouldn't work with the skills we have now.

Why?

Because the developers don't have a clue how ability synergy works (not ESO "synergies") or how to balance them. That's why half the passives aren't that effective, and half the class abilities look like they don't belong in their respective trees.

The abilities all have tunnel vision.

And that's why we can't remove classes.

The way you really build a skill tree is by "synergy", and no, not synergy as ESO bastardizes the word.

So, what you do is have a skill tree that fully synergizes with itself, and has limited synergy outside its tree. At the same time, you want cross synergy. Why? Because cross synergy IS what creates diversity. Then you have real opportunity costs.

There is very little synergy in this game. Mages guild abilities increase damage for the next spell is an example. This gives you a viable alternative to just spamming pulsar. You can alternate fire-rune and pulsar. Not that many people do it, but it does work. You can also alternate solar flare and pulsar.

What you want are big advantages to keeping as many of a single tree on the bar as possible. There are passives that increase per ability on the bar, but the trees you find them in do not work on their own. So you actually take a GIGANTIC penalty for a little bonus. Other examples of fail? Solar flare affects only one ability in its tree, two abilities in a second tree (and only one of those is aoe, explosive charge, which you have to morph for).
*le-gasp*

Um.... someone didn't do their homework.

This is exactly why we have players just spamming pulsar or steel tornado, even against single targets. There's very little reason to have more than one ability, the rest are support abilities, and then you just switch between your single-target and aoe bars.

Some examples of synergies done right?
2H gives a passive that increases damage after a heavy attack, you also get stamina for a full charge heavy attack. Wow, synergy. You single handedly turned a uppercut spam into a uppercut->heavy combo!!! Combos are fun, ask any fighting game player. Also, since you get stamina back on a heavy attack, you can dodge and block more often. Strategy!!! It Works.

Now, again, you want cross synergies. Because you want players to pick stuff outside their skill lines and mix it up some. You only have 5 slots (ultimates don't need synergies), so 3 in one skill line, and 1 each from a 2nd and third line, for each bar is a great goal.

So, lets look at some ideas.

A skill that heals player if targets under a stun?
Now, wait, we have that, so why aren't more people using the ability in a combo attack? The extra heal isn't worth it. But how can you balance that? If you make the heal more powerful, then people will only attack like that. Maybe make the healing more powerful if low on health? You mean like that other DK ability? Yeah, it gets used. Lash doesn't. We can also up the use if you include disorient.

A heal that does extra healing for every light attack the player does for 5 seconds after casting.
We have an ability that gives health back for attacks on target. Yeah, with a 1.5 second cast time, and no upfront heals! How about at least letting the first heal on attack be a big one.

But Solar flare!
Doesn't work with Spear Shards. Why? Because the ability uses dot mechanics. The base ability must be setup as one dot? Who the hell knows, I still haven't heard back from several bug posts. The response I got back was that it won't work with dots, because buffing one dot is lame. Ignore the fact that you have to morph shards to get a dot. Ignore the fact that it works with reflected light.
Also doesn't work with fire rune. I'm thinking it's a problem with ground targeting abilities.

But DK abilities increase fire damage. Use a fire staff?
NO. It was OP? and removed, at least for the whip morph. Maybe Pulsar is the broken ability? I mean, abilities that get to scale on resource use and weapon ability and use magicka certainly don't get an advantage on abilities that get buffed by spell power instead. I mean, spell power that can't be increased in a way that scales with level or gear as effectively as a weapon.
Which leads to more pulsar spamming, instead of comboing with a class ability?
Yes, that's right.



So, that's the real problem.
The developers don't even understand ability synergy and how to balance it with the class restrictions, it will be even more hell without the classes.
There is NOTHING inherently wrong with a classless MMO.

The class abilities are already outnumbered by abilities from outside your class as is. Which means its like 60% classless right now. (Except bow is only effective on nightblades, but that's a problem for another post).

AlexDougherty

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

You guys obviously didn't play SWG. Getting rid of classes doesn't mean cookie cutter builds. That argument is completely wrong. A poorly designed skill system does that, whether there are classes or not.

It does when the skill lines have been set up the way they have.

With the skill lines as they are, and a limit on five skills (plus an ultimate) per bar (two bars for most, sorcs get a third bar if they use a certain skill, but that uses a slot). You would find most using identical builds.

I'm sure SWG set up their skills so that the pro/cons of each skill were better balanced.

But this isn't SWG this is ESO, and those skills and the skill lines are what we have grown to love. In fact I would say the majority of us actually like the Classes, they give us a theme to build our characters around, and give each character a ESO feel to them and their abilities.

Which is why I'm saying lets not get rid of classes.

dodgehopper_ESO

AlexDougherty wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

OP should go back to playing Skyrim. He clearly has no idea what an MMO is.

That's a touch hard, there are MMOs that do do it like what the OP wants, Just this isn't one, nor should it be.

I don't see why this one can't. Many MMO's are built around the idea that what is in your tray determines your 'class', and it requires understanding of the game to know what your role is. Secret World is actually really good in this regard. When I say I wish this game were class-less, I don't mean that I want to see the end of classes. I can't remember a single TES game that didn't have Classes. The difference between TES and many other games is that Class did not determine what you became. You could very easily start out as a thief and become a master healer/mage type character. You could start as a warrior and become a thief. You could start out as a mage and become a warrior. The reason I mention Secret World is that they've done it in a game and it works. Their loadout system isn't really much different.

The areas where our game diverges, is that we have unique skill lines given to our classes. Templars are the Mysticism/Destruction/Restoration magic types. DK's are the Destruction/Alteration/(with a smidge of restoration) types. I think they could follow theme, balance and growth in parallel to the previous TES games, and still allow players to diverge uniquely. When Nightblades learn Restoration, this opens up the possibility that they might become a proper healer. While a Templar might be able to already morph the skills he has, giving that Templar a leg up on all Restoration oriented things. At the end of the day, what would orient balance here is the 'what you have slotted in the tray thing'.

So when I say I want to see the 'death of classes' here in the forums, I don't mean their doom. I think classes should be what they've always been in Elder Scrolls: The Beginning, the starting theme and background of your character. I don't think they should define what your character must be at end game though. I really believe there's a balance to be had here guys.

Faugaun

TSW did a great implementation of everyone has access to all skills. Let me assure you when you have access to 500 skills there is very little cookie cutter building. Plus with the Major/Minor buff systems balancing will probably be easier since it sounds like complicated stacking mechanics will be disappearing.

dodgehopper_ESO

Also, analogous abilities in the Spellcrafting system don't need to necessarily look and feel the same as something in a Class. The class can still have its unique flavor (Something I actually like). For example a Reflect spell from the Mysticism school wouldn't look like dragon wings flapping necessarily, for instance. Instead it might look like a warping of purple energy going in and out from your character. It would be noticeable and recognizable, but clearly different, which would still help to keep the unique flavor of DK's.

Faugaun

Another key to a functional classless system without cookie cutters is to have lots of different potential strength builds. For instance a good or several good (of each type): counter caster, caster, melee DPs, counter melee DPs, rdps, counter reps, tank, counter tank, support, anti-support, single target buff.....I am sure there are more (for each of these have both single target focused and aoe focused abilities, this doubles the above list and adds to diversity).

The key is to make sure that any particular style is weak to one or more other styles. This means that in PvP if everyone starts going FOTM, then a smart player will shift to a counter build. This actually discourages to many people from going FOTM because then a bunch of people switch to counter builds.

With 5 skills plus an ultimate...you probably need a solid 15 skills for each build type from above (and 3 ultimate options), which all should be different and unique in their own way providing individual strengths and weaknesses.

Beyond that it is just ensuring skill balance (perhaps a program which looks at all active accounts and examines the skill bars, simply summing the number of times a particular skill is present....whoa, I know, totally mind blowing! A program that adds, and you don't even need to add all, just a subsample...perhaps track only the 5k highest ranked PvPers and the 5k best PvEers...). Skills within a strength then get balanced with each other (the 15ish skills) buffing and debuffing to ensure fairly equal usage within the role. Finally monitor the roles themselves to make sure players don't fixate on or ignore one role type (indicating that the role itself, all skills within the role, need buffing/debugging)....this role monitoring can be done the same way, summing to top 5k PvPers, and top 5k PvEers.

Pfft....I'm done ranting....if they want my advice they have my e-mail and you all won't change your minds....old habits die hard right?

AlexDougherty

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

OP should go back to playing Skyrim. He clearly has no idea what an MMO is.

That's a touch hard, there are MMOs that do do it like what the OP wants, Just this isn't one, nor should it be.

I don't see why this one can't.

Because it essentially means tearing down the entire system and rebuilding it.

I have no objection to MMOs that don't use the class system, But they have to be designed for it, not it being open up after a while. It turns a balanced game into a mess.

I have no objection against Open Class games, nor any Objection to Games with Class systems. Just as I have no objection for Open World MMOs or for that matter Theme Park MMOs. But they need to be designed and developed as such, you shouldn't try to turn one type of MMO into another, it rarely works, and frequently destroys the game.

Cathexis

Perhaps make them mutually exclusive to one another in the same manner as vamp/ww, but allow switching.

olsborg

As was said when spellcrafting comes, all spells will be divided into their respective spell school. Illusion, restoration and destruction etc etc. I wish all the class spells was also put into these schools, and classes was removed entirely from the game.

AngryNord

Peteris wrote: »

Well... subj.
It would be nice to get rid of mechanism that has no place in elder scroll games (never had and never will) - classes. Just make all class lines available to everybody.

Can we PLEASE stop this crap???? ALL "MAINSTREAM" TES GAMES EXCEPT SKYRIM HAD CLASSES!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

Reverb

AngryNord wrote: »

Peteris wrote: »

Well... subj.
It would be nice to get rid of mechanism that has no place in elder scroll games (never had and never will) - classes. Just make all class lines available to everybody.

Can we PLEASE stop this crap???? ALL "MAINSTREAM" TES GAMES EXCEPT SKYRIM HAD CLASSES!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

This, I was suprised at Skyrim's build-as-you-go departure from the previous class-based TES builds. I really enjoyed it, but it was a very different approach from the other games. To claim that TES "never had and never will" have class lines is just delusional.

And please let it never happen here. I imagine my Templar with dark exchange, reflective scales and shadow cloak - he would have unreasonable survivability. Same if my NB had Talons and GDB. And if you give my DK BoL and other Templar skills, gods have mercy on you all.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

CreepySpydre wrote: »

What I would like to see is the removal of this annoying triad (meat shield, dps, healer) group set up. Where a number of people can group and do a instance without the annoyance of who is tanking dpsing or healing.

so you just want dreadfully easy content where nothing really matters? people having roles creates efficiency in a group thats why people do it, you can get more dps on a boss with two dedicated dps and a tank and healer focusing on control/buffs/heals than you can with 4 jack of all trades soloing in a group. All four may be weaker alone for their intense focus but are stronger as a group.
its also obvious in pvp, a group with dedicated heals is much stronger then a handfull of dps

you should just look for 3 more people who want to use there solo/leveling builds to do vet dungeons together. maybe you will then learn why people choose to form dedicated efficient groups.