Dear ESO, please don't change critical surge!

Kerioko

As 1.6 is on the horizon, we have heard that all magicka based skills will be based off of spell power and spell crit. For destruction staff based sorcs, this could be a killer blow for those using crit surge for dps. This is a hot topic on most forums with people asking to change crit surge to affect spell power.

One discussion I don't see to often is how a change to in crit surge to spell power would effect stam based sorcs.

I currently run a melee sorc with duel wield and two handed (bow for range fights). With viper's sting and hunding's rage sets and crit surge buff, I can pull more dps and better sustain than I could as a crushing shock sorc.

A change to crit surge to spell power would render almost any stamina based sorc useless.

So I ask ZOS, please make crit surge affect both spell and weapon damage, or provide a way to allow the player to select it to affect one or the other..otherwise sorc will be pigeon holed into only being viable as magicka or stamina based depending on which stat surge affects!

SIN-X

I never heard of what your talking about.....They said that all STAFF skills would be magicka based and scale of spell power they have Never said that all class skill would now scale off of it.....keep crit surge as it and do not buff it to spell damage

Gyudan

The quote that started it:

ZOS_JoeBlackburn wrote: »

Hey Guys,

Qhival's post is super informative, and hopefully we can help clear up a little more of the critical strike info for you. Currently critical strikes are based on the defense that an ability checks when it goes off.

So when you use an ability like Uppercut, it checks against the target's Armor when it does damage. This means it has a Critical Strike chance based off of your Weapon Critical stat.

If you are using an ability like Crystal Shards that checks against the target's Spell Resistance when it does damage, it will base its Critical Strike chance off of your Spell Critical stat.

For Update 6 we are making a huge effort to make sure that everything that costs Magicka scales in damage based off your Max Magicka and Spell Damage, and uses Spell Critical as its Critical Strike Chance. Similarly, all abilities that cost Stamina will scale in damage based off your Max Stamina and Weapon Damage, and use Weapon Critical as their Critical Strike Chance.

We know that currently it’s a little confusing to determine what stats modify your abilities when you put them on your bar, and we are working to make sure it will be very obvious in the future.

Another thread discussing the issue with 200+ comments

QM answer about this issue in that thread:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone. While we aren’t quite ready to discuss all the changes and improvements going into Update 6, we can tell you that many of these changes will specifically address the concerns brought up in this thread. Our primary goal is that regardless of your class and build, you can feel like you can be competitive in the archetype you want to play as.

Lynx7386

That sounds like an even bigger problem for nightblades, who more commonly focus on melee combat and weapon crit. From what zos is saying, all of those nightblade class abilities that currently use weapon crit (surprise attack, impale, death stroke, ambush, etc) are now going to be using spell crit.

DeLindsay

SIN-X wrote: »

I never heard of what your talking about.....They said that all STAFF skills would be magicka based and scale of spell power they have Never said that all class skill would now scale off of it.....keep crit surge as it and do not buff it to spell damage

Yup it means Sorcs will have to stack Spell Damage just like the other 3 Classes will if they want to run the CS build. I do think ZoS will come up with some workaround for Sorcs though.

Cuyler

Easy fix, make surge effect either weapon damage or spell damage whichever is higher.

Kerioko

Cuyler wrote: »

Easy fix, make surge effect either weapon damage or spell damage whichever is higher.

Would be a good idea if they capped at the same amount. On my magicka NB, my spell damage is almost capped at 155, but my weapon is 160 and far from cap!

DeLindsay

The change in 1.6 is that Sorcs keep Crit Surge as is, the 2nd morph changes to also add Spell Dmg but no heal.

eserras7b16_ESO

DeLindsay wrote: »

The change in 1.6 is that Sorcs keep Crit Surge as is, the 2nd morph changes to also add Spell Dmg but no heal.

That. Don't worry

Yusuf

So sorcs are bottlenecked to use a restostaff, equip dark exchange or go melee for solo-pve huh

Grao

Yusuf wrote: »

So sorcs are bottlenecked to use a restostaff, equip dark exchange or go melee for solo-pve huh

Though I like the idea of having Power Surge raise both Weapon and Spell Power I have to admit it will make soloing anything far harder, specially in AoE situations. This is illogical in many levels; first, why would a sorcerer's first priority be increasing weapon power instead of spell power? Second, why a spell that scales from spell power and consumes mana increases weapon power? >.>

I hope they make some changes still or give sorcs a viable self heal.

Domander

They've already said there will be a spellpower morph, though it did sound like you'd have a choice between spell power and crit surge.

I'm hoping that the weapon power one is no longer scaled in power to your max magicka... just doesn't work well as you're more likely to have high stamina if using weapon power.

Kerioko

They said on eso live that they would be changing around 3 class skill morphs for each class to scale on stamina...wonder if the weapon power morph will scale on stamina while the spell power morph will scale on magicka.

I would like them to have the healing on both morph, extend the duration to 30 sec, and then give you the option to morph for either spell power (costs and scales with magicka) or weapon power(costs and scales with stamina)!

NordJitsu

Its a very bad change. Currently we can get a damage buff and heals on crit. Stam sorcs will still be able to do that.

But if you're a magicka sorc you'll have to pick between losing your damage or losing your self heal.

Pick your own nerf!!!

Minack

.

Cathexis

Changes? But Crit Surge for Resto Staff

frostbreeze

Imo now that staves will scale from spell damage its irrational for surge(morphless) to add weapon damage! The class is called sorcerer ffs its meant to weild staves and magic.Sure u can go stamina build if u want but thats personal choice hence they should make surge give spell damage then be morphable to something that adds weapon damage and scale from stamina for all you stamina sorcs(srsly u made a sorc to go stamina?srsly?) and make add sp+heal to crit surge. Besides stamina builds will get a stamina based heal from the new alliance war skill theyre implementing so plz dont nerf us magica sorcs again and do the right thing here zos

NordJitsu

^

Agree.

The base skill and Crit surge should buff spell power. Power surge should buff weapon power, cost stamina, and last longer.

It would synergize both magicka and stamina builds better with the skill.

Kerioko

I would prefer them to get rid of power surge and have two morphs of crit surge that both have the healing...just one affects weapon while the other affects spell...As a stamina build, I still prefer the skill costing magicka, as that saves my stamina pool for skills and blocking...on the other side, as a magicka build, i would want the skill to boost spell power, but cost stamina, so that I have my entire pool devoted to damage and shield spells.

Jitterbug

frostbreeze wrote: »

srsly u made a sorc to go stamina?srsly?

uhm, yeah...

miahq

Gyudan wrote: »

QM answer about this issue in that thread:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone. While we aren’t quite ready to discuss all the changes and improvements going into Update 6, we can tell you that many of these changes will specifically address the concerns brought up in this thread. Our primary goal is that regardless of your class and build, you can feel like you can be competitive in the archetype you want to play as.

This is another way of saying no one is allowed to stand out in anything, because having a build that's better than someone else's crappy build just isn't fair. It mostly involves hitting everything people find useful with the nerf bat until everyone is as bland as everyone else and you've ruined the game. Because somehow it's just not fair that using those two skills x and y together works really well. It's not fair I've to use silver shards to kill vampires. It's not fair their class can do that and mine can't. Weapons aren't fair, staves aren't fair... dying isn't fair. Why do I keep dying when I just rush in mindlessly? That's not fair.

Honestly they should just grow a pair and tell some people to get over it, because so far every time people have flooded these forums to whine over something they've responded by caving in. And all that's going to do is encourage even more people to come in and whine about even smaller things, which lets be honest... they will probably change for them.

Weng

I'm afraid the designers' logic summarizes up as follows:

• Melee based sorcs get the crit surge heal, which uses magicka and heals them on crit hits.
• Magicka oriented sorcs shall use this questionable Dark Exchange skill, which uses stamina. What else do magicka based sorcs use stamiana for otherwise, right?
• Then there is this great healing pet, I will not consider this seriously.
• There is this Blood Magic passive for 5% health. It triggers once per spell and only if there's not yet an effect on the target. Enough is enough.

The problems I see with this apporach are:

• In pvp you have so many people with impenetrable gear, so that heal on crit does not work at all.
• A channeled heal will cause a drop in dps in pve for sure. And you will be easily interruptable in pvp.
• I don't know what I am doing wrong, but I never got any sustainable heal from the Blood Magic passive. And the Persistence passive even works against it.

Currently I play a melee oriented sorcerer and use Rally from the 2h skill line as my main heal (yes, I heal myself with a mace ...).
From my point of view they could get rid off crit surge completely and make dark exchange either a magicka or stamina based self heal like dragonknight's Dragon Blood. The current sorcerer mechanics are just too complicated to get it right.

Shunravi

frostbreeze wrote: »

Imo now that staves will scale from spell damage its irrational for surge(morphless) to add weapon damage! The class is called sorcerer ffs its meant to weild staves and magic.Sure u can go stamina build if u want but thats personal choice hence they should make surge give spell damage then be morphable to something that adds weapon damage and scale from stamina for all you stamina sorcs(srsly u made a sorc to go stamina?srsly?) and make add sp+heal to crit surge. Besides stamina builds will get a stamina based heal from the new alliance war skill theyre implementing so plz dont nerf us magica sorcs again and do the right thing here zos

Maybe I'm just an old fashioned TES gamer, but sorc doesn't mean wielding staves and magic to me. It means a heavily armored frontline/ bow summoner as the TES archetipe the online class is clearly based off of is.

Weng

Shunravi wrote: »

Maybe I'm just an old fashioned TES gamer, but sorc doesn't mean wielding staves and magic to me. It means a heavily armored frontline/ bow summoner as the TES archetipe the online class is clearly based off of is.

This dress and stick type of sorcerer comes from WoW and DAOC for example. A ranged class wearing light armor robes and wielding a staff.

The TES sorcerer is in fact a summoner in heavy armor. Oblivion has this lore as well: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer_(Oblivion). Even though you will find mages in TES lore, too.

I think in ESO they tried to combine all of these views, but it's a bit akward. A heavily armored summoner must choose sorcerer, because it is the only class with a summoning skill line. But many people want to have their WoW, DAOC sorcerer with light armor and staff.

If I recall correctly ZOS wanted to move more to the TES line again. This means the summon skill line for sorcerer stays and is buffed, the surge spell with weapon damage stays as well.

Shunravi

w3ng_vgeb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Maybe I'm just an old fashioned TES gamer, but sorc doesn't mean wielding staves and magic to me. It means a heavily armored frontline/ bow summoner as the TES archetipe the online class is clearly based off of is.

This dress and stick type of sorcerer comes from WoW and DAOC for example. A ranged class wearing light armor robes and wielding a staff.

The TES sorcerer is in fact a summoner in heavy armor. Oblivion has this lore as well: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer_(Oblivion). Even though you will find mages in TES lore, too.

I think in ESO they tried to combine all of these views, but it's a bit akward. A heavily armored summoner must choose sorcerer, because it is the only class with a summoning skill line. But many people want to have their WoW, DAOC sorcerer with light armor and staff.

If I recall correctly ZOS wanted to move more to the TES line again. This means the summon skill line for sorcerer stays and is buffed, the surge spell with weapon damage stays as well.

Exactly.

Everyone wants their sorcerer to be a certain way in regards to what the name represents in other media. Unfortunately, ZOS has a slightly different, more TES interpretation of the class. This is very apparent in the way they have been focusing their class changes.

As a general overview, the sorc class and skills are designed to be a conjurer with skills that complement/supplement the use of weapons. Hence all the complaints of no useful inherent class damage.

NordJitsu

There are only for classes in this game guys. It's pretty clear they were trying to make one for each archetype. The Sorc is the caster.

Your convoluted logic trying to say that isn't so doesn't fly.

And let's not forget that many of these Devs are from DAoC. The existence of the Dragon Knight class ought to show you that they are not going for TES purity in the classes.

Shunravi

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are only for classes in this game guys. It's pretty clear they were trying to make one for each archetype. The Sorc is the caster.

Your convoluted logic trying to say that isn't so doesn't fly.

And let's not forget that many of these Devs are from DAoC. The existence of the Dragon Knight class ought to show you that they are not going for TES purity in the classes.

Please explain to me exactly how, other that the name, a sorc is designed to be a caster. Especially compared to the other classes.

This has nothing to do with class purity. It has everything to do with what they are basing the design around.

So, please explain your logic that says sorc is designed as a caster class, and I will explain mine.

And I assume you are one of those people who thinks that nightblades are an exclusively stealth class. Well, I've got news for you buddy.

NordJitsu

Shunravi wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are only for classes in this game guys. It's pretty clear they were trying to make one for each archetype. The Sorc is the caster.

Your convoluted logic trying to say that isn't so doesn't fly.

And let's not forget that many of these Devs are from DAoC. The existence of the Dragon Knight class ought to show you that they are not going for TES purity in the classes.

Please explain to me exactly how, other that the name, a sorc is designed to be a caster. Especially compared to the other classes.

This has nothing to do with class purity. It has everything to do with what they are basing the design around.

So, please explain your logic that says sorc is designed as a caster class, and I will explain mine.

And I assume you are one of those people who thinks that nightblades are an exclusively stealth class. Well, I've got news for you buddy.

Let's see... They're the class that has Crystal Shards, Daedric curse, MAGE'S Fury, Lightning Pool, and skill that exchanges stamina for magicka.

They're class description says:

Sorcerers summon and control weather phenomenon: hurling lightning bolts and creating electrified fields, summoning tornadoes and impenetrable fog, and calling upon Daedric forces to summon Storm Atronachs and magical armor.

And then yes, there's the name. Because a developer would have to be truly idiotic to make a class named Sorcerer and NOT make it a viable caster. Especially when there are only 4 classes to choose from and none of the other fit this archetype at all.

Does that mean you have to be a caster? Of course not. It's an open class system.

But each class has a natural bias or tradition. NB is the rogue. DK is the tanky warrior. Templar is the healer paladin. It's classic fantasy stuff. Nothing confusing going on.

You can defy those archetypes, because freedom, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Edit: let's not forget that in addition to the name and the description, the default armor on the character select screen is Light Armor robes for this class. ZOS is clearly sending a certain message to new players that you somehow missed.

Shunravi

NordJitsu wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are only for classes in this game guys. It's pretty clear they were trying to make one for each archetype. The Sorc is the caster.

Your convoluted logic trying to say that isn't so doesn't fly.

And let's not forget that many of these Devs are from DAoC. The existence of the Dragon Knight class ought to show you that they are not going for TES purity in the classes.

Please explain to me exactly how, other that the name, a sorc is designed to be a caster. Especially compared to the other classes.

This has nothing to do with class purity. It has everything to do with what they are basing the design around.

So, please explain your logic that says sorc is designed as a caster class, and I will explain mine.

And I assume you are one of those people who thinks that nightblades are an exclusively stealth class. Well, I've got news for you buddy.

Let's see... They're the class that has Crystal Shards, Daedric curse, MAGE'S Fury, Lightning Pool, and skill that exchanges stamina for magicka.

They're class description says:

Sorcerers summon and control weather phenomenon: hurling lightning bolts and creating electrified fields, summoning tornadoes and impenetrable fog, and calling upon Daedric forces to summon Storm Atronachs and magical armor.

And then yes, there's the name. Because a developer would have to be truly idiotic to make a class named Sorcerer and NOT make it a viable caster. Especially when there are only 4 classes to choose from and none of the other fit this archetype at all.

Does that mean you have to be a caster? Of course not. It's an open class system.

But each class has a natural bias or tradition. NB is the rogue. DK is the tanky warrior. Templar is the healer paladin. It's classic fantasy stuff. Nothing confusing going on.

You can defy those archetypes, because freedom, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Edit: let's not forget that in addition to the name and the description, the default armor on the character select screen is Light Armor robes for this class. ZOS is clearly sending a certain message to new players that you somehow missed.

Alright, good points. And my post was more reactionary to yours than it should have been. I'm not saying sorcs should not be casters, I'm challenging your assesment that they are the 'caster class.' And I did structure my previous comments to get a rise and spark a heated discussion...

First argument;

Now, pretty much everything you listed has do do with names and descriptions, not actual designs and mechanics. Fine and all, but it doesn't actually say much about the design. Of course, my original argument was essentially the same. So

The current sorcerer description reads; 'Sorcerers can use conjuration and destruction spells to hurl lightning bolts and create shock fields, weild dark magic to snare and stun, and summon Daedric combat followers from Oblivion to assist them.'

So not to much different from yours. Maybe more specific, but moving on.

Lets look at the TES precedent that I am referencing and claiming they are basing the class off of. And specifically the points highlighted in the descriptions.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Sorcerer wrote:

Sorcerer

In-game Description: Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Intelligence, Endurance

Major Skills:

Enchant
Conjuration
Mysticism
Destruction
Alteration



Minor Skills:
Illusion
Medium Armor
Heavy Armor
Marksman
Short Blade

Spells:

Shield(Shield 5pts for 30sec on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60sec on self)
Bound Dagger (Bound Dagger for 60 sec on self)
Summon Ancestral Ghost (Summon Ancestral Ghost for 60sec on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30pts on touch)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150ft for 5sec on self)

Alright. You will notice; "Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments." So, still casters. But the thing is I was not originally arguing against them being casters. Just the method and use of these abilities. And honestly it was just a knee-jerk reaction to his assessment of the class and incredulity that someone would go a melee build.

Now, you may be thinking, "hey, your main and only v14 toon, according to your signature, is a nightblade! and yet you say; 'And I assume you are one of those people who thinks that nightblades are an exclusively stealth class. Well, I've got news for you buddy.' But if you are claiming that nightblade does more than stealth then you are not following the precedent of your class >>> http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes#Nightblade see??? why are you so adamant about sorcs following theirs?" Well, that's the thing... I'm not. I'm saying ZOS is.

When I chose nightblade, I didn't go in for the rouge stabby-stab because I wanted to play rouge (because I don't play a rouge). I did an objective comparison between classes and chose the one that had skills that were closest to what I wanted to play, because I absolutely DESPISE the implementation of classes in ESO. While previous games had classes, they were more like springboards to work off of, as you could use any weapon, skill, and spell in the game.

Second argument;

How exactly do the other classes 'not fit the archetype'? lets see how good o'l wikipedia defines a caster

wikipedia wrote:

A spell-caster is a character archetype in gaming with the ability (usually magical, but sometimes spiritual) to cast spells, based on the magic users of folklore. Spell-casters can take the form of sorcerers, wizards, warlocks and healers. Spell-casters usually are limited in the number and type of spells they can cast by an expendable resource, often called magic points, which generally regenerates with time. Often, these characters do not have direct methods of attack(or insignificant), and so rely on their special magical attacks and on other, more combative, game units to fend for them. Spell-casters generally have less health and are less tough than other units (for instance, the tank). Due to their high damage output but low damage resistance, they are sometimes colloquially referred to as glass cannons. They are also labelled as "squishy" by many game-players, due to the relative ease with which they can die due to low health.

So how exactly do DKs not make good (squishy) pyromages? Or nightblades not make good dark/blood mages? Or templars good healers and solar/holy mages? I guess I just don't understand how you can claim no other class can fit. Ah well...

Third argument;

So now I get to actual mechanics and design. So, this is really my interpretation, and it obviously differs from yours.

So lets look at available skills. There are three defensive abilities one is your standard shield. Two, however, grant armor. I would think armor would be more appreciated in a melee build... but whatever.

Surge grants weapon damage. Even if it were not for staves using weapon damage, I think its kinda odd that weapon power is whats boosted. Because, you know, spells are always associated with weapon power.

Pretty much the entire dark magic skill line consists of CC. Usefull at range certainly... More usefull when you are up close and personal imo.

Concept for dark exchange; if you are maxed in stamina and stamina regen, why not exchange a bit of it for majica. You have BE to gain range after all... (yea, very costly for that... but that's what i came up with.)

And then the Daedric Summoning line. Three summons, one being an ult. Pretty much the crux of my argument. And a delayed explosion curse. And two of the afore mentioned defensive skills. All packed conveniently together as if its saying, 'bind your armor, summon your pets, cast your curse, and then wail away with your weapon.' Yea, they are activated and thus require precious space on your bar. But still, that's what it feels like to me.

There isn't much that's actually spammable, other than mages fury. everything seems like its designed to be used in between weapon attacks, or to create and zone areas. There isn't much that screams 'caster' to me. Summoner, yes. Defensive and Zoning, yes. Casting not so much. But thats just me I guess...

Of course, I love arguing with strangers on the internet, otherwise I wouldn't be on forums. So, disagree? Agree? Hate my guts?

Gyudan

Questions:
- Should sorcerers get a great boost to spellcrafting when it's released?
- Where are the destro/resto saves in the previous ES games?
- How would you describe the current effectiveness of summons in the game?

olsborg

All buffs should last longer then they currently do, wish they would add like 5-10 seconds to all casted buffs in the game. Casting something that lasts 8 seconds is over before you really manage to do something to benefit that buff.