Vampires & the Justice System

MornaBaine

Robocles wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Their biggest issue is going to be the idea of making a PVE player PVP targetable, once the full system goes live. In theory, you could be crafting/banking/what have you... then have to go afk for some reason and come back to being PVP flagged because your stage changed.

I like Morna's ideas about swapping the stage 1 and stage 3 timers... that would be a tremendous boon.

We have to wait to see what they decide, though. Maybe on this they will take the whole range of possible outcomes into account before making a decision.

One can always hope, right?

Well supposedly the Justice System is going to be "Opt Out" so we may really be worried for nothing. Say you want to go craft for a couple hours, take a phone call and leave your computer... all you have to do is toggle "Justice System OFF" and you can progress all the way to Stage 4 and, just as it is now, no one will notice and it'll have NO effect on either PvP OR PvE. But personally, if that's really the way they are going to do it, I'm going to be really disappointed. I think it's important to have the PvP portion of the Justice system be voluntary... but I really feel it ought to just be a regular part of the game for PvE once it's in.

I will agree 100% with that. I don't mind the PVE side of it being in place at all times. I just don't want to come back to my toon flagged for every tool who just sits and waits to wtfpwn some unsuspecting noob just because I had to go check the grill.

Right? Yeah that would be super annoying. But really, there's no reason for the Justice System NOT to be enabled at all times on the PvE level. And if it is (as I hope) then they really WILL need to give players more control over what Stage their vampire is in. And after having considered what might literally be EVERY possible way to do that, I still think flipping the times of the Stages between 1 and 3 to be the best possible compromise that will make the largest number of people, (even both PvPers and RPers) happy.

Well... they could make the stage lengths actually make sense when compared to the game world time elapsed... but, well...

Yeah, that would be MY perfect world, wherein EACH Stage lasted a full 6 hour game day. But the only way this would NOT have the PvP community storming ZOS's offices with pitchforks and torches is if indeed they can toggle the PvE aspect of the Justice System OFF so that they can go about their town business without having to bother leaving Stage 4. And THAT would utterly negate my OTHER dream....of not seeing every town I go to crawling with Stage 4 vampires while NOBODY NOTICES.

ShadowHvo

MornaBaine wrote: »

I get where you are coming from, really, I promise. So let's examine some of this. Say that people DON'T know your vampire IS a vampire at Stage 4. I can actually buy that if I try to forget that bloodfiends, who look VERY like Stage 3 and 4 vampires are ubiquitous throughout the world and decimate entire regions on a regular basis. We'll go ahead and chalk that up to "because MMO." So, okay, MOST people don't know that a Stage 4 vampire is a vampire. But imagine you are a common townie going about your regular townie life and you see one of these "people" for the very first time. Dude, they LOOK like death! They look like plague ravaged corpses that are obviously only still walking because they just don't know they're dead yet! LOL I'm sorry, but if I am doing my Xmas shopping at the local mall (I don't, but let's just go with that) and I am suddenly confronted by a fellow shopper in the very last stages of the Black Plague (making cheerful resurgences at Third World countries even now) you can BET I am going to freak right the hell out! I will, at the very least, be getting my behind AWAY from them and dialing 911 for an ambulance! My reaction is NOT going to be, "Gosh Mister, you don't look so good. Maybe you should sit down? Can I get you a glass of water?" And I'm a fairly "cool under pressure" kind of person. I know PLENTY of people would, at the very least, flat out scream and run...at least after ascertaining that The Walking Dead was not filming at the mall that day. There's just absolutely no logical way this dreadful appearance does NOT draw strong reactions! Now, we're talking about this taking place in a world where, even if they think they've never met one, PEOPLE KNOW VAMPIRES EXIST. I may NEVER have actually SEEN a tiger. BUT I KNOW THEY EXIST. And if I happen to see one strolling loose through the mall one day I'm going to be pretty darned CONCERNED! In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm going to FLEE while screaming, "TIGER!" at the top of my lungs to warn my fellow mall goers. So I really have a hard time buying that in a world where people KNOW that vampires, werewolves and zombies all exist are going to take a look at a Stage 4 vampire and react with nothing more than polite concern.

Also, your comment about living off the blood of camel's is totally nonsensical. We know for a fact that vampires cannot prey on animals, that they DO, in fact, exist solely on the blood of men and mer. I don't care how enlightened you think you are (nor how many episodes of True Blood you have seen), NO ONE is going to react favorably towards a creature that uses them as a food source, often with fatal results. The awareness that some vampires take pains NOT to kill their prey or try to ONLY prey upon those whose removal from the gene pool is a public service is a RARE thing. And even IF people (despite not knowing enough about vampires to know a Stage 4 vampire is a vampire in the first place) DO know that SOME vampires are that way... the DEFAULT position is STILL going to be , "OH MY GOD! BURN IT!" for the VAST majority of people.

Lastly, I just don't buy that Stage 4 vampires just look like "sick" people. Because they don't. They look like MONSTERS. And NOBODY likes a monster. Even the enlightened King Emeric, friend to Ravenwatch, is smart enough to know this and tells his vampire friend to HIDE his condition. Why? Because he rightly understands that NOT doing so is going to get his friend killed.

Firstly:

also, it's was a joke, but there it is.

How do you know what a tiger looks like? Because we have photographs, videos and animal planet to show us. People in Tamriel do not, they have poorly painted ink images which barely resembles anyone. (Don't tell me you can see and know who that thief is on every wanted picture. If you can though, I'll give you a dollar, because that's pretty awesome.)

Let me give you another example, recently in Danish television we've had a new celebrety, a dude whos face was so monstrous that the kids screamed upon seeing him, and parents are disgusted by it. But does society kill him? Take your own guess, because it should be obvious. What do they do? They help him instead, throwing money at him so he can get enough money for the operation which can give him a new face.

Why do I say that? Because our society is similar to the one in Tamriel, what is it all the NPC's says in Skyrim? That our eyes looks hungry, our skin pale and we should seek a healer.

Again, ordinary people have no clue about how a vampire looks like, and I shall throw you my comparison picture from before:

Both stage 1 vampire characters, the redhaired woman is Imperial, the other Dunmer.

The Imperial woman on that picture gets told that she has a pale skin, her eyes looks hungry and that she should seek a healer. But instead, you want a girl like this:


to be killed on sight?

Hell, the skyrim stage 1 looks way more demonic than anything a vampire can look like in ESO. She is told to get a healer, because she looks hungry and pale, yet this woman, should get killed on sight, even though her condition would look like an Albino, or just extremely sick person?

No thanks, I would still rather have the guards kill mass murderers, big reputation thieves and the like, than waste their time on vampires who starve themselves.

EDIT:
Also, True Blood is the worst fairy glimmer I've ever seen, while it represents vampires better than Twillight, it's most certainly far from the best vampire movie/series I've watched.

Robocles

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Their biggest issue is going to be the idea of making a PVE player PVP targetable, once the full system goes live. In theory, you could be crafting/banking/what have you... then have to go afk for some reason and come back to being PVP flagged because your stage changed.

I like Morna's ideas about swapping the stage 1 and stage 3 timers... that would be a tremendous boon.

We have to wait to see what they decide, though. Maybe on this they will take the whole range of possible outcomes into account before making a decision.

One can always hope, right?

Well supposedly the Justice System is going to be "Opt Out" so we may really be worried for nothing. Say you want to go craft for a couple hours, take a phone call and leave your computer... all you have to do is toggle "Justice System OFF" and you can progress all the way to Stage 4 and, just as it is now, no one will notice and it'll have NO effect on either PvP OR PvE. But personally, if that's really the way they are going to do it, I'm going to be really disappointed. I think it's important to have the PvP portion of the Justice system be voluntary... but I really feel it ought to just be a regular part of the game for PvE once it's in.

I will agree 100% with that. I don't mind the PVE side of it being in place at all times. I just don't want to come back to my toon flagged for every tool who just sits and waits to wtfpwn some unsuspecting noob just because I had to go check the grill.

Right? Yeah that would be super annoying. But really, there's no reason for the Justice System NOT to be enabled at all times on the PvE level. And if it is (as I hope) then they really WILL need to give players more control over what Stage their vampire is in. And after having considered what might literally be EVERY possible way to do that, I still think flipping the times of the Stages between 1 and 3 to be the best possible compromise that will make the largest number of people, (even both PvPers and RPers) happy.

Well... they could make the stage lengths actually make sense when compared to the game world time elapsed... but, well...

Yeah, that would be MY perfect world, wherein EACH Stage lasted a full 6 hour game day. But the only way this would NOT have the PvP community storming ZOS's offices with pitchforks and torches is if indeed they can toggle the PvE aspect of the Justice System OFF so that they can go about their town business without having to bother leaving Stage 4. And THAT would utterly negate my OTHER dream....of not seeing every town I go to crawling with Stage 4 vampires while NOBODY NOTICES.

Well... to be fair... as vampires they would probably forgo the torches.

Lokryn

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

So it's been confirmed that vampires in Stage 4 will be considered "criminals" once the Justice System is implemented.

Confirmed where? And when? We're still working out the details of how the Justice System will impact werewolf and vampire players.

I'm actually pretty concerned about this response considering we're so close to the Justice system release. I know I've seen plenty of posts and questions related to Vampires/Werewolves and the Justice System. Yet, there has been very little word from ZOS (only thing that I've seen is Paul Sage mentioning it one time in ESO Live). I remember watching ESO Live when Scott Nixon was a guest giving details on the Justice System and doing Q & A and the hosts were taking questions from twitch. I saw many questions in twitch chat on vampires in the justice system but Scott was never asked about it.

Because of the holiday season, the work schedule is going to be strained and then you have the Justice System coming in January. I just hope this is not something that was considered last minute and then the implementation is rushed.

Ultimately, I think ZOS may be missing an opportunity with Vampires/Werewolves in that they are the only "AAA" mmo who has them (afaik) and yet their implementation is somewhat lackluster. Since World of Darkness was cancelled, ZOS has a golden opportunity to really flesh out the Vampire/Werewolf/Vampire Hunter theme and add some great content around it to attract more players. Vampires/Werewolves have always been a staple in the Elder Scrolls universe. It would be awesome if one of their expansions was focused on it.

ShadowHvo

Lokryn wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

So it's been confirmed that vampires in Stage 4 will be considered "criminals" once the Justice System is implemented.

Confirmed where? And when? We're still working out the details of how the Justice System will impact werewolf and vampire players.

I'm actually pretty concerned about this response considering we're so close to the Justice system release. I know I've seen plenty of posts and questions related to Vampires/Werewolves and the Justice System. Yet, there has been very little word from ZOS (only thing that I've seen is Paul Sage mentioning it one time in ESO Live). I remember watching ESO Live when Scott Nixon was a guest giving details on the Justice System and doing Q & A and the hosts were taking questions from twitch. I saw many questions in twitch chat on vampires in the justice system but Scott was never asked about it.

Because of the holiday season, the work schedule is going to be strained and then you have the Justice System coming in January. I just hope this is not something that was considered last minute and then the implementation is rushed.

Ultimately, I think ZOS may be missing an opportunity with Vampires/Werewolves in that they are the only "AAA" mmo who has them (afaik) and yet their implementation is somewhat lackluster. Since World of Darkness was cancelled, ZOS has a golden opportunity to really flesh out the Vampire/Werewolf/Vampire Hunter theme and add some great content around it to attract more players. Vampires/Werewolves have always be a staple in the Elder Scrolls universe. It would be awesome if one of their expansions was focused on it.

God yes!

At least all we can hope for is some awesome new strains of Lycanthropy and Vampirism, so people can keep their noxiphilic sanguivoria the way their like it, while giving more options to everybody.

I would still love a vampire who would burn like a bonefire in the sun, even though it probably will never come.

timidobserver

ShadowHvo wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

So it's been confirmed that vampires in Stage 4 will be considered "criminals" once the Justice System is implemented.

Confirmed where? And when? We're still working out the details of how the Justice System will impact werewolf and vampire players.

My suggestion would be to do something very problematically easy like making vampires gain heat faster. 50% faster in Stage 3 and 75% faster in Stage 4.

Honestly this very thing is the best solution in my mind. It still doesn't force us who likes our roleplaying characters to be nasty vampires with masks covering their faces, to go on rampages throughout towns to clear them out before RP to avoid getting attacked under RP. But does make it more diffcult for them to steal stuff and get away with it.

Personally I will dislike the whole notion of KOS on stage four vampires, unless if they implement a system whereby the vampire can hide their stage by wearing a full mask / helmet. But since that is not very likely, I think your very ideá of having an increased heat / bounty rate would be the best solution.

Yup, the primary benefit is that it should be too easy to break.
If (vampire)
{
heat * x
}

Easy to implement and it drives home that point that vampires should be careful with drawing attention to themselves in town while still allowing them to participate in the system.

MornaBaine

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

So it's been confirmed that vampires in Stage 4 will be considered "criminals" once the Justice System is implemented.

Confirmed where? And when? We're still working out the details of how the Justice System will impact werewolf and vampire players.

I'm actually pretty concerned about this response considering we're so close to the Justice system release. I know I've seen plenty of posts and questions related to Vampires/Werewolves and the Justice System. Yet, there has been very little word from ZOS (only thing that I've seen is Paul Sage mentioning it one time in ESO Live). I remember watching ESO Live when Scott Nixon was a guest giving details on the Justice System and doing Q & A and the hosts were taking questions from twitch. I saw many questions in twitch chat on vampires in the justice system but Scott was never asked about it.

Because of the holiday season, the work schedule is going to be strained and then you have the Justice System coming in January. I just hope this is not something that was considered last minute and then the implementation is rushed.

Ultimately, I think ZOS may be missing an opportunity with Vampires/Werewolves in that they are the only "AAA" mmo who has them (afaik) and yet their implementation is somewhat lackluster. Since World of Darkness was cancelled, ZOS has a golden opportunity to really flesh out the Vampire/Werewolf/Vampire Hunter theme and add some great content around it to attract more players. Vampires/Werewolves have always be a staple in the Elder Scrolls universe. It would be awesome if one of their expansions was focused on it.

God yes!

At least all we can hope for is some awesome new strains of Lycanthropy and Vampirism, so people can keep their noxiphilic sanguivoria the way their like it, while giving more options to everybody.

I would still love a vampire who would burn like a bonefire in the sun, even though it probably will never come.

Tell me about it! We;re forever being told that there is a multiplicity of vampire strains and yet...we only ever get access to one of them? Bah! And I would really like to see shapeshifter type weres, like ones that turn into full wolves, ones that become bears or tigers.

I would love to see some of the other strains of vampirism implemented though! Which makes me think of a new post.... oh dear, I'm completely incurable, aren't I? LOL

MornaBaine

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Firstly:

also, it's was a joke, but there it is.

Dear gods above! How the Hades did that even happen???? We're not even supposed to be able to attack animals to feed on them! Color me horrified!

ShadowHvo wrote: »

How do you know what a tiger looks like? Because we have photographs, videos and animal planet to show us. People in Tamriel do not, they have poorly painted ink images which barely resembles anyone. (Don't tell me you can see and know who that thief is on every wanted picture. If you can though, I'll give you a dollar, because that's pretty awesome.)

Actually, judging by the paintings one sees throughout the game hanging on walls, they clearly have reached at least a Renaissance era level of art ability. So rendering things realistically is certainly possible and even common practice. Enough people have traveled to areas where great cats are common that it is not unlikely that there are already several beastiary volumes on the market, ones that probably even portray tigers very accurately, along with, granted, some pretty wild INACCURACIES about exotic flora and fauna. My bet is that there are ALSO compendiums of monsters, some of which will have tackled, with a fair amount of accuracy, the looks of things like bloodfiends. Would EVERYBODY have seen these accurate portrayals and have committed them to memory? Of course not. But in a world where these creatures actually exist there would logically be a much higher degree of familiarity with them than exists in the modern world we know. Just KNOWING THEY EXIST is going to make people more wary and quicker to jump to conclusions about "sick looking" people in the first place.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Let me give you another example, recently in Danish television we've had a new celebrety, a dude whos face was so monstrous that the kids screamed upon seeing him, and parents are disgusted by it. But does society kill him? Take your own guess, because it should be obvious. What do they do? They help him instead, throwing money at him so he can get enough money for the operation which can give him a new face.

Why do I say that? Because our society is similar to the one in Tamriel, what is it all the NPC's says in Skyrim? That our eyes looks hungry, our skin pale and we should seek a healer.

I obviously have a VERY different interpretation of the society of Tamriel than you do. I see it as being vastly different from our own society. It doesn't even have jails. EVERY crime potentially gets the death penalty. Despite having advanced art and technology/magic they are very much a medieval-esque society, fearful, judgemental, and, because they KNOW MONSTERS EXIST, would be even more inclined to jump the gun and attack those who look different...especially if they also looked scary. Your example of the unfortunate Danish man above... yeah that guy would likely receive a VERY different reception in Tamriel than he has in our modern world.

The dialogue in Skyrim? yeah they say those things because they DON'T LIKE how that person looks and they recognize there's something "off" about them and they don't like it. But I'll get into the argument of the vampire appearance of Skyrim vs ESO in a moment.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Again, ordinary people have no clue about how a vampire looks like, and I shall throw you my comparison picture from before:

Both stage 1 vampire characters, the redhaired woman is Imperial, the other Dunmer.

The Imperial woman on that picture gets told that she has a pale skin, her eyes looks hungry and that she should seek a healer. But instead, you want a girl like this:


to be killed on sight?

Hell, the skyrim stage 1 looks way more demonic than anything a vampire can look like in ESO. She is told to get a healer, because she looks hungry and pale, yet this woman, should get killed on sight, even though her condition would look like an Albino, or just extremely sick person?

First of all, move in closer on that Stage 4 ESO vamp. She looks WAY worse on close inspection than she does in the picture you show. I actually have known an albino woman for many years. Trust me, she looks NOTHING like that Stage 4 vamp. Secondly, the Skyrim vampire DOESN'T look all that bad to me. ASIDE from her unusual eyes she can pretty easily pass as a normal mortal. I'm not quite sure how we aren't at all seeing the same thign here, but that certainly seems to be the case.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

No thanks, I would still rather have the guards kill mass murderers, big reputation thieves and the like, than waste their time on vampires who starve themselves.

Yet what you are failing to recognize (which surprises me coming from a fellow roleplayer and someone who has obviously given a lot of thought to vampires) is that Stage 4 does NOT represent a benevolent being who would rather be hungry and ugly than to harm other people. It is an unfortunate game mechanic that allows this and nothing more. You should NOT BE ABLE TO starve your vampire past a certain point. Since the Stages progress in half hour increments a Stage 4 vamp should be able to go 2 HOURS without feeding. Then what happens? Logically, one of two things.

1. They snap, leave player control, and attack the very first NPC they come across.
2. They collapse and turn to ash.

Logically speaking, no matter WHAT you are, you just don't get to say, "Imma starve!" and think that, hey, nothing bad will happen! Having guards attack Stage 4 vampires FINALLY at least puts some sort of disadvantage to being a starving vampire...which is long overdue.

ShadowHvo wrote: »

EDIT:
Also, True Blood is the worst fairy glimmer I've ever seen, while it represents vampires better than Twillight, it's most certainly far from the best vampire movie/series I've watched.

I'm actually kind of fond of True Blood, far fetched as it is. But I'm not playing a True Blood MMO. And there's the rub.

EDIT TO ADD: Also, until Dawnguard, Stage 4 vampires WERE attacked in previous TES games. But if you had Dawnguard then you were only attacked if in vampire lord form, so rather like werewolves. However, sadly, we don't HAVE a vampire lord form Ultimate.

ShadowHvo

MornaBaine wrote: »

Actually, judging by the paintings one sees throughout the game hanging on walls, they clearly have reached at least a Renaissance era level of art ability. So rendering things realistically is certainly possible and even common practice. Enough people have traveled to areas where great cats are common that it is not unlikely that there are already several beastiary volumes on the market, ones that probably even portray tigers very accurately, along with, granted, some pretty wild INACCURACIES about exotic flora and fauna. My bet is that there are ALSO compendiums of monsters, some of which will have tackled, with a fair amount of accuracy, the looks of things like bloodfiends. Would EVERYBODY have seen these accurate portrayals and have committed them to memory? Of course not. But in a world where these creatures actually exist there would logically be a much higher degree of familiarity with them than exists in the modern world we know. Just KNOWING THEY EXIST is going to make people more wary and quicker to jump to conclusions about "sick looking" people in the first place.

While I'm inclined to agree, the problem however is still there: We have books which explains it, but none of those books contains paintings, or even image of said bloodfiends in any shape or form, besides the ones the players imagenation allows them.

MornaBaine wrote: »

I obviously have a VERY different interpretation of the society of Tamriel than you do. I see it as being vastly different from our own society. It doesn't even have jails. EVERY crime potentially gets the death penalty. Despite having advanced art and technology/magic they are very much a medieval-esque society, fearful, judgemental, and, because they KNOW MONSTERS EXIST, would be even more inclined to jump the gun and attack those who look different...especially if they also looked scary. Your example of the unfortunate Danish man above... yeah that guy would likely receive a VERY different reception in Tamriel than he has in our modern world.

Again I must disagree, as we know even the nasties characters are allowed to live without being harassed by the public in tamriel, and I heavily doubt Elder Scrolls Online are going to create a beauty feature which judges the apperance of the character and then decides whenever said character should be looked upon as a monster, a normal person or a beautiful goddess. (There you have your aprils fools joke, Zenimax!)

MornaBaine wrote: »

First of all, move in closer on that Stage 4 ESO vamp. She looks WAY worse on close inspection than she does in the picture you show. I actually have known an albino woman for many years. Trust me, she looks NOTHING like that Stage 4 vamp. Secondly, the Skyrim vampire DOESN'T look all that bad to me. ASIDE from her unusual eyes she can pretty easily pass as a normal mortal. I'm not quite sure how we aren't at all seeing the same thign here, but that certainly seems to be the case.

You're not the only one with an albino friend, and just like with vampires, they differ in appearances. Besides the black veins, if my friend had bloodshot eyes from staying awake for too long and give him some thick black eyeshadow, he would look like a stage 4 vampires.



Here is my comparison picture from my own beloved character, he was designed to be a vampire from the very creation of him. I myself, would still be way more scared if that Imperial woman with those hellish orange eyes, and unusual brown facial appearance which doesn't seem to coperate with the rest of her body were standing in a dark ally. But I guess that's a matter of opinion. however, I will still claim that ESO's vampirism looks much more like an actual sick person, than the ones in Skyrim.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Yet what you are failing to recognize (which surprises me coming from a fellow roleplayer and someone who has obviously given a lot of thought to vampires) is that Stage 4 does NOT represent a benevolent being who would rather be hungry and ugly than to harm other people. It is an unfortunate game mechanic that allows this and nothing more. You should NOT BE ABLE TO starve your vampire past a certain point. Since the Stages progress in half hour increments a Stage 4 vamp should be able to go 2 HOURS without feeding. Then what happens? Logically, one of two things.

1. They snap, leave player control, and attack the very first NPC they come across.
2. They collapse and turn to ash.

Logically speaking, no matter WHAT you are, you just don't get to say, "Imma starve!" and think that, hey, nothing bad will happen! Having guards attack Stage 4 vampires FINALLY at least puts some sort of disadvantage to being a starving vampire...which is long overdue.

Honestly this is a bit ironic, since both your points are false. If a vampire does not feed they fall into a coma, they do not go beserk, and they do not die, they simply fall into a coma. We know that the person will die if cured in the coma, but we do not know what happens if the person is given blood, my own suggestion would be that they simply awake because they have recieved new substance to make their undead body running again, but that is pure theorycrafting.

The whole beserk thing might be something you've catched from Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, whereby the vampires do go beserk if the vampire goes on without enough blood. (Under any circumstances that's a real epic game though, and I myself believe the whole vampires going beserk and their inner beast taking over upon not feeding is cooler and awesome. But it is sadly not a thing in the elder scrolls.) That's proven by Rona Hassildor.

The matter of fact however is still there, that the citizens in tamriel does not know how we look like as vampires, and I still firmly believe in, that the only reason we as players knows these characters to be vampires, is because we know that only vampires can look that way, and we have no extremely sick people.

In morrowind any type of vampire was attacked by almost everybody, espically Towns guards would attack if you came too close or interacted with them, and so would brave citizens too. In Oblivion only stage 4 would get attacked upon sight. And lastely, in Skyrim only vampire lords got attacked on sight after the Dawnguard Expansion.

My best bet, after having played a tiny bit of Morrowind lately, would perhaps be for the guards to turn a blind eye towards vampires, and then only attack them if the vampire performed a criminal activity, or decided to interact with said guy. Since "They won't like that behavior". The problem would under any circumstances be there if they made vampires KOS, as it would ruin tons and tons of players Roleplay, as well as general gameplay experiences. Just imagen standing in a town, having an awesome long roleplay which takes hours, your character is having nice conversation with a couple of friends and then BAM, face down in the dirt with 10 dudes swarming around you and trying to farm you for Enforcer experience or what PK's are now going to reward. That is a big potential griefing situation, since these players could quite literally murder you, and have several other dudes waiting at the wayshrine for you to respawn, and upon respawning they would just attack you immediately and kill you again, without you being able to teleport or even go away to feed.

The griefing potential is simply waaaaay too big if you ask me, and as said earlier, it would ruin many people's roleplay, which is why I'm strongly against anything being KOS besides in Cyrodiil. Unless of course the player goes on murder spree, and ravages through houses, but their criminal status will be removed upon death, which a vampires wouldn't in stage 4, if stage 4 outright labels the player as criminal.

We would just get situations similar to this, where people are unable to play their characters because of camping, and in ESO it would turn out even worse, since we're on one big mega server, and we can not decide to resurrect elsewhere besides our current postion with a soulgem, or the wayshrine.

In the worst case scenerio, your friends might not even be able to assist, because said players are marked as Enforcers, and you are marked as a criminal outlaw simply for being a vampire in stage 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7FC-h0Fb8

ShadowHvo

We naturally have the nameless bloodfiends in ESO, Who by what we've been told by Majorns son, are caused due to the lack of blood. Though, I'm more inclined to believe Verandis's little thing had a bigger play in it. Since by the looks, is all the same type with the exact same abilities all over Tamriel. Since Oblivion proved to us that the vampire goes into a coma if not keeping themselves fed. However... It could potentially be different from bloodline to bloodline!!! Yay theorycrafting...

MornaBaine

ShadowHvo wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Actually, judging by the paintings one sees throughout the game hanging on walls, they clearly have reached at least a Renaissance era level of art ability. So rendering things realistically is certainly possible and even common practice. Enough people have traveled to areas where great cats are common that it is not unlikely that there are already several beastiary volumes on the market, ones that probably even portray tigers very accurately, along with, granted, some pretty wild INACCURACIES about exotic flora and fauna. My bet is that there are ALSO compendiums of monsters, some of which will have tackled, with a fair amount of accuracy, the looks of things like bloodfiends. Would EVERYBODY have seen these accurate portrayals and have committed them to memory? Of course not. But in a world where these creatures actually exist there would logically be a much higher degree of familiarity with them than exists in the modern world we know. Just KNOWING THEY EXIST is going to make people more wary and quicker to jump to conclusions about "sick looking" people in the first place.

While I'm inclined to agree, the problem however is still there: We have books which explains it, but none of those books contains paintings, or even image of said bloodfiends in any shape or form, besides the ones the players imagenation allows them.

MornaBaine wrote: »

I obviously have a VERY different interpretation of the society of Tamriel than you do. I see it as being vastly different from our own society. It doesn't even have jails. EVERY crime potentially gets the death penalty. Despite having advanced art and technology/magic they are very much a medieval-esque society, fearful, judgemental, and, because they KNOW MONSTERS EXIST, would be even more inclined to jump the gun and attack those who look different...especially if they also looked scary. Your example of the unfortunate Danish man above... yeah that guy would likely receive a VERY different reception in Tamriel than he has in our modern world.

Again I must disagree, as we know even the nasties characters are allowed to live without being harassed by the public in tamriel, and I heavily doubt Elder Scrolls Online are going to create a beauty feature which judges the apperance of the character and then decides whenever said character should be looked upon as a monster, a normal person or a beautiful goddess. (There you have your aprils fools joke, Zenimax!)

MornaBaine wrote: »

First of all, move in closer on that Stage 4 ESO vamp. She looks WAY worse on close inspection than she does in the picture you show. I actually have known an albino woman for many years. Trust me, she looks NOTHING like that Stage 4 vamp. Secondly, the Skyrim vampire DOESN'T look all that bad to me. ASIDE from her unusual eyes she can pretty easily pass as a normal mortal. I'm not quite sure how we aren't at all seeing the same thign here, but that certainly seems to be the case.

You're not the only one with an albino friend, and just like with vampires, they differ in appearances. Besides the black veins, if my friend had bloodshot eyes from staying awake for too long and give him some thick black eyeshadow, he would look like a stage 4 vampires.



Here is my comparison picture from my own beloved character, he was designed to be a vampire from the very creation of him. I myself, would still be way more scared if that Imperial woman with those hellish orange eyes, and unusual brown facial appearance which doesn't seem to coperate with the rest of her body were standing in a dark ally. But I guess that's a matter of opinion. however, I will still claim that ESO's vampirism looks much more like an actual sick person, than the ones in Skyrim.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Yet what you are failing to recognize (which surprises me coming from a fellow roleplayer and someone who has obviously given a lot of thought to vampires) is that Stage 4 does NOT represent a benevolent being who would rather be hungry and ugly than to harm other people. It is an unfortunate game mechanic that allows this and nothing more. You should NOT BE ABLE TO starve your vampire past a certain point. Since the Stages progress in half hour increments a Stage 4 vamp should be able to go 2 HOURS without feeding. Then what happens? Logically, one of two things.

1. They snap, leave player control, and attack the very first NPC they come across.
2. They collapse and turn to ash.

Logically speaking, no matter WHAT you are, you just don't get to say, "Imma starve!" and think that, hey, nothing bad will happen! Having guards attack Stage 4 vampires FINALLY at least puts some sort of disadvantage to being a starving vampire...which is long overdue.

Honestly this is a bit ironic, since both your points are false. If a vampire does not feed they fall into a coma, they do not go beserk, and they do not die, they simply fall into a coma. We know that the person will die if cured in the coma, but we do not know what happens if the person is given blood, my own suggestion would be that they simply awake because they have recieved new substance to make their undead body running again, but that is pure theorycrafting.

The whole beserk thing might be something you've catched from Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, whereby the vampires do go beserk if the vampire goes on without enough blood. (Under any circumstances that's a real epic game though, and I myself believe the whole vampires going beserk and their inner beast taking over upon not feeding is cooler and awesome. But it is sadly not a thing in the elder scrolls.) That's proven by Rona Hassildor.

The matter of fact however is still there, that the citizens in tamriel does not know how we look like as vampires, and I still firmly believe in, that the only reason we as players knows these characters to be vampires, is because we know that only vampires can look that way, and we have no extremely sick people.

In morrowind any type of vampire was attacked by almost everybody, espically Towns guards would attack if you came too close or interacted with them, and so would brave citizens too. In Oblivion only stage 4 would get attacked upon sight. And lastely, in Skyrim only vampire lords got attacked on sight after the Dawnguard Expansion.

My best bet, after having played a tiny bit of Morrowind lately, would perhaps be for the guards to turn a blind eye towards vampires, and then only attack them if the vampire performed a criminal activity, or decided to interact with said guy. Since "They won't like that behavior". The problem would under any circumstances be there if they made vampires KOS, as it would ruin tons and tons of players Roleplay, as well as general gameplay experiences. Just imagen standing in a town, having an awesome long roleplay which takes hours, your character is having nice conversation with a couple of friends and then BAM, face down in the dirt with 10 dudes swarming around you and trying to farm you for Enforcer experience or what PK's are now going to reward. That is a big potential griefing situation, since these players could quite literally murder you, and have several other dudes waiting at the wayshrine for you to respawn, and upon respawning they would just attack you immediately and kill you again, without you being able to teleport or even go away to feed.

The griefing potential is simply waaaaay too big if you ask me, and as said earlier, it would ruin many people's roleplay, which is why I'm strongly against anything being KOS besides in Cyrodiil. Unless of course the player goes on murder spree, and ravages through houses, but their criminal status will be removed upon death, which a vampires wouldn't in stage 4, if stage 4 outright labels the player as criminal.

We would just get situations similar to this, where people are unable to play their characters because of camping, and in ESO it would turn out even worse, since we're on one big mega server, and we can not decide to resurrect elsewhere besides our current postion with a soulgem, or the wayshrine.

In the worst case scenerio, your friends might not even be able to assist, because said players are marked as Enforcers, and you are marked as a criminal outlaw simply for being a vampire in stage 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR7FC-h0Fb8

Okay, first, that video is freaking epic! Thank you! LOL LOL LOL
Now that I'm done dying...back to our equally epic debate! LOL
First, you DO realize that the Justice System IS Opt Out, right? No one is going to be forced to engage in PvP against their will. So PvP griefing is not going to be an issue. Thankfully. What is less clear at present is if the ENTIRE Justice System is going to be Opt Out. From what I've heard on the last Livesteam though, it SOUNDS as if it will be. So this entire thing may be completely moot and those who wish to remain as Stage 4 vampires without any repercussions will simply be able to Opt Out of the Justice System and nothing will have changed for them. I HOPE that is not the case and that the PvE portion of the Justice System will simply become a standard part of regular gameplay. But it may not. We could REALLY use some Dev clarification here!

I am not entirely sure what you mean by this, "Again I must disagree, as we know even the nasties characters are allowed to live without being harassed by the public in tamriel, and I heavily doubt Elder Scrolls Online are going to create a beauty feature which judges the apperance of the character and then decides whenever said character should be looked upon as a monster, a normal person or a beautiful goddess." Could you please elaborate? To what "nasties" do you refer? I'll defer further debate on that point until I hear from you.

You also say, "You're not the only one with an albino friend, and just like with vampires, they differ in appearances. Besides the black veins, if my friend had bloodshot eyes from staying awake for too long and give him some thick black eyeshadow, he would look like a stage 4 vampires."

Ummm... but your albino friend DOESN'T have black veins standing out all over their body. That IS a pretty big difference! LOL Plus, the texture of the skin itself, at least on Bretons and Imperials, is markedly different as well. Also, Stage 4 eyes are NOT "bloodshot." The whites have become BLACK and the eye itself has gone zombie-white. That is neither human nor mer and simply CANNOT be chalked up to being sick. It might not look out of place on a CORPSE...but that is kind of my point.

And you are right, I did leave out the coma option. I'll claim lack of coffee at that point as I certainly should have included it in the likely outcomes of vampire starvation. It's probably even the one that makes the most sense for those who have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. But the larger point is that SOMETHING adverse SHOULD happen to a Stage 4 vampire after a certain point. Part of the difficulty that SHOULD be part of playing a vampire is having to MAINTAIN them. Should humans and mer HAVE to eat food to not lose Health? Yeah, I think so. But as blood drinking is a central theme in vampirism I think it's even MORE important to MAKE THEM do so. This goes along with the"paying for power" principal.

And I still have to disagree with you on whether or not the "citizens of Tamriel" know what vampires look like. While we can agree that not ALL of them would I still have to point out that vampires and bloodfiends (especially the latter) are sufficiently common that a significant portion of the population WOULD have a pretty good idea of what they looked like, either from seeing them firsthand or having them described by others in secondhand accounts, stories and tales told by bards, and in books...some of which it IS fair to assume might be decently illustrated. Now most folks would not be able to tell the difference between a Stage 4 vampire and a bloodfiend... but that is far more likely to go against the vampire and be added to the prejudices against them that already exist. MOST people are not going to care that you are "really" a vampire and not a bloodfiend...they are going to treat both the same: BADLY.

MornaBaine

ShadowHvo wrote: »

We naturally have the nameless bloodfiends in ESO, Who by what we've been told by Majorns son, are caused due to the lack of blood. Though, I'm more inclined to believe Verandis's little thing had a bigger play in it. Since by the looks, is all the same type with the exact same abilities all over Tamriel. Since Oblivion proved to us that the vampire goes into a coma if not keeping themselves fed. However... It could potentially be different from bloodline to bloodline!!! Yay theorycrafting...

There we are certainly agreed.

naatokb14_ESO

If they make the justice system "optional" I am going to be VERY disappointed.

"Oh you're new in town? Well let me fill you in on a few details. Murder is against the law. R@p3, theft, arson, assault, fraud, impersonating nobility or Crown officials are all against the law, as is being found to be a blood-sucking undead monster or beastly, maneating werewolf. There are some other crimes too, but as a general rule, the above are what matter."

"Oh! I almost fogot to mention. Yeah. It is completely optional. If you display your token of disobedience, you can commit all those crimes in this city, and we of the city watch aren't allowed to do a thing to stop you or keep you from doing them again. So you'd better behave, okay?!"

*facepalm*

I'm so done with obvious MMORPGs being turned into FPS games by those who want all the min/max, game mechanics bennies to something, but refuse to accept ANY social/criminal justice consequences based on the games LORE.

Oh. I forgot. All us roleplayers and others who love the lore of these games and the emersion of the world are just weird.

ShadowHvo

MornaBaine wrote: »

Okay, first, that video is freaking epic! Thank you! LOL LOL LOL
Now that I'm done dying...back to our equally epic debate! LOL
First, you DO realize that the Justice System IS Opt Out, right? No one is going to be forced to engage in PvP against their will. So PvP griefing is not going to be an issue. Thankfully. What is less clear at present is if the ENTIRE Justice System is going to be Opt Out. From what I've heard on the last Livesteam though, it SOUNDS as if it will be. So this entire thing may be completely moot and those who wish to remain as Stage 4 vampires without any repercussions will simply be able to Opt Out of the Justice System and nothing will have changed for them. I HOPE that is not the case and that the PvE portion of the Justice System will simply become a standard part of regular gameplay. But it may not. We could REALLY use some Dev clarification here!

Admittetly I had completely forgotton that at the time of reading the post. But as far as my memory serves me, then the opt in and out was for the entirety of the system. I believe he said that, if you wanted to run around town, throwing fireballs everywhere like usually, you just had to opt out, then you wouldn't be able to hit and kill people.

Then another problem comes however, since if Stage 4's are considered criminal, would the person then automatically be forced into Justice content, or can the person remain without. Since by what we've been told, you can not perform criminal acts while opted out.

MornaBaine wrote: »

I am not entirely sure what you mean by this, "Again I must disagree, as we know even the nasties characters are allowed to live without being harassed by the public in tamriel, and I heavily doubt Elder Scrolls Online are going to create a beauty feature which judges the apperance of the character and then decides whenever said character should be looked upon as a monster, a normal person or a beautiful goddess." Could you please elaborate? To what "nasties" do you refer? I'll defer further debate on that point until I hear from you.

Well, it was meant fairly straigh forward, since we as creators of our characters can make our characters way more monstrous looking than any vampire who are builded for being pretty. I personally made an Orismer where even his mother would be ashamed of her child, lol. That dude though will not get attacked no matter what, even though he appears more like a monster than the stage 4 vampire.

MornaBaine wrote: »

You also say, "You're not the only one with an albino friend, and just like with vampires, they differ in appearances. Besides the black veins, if my friend had bloodshot eyes from staying awake for too long and give him some thick black eyeshadow, he would look like a stage 4 vampires."

Ummm... but your albino friend DOESN'T have black veins standing out all over their body. That IS a pretty big difference! LOL Plus, the texture of the skin itself, at least on Bretons and Imperials, is markedly different as well. Also, Stage 4 eyes are NOT "bloodshot." The whites have become BLACK and the eye itself has gone zombie-white. That is neither human nor mer and simply CANNOT be chalked up to being sick. It might not look out of place on a CORPSE...but that is kind of my point.

My albino friend does not walk around showing off his entire body, neither should the stage 4 vampire in question. If you put on clothes you can't even see the thick black veins, unless of course one goes for the skimpy armors, but if it's normal, fully covered we can't see a thing, at least my own character doesn't appear with any in his face, only upon the rest of his body.

As for the eyes, I'm fairly certain I've seen options in the character creation for white eyes, so combine that with having bloodshot eyes is fairly doable. And with a quick search quite a lot of the real albino images has white eyes too, so having a vampire stage 4 be mistaken for a Albino shouldn't be a far stretch the slightest, unless the vampire decided to undress and lay on the beach trying to get some colour on their skin.

MornaBaine wrote: »

And you are right, I did leave out the coma option. I'll claim lack of coffee at that point as I certainly should have included it in the likely outcomes of vampire starvation. It's probably even the one that makes the most sense for those who have Noxiphilic Sanguivoria. But the larger point is that SOMETHING adverse SHOULD happen to a Stage 4 vampire after a certain point. Part of the difficulty that SHOULD be part of playing a vampire is having to MAINTAIN them. Should humans and mer HAVE to eat food to not lose Health? Yeah, I think so. But as blood drinking is a central theme in vampirism I think it's even MORE important to MAKE THEM do so. This goes along with the"paying for power" principal.

<Dreaming of ESO getting a DayZ like hunger system...> With the joke aside, I think there should be some play in drinking blood. However the fact, funnily enough is that the NS becomes more powerful the more they go on without blood, yet their health regenerations is decreased by a whole lot. It's kinda the payoff with vampires in ESO, "Okay you can go safety with health, or go all in offensive with decreased cost for Drain, Mist and Batswarm." Personally it could be nice to have the fire weakness increase with each stage, just like health. So instead of flat out 50% it would be 100% at stage 4. I believe another dude suggested that, so kuddos to the guy, because that was a brilliant idea. That would make many remain in the lower stages, since 100% is much tougher to deal with than 50. Perhaps even have stage 1 only take 25%, then 2 - 50% and 3 - 75%, and at last 4 - 100%

From mechanicwise however, NS is the weakest of all bloodlines I've seen in the games, even though it's the first ever bloodline.. But that could naturally be with their insanely good pay-off with immunity to the sun, oh oh.. and MMO balancing! >.>

MornaBaine wrote: »

And I still have to disagree with you on whether or not the "citizens of Tamriel" know what vampires look like. While we can agree that not ALL of them would I still have to point out that vampires and bloodfiends (especially the latter) are sufficiently common that a significant portion of the population WOULD have a pretty good idea of what they looked like, either from seeing them firsthand or having them described by others in secondhand accounts, stories and tales told by bards, and in books...some of which it IS fair to assume might be decently illustrated. Now most folks would not be able to tell the difference between a Stage 4 vampire and a bloodfiend... but that is far more likely to go against the vampire and be added to the prejudices against them that already exist. MOST people are not going to care that you are "really" a vampire and not a bloodfiend...they are going to treat both the same: BADLY.

Well, I'm certain these monster hunters believe I'm sick.

(Chatboxlol)

ShadowHvo

naatokb14_ESO wrote: »

If they make the justice system "optional" I am going to be VERY disappointed.

"Oh you're new in town? Well let me fill you in on a few details. Murder is against the law. R@p3, theft, arson, assault, fraud, impersonating nobility or Crown officials are all against the law, as is being found to be a blood-sucking undead monster or beastly, maneating werewolf. There are some other crimes too, but as a general rule, the above are what matter."

"Oh! I almost fogot to mention. Yeah. It is completely optional. If you display your token of disobedience, you can commit all those crimes in this city, and we of the city watch aren't allowed to do a thing to stop you or keep you from doing them again. So you'd better behave, okay?!"

*facepalm*

I'm so done with obvious MMORPGs being turned into FPS games by those who want all the min/max, game mechanics bennies to something, but refuse to accept ANY social/criminal justice consequences based on the games LORE.

Oh. I forgot. All us roleplayers and others who love the lore of these games and the emersion of the world are just weird.

Actually no, if you opt out you can not perform crimes at all, that's what they said under the previous livestream.

Aka you can not steal nor murder when not partaking in the justice system.

ShadowHvo

Double post again.. for some strange reason.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

In a way, I wish the Justice System was not opt out for those who are openly discussing how many people they have drained or devoured (WW) in the tavern. It is those vampires and werewolves that I wish to kill.

MornaBaine

So I was really disappointed to see that they refused to answer any questions about how the Justice System will effect vampires and werewolves on the last Livestream. After the Dev comment on this thread I'm worried that they still don't KNOW what they are going to do regarding vampires and werewolves.

ADarklore

Had to Necro this thread because it is pretty bizarre if you ask me. So advocates of this would make Vampires in Stage 4 criminals... simply because they are NOT feeding... and yet, if they are stage 1-3 and are actively feeding on people, that is OK. ::eyeroll:: The logic that abounds in these comments are just, well, illogical.

They act as if every vampire is out of control, that they have absolutely no self-control... but as long as they are feeding on people and not stage 4, then that is not a crime. Instead of, say, making it a crime WHEN a crime is committed. After all, we have people in our own world who are 'at risk of repeat offending' but do we keep them locked up forever? NO. We give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually commit a crime.

The "Justice System" that these people are advocating is not a 'justice' system, but an 'injustice' system- "guilty until proven innocent". I think that most of these supporters are not 'concerned about justice', but are in fact, players who have had their rear-ends spanked by stage 4 vampires in PvP and are using this as a method to try and nerf them.

Zorrashi

ADarklore wrote: »

Had to Necro this thread because it is pretty bizarre if you ask me. So advocates of this would make Vampires in Stage 4 criminals... simply because they are NOT feeding... and yet, if they are stage 1-3 and are actively feeding on people, that is OK. ::eyeroll:: The logic that abounds in these comments are just, well, illogical.

Well yes, stage 4 vampires are obviously starved and effectively become more diseased in appearance than a well-fed vampire. Their appearance alone would presumably give away their vampire identity--which is a crime in and of itself. Vampires are not accepted in most Tamrielic societies.
Vampires in stages 1-3 are more well-fed, and thus maintain a more human image. As a result they are more effective at blending in within human society. They are well-fed not just because they fed, but they fed without being caught. If a vampire is ever actually caught feeding they should be KOS for that too (their identity is busted).

ADarklore wrote: »

They act as if every vampire is out of control, that they have absolutely no self-control... but as long as they are feeding on people and not stage 4, then that is not a crime. Instead of, say, making it a crime WHEN a crime is committed. After all, we have people in our own world who are 'at risk of repeat offending' but do we keep them locked up forever? NO. We give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually commit a crime.

Vampires are not like humans, for all intents and purposes common knowledge in-game states that vampires will need to harm humans to survive. Their mere existence is viewed as detrimental to mortal safety. Most stories also hold that most common vampires (like the thralls we see in-game) are in-fact beings with no self-control due to their blood lust that is innately a part of them. Only a powerful or exceptionally well-fed few maintain sufficient self-control. But the human blood required for such feats is usually very high.
If your very survival depended on the drinking/harm of mortals, your existence will logically be made illegal, taboo and downright written down as a public menace that should be exterminated. Vampires are like zombies with a disease, only worse.

ADarklore wrote: »

The "Justice System" that these people are advocating is not a 'justice' system, but an 'injustice' system- "guilty until proven innocent". I think that most of these supporters are not 'concerned about justice', but are in fact, players who have had their rear-ends spanked by stage 4 vampires in PvP and are using this as a method to try and nerf them.

Again, if you are a vampire, then by all mortal accounts you are guilty. Of what you may ask? Being a public menace. Most don't even consider vampires applicable to common mortal law precisely because they are not mortal themselves.

The whole point of being well-fed and hiding among humans is to not be discovered as a vampire.If you are obviously a vampire you should not be so easily permitted in mortal society.

Chaos_Deception

Being a Vampire is going to turn into an Annoyance more than a Benifit.

What advantage do Vampires have over Mortals:
+ Extra Skill Lines.
- Slowed Healing.
- Weakness to Fire.

The Fact that Guards are Imortal, and the Vampire Stages have such short timers. I can Imagine that this will have a Serious Negative Effect on the Vampire Populiation.

Unless ofcourse that Vampirism is Reworked and some worthwhile Incentives to being a Vampire are Added.

Zorrashi

Chaos_Deception wrote: »

Being a Vampire is going to turn into an Annoyance more than a Benifit.

What advantage do Vampires have over Mortals:
+ Extra Skill Lines.
- Slowed Healing.
- Weakness to Fire.

The Fact that Guards are Imortal, and the Vampire Stages have such short timers. I can Imagine that this will have a Serious Negative Effect on the Vampire Populiation.

Unless ofcourse that Vampirism is Reworked and some worthwhile Incentives to being a Vampire are Added.

Personally my ideal vampire would be high benefits with very costly negatives as well. It shouldn't just be an unprecedented benefit but at the same time it shouldn't be a flavorful gimp. However becoming and maintaining vampire status should be something that is a careful conscious decision and not the default go-to for game 'success'.

With their current implementation, imo the drawbacks (slowed healing/fire weakness) are barely sufficient to counter the skill line benefits. But if vampires were to be implemented to the justice system (or be given any world reactiveness overall) then I believe the times between feedings should be elongated, the differences between those stages to be more servere, methods of concealment (i.e illusion spell or vials of blood for feeding) implemented, and a general rebalance of vampire abilities.

ADarklore

Well then, they might as well just remove the entire vampire and werewolf lines from the game if they're ever planning to enforce such a system. Because giving benefits to being a stage 4 vampire that encourage them to remain stage 4 and also eliminating most of the side effects... "slowed healing" you say... well yes, 75% slower health regen, but then the devs offer passives for damage mitigation up to 33% below 50% health... along with abilities which can shield for 75% damage along with Draining an enemy for 10% health recovery per second, along with a 21% reduction in those same vampire abilities. Yeah, sounds to me like they are at a huge disadvantage at stage 4... let alone the fact they are reducing fire damage in the next update to 25%- making the whole "weakness to fire" pretty moot.

Further, because this is a GAME... players need access to cities for quests, banks, etc... demanding that they FEED on people in order to access those things is bogus.

The point is, they put these abilities into the GAME and gave them specific perks and with those perks come their own negatives which players have to figure out how to offset- such as slowed healing and weakness to fire. Therefore, because of these inherent weaknesses, vampires shouldn't have another barrier to overcome in this GAME simply because some players want to push their own ideas of RPG to try to make the game more difficult for others to play how they want.

Players choose to be vampires or werewolves to add more fun and variation to their gameplay, they don't do it to suffer additional penalties outside of their natural weaknesses.

Artfuldodger

I do not mind if NPC's comment on the fact my Character is a Vampire, what I would hate is being attacked by them every time I went into or near a city. I like going to the cities to craft/sell and fix armour, if there is going to be a major forfeit for having a WW or Vamp for me it will spoil the game. I do not want to have to keep logging out and back in to use an alt, besides I wont be able to he's a WW lol.

I really hope the maker's do not introduce the attacking by an NPC.

GreySix

MornaBaine wrote: »

So it's been confirmed that vampires in Stage 4 will be considered "criminals" once the Justice System is implemented. This, of course, means they will be accosted by guards.

Outstanding! Can hardly wait to see it in action.

Zorrashi

ADarklore wrote: »

[...]

Further, because this is a GAME... players need access to cities for quests, banks, etc... demanding that they FEED on people in order to access those things is bogus.

Which is why, presumably, there would be ways to circumvent the usual system in order to access such things. Like with the initial justice system where they implemented outlaw's refuge for players with a bounty, they can easily add covens or sanctuaries to serve a similar purpose. Or vampires can feed to resume their mortal charade.
Or even better, add either spell(s) or a consumable that gives a the similar effect of feeding but only for a limited time.

ADarklore wrote: »

The point is, they put these abilities into the GAME and gave them specific perks and with those perks come their own negatives which players have to figure out how to offset- such as slowed healing and weakness to fire.

Right all well and good, the vampire implementation was actually relativly fine during its initial release and subsequent tweaks. But with the addition of the justice system where player actions are finally being taken into account, does it not make sense to extend it to player conditions? They are, like thievery/murder, player actions too.

As a GAME it is imperative that an MMO such as this one demonstrates a certain amount of evolution in its mechanics to upkeep with progress (both its own (justice system) and the progress of others).

ADarklore wrote: »

...Therefore, because of these inherent weaknesses, vampires shouldn't have another barrier to overcome in this GAME simply because some players want to push their own ideas of RPG to try to make the game more difficult for others to play how they want.

Justice System implementation is not merely an obstacle it is also a game feature--one that can be either appreciated or hated by any player simply due to preference. At any rate, we don't want consequences for vampires simply for the sake of it (and certainly not just for the sake of making it harder), we want it to maintain consistency with the in-game world given its own lore and mechanics that increasingly suggest player decisions should hold weight. It is to add a level of depth that any a great variety of GAMES may/do strive for in an effort to maintain their quality gameplay. A GAME is more than just combat. Like every other game, this game has things like setting, atmosphere, quality of life stuff content and combat on its pallet. All aspects must experience their fair share of advancement if the game wishes to advance.

ADarklore wrote: »

Players choose to be vampires or werewolves to add more fun and variation to their gameplay, they don't do it to suffer additional penalties outside of their natural weaknesses.

You are correct, which is precisely why I respectfully request that vampires hold actual weight in the in-game world. Vampires as they are now, imo, are little more than glorified power ups with circumventable weaknesses. It would be fine on its own too if being a vampire actually meant something to the in game populous. But even Ravenwatch is oblivious to my affliction.

Its not like we are asking for vampires to be completely unchanged when/if these justice system implementations are set in place. Naturally there are going to have be methods of circumventing the system, as well as rebalancing the power of vampire abilities (and probably adding new ones). A new situation calls for new cons and pros. They can make vampires stronger overall for all I care if there are social repercussions for it.

Tholian1

I had no idea this was being considered. I am currently playing a vampire and would love for this to happen. As it is now, my character only feeds for mostly cosmetic reasons. There is no feeling of desperation to feed like a vampire would experience.

Bring it on.

Artfuldodger

ADarklore wrote: »

Well then, they might as well just remove the entire vampire and werewolf lines from the game if they're ever planning to enforce such a system. Because giving benefits to being a stage 4 vampire that encourage them to remain stage 4 and also eliminating most of the side effects... "slowed healing" you say... well yes, 75% slower health regen, but then the devs offer passives for damage mitigation up to 33% below 50% health... along with abilities which can shield for 75% damage along with Draining an enemy for 10% health recovery per second, along with a 21% reduction in those same vampire abilities. Yeah, sounds to me like they are at a huge disadvantage at stage 4... let alone the fact they are reducing fire damage in the next update to 25%- making the whole "weakness to fire" pretty moot.

Further, because this is a GAME... players need access to cities for quests, banks, etc... demanding that they FEED on people in order to access those things is bogus.

The point is, they put these abilities into the GAME and gave them specific perks and with those perks come their own negatives which players have to figure out how to offset- such as slowed healing and weakness to fire. Therefore, because of these inherent weaknesses, vampires shouldn't have another barrier to overcome in this GAME simply because some players want to push their own ideas of RPG to try to make the game more difficult for others to play how they want.

Players choose to be vampires or werewolves to add more fun and variation to their gameplay, they don't do it to suffer additional penalties outside of their natural weaknesses.

Very well said, agree with you.

Tholian1

ADarklore wrote: »

Well then, they might as well just remove the entire vampire and werewolf lines from the game if they're ever planning to enforce such a system. Because giving benefits to being a stage 4 vampire that encourage them to remain stage 4 and also eliminating most of the side effects... "slowed healing" you say... well yes, 75% slower health regen, but then the devs offer passives for damage mitigation up to 33% below 50% health... along with abilities which can shield for 75% damage along with Draining an enemy for 10% health recovery per second, along with a 21% reduction in those same vampire abilities. Yeah, sounds to me like they are at a huge disadvantage at stage 4... let alone the fact they are reducing fire damage in the next update to 25%- making the whole "weakness to fire" pretty moot.

Further, because this is a GAME... players need access to cities for quests, banks, etc... demanding that they FEED on people in order to access those things is bogus.

The point is, they put these abilities into the GAME and gave them specific perks and with those perks come their own negatives which players have to figure out how to offset- such as slowed healing and weakness to fire. Therefore, because of these inherent weaknesses, vampires shouldn't have another barrier to overcome in this GAME simply because some players want to push their own ideas of RPG to try to make the game more difficult for others to play how they want.

Players choose to be vampires or werewolves to add more fun and variation to their gameplay, they don't do it to suffer additional penalties outside of their natural weaknesses.

I agree with the part I bolded. I would assume the outlaws refuge in every city would be a safe haven for stage 4 vampires, so the only thing that would need to be added would be the crafting, enchanting, alchemy tables and guild bank to the refuge. Every outlaws refuge has a back door I think. And it isn't like there is a shortage of enemy NPCs to feed off of.

For those worried about the PvP zones, maybe the feeding timer could be suspended for those places. Feed and then go do your PvP.

MornaBaine

Ah one of my many lovely old vampire threads. SUPPOSEDLY Stage 4 vampires and transformed werewolves WERE supposed to be affected by the Justice System. This began with the now departed Paul Sage saying in a Live Stream that guards "would not like" Stage 4 vampires and transformed werewolves. Devs came in on this thread to say that nothing had been confirmed but that they "were working" on exactly how the Justice System WOULD affect vampires and werewolves.

AND THEN THEY PROMPTLY FORGOT ALL ABOUT IT.