Levling system is broken
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eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭For the record, grinding certain delves and Spellscar in Craglorn is almost as quick exp as the old boss grind.
After much QQ about the ridiculous VR zone exp I went to Craglorn on my NB alt. Progressed from VR4-14 in about a week, with only a few hours grind a day.
So really, nothing has actually changed. Craglorn is still Grindlorn. Only difference is that you can do a lot of grinding solo or duo now, instead of being in 12+ man groups beating on bosses. All you need is a decent AoE build.
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Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OrangeTheCat wrote: »
You didn't read carefully.
About pvp (which is where I have been, mostly), I said "effective". The fact is that easily over 90% of the people in pvp are VR 14 - beneficiaries of the previous system. Those of us who are not are hobbled in our ability to catch up. ZOS made this mess, not us. We should not be made to suffer the consequences while we wait 3 (probably more) months for the CS.
Spellscar is not all that great. At least compared to what we had. Besides, ZOS has made it clear they don't want grinds. If they come and make a gesture (like restoring crag grinds) that indicates grinding is OK, then fine.
I actually did, you said "there is no other way to earn XP(and to some extent gold) other than questing";) That much is not true.
I used to be very biased against grinds but I changed my mind. I still think it's sad that some people just choose to skip all the story they put so much work in but that's up to people. Also, story is only fun the first time you play through it, so grinding should stay, if only for alts.
ZOS has been catering to players complaining, though often delayed. So many people want grinds that they'll probably stay. ^^0 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I would say because of the upcoming champion system. If they can get rid of grinding, and make all forms of play equal in gaining champion points (including pvp) then this whole concept of "I need to be max level to compete" will be gone and players can do what they want and still feel like they are advancing.
I totally agree. But in the mean time? Meaning the next 3+ months? All I've been saying is restore it to what it was while we wait for CS.0 -
bedlom✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Great. But why should your view be imposed on the rest of us? Why can't we have the fast grind at the same time you go and "develop" your character? [/quote]
If you had it you're way, ESO would be a hub game like DCUO.
Lots of instances and repetitive grinds with very little of what actually makes a great ESO game, thank god you're not working on the game.0 -
Lord Xanhorn✭✭✭✭We talk about this game as if the current style of questing is fun. IMO it isnt. This is why people get burnt out on it so fast. If you really want questing to be fun, make us use our brains. The icons over people's heads and icons on the map and the icons on what to click is just tedious. This is why I loved Morrowind and thought Skyrim was meh. The hand holding in questing is just ridiculous. Either make this an RPG or make it an action game, This middle of the road approach just leaves people on both ends of the spectrum feeling unfulfilled.I'm kind of a small deal!1
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kongkim✭✭✭✭✭ESO have the best leveling in a mmo i have tried. i enjoy the quests and the TES world. when i got to max level i startet up a new.
So don't say its all about endgame. its not.
Edit: after reading all your posts here. It more or less sounds like the game simply not if something fore you.Edited by kongkim on December 8, 2014 4:33PM0 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭I disagree. I love mmo's for their story, quests and levelling. I like to explore the world and save some people while doing so. I have no want or need to finish the content so I can do pvp or the same raid every day.
As well, if you enjoyed the content, explored, and didn't race through the quests I imagine you would have no issues with levels. With my vr I consistently hit the next level before heading to the next zone.
Also love the doing the story and all those things involved with it, the first time. But then I want to get to max level
But once at max Level I want some thing to do, currently this game is lacking in that regard.
I would PVP, but it's more fun banging your head off the wall currently.1 -
Chelos✭✭✭✭✭OrangeTheCat wrote: »Great. But why should your view be imposed on the rest of us? Why can't we have the fast grind at the same time you go and "develop" your character?
This goes both ways, why Impose your ideas?- Ich bin nicht merkwürdig ich bin eine limitierte Auflage!
- ███████
- I'm not weird I'm limited edition!
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Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personally i can't give a flying **** in the story, i just want endgame content ( if its fun, and it's not ). I hate to level it is the most boring *** in the MMO's, but i take it as its part of the game style. I only play the PvP as its the only thing of value in the game for me.
//cheers
Sorry ESO writers, the stories are cool but this player doesn't care, so maybe you should delete everything and make all players start at VR14.
[/sarcasm]
Maybe you should play WoW, they have an insta-lvl90 thingy, it seems to be right up your alley. ESO's quests are very nice and xp shouldn't change at all imo. It's all balanced now.
Wololo.0 -
Sinbaar✭✭✭✭I enjoyed questing very much - gave me the feeling of actually BEING there..
- Though, i leveld from v12 to v14 just with grinding. .worked out for me. When i started grinding in Carglorn i needed 3 hours to make 2 Levels - after the boss nerf. Don't know, where the crying comes from..Mitgründer der Allianz Bosriel!
<<<Herolde des Friedens Kriegsherr>>>
<<<RONIN>>>0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have no interest in the endgame or destination of any MMO, I am only interested in the stories and quests that make up the journey, and for which the levelling process is a critical and enjoyable part, as is building my own character along the way rather than following some FOTM template.
I really don't know why some people are determined to reach the endgame quickly, they only ever moan as soon as they get there!3 -
Nihil✭✭✭OrangeTheCat wrote: »
I totally agree. But in the mean time? Meaning the next 3+ months? All I've been saying is restore it to what it was while we wait for CS.
Stage three of the champion system is actually coming out next major update. So a little over a month away ( I am assuming release date in Jan). It is also wise for them to start the process now so they can obtain data before it hits live. If there is a method of leveling that is substantially higher then what they want or perceive it should be, then they can tweak it before they release the system (when we are still subject to a cap and won't cause as much imbalances).
There are some fast ways to level still, although might not be as fast as the old grind (personally didn't do it, and only grinding spellscar to level skills).0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For $99.00 you can purchase all achievements and VR14 top gear. /sarcasim
Why buy a game you knew had ESO style questing and then not play it?
There isn't enough end game for that anyway.0 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It seems like every Developer of MMO think that the leveling from 1-Max is the funniest part in the hole game. And then now it can't be fun enough so we make it even harder to level that will make ppl stay in the game longer.
BEEEEEP WROOOONG !!!!
Leveling may be part of the mmo as it is now but its the end game that lure the gamers not the actual leveling. Leveling as i see it is a part of the game to learn the character and maybe to explore the world but not to make it so slow that is nearly impossible to level.
If you don't have good end game content the people will leave eventually because the game is boring. ( True story )
Another issue is the places were now the ppl been powerleveling got nerfed, for those who don't like to questing it have to be an alternative way. It is not up to you as a developer to decide what path the player will take, your place is to give us the players the alternative ways to level, earn gold etc. Not nerfing every spot that was good for something in the game of the task that he/she may choose. This will surely kill the game more and more for every time you remove something that was good.
Solution :
1. Leveling shall not take 20 hour per level but rather 2 hour per level because its the end game that counts nothing else.
2. Make some good grind spots for gold, and crafting resources so ppl can have specific goals and be able to accomplish it in a reasonable game time.
3. There is also ppl that like to solo and it should be some end game stuff for them as well.
Personally i can't give a flying **** in the story, i just want endgame content ( if its fun, and it's not ). I hate to level it is the most boring *** in the MMO's, but i take it as its part of the game style. I only play the PvP as its the only thing of value in the game for me.
//cheers
Hmm,
Someone is new to MMOs and only knows WOW.
Thank you for letting us all know that ESO is the wrong game for you. I wish you good luck in your search of WOW 2.0.1 -
AaronMB✭✭✭1) I rather enjoy the questing, killing of monsters, and discovery of all things discoverable along the way.
2) I level (or gain levels) just fine.
3) It's the end-game content that I am/was not at all in a hurry for.
4) Grinding is quite alive and well - just gotta know where and how.Edited by AaronMB on December 8, 2014 5:49PM0 -
firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I would say because of the upcoming champion system. If they can get rid of grinding, and make all forms of play equal in gaining champion points (including pvp) then this whole concept of "I need to be max level to compete" will be gone and players can do what they want and still feel like they are advancing.
I have to disagree with this.
The champion system is not the fix, if anything it is only going to make the problem worse. The reason people want to grind to max level for PvP is so they are not at a disadvantage in terms of equipment or abilities. There will be some discrepancies, but most characters will be roughly equal by VR14. Doing so only makes sense, if you're going to go into a competitive arena, you want to be on a relatively equal footing. Going into Cyrodiil at level 10 is like playing soccer with your shoe laces tied together. You can do it, but it won't be much fun.
Zeni has replaced the current system, which takes long enough, with a system that will take over 12 years to reach max level, assuming you treat this game as a full time job and put 40 hours a week into it. The rational is that the benefits are provided on a regressive scale, meaning that the benefits become smaller and smaller as you get higher and higher level. But the benefits still have to be tangible, even at higher levels (more champion points), otherwise the champion system is a complete waste of time.
Either way you cut it, they're taking a system that many people have complained about (the long VR grind) and making it worse. They've added 25,000 hours of character progression to the game without adding 25,000 hours of playable content. This is a poorly timed step to make, they should have added more PvP options to the game (dueling or small scale skirmishes), or created dungeons with dynamic layouts / content (the dungeon maps and mobs are pseudo randomly generated and unique each time). This way they would have playable content to last for 12 years, instead of 12 years of progression with not enough content.
So, I agree with the OP. The leveling system is broke, Zeni is making it worse, the current leveling options are worse than grinding bosses and mobs, and the game is increasingly becoming less fun to play.
Edited by firstdecan on December 8, 2014 6:37PM0 -
Volla✭✭✭
BEEEEEP WROOOONG !!!!
This is luckily your opinion.
If it were for me leveling is way to fast. I love the development of a character, I enjoy playing with the options.
I completely abhore grinding and doing end-content again and again and again..
If I wanted to do factory work I'd do that.
I've left other MMO behind as there was nothing but end-content and grinding just a few quests (wich, compared to some in this game, didn't even deserve the name quest)
Develop a character come at the the very end, fix tip top gear etc, work on skills and so on. All before is just a waste of time.0 -
Volla✭✭✭I would say because of the upcoming champion system. If they can get rid of grinding, and make all forms of play equal in gaining champion points (including pvp) then this whole concept of "I need to be max level to compete" will be gone and players can do what they want and still feel like they are advancing.[/quote]
I feel grinding will always be apart of the MMO worlds but they removed all good grinding sport one by one. i can hardly work out a good way to earn money quickly if i want. Im full crafter in all ways 8 traits, Enchanter vr14, Alchemy, cooking max... i still feel that all other have the same because it so easy to level all those skill so almost no one need others services anymore lite in the beginning, and that means that its even harder to make the gold needed to buy certain gear thats so expensive.
But i think if they instead of working against the community they should embrace ppl's ideas of finding certain spots for leveling, grinding gold etc. maybe even make a place were its good to just do those thing.
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Volla✭✭✭ESO have the best leveling in a mmo i have tried. i enjoy the quests and the TES world. when i got to max level i startet up a new.
So don't say its all about endgame. its not.
Edit: after reading all your posts here. It more or less sounds like the game simply not if something fore you.
sounds like you should play morrowind instead of waste your money here :P0 -
Volla✭✭✭Sorry for picking on ppl but if you never played the end game in any mmo and just quit because you made the game because you max level? that just so hilarious. there is no end in mmo... thats the whole point.0
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OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
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This goes both ways, why Impose your ideas?
I am advocating supporting both. So no, it is not as one sided as you imply.0 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have no interest in the endgame or destination of any MMO, I am only interested in the stories and quests that make up the journey, and for which the levelling process is a critical and enjoyable part, as is building my own character along the way rather than following some FOTM template.
I really don't know why some people are determined to reach the endgame quickly, they only ever moan as soon as they get there!
Not all people who want to get to end game use FOTM templates; I don't. Not all moan about endgame; I haven't. I did all the VR questing on my first VR character. It is onerous to do it again on my "alt" (which is now my "main"). I know the CS will remedy this (at least in theory, we'll see) but that is months away (I read February). Why not support both means of leveling while we wait?Edited by OrangeTheCat on December 8, 2014 6:42PM0 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
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Stage three of the champion system is actually coming out next major update. So a little over a month away ( I am assuming release date in Jan). It is also wise for them to start the process now so they can obtain data before it hits live. If there is a method of leveling that is substantially higher then what they want or perceive it should be, then they can tweak it before they release the system (when we are still subject to a cap and won't cause as much imbalances).
There are some fast ways to level still, although might not be as fast as the old grind (personally didn't do it, and only grinding spellscar to level skills).
Good point!0 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
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then why play mmo? its all about endgame. then i don't get it why you even bother to play a mmo...
No it's not. It's all about having fun, and different people have different ways of doing that in an MMO and you are no more entitled to your play style than they are to theirs.
As others have pointed out, with the upcoming Champion System coming in with Update 6 (at least the biggest change in it, we still get to keep our vet ranks for now), ZOS needs to make sure that all play styles will yield an equivalent number of champion points per hours played.
So if you would like to get them by grinding, please go ahead. Others will want to get them by questing, yet others by PvPing. Nobody is wrong and everybody should be rewarded for their effort at a similar rate.
I'm not sure what gear you are trying to buy, but if you want to make money off looting mobs, there are a number of public dungeons, regular dungeons or dungeons in Cyrodiil that will give you a good quantity of loot.The Moot Councillor0 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Snip
As others have pointed out, with the upcoming Champion System coming in with Update 6 (at least the biggest change in it, we still get to keep our vet ranks for now), ZOS needs to make sure that all play styles will yield an equivalent number of champion points per hours played.
So if you would like to get them by grinding, please go ahead. Others will want to get them by questing, yet others by PvPing. Nobody is wrong and everybody should be rewarded for their effort at a similar rate.
Snip
I don't disagree with you. But, if the CS is all about making "sure that all play styles will yield an equivalent number of champion points per hours played", then why not remove XP altogether (after level 50 that is) and just award a champion point every X hours regardless of what you actually do during those hours?
I am being a bit facetious here. but still...Edited by OrangeTheCat on December 8, 2014 6:57PM0 -
Nihil✭✭✭OrangeTheCat wrote: »
I don't disagree with you. But, if the CS is all about making "sure that all play styles will yield an equivalent number of champion points per hours played", then why not remove XP altogether (after level 50 that is) and just award a champion point every X hours regardless of what you actually do during those hours?
I am being a bit facetious here. but still...
As they probably want you to still work for the CP, players can easily find ways to manipulate systems like that. There might be other aspects to consider too like if they wanted too implement an area where you got good gear, they might also want to have a decrease in CP gain to balance it out versus the other areas then.Edited by Nihil on December 8, 2014 10:20PM0 -
Nihil✭✭✭firstdecan wrote: »
I have to disagree with this.
The champion system is not the fix, if anything it is only going to make the problem worse. The reason people want to grind to max level for PvP is so they are not at a disadvantage in terms of equipment or abilities. There will be some discrepancies, but most characters will be roughly equal by VR14. Doing so only makes sense, if you're going to go into a competitive arena, you want to be on a relatively equal footing. Going into Cyrodiil at level 10 is like playing soccer with your shoe laces tied together. You can do it, but it won't be much fun.
Zeni has replaced the current system, which takes long enough, with a system that will take over 12 years to reach max level, assuming you treat this game as a full time job and put 40 hours a week into it. The rational is that the benefits are provided on a regressive scale, meaning that the benefits become smaller and smaller as you get higher and higher level. But the benefits still have to be tangible, even at higher levels (more champion points), otherwise the champion system is a complete waste of time.
Either way you cut it, they're taking a system that many people have complained about (the long VR grind) and making it worse. They've added 25,000 hours of character progression to the game without adding 25,000 hours of playable content. This is a poorly timed step to make, they should have added more PvP options to the game (dueling or small scale skirmishes), or created dungeons with dynamic layouts / content (the dungeon maps and mobs are pseudo randomly generated and unique each time). This way they would have playable content to last for 12 years, instead of 12 years of progression with not enough content.
So, I agree with the OP. The leveling system is broke, Zeni is making it worse, the current leveling options are worse than grinding bosses and mobs, and the game is increasingly becoming less fun to play.
I think this train of thinking is what a lot of people have been getting stuck in. Yes, if you go in at lvl 10 you will get slaughter, no ands if or buts (all though they can still provide help in sieges just not as much in the front line/damage area). But the difference between VR 5 and VR 10 wouldn't be that drastic.
We have gotten accustomed to maxing out then playing the game, where we want every little bonus possible before we attempt actually playing how we want (I am at fault with this at times too), but once you get your skills leveled up, and descent gear the difference between level is small in comparison to player skill/organization/how big your zerg is. There were games before where you didn't need to be max level to compete, yet you had to hit a level threshold to do well, but after that it just gave you slight advantages that could easily be overcome.
They would literally have to give players VR 14 max characters to fight in PVP to truly appease the crowd that this train of thinking targets. Doing this players will still get board of the system and leave. Their is no best way to do it.0 -
kongkim✭✭✭✭✭
sounds like you should play morrowind instead of waste your money here :P
Yah that was a good game. But this is the new TES game and i play it like that as much as i can.
I do like the mmo part and have played ALOT of other mmo and endgame. But making its sound like endgame is all what its about is simply not right fore many people.0
