The Elder Scrolls Online

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• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 2, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 3, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

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  • TehMagnus
    TehMagnus
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    Beesting wrote: »
    Kraven wrote: »
    Quick question. How many would notice if instead of sending every bit of your gold it sent 5g every time you opened your inventory? Or 10g once per day? 100g every time you switched characters?

    Damn now I want to make an add on.

    I have actually been thinking for a while this is happening for real.. Like a what happened to all those millions i made? It's not like i spent all my money on my GF like in real life...

    You where drunk and gave them to me, don't you remember? :D
    smacx250 wrote: »
    Robocles wrote: »
    magnusnet wrote: »
    AlexDougherty wrote: »
    magnusnet wrote: »
    Sindala wrote: »
    pppontus wrote: »
    Sindala wrote: »
    They have a disclaimer stating you use addons at your own risk. They WONT give you your gold back as it wasn't anything to do with them or their game.

    Well, they did. So you can stop presenting lies as facts.

    I seriously doubt that and wont believe any different until a Dev posts that they did return gold due to a piece of 3rd party software.

    It's not software. Please stop talking of things you don't understand >_<

    I hate to break this to you, but apps are software.
    They are programmes, and as such fall under software.

    Anything to do with computers fails into either hardware (it has a physical existance) or Software (it's a programme).

    Addons are not apps. It's files of text that you add in a folder and that are executed by the software (aka the game). If your addon files where compiled into executable code then it would be software. This is not the case since "addons" (in this game) are instructions/commands that are read and executed by a precompiled software (or at least part of it: the API). <= This is why they can't harm your PC, at least not with the API limitations (thankfully).

    Saying addons (edit: in this game) are software is like saying text formated into an XML or CSV document is software.

    It's code executed by a runtime... still software.

    Read here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software

    and here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)

    Now, is an ESO add-on software?

    Edit: Posted in reference to all the quotes - not necessarily the last one!

    http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2286552/difference-between-a-script-and-a-program

    Should add this last one to finally close the discussion since LUA code = Script and Script != software.
  • Vahrokh
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    yodased wrote: »
    well those definitions aren't really accurate, since a program has to be compiled into executable code which is no longer text, its executable code.

    text =/= code.

    No, a program IS the written instructions, the corresponding compiled EXECUTABLE is the compiled code. The confusion comes because the developer "intention" (do this and that via software) is what constitutes the full program, therefore "program" can also mean the whole "all what it takes for this set of stuff to achieve its objective".

    Example: a 10k lines C++ source code constitutes a program. The corresponding 2M compiled result "EXE" file is the executable. The sum of the two is still known as "program" (or app to use modern oversimplified 5 old jargon).

    Also, with modern technologies the difference is getting blurrier and blurrier.
    PHP is source code but you can execute it as just in time compiled code or make an executable.

    Javascript is THE script code yet these days there are whole webservers that deliver content created by pure Javascript applications (also compiled with a JIT).
    Edited by Vahrokh on December 5, 2014 9:00AM
    Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress

    Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!

    Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos

    Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO
  • Gythral
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    If the resulting text can be executed then it's a program, does not mater if it is compiled to an .exe or interpreted (Javascript, basic, LUA)
    “Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
    Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
    Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
  • RSram
    RSram
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    Magnusnet is100% correct, but I would refer to the addons as scripts that are run by the game software similar to java scripts, but are just as dangerous because it's possible a script could take advantage of a bug in the game code to access your computer system. One of the ways a script can do this is through a buffer overflow attack.

    Allowing your software to run third third party scripts can introduce a vulnerability into the game system as we have already seen.

    Even if the addon works as expected, it doesn't mean that it isn't doing something unexpected.

    Just my two cents.
  • TequilaFire
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    I suggest for those who do not understand how addons work check this link
    out: wiki.esoui.com/Writing_your_first_addon

    The text obviously becomes code, and code is stored in the file group.
  • TehMagnus
    TehMagnus
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    TequilaFire wrote: »
    I suggest for those who do not understand how addons work check this link
    out: wiki.esoui.com/Writing_your_first_addon

    The text obviously becomes code, and code is stored in the file group.

    Text doesn't become code, it is code. It's just not runnable or compilable code which is why it's not software. It's interpreted by software. Just like server scripts that are run in an Apache server. They give automated instructions to the software because the software is made to accept code imput.

    If addons = 3rd party software then your whole client becomes 3rd party software.
    Edited by TehMagnus on December 5, 2014 12:58PM
  • TequilaFire
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    Most software starts life as a text file, i.e. a script or a source file so a human can understand it. It is then compiled or interpreted into native machine code
    to be executed.
    Text is not code it has to be translated into code.
    A processor would not understand a text file.

    The bottom line is addons text files ultimately become code.

    I will agree with you on addons not being apps however.
    App is short for application which is software which can stand on it's own to perform a function(s).

    Addons are more akin to a plugin which is software to add a function to an
    application and can not stand on it own.
    Edited by TequilaFire on December 5, 2014 1:15PM
  • TehMagnus
    TehMagnus
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    TequilaFire wrote: »
    Most software starts life as a text file, i.e. a script or a source file so a human can understand it. It is then compiled or interpreted into native machine code
    to be executed.
    Text is not code it has to be translated into code.
    A processor would not understand a text file.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_programming_language

    Read that. Just because High Level code needs to be compiled in Assembly language to be understood by processors, doesn't mean it's not code. Java, C++, JS, C# is code and still it's translated into low level code to be executed by the processor.

    In the case of LUA it's an Interpreted Language:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language
    An interpreted language is a programming language for which most of its implementations execute instructions directly, without previously compiling a program into machine-language instructions. The interpreter executes the program directly, translating each statement into a sequence of one or more subroutines already compiled into machine code.

    The software is the interpreter, the addon file doesn't become software, it is ran by the software.

    All software are programs but not all programs are software.
    Edited by TehMagnus on December 5, 2014 1:22PM
  • TequilaFire
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    You love forum pvp don't you? lol
    I provided the link to what an add on is and how it is created earlier in this thread
    so people understand that an ESO add on can contain the same risk of adding
    malicious code as say a bad browser plugin can add to to your web browser for example. All we are doing now is debating semantics.
    So time to let the thread get back on topic. l8r
  • Elsonso
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    I am entertained by the discussion of whether add-ons are "software" or not. Is Pluto a planet? Is an ESO add-on software? What is next?
    Gythral wrote: »
    but in reality just about everything that is used to track crafting, trading & buffs should be part of the UI, not part of the mod sets...

    That is a matter of opinion. While they can improve the crafting and trading UI, I would hesitate to say that I want just about every enhancement that has been written for these functions to be included into the base UI.

    The reason that add-on capability exists is so that people can extend the UI to perform the tasks that they want because the base UI will never be, or do, everything that everyone wants.

    They started with a very permissive add-on framework and they have been restricting it as people come up with new ways to abuse it.

    It prevents bloated user interfaces (think Microsoft Word) and allows Zenimax to see what people feel need to be added based on what add-ons they write.

    XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
    Total in-game hours: 11321
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • QuadroTony
    QuadroTony
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    so many texts
    as i said - addons isnt a sofrware
    - its simple =)
  • Robocles
    Robocles
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    smacx250 wrote: »
    Robocles wrote: »
    magnusnet wrote: »
    AlexDougherty wrote: »
    magnusnet wrote: »
    Sindala wrote: »
    pppontus wrote: »
    Sindala wrote: »
    They have a disclaimer stating you use addons at your own risk. They WONT give you your gold back as it wasn't anything to do with them or their game.

    Well, they did. So you can stop presenting lies as facts.

    I seriously doubt that and wont believe any different until a Dev posts that they did return gold due to a piece of 3rd party software.

    It's not software. Please stop talking of things you don't understand >_<

    I hate to break this to you, but apps are software.
    They are programmes, and as such fall under software.

    Anything to do with computers fails into either hardware (it has a physical existance) or Software (it's a programme).

    Addons are not apps. It's files of text that you add in a folder and that are executed by the software (aka the game). If your addon files where compiled into executable code then it would be software. This is not the case since "addons" (in this game) are instructions/commands that are read and executed by a precompiled software (or at least part of it: the API). <= This is why they can't harm your PC, at least not with the API limitations (thankfully).

    Saying addons (edit: in this game) are software is like saying text formated into an XML or CSV document is software.

    It's code executed by a runtime... still software.

    Read here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software

    and here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)

    Now, is an ESO add-on software?

    Edit: Posted in reference to all the quotes - not necessarily the last one!

    So what if it's interpreted? I used a number of databases in fairly large organizations that were interpreted. Was that not software, either? This pissing match over whether an addon (or a script as many call it) is software is purely semantic. As such, I really could care less any more. I write code, it gets interpreted (and then interpreted again) and it performs a desired function. Simple enough for me.
  • Robocles
    Robocles
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    magnusnet wrote: »
    Beesting wrote: »
    Kraven wrote: »
    Quick question. How many would notice if instead of sending every bit of your gold it sent 5g every time you opened your inventory? Or 10g once per day? 100g every time you switched characters?

    Damn now I want to make an add on.

    I have actually been thinking for a while this is happening for real.. Like a what happened to all those millions i made? It's not like i spent all my money on my GF like in real life...

    You where drunk and gave them to me, don't you remember? :D
    smacx250 wrote: »
    Robocles wrote: »
    magnusnet wrote: »
    AlexDougherty wrote: »
    magnusnet wrote: »
    Sindala wrote: »
    pppontus wrote: »
    Sindala wrote: »
    They have a disclaimer stating you use addons at your own risk. They WONT give you your gold back as it wasn't anything to do with them or their game.

    Well, they did. So you can stop presenting lies as facts.

    I seriously doubt that and wont believe any different until a Dev posts that they did return gold due to a piece of 3rd party software.

    It's not software. Please stop talking of things you don't understand >_<

    I hate to break this to you, but apps are software.
    They are programmes, and as such fall under software.

    Anything to do with computers fails into either hardware (it has a physical existance) or Software (it's a programme).

    Addons are not apps. It's files of text that you add in a folder and that are executed by the software (aka the game). If your addon files where compiled into executable code then it would be software. This is not the case since "addons" (in this game) are instructions/commands that are read and executed by a precompiled software (or at least part of it: the API). <= This is why they can't harm your PC, at least not with the API limitations (thankfully).

    Saying addons (edit: in this game) are software is like saying text formated into an XML or CSV document is software.

    It's code executed by a runtime... still software.

    Read here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software

    and here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)

    Now, is an ESO add-on software?

    Edit: Posted in reference to all the quotes - not necessarily the last one!

    http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2286552/difference-between-a-script-and-a-program

    Should add this last one to finally close the discussion since LUA code = Script and Script != software.

    That discussion was closed because it wasn't even constructive. How is that the final line?
  • QuadroTony
    QuadroTony
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    answer from ZOS
    ZvagTH1.jpg


  • leeux
    leeux
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    @QuadroTony‌

    I'm glad they decided to go for that option... it's the best solution, IMO.

    Thanks for posting it here :)
    PC/NA - Proud old member of the Antique Ordinatus Populus
    My chars
    Liana Amnell (AD mSorc L50+, ex EP) =x= Lehnnan Klennett (AD mTemplar L50+ Healer/Support ) =x= Ethim Amnell (AD mDK L50+, ex DC)
    Leinwyn Valaene (AD mSorc L50+) =x= Levus Artorias (AD mDK-for-now L50+) =x= Madril Ulessen (AD mNB L50+) =x= Lyra Amnis (AD not-Stamplar-yet L50+)
    I only PvP on AD chars

    ~~ «And blossoms anew beneath tomorrow's sun >>»
    ~~ «I am forever swimming around, amidst this ocean world we call home... >>»
    ~~ "Let strength be granted so the world might be mended... so the world might be mended."
    ~~ "Slash the silver chain that binds thee to life"
    ~~ Our cries will shrill, the air will moan and crash into the dawn. >>
    ~~ The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change >>
  • scarydrew
    scarydrew
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    Sindala wrote: »
    They have a disclaimer stating you use addons at your own risk. They WONT give you your gold back as it wasn't anything to do with them or their game.

    thats funny, cuz they have for at least one person that i know of... so... ur wrong
  • Woolenthreads
    Woolenthreads
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    Tankqull wrote: »
    AlexDougherty wrote: »
    Kraven wrote: »
    Quick question. How many would notice if instead of sending every bit of your gold it sent 5g every time you opened your inventory? Or 10g once per day? 100g every time you switched characters?

    Damn now I want to make an add on.

    I might notice, but only because I would eventually spot it on my inactive toons who are researching and getting mats in their mails. On my active toon, I probably wouldn't spot it, because money coming in would outweigh the small amounts you are talking about.

    However ZOS would notice fairly quickly, hundreds of players mailing you money everyday, in ridiculously small amounts. I think that would raise all sorts of alarm bells, and they would investigate.

    that doesn´t even create bellrings in (rl) banks actually why do you think it would at zos...

    Actually it does "create bellrings in (rl) banks", if the value is low enough, at least in Australia. Apparently docking an account number a dollar is a means to determine whether it's an active account number, so the banks in Oz hold the transaction and contact the Account Holder.
    Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!

    Having issues with Provisioning Writs? A list of problem Writs and people willing to help in game can be found in this Thread
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