PvP Destroyed

Columba

Nala_ wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lol. So he dominates a server with impulse trains yet hates the removal of fcs. Anyhow, pvp seems ver alive too me, very full last night. Enough with the drama. This change is loved by some, hated by others. Nothing except lag removal will be like by all

yeah it would be nice if there wasnt a record low number pvping right now, this change is loved by some and hated by others, but its pretty blatant the majority hates it considering theres so few people pvping now compared to pre-1.5. and with less people pvping somehow they created more lag because everyone is bunched up together attacking or defending only one thing on the map

I honestly see no evidence that pvp population have meaningfully dropped. Your belief may be an artifact of the fights bring more dispersed,

Aeratus

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Now all the people who think it saved PvP can all sit around in a dying campaign saying how great the change is for them....until they realize how bored they are and move on with the rest of us.

Thornblade still has some fairly sizable queues for AD. So I guess this game hasn't been "dying" enough for me to get in when I want.

Nala_

Columba wrote: »

Nala_ wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lol. So he dominates a server with impulse trains yet hates the removal of fcs. Anyhow, pvp seems ver alive too me, very full last night. Enough with the drama. This change is loved by some, hated by others. Nothing except lag removal will be like by all

yeah it would be nice if there wasnt a record low number pvping right now, this change is loved by some and hated by others, but its pretty blatant the majority hates it considering theres so few people pvping now compared to pre-1.5. and with less people pvping somehow they created more lag because everyone is bunched up together attacking or defending only one thing on the map

I honestly see no evidence that pvp population have meaningfully dropped. Your belief may be an artifact of the fights bring more dispersed,

look at pop bars throughout the entire day, stop blindly defending your own playstyle in every single post on the entire forum

LarsS

I see no evidence for lower pop in Thonblade (EU).

Nala_

LarsS wrote: »

I see no evidence for lower pop in Thonblade (EU).

thornblade us definitely is

Mud_Puppy

Camps are a grey area. You can't fix a problem by doing the extreme opposite.

Columba

Nala_ wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Nala_ wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lol. So he dominates a server with impulse trains yet hates the removal of fcs. Anyhow, pvp seems ver alive too me, very full last night. Enough with the drama. This change is loved by some, hated by others. Nothing except lag removal will be like by all

yeah it would be nice if there wasnt a record low number pvping right now, this change is loved by some and hated by others, but its pretty blatant the majority hates it considering theres so few people pvping now compared to pre-1.5. and with less people pvping somehow they created more lag because everyone is bunched up together attacking or defending only one thing on the map

I honestly see no evidence that pvp population have meaningfully dropped. Your belief may be an artifact of the fights bring more dispersed,

look at pop bars throughout the entire day, stop blindly defending your own playstyle in every single post on the entire forum

I'm not blindly defending anything. I describe what I experience. No population reduction in pvp PRIME TIME. Why would the time of day affect the population reduction from no FCs?

Yes, some people will leave pvp. others will start pvping as a result. Plenty of people left pvp because of blood porting. Time to move on.

martinhpb16_ESO

Columba wrote: »

I disagree with you . Brian you SAVED PVP. No more mindless impulse monkey spammers able to hurl themselves at the enemy without consequences. applause!

now the pulsing pederasts are angry. good riddance.

Sorry aside from the "mindless" generalisation that you spout here can you explain in detail how the removal of FC has improved pvp perhaps with some examples?

For me pvp has become a lot less exciting and rewarding since the removal of FC and I sincerely mean that. I challenge your simplistic assertion that how I played was mindless.

martinhpb16_ESO

Darthryan wrote: »

The only people who like the new changes are the pvp impulse spamming guilds.

I totally agree with this.

Lava_Croft

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Darthryan wrote: »

The only people who like the new changes are the pvp impulse spamming guilds.

I totally agree with this.

I always play solo and I haven't got a single skill point invested in the Destruction Staff skill line, yet I applaud the semi-removal of forward camps.

Your statement is false.

Ifthir_ESO

Columba wrote: »

Nala_ wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lol. So he dominates a server with impulse trains yet hates the removal of fcs. Anyhow, pvp seems ver alive too me, very full last night. Enough with the drama. This change is loved by some, hated by others. Nothing except lag removal will be like by all

yeah it would be nice if there wasnt a record low number pvping right now, this change is loved by some and hated by others, but its pretty blatant the majority hates it considering theres so few people pvping now compared to pre-1.5. and with less people pvping somehow they created more lag because everyone is bunched up together attacking or defending only one thing on the map

I honestly see no evidence that pvp population have meaningfully dropped. Your belief may be an artifact of the fights bring more dispersed,

There was 200+ on screen for me last night at BRK and not a single command was going through in 5+ seconds.

I like the changes too but the lag has to be fixed. Has to be. I am surprised no one has sued ZoS yet.

Ifthir_ESO

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Sorry aside from the "mindless" generalisation that you spout here can you explain in detail how the removal of FC has improved pvp perhaps with some examples?

For me pvp has become a lot less exciting and rewarding since the removal of FC and I sincerely mean that. I challenge your simplistic assertion that how I played was mindless.

I like that dying has consequences now and zerging people in with the 7k ap FC you can buy after 20 minutes in cyrodiil just mean endless zergs at keeps. Sure fighting was "Longer" and "more rewarding" due to AP gains but really how much fun is to kill the same guy 7 times in a raid because they have endless FC's.

You may not like this change because you prefer zerging bads. Some of us don't like those and prefer this new situation.

martinhpb16_ESO

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i was thinking about asking for wayshrines to be added perhaps inbetween certain keeps maybe, but then i realized people would just camp the shrines waiting for people to spawn and would just be greefing and extreme annoying.
but something along the lines of wayshrines is probably the best answer in this case.
even if they had an area around the shrine that was a safe zone to make it so you could not be killed there, but even that can be abused so i dont know the real answer but there is answers somewhere and im sure those answers will be found in zenimax.
gota have faith.

Nice idea, maybe these wayshrines could be portable consumables and you could buy them from a vendor. To be used to support an attack or a defence perhaps they could be designed to look like a temporary structure........oh wait !

martinhpb16_ESO

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Sorry aside from the "mindless" generalisation that you spout here can you explain in detail how the removal of FC has improved pvp perhaps with some examples?

For me pvp has become a lot less exciting and rewarding since the removal of FC and I sincerely mean that. I challenge your simplistic assertion that how I played was mindless.

I like that dying has consequences now and zerging people in with the 7k ap FC you can buy after 20 minutes in cyrodiil just mean endless zergs at keeps. Sure fighting was "Longer" and "more rewarding" due to AP gains but really how much fun is to kill the same guy 7 times in a raid because they have endless FC's.

You may not like this change because you prefer zerging bads. Some of us don't like those and prefer this new situation.

No I do not like zerging bands, your preconceptions are wrong. I only ever play solo and in groups of up to about 6. I see that this change has actually given more power to zerging bands and impulse trains as it is now harder to move around the map, harder to take keeps and concentrating fights into less areas. Also the map changes are less dynamic.

I liked placing a camp behind enemy lines solo or with a small group and having great small group fights and 1v1s. I also liked supporting my faction at key strategic assaults and defence situations whilst the action was still hot.

I would rather fight the same guy 7 times rather than never fight him at all. The fights around FC on resources could be very intense and awesome fun.

Yes dying now does have consequences. The consequence of this is less exciting and aggressive fighting.

I only speak from my own experience in that pvp has been less fun, dynamic and exciting since the removal of FC. I can honestly say, hand on heart, that since the removal of FC all of the fights I have been involved in have been far less interesting than before 1.5.

The nub of it is there is now far less going on.

eliisra

Removing camps without making other adjustments was a bit hasty.

They properly killed mele as a viable playstyle, so thanks for that. They also killed any form of solo'ing other than sneaking and ganking. Also the braindead pew-pew zerg back and fourth between polarised keeps, it's making me fall asleep.

The FC's where indeed causing massive lag and performance dips, when everyone kept spawning and monkey spamming at the same spots. But this "fix" feels lazy. Was it to hard re-coding camp functionally?

They need to bring some counter actions. Soul Gems with AP is a good start, but I need more. Spending 50% of my time in Cyrodiil travelling at the moment to do 50% PvE, it really drains the fun out of PvP. Because no, there's no spontaneous little skirmishes along the road. And no, there's no one coming to defend a contested keep, the mounts aren't fast enough.

How about 3-4 spread out wayshrines in Cyrodiil for example? That can be taken, held and defended by the faction.

Columba

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

I disagree with you . Brian you SAVED PVP. No more mindless impulse monkey spammers able to hurl themselves at the enemy without consequences. applause!

now the pulsing pederasts are angry. good riddance.

Sorry aside from the "mindless" generalisation that you spout here can you explain in detail how the removal of FC has improved pvp perhaps with some examples?

For me pvp has become a lot less exciting and rewarding since the removal of FC and I sincerely mean that. I challenge your simplistic assertion that how I played was mindless.

Soitenly....

I like the fact that groups can't blood port to a location halfway across the map. this rewards careful planning and deliberation of attackers.

I like the fact that groups can't simply overwhelm enemies by hurling themselves at the enemy with zero consequences. It requires a more strategic approach.

I appreciate the fact that if my group defeats another group, we don't have whack a mole where the group reappears over and over and over again like endless hordes of zombies.

I rezz dozens of people a night. i appreciate that this is now valued.

I like the fact that battles are spread out across the map because not everyone and his brother can insta port to the same fight.

I like the fact that other areas are seeing fights, - namely open field areas.

I never said your play was mindless. I contend that zero consequences from dying promote mindless play.

Having said all of this, I think the solution was a bit hasty. A better solution would be to put minimum and maximum radii on this camps to prevent blood porting and to prevent insta respawning at one fight.

Teargrants

Hello vocal whiners. May I ask what it is that is so abhorrent about not having insta port FCs as to suddenly make the entire experience of PvP unplayable to the point of unsubbing?

Is it because you can't death port 3 raids across the map to lag bomb a flag? Cuz rest assured, you can still do that, you just have to ride there first.

Is it cuz you can't kamekaze into groups over and over? If that's what you enjoy then I suggest being a sorc, we get to do it without the dying part.

Is it cuz you can't death port to any keep under attack, so it's not even with defending to you? Here's a crazy idea, the same people who were tenting every keep can take a minute to instead ride around the walls and look for siege. Is it less efficient now? Yes, but it's the same for your enemies, use it to your advantage. If having one dude port around keeps now and then is too hard for your raid guild, then I dunno what to say.

Is it cuz riding a horse is taking too long to get to the next keep? Speed horse + maneuvers will get you to the next keep in 1-2 min, and that's allowing time for going along the roundabout way to avoid gankers.

Is it cuz you get ganked on the way to a keep and can't thank them for helping you death port to the FC? This may blow your mind but it's actually much much more dangerous for us gankers now with all the respawners running around and the finality of wipes. People know we have to rez, so they just camp our bodies. Yet we actually like these changes, it makes what we do impactful to the flow of the RvR. We just adjust out tactics.

Is it cuz you just can't stand being out of the action for a few minutes when you die? If this is a serious issue for you, then you are dying too frequently. Improve your build/playstyle and spec more into sustain.

Have you all forgotten the first few months of live where FCs were constantly bugged out?

Hagbardh

PVP without camps is now only for the highleveled chars. For with bow and medium armor vr6 it has become a die and run game. Very unpleasent. In this case one of my big pleasures in eso has been destroyed. Same procedure as i did in other games: Hoping that the next game would be better...

TheBull

Zerg guilds are dead.

Teargrants

Uh Hag, have you thought about maybe leveling up to V14? Sounds crazy, I know. You're instagibbing yourself with or without camps.

Columba

Hagbardh wrote: »

PVP without camps is now only for the highleveled chars. For with bow and medium armor vr6 it has become a die and run game. Very unpleasent. In this case one of my big pleasures in eso has been destroyed. Same procedure as i did in other games: Hoping that the next game would be better...

I am medium and bow, and I love it. use stealth when travelling or travel with a group. not that difficult.

Hagbardh

I want The camps back ! although i play the same tactic as you do

Varicite

Lava_Croft wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Darthryan wrote: »

The only people who like the new changes are the pvp impulse spamming guilds.

I totally agree with this.

I always play solo and I haven't got a single skill point invested in the Destruction Staff skill line, yet I applaud the semi-removal of forward camps.

Your statement is false.

Agreed. In fact, my only character that uses a Destro staff is strictly PvE, and I've been asking them to remove FCs for pretty much as long as they've been in the game.

FCs provide only 1 pro, which is less horse-riding. But there are several cons associated w/ them, and the cons tend to outweigh the single pro in my opinion.

The Cyrodiil map is designed to be played strategically, through the use of keeps, resources, supply lines, army movements, etc. FCs took almost all of that away the moment they were implemented.

I feel that people just need to get used to playing Cyro the way that it was meant to be played, but after 6 months of FCs ruining Cyro strategies, there are really only a handful of players left who remember what it was like before FCs.

So of course, people are going to complain about change, especially a change that makes the game a lot more strategic and slower-paced than before. I can understand that and sympathize w/ those who assumed that this was how Cyrodiil was meant to be.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that to be the case. The original campaigns were designed to be long, persistent wars; nothing about them was about the kind of instant gratification gameplay many of those complaining about the changes are talking about. Sieging a keep is supposed to take time, planning, and a bit of forethought. Mindlessly bloodporting half your faction to a keep to defend or attack was never the intention. The intention was to have a line of supporting keeps and resources available (and defended) so that your side could continue to push.

And of course, due to the massive abuse of FCs as well as undermining almost everything that Cyrodiil is designed to be, I think it's better for the climate of the game as a whole now that they are gone.

It's been less than a week. People are still not used to actually caring about dying.

The thing is, they should have been from the start. People picked up a lot of bad habits that weren't intended for Cyrodiil, and now that they are slowly being taken away, they are upset.

For players like me who enjoy the strategy of a slower-paced ebb and flow of war, going back to the way it was before FCs is a godsend. For players who prefer CoD-style jump-in-jump-out accessibility, it's obviously going to be a problem.

I'm just saying, Cyrodiil was never supposed to be the quick-fix type of PvP that CoD and other games have made popular. It's supposed to hearken back to a time before all of the instant gratification dominated the scene.

Satiar

Teargrants wrote: »

Hello vocal whiners. May I ask what it is that is so abhorrent about not having insta port FCs as to suddenly make the entire experience of PvP unplayable to the point of unsubbing?

Is it because you can't death port 3 raids across the map to lag bomb a flag? Cuz rest assured, you can still do that, you just have to ride there first.

Is it cuz you can't kamekaze into groups over and over? If that's what you enjoy then I suggest being a sorc, we get to do it without the dying part.

Is it cuz you can't death port to any keep under attack, so it's not even with defending to you? Here's a crazy idea, the same people who were tenting every keep can take a minute to instead ride around the walls and look for siege. Is it less efficient now? Yes, but it's the same for your enemies, use it to your advantage. If having one dude port around keeps now and then is too hard for your raid guild, then I dunno what to say.

Is it cuz riding a horse is taking too long to get to the next keep? Speed horse + maneuvers will get you to the next keep in 1-2 min, and that's allowing time for going along the roundabout way to avoid gankers.

Is it cuz you get ganked on the way to a keep and can't thank them for helping you death port to the FC? This may blow your mind but it's actually much much more dangerous for us gankers now with all the respawners running around and the finality of wipes. People know we have to rez, so they just camp our bodies. Yet we actually like these changes, it makes what we do impactful to the flow of the RvR. We just adjust out tactics.

Is it cuz you just can't stand being out of the action for a few minutes when you die? If this is a serious issue for you, then you are dying too frequently. Improve your build/playstyle and spec more into sustain.

Have you all forgotten the first few months of live where FCs were constantly bugged out?

I'm 78% sure this is our fault. We have killed too many.

martinhpb16_ESO

Teargrants wrote: »

Hello vocal whiners. May I ask what it is that is so abhorrent about not having insta port FCs as to suddenly make the entire experience of PvP unplayable to the point of unsubbing?

Is it because you can't death port 3 raids across the map to lag bomb a flag? Cuz rest assured, you can still do that, you just have to ride there first.

Is it cuz you can't kamekaze into groups over and over? If that's what you enjoy then I suggest being a sorc, we get to do it without the dying part.

Is it cuz you can't death port to any keep under attack, so it's not even with defending to you? Here's a crazy idea, the same people who were tenting every keep can take a minute to instead ride around the walls and look for siege. Is it less efficient now? Yes, but it's the same for your enemies, use it to your advantage. If having one dude port around keeps now and then is too hard for your raid guild, then I dunno what to say.

Is it cuz riding a horse is taking too long to get to the next keep? Speed horse + maneuvers will get you to the next keep in 1-2 min, and that's allowing time for going along the roundabout way to avoid gankers.

Is it cuz you get ganked on the way to a keep and can't thank them for helping you death port to the FC? This may blow your mind but it's actually much much more dangerous for us gankers now with all the respawners running around and the finality of wipes. People know we have to rez, so they just camp our bodies. Yet we actually like these changes, it makes what we do impactful to the flow of the RvR. We just adjust out tactics.

Is it cuz you just can't stand being out of the action for a few minutes when you die? If this is a serious issue for you, then you are dying too frequently. Improve your build/playstyle and spec more into sustain.

Have you all forgotten the first few months of live where FCs were constantly bugged out?

Nope its because there is less action.

Teargrants

Less action? Yet my nightly kill counts are consistently higher than they were pre 1.5 because there is literally action all over the fields. So much action in fact that we have to pull further off the main gank line between keeps to keep from being zergged down.

Are you one of the types that sits at the shrine until transit is open to the front line, and be damned if you have to ride to the battle, time's too precious for that crap?

Satiar

More seriously though, this feels so much better to me. It reminds me of the early days. I remember running day-long raids with Hijinx on Bloodthorn, scurrying from resource to resource and keep to keep, defending and attacking and maneuvering efficiently. Everything was part of the battle, the routes we took and where we went mattered, we couldn't count on blood porting. Teamwork meant everything, keep your teammates alive and rez the fallen. Hell, I loved the *** shield walls people used to put up, standing bodies over the dead to prevent easy instagib.

Now I don't raid as much, I find my joy in small scale PvP. I'm really excited for this change, and what it brings to what I do. Where I take my group matters now, we can change sieges and battles and delay reinforcements. It's more dangerous for us, though. We get rolled over a lot more than we used to, groups travel bigger than they used to, and we literally cannot operate how we used to.

And that's ok. Like Teargrants said, we adjust our playstyle. We'll learn, and we'll keep on having fun with it. I'm just so happy that PvP is open now. I dunno how many of you guys play MMOs regularly, but the PvP here is unique. There is nothing out there that has this. The sheer size and scale of this zone is special, and I praise almighty Dee Tick that it feels big as it is again.

Lava_Croft

It's much more fun in Cyrodiil now that the camps are gone, since people are actually forced to travel for a few minutes to and from objectives, instead of just committing suicide somewhere and respawning at a forward camp.

Sieges are better since there are short periods of breathing room inbetween the incoming groups of attackers, which now have to travel from another keep or outpost.

Impulse monkey groups are much less of a problem now that they cannot instantly and endlessly respawn at forward camps.

However, if your PvP consisted out of waiting at a keep with your map open looking for camps to respawn at, you will have to adapt to this improved Cyrodiil and spend a few minutes travelling.

Enjoy the sights! Get ganked! Enjoy the sights some more!

Columba

reminds me much more of dark age than the fc lag fest we had previously. there probably is a happy medium though. let's hope they find it.

AhPook_Is_Here

I am really enjoying the changes, the map's transportation system means something again. Keeps getting flagged means something more than time to feed a farmer at a suicide node to get to a camp inside a keep that is supposed to have transportation restricted.

I cannot imagine the developers had intended to undo their transportation and supply system with forward camps, but that's what they did. I hope they never restore them to the game; I was ready to cancel my subscription before these changes because the meta-game had gotten so absurd. All I could think about every time i fed some farmer 5k+ AP for a solo kill at a node just to get to some place that 100 other people from the opposing faction were suiciding into was how ridiculous the game mechanics had become and how pointless the travel system was.

Whatever changes they make from here I hope do not include returning camps. The lag is the biggest issue in my mind at the moment and should be their highest priority.