Update 5 - First step in an awesome direction

TehMagnus

Rudyard wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

And there it is. Ignorance. Can't see how brushing off an entire segment of players as irrelevant is disrespectful.

I'm not saying they are irrelevant, I'm saying all they want is an easy game that involves no challenge and it's proven that those games fail big time. Thus I'm saying they are wrong and we shouldn't listen to them if we want the game to succeed which is why this patch is awesome.

It's quite a different thing.

How do you know what they want? Have you actually surveyed multiple players who didn't want the new dungeon scaling? Or are you some type of psychic? Just how did you gather the information for your opinion in your original post "The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard.""

Because it's the arguments they've been using in these same forums since launch when ever they where complaining VR levels where hard, trials where had, their "Play as you want" builds werent working, they wanted more solo content, etc etc etc.

Paske

ESO was a failure . Right untill Quackecon where they basicly said - we F-ed up.

Sorry everyone.

These are changes we will do in order to remedy this.

Its on good path to become one again.

TehMagnus

AngryNord wrote: »

@Rudyard Please don't feed the trolls

@AngryNord

Not trolling I genuinely believe everything I'm saying (even if I do intentionally use some words & sentences to annoy people) and if someone feels I'm being unfair or have any argument as to why content shouldn't scale to their level other than the ones I posted in OP. I invite them to post them .

Weird thing is since I made my post, everybody LOL's my comments, says I'm being disrespectful, "how do you know that's what we want" (my personal favorite, especially when it's not followed by "This is what I want") etc etc etc but nobody has actually said: Hey you're wrong, I don't want dungeon scaling because....

Tavore1138

@magnusnet this game spawned from a very popular solo franchise. You were always going to see a high solo population and a good number of MMO virgins and ZOS will presumably want to keep taking subs from those players while working to get them grouping.

I mostly fall into that category myself but have begun to love PvP and grouping but still like to solo too.

Personally I agree vet should not have been nerfed and I am glad I finished it before they did. A handful of encounters needed tweaking but a global nerf was harmful as it acted as a training ground.

Scaling will prove to be the same, tweaks and balances needed to get it just right.

But overall they are still going to need to provide solo content, by all means make it challenging content but doable by one competent player.

TehMagnus

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

@magnusnet this game spawned from a very popular solo franchise. You were always going to see a high solo population and a good number of MMO virgins and ZOS will presumably want to keep taking subs from those players while working to get them grouping.

I mostly fall into that category myself but have begun to love PvP and grouping but still like to solo too.

Personally I agree vet should not have been nerfed and I am glad I finished it before they did. A handful of encounters needed tweaking but a global nerf was harmful as it acted as a training ground.

Scaling will prove to be the same, tweaks and balances needed to get it just right.

But overall they are still going to need to provide solo content, by all means make it challenging content but doable by one competent player.

Update 6: New solo zone. They aren't forgetting about solo players (even if IMO as a raider, I feel they failed to address our needs up until now while favoring content for solo players like that ugly horizontal progression). I don't blame them for trying to make a game with Horizontal progression, many crazy people claim it's the future of MMOGs.

I'm just glad that end game is actually fun and we actually have stuff to do & aim for (vertical progression) which is why I see Update 5 as one of the best if not the best so far as to what it brings to the game.

pppontus

magnusnet wrote: »

Then again, I've been playing MMORPGs for years and this is the first one where I see so much QQ related to the difficulty of the game and I blame that on solo players. VR pre nerf was a difficulty wall but still doable. VR post nerf was just boring.

Yes, I hit VR content with my Stamina NB and it was pretty hard. I adapted, changed my build a little more towards hybrid and better defense.. and it worked. Quested through most of the Silver/Gold stuff, and it was still pretty hard but it worked. I usually hate questing but the difficulty made it fun.

When the VR nerf came, I did one quest and that was the last zone quest I ever did. So boring, might as well have gone with the naked fist-build.

Zorrashi

I myself like the update. The increased difficulty of the solo quest lines is a joy, especially when I unintentionally outleveled the content prior.

However, I contend with a certain amount of players that there should be an option to play those quests with the original difficulty (with a sub-par reward. Preferably a really really sub-par reward). If they really feel like the quest lines scaling difficulty serve as a big wall to their progress/enjoyment to the game, then I suppose it wouldn't be much to allow them to get by. At least, that's how I feel for the main quest. There are simply some players who don't have the patience and/or skills to breach it without a level boost, and seeing how most want to progress through the main quest I feel there should be a little amount of leeway. Just a little.

The daily quests are 'meh' for me, but I know a great amount of players are enjoying it. Kind of conflicted on the rewards though, but they are passable.

Now if I were to rate it based on my personal biased enjoyability, I'd say 6 out of 10. Don't get me wrong, I am fine with the content presented, but overall I don't feel it adds much fun to my playthrough save for the dungeon scaling.

TehMagnus

Zorrashi wrote: »

I myself like the update. The increased difficulty of the solo quest lines is a joy, especially when I unintentionally outleveled the content prior.

However, I contend with a certain amount of players that there should be an option to play those quests with the original difficulty (with a sub-par reward. Preferably a really really sub-par reward). If they really feel like the quest lines scaling difficulty serve as a big wall to their progress/enjoyment to the game, then I suppose it wouldn't be much to allow them to get by. At least, that's how I feel for the main quest. There are simply some players who don't have the patience and/or skills to breach it without a level boost, and seeing how most want to progress through the main quest I feel there should be a little amount of leeway. Just a little.

The daily quests are 'meh' for me, but I know a great amount of players are enjoying it. Kind of conflicted on the rewards though, but they are passable.

Now if I were to rate it based on my personal biased enjoyability, I'd say 6 out of 10. Don't get me wrong, I am fine with the content presented, but overall I don't feel it adds much fun to my playthrough save for the dungeon scaling.

Yeah Crafting Writs seem a bit useless, won't be doing those most likely unless I really have nothing to do (which seems unlikely).

Undaunted daily rewards are interesting although a bit inconsistent (sucks to get rewarded a good set piece but instead of being Light its medium armor ). Then again, having Light Armors with Armor bonusses that usually belong to heavy armors could make for interesting builds .

It does also suck that traits are so random, it pains me to drop the new "Spellweaver" (I think it's the name) set from City of Ash with sturdy trait on it ^^. They should limit it to the most used traits like infused/impenetrable on big pieces and divine on small ones else it becomes a really long grind when you know what you want. Still new sets looks nice and I'll be clearing that dungeon over and over again for it!

And some sets do look awesome which is very nice for a change, I just love the headset that drops from VR City of Ash boss ^^.

Yet despite all these minor inconveniences, still think it's quite nice indeed! :disagree:

ZOS_AlexD

Hello everyone. This is a friendly reminder to keep discussions respectful and civil. While we don't expect everyone to agree on all points, we do expect discussions to refrain from personal comments, flaming, or trolling. This also means that sometimes, you may need to just agree to disagree. We want all players to feel welcome on the forums and to feel like they can express their opinions and feedback (as long as they remain ESO related and within the Code of Conduct). Thank you for your understanding.

bellanca6561n

Okay, back on point:

This patch reflects thoughtful, intelligent multiplayer game design that looks forward rather than reacting to all those things that never go as planned in an online game release.

Highlights in my view:

The Ultima Online Bulk Order Deed System

You don't reinvent brilliant systems from other games. You use them. Called Crafting Writs in this game, the system of filling crafting orders for experience and rewards not only expands the game beyond I-kill-therefore-I-am, it's an important step toward a more sophisticated crafting system that makes sense.

The Return of Limlight Gorge - the Undaunted Dailies

Again, you take the best that's been done and adapt it to your game world. Lord of the Rings Online group dailies in Limlight Gorge accomplished two necessary things:

1. With quests that could not be soloed but did not require a team of extremely accomplished players, it helped players meet one another while helping them learn the basics of group play.

2. Provides an optional alternative path to leveling and acquiring loot.

First Steps in Replacing the Veteran Rank System

This felt like a second choice from the beginning. The Champion System simply makes more sense and offers more options.

Chat Bubbles

Yes, only 64 views in this topic here. But this forum represents the community for this game about as well as a bouncer represents a club. This is another proven feature that will help transform ESO into a true multiplayer game.

Caroloces

The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion.

I agree with the op on most of his points, but I felt that this broad brushstroke of a certain segment of the community was somewhat disrespectful. There may be many reasons why a player needs some accommodation of difficult content, including physical limitations. Though I haven't had a chance to test the new update due to work, my own feeling is that ZOS is on the right track in meeting the needs of a wide range of players through this update. The dungeon scaling will provide for challenging content throughout the whole range of the game, and if you need things to be easier you make a lower level player into the group leader.

Currently, solo content difficulty is suposed to lower when the game detects you're having problems completing it. I'd rather ZOS expand on this idea and make mobs easier if you die to them a couple of times than implement complex systems that will just fail and take up a lot of dev ressources.

And this is an important point. I was first dismayed when I read the patch notes detailing how solo content would "compensate" for a player who was having difficulty, but now I realize that a player who has limited skills or an inability to complete solo quests won't be frustrated to the point of quitting the game. The only quibble I might have with this is that perhaps it should be an option for players. If I'm having an off night, and having difficulty with a solo quest, I don't want the game deciding for me whether the content is too difficult or not. Like the op, I'm a player who wants challenging content even if I have to die numerous times to complete it.

TehMagnus

Caroloces wrote: »

I agree with the op on most of his points, but I felt that this broad brushstroke of a certain segment of the community was somewhat disrespectful.

I'm mostly referring to the scandalized players making outraged posts claiming Update 5 sucks, that dungeon scaling is *** that ZOS sucks at all they do, that it's the worst thing that happened to the game etc etc etc.

I don't see anyone commenting on their posts claiming they are being disrespectful to ZOS. I suppose it's OK to trashtalk and call the entire ZOS team a bunch of incompetent [snip] (since it's become so common around here) or call people Elitist Pricks but as soon as you comment on those people describing the selfish reasons behind their hate talk it's disrespectful? Thus I don't see why I should sugar code what I say about them, especially when what I say is true for a great part of them and I'm not insulting them or anything (I'm still waiting for someone to post why dungeon/solo content scaling is a bad thing).

Caroloces wrote: »

Currently, solo content difficulty is suposed to lower when the game detects you're having problems completing it. I'd rather ZOS expand on this idea and make mobs easier if you die to them a couple of times than implement complex systems that will just fail and take up a lot of dev ressources.

And this is an important point. I was first dismayed when I read the patch notes detailing how solo content would "compensate" for a player who was having difficulty, but now I realize that a player who has limited skills or an inability to complete solo quests won't be frustrated to the point of quitting the game. The only quibble I might have with this is that perhaps it should be an option for players. If I'm having an off night, and having difficulty with a solo quest, I don't want the game deciding for me whether the content is too difficult or not. Like the op, I'm a player who wants challenging content even if I have to die numerous times to complete it.

I agree it's an extremely important point so that people have a good solo experience, guess they skipped this part while reading patch notes. It's also possible that the compensation isn't enough then it needs to be reported & addressed by ZOS. I agree with your last point personally but still think it's a hassle to develop this kind of "choices" and that if I'm having an off night, I can just leave & reenter dungeon or return later to avoid the "compensation" of the difficulty ^^.

Robocles

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

The part of the community complaining about this are just??? solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion.

The l33tnezz of this statement is just dripping with joy juice! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside! Really! I LOVE being told what I want! HONEST! It just makes my day! The whole "just solo/casual players" comment is just ooozing with respect for a healthy segment of the people in this game. I feel so moved!

Don't get me wrong, many solo/casual players like challenges and prolly welcome these changes as I do. But the only people who are complaining are mostly the people who should be playing solo games where you can just pop up console and enable God mode. Those people will never be satisfied and will end up leaving anyways . It's a good thing ZOS is moving forward and accepting that thus finally turning this game into a great one as it should have been since the beginning.

ZOS wants to make money. The wild changes in difficulty and rate you can progress make people leave. They make less money. But, if you want a tiny elitist game, good on ya. Have fun.

Audigy

magnusnet wrote: »

Rudyard wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

And there it is. Ignorance. Can't see how brushing off an entire segment of players as irrelevant is disrespectful.

I'm not saying they are irrelevant, I'm saying all they want is an easy game that involves no challenge and it's proven that those games fail big time. Thus I'm saying they are wrong and we shouldn't listen to them if we want the game to succeed which is why this patch is awesome.

It's quite a different thing.

How do you know what they want? Have you actually surveyed multiple players who didn't want the new dungeon scaling? Or are you some type of psychic? Just how did you gather the information for your opinion in your original post "The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard.""

Because it's the arguments they've been using in these same forums since launch when ever they where complaining VR levels where hard, trials where had, their "Play as you want" builds werent working, they wanted more solo content, etc etc etc.

Stop!

Don't mistake Casuals for "its too hard for me players" please. I am a Casual and I loved the idea of VR content. The Single Player Campaigns in a much harder difficulty, wonderful and a much wanted feature of me since many years.

Everyone could play in his own difficulty setting, I don't know if I would had played in gold or silver but there was something for everyone in this game.

I hate what ZO did to VR content, to give us Craglorn where the only difficulty is finding a group does not make me as a Casual happy. The first VR we had was sufficient for my needs and would had kept me busy for at least a year.

Solo also has not much to do with Casuals. People that want to solo demand this because of the negative attitude of Elitists. You know those who spam DPS meters, demand achievements or TS. These people are the reason why so many want solo content as they don't see any light in the tunnel of group content as long Elitism exists.

I love to play in groups but over the years even I do it less often now. Especially if you play a tank or healer you are the victim of constant abuse and this isn't something you enjoy much.

Don't get me wrong, not every group is like that and I am sure some TS groups can be kind as well but the majority sadly isn't and they spoil the fun for group oriented content.

TehMagnus

Robocles wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

The part of the community complaining about this are just??? solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion.

The l33tnezz of this statement is just dripping with joy juice! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside! Really! I LOVE being told what I want! HONEST! It just makes my day! The whole "just solo/casual players" comment is just ooozing with respect for a healthy segment of the people in this game. I feel so moved!

Don't get me wrong, many solo/casual players like challenges and prolly welcome these changes as I do. But the only people who are complaining are mostly the people who should be playing solo games where you can just pop up console and enable God mode. Those people will never be satisfied and will end up leaving anyways . It's a good thing ZOS is moving forward and accepting that thus finally turning this game into a great one as it should have been since the beginning.

ZOS wants to make money. The wild changes in difficulty and rate you can progress make people leave. They make less money. But, if you want a tiny elitist game, good on ya. Have fun.

Having nothing to do makes people leave.
Having an easy game you can just steam roll & finish quickly thus leading to having nothing to do makes people leave.
They make less money.

Changing the content to make it more challenging, introduce a gear grind and a skill grind as well as other stuff like the nice head sets you get on final bosses and thus give people a reason to login to the game every day to clear content thus having something to do all the time even if they are max level <= Makes people stay. <= They make more money.

As long as it's not a difficulty wall, then it's all good. Vr dungeons are still easy as pie in my opinion and just a bit longer. Solo content difficulty lowers if you're having issues.

I want a large living game and it's gonna be that way. I hadn't seen Belkhart or home cities so alive in a lot of time. I hadn't seen that much people logged into the guilds for a long time.

Guess those people are enjoying the content & making money for ZOS instead of complaining.

TehMagnus

Audigy wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Rudyard wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

And there it is. Ignorance. Can't see how brushing off an entire segment of players as irrelevant is disrespectful.

I'm not saying they are irrelevant, I'm saying all they want is an easy game that involves no challenge and it's proven that those games fail big time. Thus I'm saying they are wrong and we shouldn't listen to them if we want the game to succeed which is why this patch is awesome.

It's quite a different thing.

How do you know what they want? Have you actually surveyed multiple players who didn't want the new dungeon scaling? Or are you some type of psychic? Just how did you gather the information for your opinion in your original post "The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard.""

Because it's the arguments they've been using in these same forums since launch when ever they where complaining VR levels where hard, trials where had, their "Play as you want" builds werent working, they wanted more solo content, etc etc etc.

Stop!

Don't mistake Casuals for "its too hard for me players" please. I am a Casual and I loved the idea of VR content. The Single Player Campaigns in a much harder difficulty, wonderful and a much wanted feature of me since many years.

Everyone could play in his own difficulty setting, I don't know if I would had played in gold or silver but there was something for everyone in this game.

I hate what ZO did to VR content, to give us Craglorn where the only difficulty is finding a group does not make me as a Casual happy. The first VR we had was sufficient for my needs and would had kept me busy for at least a year.

Solo also has not much to do with Casuals. People that want to solo demand this because of the negative attitude of Elitists. You know those who spam DPS meters, demand achievements or TS. These people are the reason why so many want solo content as they don't see any light in the tunnel of group content as long Elitism exists.

I love to play in groups but over the years even I do it less often now. Especially if you play a tank or healer you are the victim of constant abuse and this isn't something you enjoy much.

Don't get me wrong, not every group is like that and I am sure some TS groups can be kind as well but the majority sadly isn't and they spoil the fun for group oriented content.

I understand Craglorn was bad for lots of players but it's not the issue here.

If I understand well you're against making VR group dungeons scale (so harder) because it makes you have to group with people that will judge how you play? And it's not a problem if the content is easy since you don't need to play well to clear the content? So, you're against dungeon scaling because you want the game to be easy mode.... but it's because the other players are Elitist abusers?

I understand how you feel but I don't see how this can make for an interesting game, especially for people who play MMOGs especially because they want to play with other people (which is kinda the aim of these games you know?).

As for blaming everything on "Elitists" it's a BS excuse. I see everyday people spaming LFG in chat and I doubt they are all Elitists and I see them clearing stuff everyday as well without issue I'm also in a guild of casual players and I know for a fact they clear content in groups on a daily basis. I've also seen hundreds of people in these forums QQ about Elitists ruining the game for them. There's so much people who claim they despise Elitists I find it hard to believe they can't find eachother in game. Nothing keeps you from spaming LFG X dungeon No Elitists.

As for TS, it's usually a good thing if your not grouping with pricks but people who will give you tips while you clear the content to improve. I must admit I hate playing with people who aren't on TS unless they are really good and know their [snip] (just 2 days ago I went in BC with a random tank who enjoyed taking the boss OUTSIDE of my banners every single time I put them down. If he had been on ts, I could have told him not to move. Since he wasn't I had to write in chat, since he didn't read chat, I got really annoyed). If you've landed in a group of abusers, nothing keeps you from ignoring them, leaving group and leaving TS. No need to waste time & sustain their abuse.

Zorrashi

magnusnet wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

The part of the community complaining about this are just??? solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion.

The l33tnezz of this statement is just dripping with joy juice! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside! Really! I LOVE being told what I want! HONEST! It just makes my day! The whole "just solo/casual players" comment is just ooozing with respect for a healthy segment of the people in this game. I feel so moved!

Don't get me wrong, many solo/casual players like challenges and prolly welcome these changes as I do. But the only people who are complaining are mostly the people who should be playing solo games where you can just pop up console and enable God mode. Those people will never be satisfied and will end up leaving anyways . It's a good thing ZOS is moving forward and accepting that thus finally turning this game into a great one as it should have been since the beginning.

ZOS wants to make money. The wild changes in difficulty and rate you can progress make people leave. They make less money. But, if you want a tiny elitist game, good on ya. Have fun.

Having nothing to do makes people leave.
Having an easy game you can just steam roll & finish quickly thus leading to having nothing to do makes people leave.
They make less money.

Changing the content to make it more challenging, introduce a gear grind and a skill grind as well as other stuff like the nice head sets you get on final bosses and thus give people a reason to login to the game every day to clear content thus having something to do all the time even if they are max level <= Makes people stay. <= They make more money.

As long as it's not a difficulty wall, then it's all good. Vr dungeons are still easy as pie in my opinion and just a bit longer. Solo content difficulty lowers if you're having issues.

I want a large living game and it's gonna be that way. I hadn't seen Belkhart or home cities so alive in a lot of time. I hadn't seen that much people logged into the guilds for a long time.

Guess those people are enjoying the content & making money for ZOS instead of complaining.

Won't lie. The moment I read "gear grind" and then "skill grind" I almost disregarded the post. Can not even begin to tell you how much those ideas become a major turn off for me if it becomes paramount in the game. It may be fine in moderation, but if that becomes the point of the game I'd rather transfer to one that would satiate my needs. (No offence to you personally, as this is just an opinion).

I can't say for certain your ideal of vertical progression will kill the game. That seems far to presumptuous given the evidence (or lack thereof). But I do know one thing for certain; there are many who hold similar ideals as me. They would favor a more sandbox-esque game, preferring horizontal progression over vertical. More, ahem, 'passionate' players will claim that sandbox is undoubtedly the future of MMOs and that vertical progression is poison, but all I see in the matter is merely an alternative on how to enjoy a game.

I don't think I will ever see a radical horizontal/sandbox transformation of the game, nor do I expect it to. But I certainly don't want at least some of the aforementioned aspects to be totally forgotten and botched. The game would loose a great amount of its appeal otherwise.

To be blunt, I think that your ideal is hazardous to the game in that it only appeals to a certain variety of players instead of combination of various groups. Sort of like leaning to one side of the political spectrum and not toward the moderate center where the majority of the people lie.

That being said, most previous updates including the current certainly do their job in enriching the game in various aspects for mainly the group-minded, with a decent amount of non-Craglorn related content and quality of life additions.

Cuyler

magnusnet wrote: »

Problem is that the systems such as the one you describe require a lot of coding and planing since you also have to scale the rewards and think about a LOT of stuff to avoid exploits, balance issues, etc etc etc.

SNIP

Edit: The fact the VR content is easy never pushed them to experiment try new stuff or just go to Tamriel Foundry to find good working builds where people actually thought about what they where doing. Slightly harder content pushes people to try & get better.

There's quite a lot of irony in these statements. You first say that building code for a sliding scale system would be a daunting task. Then you go on to say that the harder VR content is a good thing because it pushes players to get better.

I can't help but wonder if the devs were to actually work on coding the harder sliding scale system wouldn't it then push them harder to get better? Why should devs be off the hook for what they get paid for (aka. "developing") and paying players be the only ones forced to improve?

In addition I don't agree that alienating and entire segment (not to mention significantly larger portion) of your paying customer base just to keep a small hardcore portion of the entire community is the way to create longevity in any market.

The truth is the sliding scale system would let everyone have their cake and eat it too. for all.

Edits: Just for the record I enjoy the change as well, agree with you there, I just feel it should be adjustable.

Daverios

It is a turning point alright. It is a hard left towards free to play with random reward goodie and random gear grind hell. Enjoy.

Cuyler

magnusnet wrote: »

Weird thing is since I made my post, everybody LOL's my comments, says I'm being disrespectful, "how do you know that's what we want" (my personal favorite, especially when it's not followed by "This is what I want") etc etc etc but nobody has actually said: Hey you're wrong, I don't want dungeon scaling because....

I think they have and your simply choosing selectively what to hear. The scaling is not doable for some if not most casual players. Your choosing to paint casuals as one broad brush....

These are human beings with all sorts of socioeconomic backgrounds all with different amounts of playtime and competence that just want to enjoy what they paid money for. Not simply just "casuals". Some have health issues (i.e. arthritis) and can't compete at their current level and need to over level. They still have a challenge when overleveled.

You and this system are currently pigeon-holing all of them. We need a sliding scale to cater to every walk of ESO player.

akalabethb14_ESO

Daverios wrote: »

It is a turning point alright. It is a hard left towards free to play with random reward goodie and random gear grind hell. Enjoy.

Yeah, its not going free to play anytime soon. Good try though.

jay342004b14_ESO

Same old argument.

SteveCampsOut

magnusnet wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

And there it is. Ignorance. Can't see how brushing off an entire segment of players as irrelevant is disrespectful.

I'm not saying they are irrelevant, I'm saying all they want is an easy game that involves no challenge and it's proven that those games fail big time. Thus I'm saying they are wrong and we shouldn't listen to them if we want the game to succeed which is why this patch is awesome.

It's quite a different thing.

You Win!

MasterSpatula

I see a lot of words that sound all reasonable, but the only impression I get is pure schadenfreude.

SteveCampsOut

magnusnet wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

@Rudyard Please don't feed the trolls

@AngryNord

Not trolling I genuinely believe everything I'm saying (even if I do intentionally use some words & sentences to annoy people) and if someone feels I'm being unfair or have any argument as to why content shouldn't scale to their level other than the ones I posted in OP. I invite them to post them .

Weird thing is since I made my post, everybody LOL's my comments, says I'm being disrespectful, "how do you know that's what we want" (my personal favorite, especially when it's not followed by "This is what I want") etc etc etc but nobody has actually said: Hey you're wrong, I don't want dungeon scaling because....

Seriously? Genuinely not trolling but "Intentionally using words to annoy people"? me thinks you do not know the meaning of the word if this is what you truly believe!



I never said I didn't want scaling because that's not what I wanted. My entire dialog with you has been about your dismissive attitude towards people who don't fit your idea of an MMO player. I've been playing MMO's for as
long as MMO's have been around. Probably longer than you've been shaving.

Elsonso

EDIT: Did you hear about the restaurant they opened on the moon? Great food but lacks atmosphere.

Sotha_Sil

TL;DR.

But I definitely agree that Zenimax is going in the right direction with Update 5. Hopefully, Update 6 will be awesome !

TehMagnus

Cuyler wrote: »

There's quite a lot of irony in these statements. You first say that building code for a sliding scale system would be a daunting task. Then you go on to say that the harder VR content is a good thing because it pushes players to get better.

I fail to see the relation between them.

Cuyler wrote: »

I can't help but wonder if the devs were to actually work on coding the harder sliding scale system wouldn't it then push them harder to get better? Why should devs be off the hook for what they get paid for (aka. "developing") and paying players be the only ones forced to improve?

They don't need to improve, they need to work on things that matter and are worth developing. The idea behind the current system is enough to avoid any difficulty wall so It's useless for them to waste time on a difficulty scaling system where the players choose the difficulty of the content.

Cuyler wrote: »

In addition I don't agree that alienating and entire segment (not to mention significantly larger portion) of your paying customer base just to keep a small hardcore portion of the entire community is the way to create longevity in any market.

I don't see how this alienates anyone. The content is clearable by non hardcore players it's just not easy as pie anymore. It only alienates people who don't want any difficulty what so ever and wants an easy game and I highly doubt a larger portion of the community is like that.

Cuyler wrote: »

The truth is the sliding scale system would let everyone have their cake and eat it too. for all.

Edits: Just for the record I enjoy the change as well, agree with you there, I just feel it should be adjustable.

I don't since if it's adjustable nobody will bother trying to do the slightly harder content and it will defeat one of the aims of the change which is to make people think about what they are doing and improve. I've ran all the dungeons from the undaunted dayilies so far and the only one that was really harder than previously was BC and it's prolly because blocking is broken the others are still pretty easy to complete.

TehMagnus

Zorrashi wrote: »

Won't lie. The moment I read "gear grind" and then "skill grind" I almost disregarded the post. Can not even begin to tell you how much those ideas become a major turn off for me if it becomes paramount in the game. It may be fine in moderation, but if that becomes the point of the game I'd rather transfer to one that would satiate my needs. (No offence to you personally, as this is just an opinion).

I can't say for certain your ideal of vertical progression will kill the game. That seems far to presumptuous given the evidence (or lack thereof). But I do know one thing for certain; there are many who hold similar ideals as me. They would favor a more sandbox-esque game, preferring horizontal progression over vertical. More, ahem, 'passionate' players will claim that sandbox is undoubtedly the future of MMOs and that vertical progression is poison, but all I see in the matter is merely an alternative on how to enjoy a game.

I don't think I will ever see a radical horizontal/sandbox transformation of the game, nor do I expect it to. But I certainly don't want at least some of the aforementioned aspects to be totally forgotten and botched. The game would loose a great amount of its appeal otherwise.

To be blunt, I think that your ideal is hazardous to the game in that it only appeals to a certain variety of players instead of combination of various groups. Sort of like leaning to one side of the political spectrum and not toward the moderate center where the majority of the people lie.

That being said, most previous updates including the current certainly do their job in enriching the game in various aspects for mainly the group-minded, with a decent amount of non-Craglorn related content and quality of life additions.

At last someone making an argument.

All I'll say about this is that there is still a lot of horizontal progression (it's mainly what the game has) and while the gear grind does provide nice stuff it wont hinder the players who don't want to get into it and just use crafted gear. Will it make some armors inaccessible to people who refuse to do some content: yes. Then again it's the case for almost all MMORPGS.

As for my idea being hazardous, all the MMORPGS who have been major successes have vertical progression and not much horizontal progression. This game has had mainly horizontal progression and has failed to deliver as promised, bleeding subs quickly. I don't think ZOS will abandon horizontal progression and still think those of us who crave vertical progression won't have the systems we can dream of but at least it's a first step in the right direction to make this game work again.

TehMagnus

Cuyler wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Weird thing is since I made my post, everybody LOL's my comments, says I'm being disrespectful, "how do you know that's what we want" (my personal favorite, especially when it's not followed by "This is what I want") etc etc etc but nobody has actually said: Hey you're wrong, I don't want dungeon scaling because....

I think they have and your simply choosing selectively what to hear. The scaling is not doable for some if not most casual players. Your choosing to paint casuals as one broad brush....

These are human beings with all sorts of socioeconomic backgrounds all with different amounts of playtime and competence that just want to enjoy what they paid money for. Not simply just "casuals". Some have health issues (i.e. arthritis) and can't compete at their current level and need to over level. They still have a challenge when overleveled.

You and this system are currently pigeon-holing all of them. We need a sliding scale to cater to every walk of ESO player.

Other MMOs don't have scaling systems and still are successful? How do you explain that? Because casuals aren't playing them? I doubt so. Everybody can improve if they wish to and try to and try to. There is bound to be some content in a game that is too hard for people to complete, you can't expect to be able to complete everything, at least not in a game I'd like to play and thankfully this one isn't like that.

I don't see why all the content in a multiplayer game should be clearable by everybody and if they want to do the dungeons they can still do the non veteran version.

In the end this is just like Arena or trials normal/hard mode. If you want to clear the dungeon there is an easy version (normal mode) and a hard version (veteran mode). If you can't clear veteran mode then you need to try harder & improve or just not do it.

Edit: Oh and this still fits my original description of the players who don't want dungeon scaling because "they want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge".