Update 5 - First step in an awesome direction

TehMagnus

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

@Rudyard Please don't feed the trolls

@AngryNord

Not trolling I genuinely believe everything I'm saying (even if I do intentionally use some words & sentences to annoy people) and if someone feels I'm being unfair or have any argument as to why content shouldn't scale to their level other than the ones I posted in OP. I invite them to post them .

Weird thing is since I made my post, everybody LOL's my comments, says I'm being disrespectful, "how do you know that's what we want" (my personal favorite, especially when it's not followed by "This is what I want") etc etc etc but nobody has actually said: Hey you're wrong, I don't want dungeon scaling because....

Seriously? Genuinely not trolling but "Intentionally using words to annoy people"? me thinks you do not know the meaning of the word if this is what you truly believe!



I never said I didn't want scaling because that's not what I wanted. My entire dialog with you has been about your dismissive attitude towards people who don't fit your idea of an MMO player. I've been playing MMO's for as
long as MMO's have been around. Probably longer than you've been shaving.

You're entitled to think what ever you want and we can compare *** sizes about who's been playing longer if you want. Doesn't make all I said about those players less true and doesn't make me less right. ZOS has been catering to the needs of those people since game start and the game has failed because of it.

And no, it's not trolling since I'm making an argument and just refusing to sugar code what I say to avoid hurting feelings or getting people mad (which is working wonders with you). If it was the case, all my posts would be moderated after the flagging from all you haters and it's not the case

NadiusMaximus

The only reason they did this is to slow people down from progressing too fast. It's not an easy vs. Hard debate, it's a make existing content last longer for console release vs. New content.

Parrotbrain

magnusnet wrote: »

Update 5 is a turning point in this game in my opinion regarding PVE content at least.

There is still horizontal progression being added with the crafting daylies and at some extent the undaunted quests but we finally have some vertical progression: Stuff do do, stuff to grind in order to improve our characters further, loot that makes us rerun instances over and over again in order to get the good traits on the new armors, the loot from Arena HM is stabilized after level 6.

There is still work to be done on the rewards like the fact that no mater our position on weekly trials we still get one item we can't trade when PVP players get 6+ items if they're on top positions. If weekly position had an influence on the loot quantity and quality as well as allowing people to trade/sell the sucky armors like the Heavy or the Medium would be really nice! Some work should also be done to limit the random traits from the new sets so that it doesn't become a real endless grind just to get 5 pieces with the correct traits. At least when I clear content, I no longer have the feeling I've just spent hours working for literally nothing.

Dungeon scaling brings back some challenge into the game forcing people to actually play smart instead of just steamrolling everything on easy mode. The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion. ZOS just needs to make sure that the difficulty doesn't become a wall like VR areas used to be so that people now have a challenge but can still complete the instances they must also make sure that, if they end up nerfing the scalable content, it doesn't become a piece of cake again.

Looks like ZOS really got it right this time and is moving in the right direction, finally catering to the needs of MMO players who might end up returning to the game.

Patch content: 10/10! please keep on it and put more vertical progression to the game!

Edit: Oh and the ornate traits in many of the loot items is also a very nice addition as well as the gold we can loot from most dead NPCs. This should help most decent players not loose money while just playing the game at VR levels.

Please quote the research that has been done; Generalization just weakens your argument and in this case is laughable. I completely disagree with you. Just because soloing old content is not YOUR playstyle, why deprive it from others who find it enjoyable and fun? Some people (read introverts) do not enjoy grouping with other players, and in random groups I have often encountered rude and obnoxious players that put me off grouping. Then there is the question of the skill points. Now players will be FORCED to group to get the skillpoints for those lower level dungeons which in my opinion is unfair.

That said I do feel that a challenge is still sometimes enjoyable, so for all the PVE instances why not scale it to the number of people as well as the level so that it still presents a challenge? That way people can still get the skill point without being forced to group, and the elitists can shut up about everything not being "handed on a platter"

TehMagnus

lordrichter wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Update 5 is a turning point in this game in my opinion regarding PVE content at least.

Dungeon scaling brings back some challenge into the game forcing people to actually play smart instead of just steamrolling everything on easy mode. ... [snip] ... ZOS just needs to make sure that the difficulty doesn't become a wall like VR areas used to be so that people now have a challenge but can still complete the instances

Looks like ZOS really got it right this time and is moving in the right direction, finally catering to the needs of MMO players who might end up returning to the game.

I don't always agree with @magnusnet, but on the above I agree. I think that Dungeon Scaling is a significant step in the right direction. I never expected it to be perfect and polished, but they are on the right track and as they continue to refine and tune, it will get better. (Not that everyone will think so)

As it is currently implemented and tuned, solo scaling is a win for solo players. This definitely goes in the "proof ZOS cares about solo players" column. I can say this because I am a solo player. I have grouped with someone maybe two times since April and I have never been in a group larger than three.

I entered Update 5 with some nervousness. I was in favor of an opt-out system and was seriously concerned that they were going to ruin the game for me. After actually playing with it, and then sitting down and thinking about what happened, I admit that my nervousness was unfounded and I no longer think solo scaling needs to be optional.

It needs to be tuned. I like the idea of a difficulty slider, but mostly it is so that I don't have to wait for them to tune it. Honestly, I don't want to have to mess with a difficulty slider and I don't want the added complexity in the game code. Properly built, this system does not need an opt-out or a slider.

Sorry, I cannot speak on group dungeon scaling.

Undaunted and Crafting Writs... goodness. The crafting dailies and the Undaunted dailies give me hope that there will eventually be Mage and Fighter's Guild dailies. I can use the crafting writs for the characters I am leveling crafting skills. I can see why people who are already max level would not be as excited. I don't group, so I will never use the Undaunted stuff, but this is the sort of thing I want to see for the other Guilds.

And I haven't tried solo content yet since Update 5 (still I have all the main quest to do with my VR14 NB so I'll get on it soon) but I totally agree with you. Wish more people would see it your way.

In theory, Update 5 really introduces a balance between what solo players want (at least some of them) which is a challenging game that doesn't pose a difficulty wall you can't overcome and group/dedicated players who want a challenge when they play.

It does not leave room for people who just want to be godlike and steamroll through storyline with their max leveled character just to experience the story, then again I don't believe MMORPGs or at least good ones should cater to those players.

TehMagnus

Parrotbrain wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Update 5 is a turning point in this game in my opinion regarding PVE content at least.

There is still horizontal progression being added with the crafting daylies and at some extent the undaunted quests but we finally have some vertical progression: Stuff do do, stuff to grind in order to improve our characters further, loot that makes us rerun instances over and over again in order to get the good traits on the new armors, the loot from Arena HM is stabilized after level 6.

There is still work to be done on the rewards like the fact that no mater our position on weekly trials we still get one item we can't trade when PVP players get 6+ items if they're on top positions. If weekly position had an influence on the loot quantity and quality as well as allowing people to trade/sell the sucky armors like the Heavy or the Medium would be really nice! Some work should also be done to limit the random traits from the new sets so that it doesn't become a real endless grind just to get 5 pieces with the correct traits. At least when I clear content, I no longer have the feeling I've just spent hours working for literally nothing.

Dungeon scaling brings back some challenge into the game forcing people to actually play smart instead of just steamrolling everything on easy mode. The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion. ZOS just needs to make sure that the difficulty doesn't become a wall like VR areas used to be so that people now have a challenge but can still complete the instances they must also make sure that, if they end up nerfing the scalable content, it doesn't become a piece of cake again.

Looks like ZOS really got it right this time and is moving in the right direction, finally catering to the needs of MMO players who might end up returning to the game.

Patch content: 10/10! please keep on it and put more vertical progression to the game!

Edit: Oh and the ornate traits in many of the loot items is also a very nice addition as well as the gold we can loot from most dead NPCs. This should help most decent players not loose money while just playing the game at VR levels.

Please quote the research that has been done; Generalization just weakens your argument and in this case is laughable. I completely disagree with you. Just because soloing old content is not YOUR playstyle, why deprive it from others who find it enjoyable and fun? Some people (read introverts) do not enjoy grouping with other players, and in random groups I have often encountered rude and obnoxious players that put me off grouping. Then there is the question of the skill points. Now players will be FORCED to group to get the skillpoints for those lower level dungeons which in my opinion is unfair.

That said I do feel that a challenge is still sometimes enjoyable, so for all the PVE instances why not scale it to the number of people as well as the level so that it still presents a challenge? That way people can still get the skill point without being forced to group, and the elitists can shut up about everything not being "handed on a platter"

All I'll reply to this is what I always reply. This is a multiplayer game, an MMORPG that requires you to group to clear part of it's content. It's the way this game and hundreds of others are made. Nobody is forcing you to play it.

Nobody is forcing you either to group to get skillpoints since nobody is forcing you to get those skillpoints, you can have a perfectly leveled character without those group dungeon skillpoints and still have enough skillpoints to enjoy the game.

I really don't see the point of playing an MMORPG (and expect to be able to experience all the content it brings to the table) if all you want to do is play solo anyways, never will. And catering to those people needs ruins the experience for MMO players.

pppontus

Actually tried both normal and vet dungeon scaling yesterday, and I absolutely loved it! Tbh it wasn't particularly difficult, we cleared Vet Sewers twice both with mains and alts without a wipe but you could actually see the mechanics now, and you're forced to actually play smart rather than kill the boss before he can do the mechanic even once or twice. It was a little bit harder when we were on alts and we all played different roles than we are used to, but that was really fun too!

The normal dungeons scaled up are still quite weak and not really challenging for us, but I think that should probably be kept like that so that there is an easier option and that the "normal" daily can still be completed by most, if not all, groups.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Not to mention that hardcore players are the cement that holds a population together..

What elitists like you fail to bear in mind is that without the 'casuals' you and the OP clearly despise there IS NO GAME that needs a population you think you 'cement'.

If all those you despise left the game would close, there aren't enough of you to keep the lights on alone.

Parrotbrain

magnusnet wrote: »

Parrotbrain wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Update 5 is a turning point in this game in my opinion regarding PVE content at least.

There is still horizontal progression being added with the crafting daylies and at some extent the undaunted quests but we finally have some vertical progression: Stuff do do, stuff to grind in order to improve our characters further, loot that makes us rerun instances over and over again in order to get the good traits on the new armors, the loot from Arena HM is stabilized after level 6.

There is still work to be done on the rewards like the fact that no mater our position on weekly trials we still get one item we can't trade when PVP players get 6+ items if they're on top positions. If weekly position had an influence on the loot quantity and quality as well as allowing people to trade/sell the sucky armors like the Heavy or the Medium would be really nice! Some work should also be done to limit the random traits from the new sets so that it doesn't become a real endless grind just to get 5 pieces with the correct traits. At least when I clear content, I no longer have the feeling I've just spent hours working for literally nothing.

Dungeon scaling brings back some challenge into the game forcing people to actually play smart instead of just steamrolling everything on easy mode. The part of the community complaining about this are just solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion. ZOS just needs to make sure that the difficulty doesn't become a wall like VR areas used to be so that people now have a challenge but can still complete the instances they must also make sure that, if they end up nerfing the scalable content, it doesn't become a piece of cake again.

Looks like ZOS really got it right this time and is moving in the right direction, finally catering to the needs of MMO players who might end up returning to the game.

Patch content: 10/10! please keep on it and put more vertical progression to the game!

Edit: Oh and the ornate traits in many of the loot items is also a very nice addition as well as the gold we can loot from most dead NPCs. This should help most decent players not loose money while just playing the game at VR levels.

Please quote the research that has been done; Generalization just weakens your argument and in this case is laughable. I completely disagree with you. Just because soloing old content is not YOUR playstyle, why deprive it from others who find it enjoyable and fun? Some people (read introverts) do not enjoy grouping with other players, and in random groups I have often encountered rude and obnoxious players that put me off grouping. Then there is the question of the skill points. Now players will be FORCED to group to get the skillpoints for those lower level dungeons which in my opinion is unfair.

That said I do feel that a challenge is still sometimes enjoyable, so for all the PVE instances why not scale it to the number of people as well as the level so that it still presents a challenge? That way people can still get the skill point without being forced to group, and the elitists can shut up about everything not being "handed on a platter"

All I'll reply to this is what I always reply. This is a multiplayer game, an MMORPG that requires you to group to clear part of it's content. It's the way this game and hundreds of others are made. Nobody is forcing you to play it.

Nobody is forcing you either to group to get skillpoints since nobody is forcing you to get those skillpoints, you can have a perfectly leveled character without those group dungeon skillpoints and still have enough skillpoints to enjoy the game.

I really don't see the point of playing an MMORPG (and expect to be able to experience all the content it brings to the table) if all you want to do is play solo anyways, never will. And catering to those people needs ruins the experience for MMO players.

MMORPG -MASSIVELY multiplayer online roleplaying game

Nothing in that term suggests forced grouping, does it? Many players playing, yes but there is no mention in this term of forced grouping.

The reason why many solo people prefer the MMO franchise is because of the "MASSIVELY" aspect.

Most MMORPGs have development cycles that can last for more than a decade with continually added new content. I personally know of no single-player game that does the same - basically they add maybe a few DLCs and one expansion, or two if you are lucky, and that is the end of the line for your character. One cannot develop his or her storyline further. Take Skyrim for example, they had three or four DLCs and no expansion and that was basically the end of the line for the game (where developer support was concerned). No new official lore, no new continuity to the main story line - that is it(your character couldn't even travel out of Skyrim and see the rest of the world). If I am lucky I could wait for the sequel 4-6 years down the line by which time I would have already stopped playing the game.

I wish people stop suggesting that people should play "single player" games if they want to play solo in MMOs - it's not the same thing.

I invest a lot of time in my character, why should I not be able to have as much fun in my way as other players? Why should the developers not cater to the solo segment of the game? Just because I do not want to continually interact with other people does not mean I do not enjoy the presence of other players. I enjoy the economy and crafting for one thing.

I know no one is forcing me to get skillpoints, but if it is what I like to do by myself for fun, why should there be such a significant barrier in the way for me to do it? How do you know what I find enjoyable or not? If they scale the instances to the number of players, no one would be forcing you to do it by yourself, so why do you expect me to be forced to group if I want to improve my character by getting more skillpoints?

Nobody is forcing me to sub to this game, but yet here I am, putting bread on the table for the developers and their families, and ensuring that the project continues and more content gets developed to the benefit of all. Why then, do some players feel that not everyone has an equal say when we are all contributing an equal amount to the benefit of the game? Should all the solo/casual players then unsubscribe and go back to playing "single player games?" Would that make the players that want forced grouping for all happy? I personally feel that if the situation continues with the lack of repeatable high-level solo content this may be the case sooner or later until something changes. Maybe Dragon Age III and Warlords of Draenor will be good company until then.

pppontus

Who ever said solo players shouldn't get anything? I have literally never heard that.. the point is: don't destroy group content by making it so easy that you don't have to work for it.

They should indeed put out dailies for soloers as well, maybe some scaled solo delves or whatever.

This thread is about Update 5 and how good it is for group players, which is what 100% of the people I have met in game wanted.

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Not to mention that hardcore players are the cement that holds a population together..

What elitists like you fail to bear in mind is that without the 'casuals' you and the OP clearly despise there IS NO GAME that needs a population you think you 'cement'.

If all those you despise left the game would close, there aren't enough of you to keep the lights on alone.

I don't despise casuals, there are no casuals. Only players that invest more or less time in a game and it is normal in our minds (and in the minds of MMO makers) that people who invest more time to get better and clear more content should be rewarded for it. It also the way 99% of MMOs work, we're not the ones trying to change how things are done, people like you are. And fact is MMORPGs have been successful for decades with this system.

TehMagnus

Parrotbrain wrote: »

MMORPG -MASSIVELY multiplayer online roleplaying game

Nothing in that term suggests forced grouping, does it? Many players playing, yes but there is no mention in this term of forced grouping.

The reason why many solo people prefer the MMO franchise is because of the "MASSIVELY" aspect.

Most MMORPGs have development cycles that can last for more than a decade with continually added new content. I personally know of no single-player game that does the same - basically they add maybe a few DLCs and one expansion, or two if you are lucky, and that is the end of the line for your character. One cannot develop his or her storyline further. Take Skyrim for example, they had three or four DLCs and no expansion and that was basically the end of the line for the game (where developer support was concerned). No new official lore, no new continuity to the main story line - that is it(your character couldn't even travel out of Skyrim and see the rest of the world). If I am lucky I could wait for the sequel 4-6 years down the line by which time I would have already stopped playing the game.

Just wait 4-6 years and play other solo games in the mean time? MMO doesn't mention forced grouping then again, 90% of MMORPGs have content reserved for grouping. If you're chasing the utopia of a never ending solo game that you share with other people: "This is not the game you're looking for".

Parrotbrain wrote: »

I wish people stop suggesting that people should play "single player" games if they want to play solo in MMOs - it's not the same thing.

I invest a lot of time in my character, why should I not be able to have as much fun in my way as other players? Why should the developers not cater to the solo segment of the game? Just because I do not want to continually interact with other people does not mean I do not enjoy the presence of other players. I enjoy the economy and crafting for one thing.

I know no one is forcing me to get skillpoints, but if it is what I like to do by myself for fun, why should there be such a significant barrier in the way for me to do it? How do you know what I find enjoyable or not? If they scale the instances to the number of players, no one would be forcing you to do it by yourself, so why do you expect me to be forced to group if I want to improve my character by getting more skillpoints?

Because that's how the game is made, because a lot of people want to play together and if everybody can play alone there there's not much need for player interaction and because, once again, MMOs are not designed so you can achieve everything alone and that's a good thing .

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Nobody is forcing me to sub to this game, but yet here I am, putting bread on the table for the developers and their families, and ensuring that the project continues and more content gets developed to the benefit of all. Why then, do some players feel that not everyone has an equal say when we are all contributing an equal amount to the benefit of the game? Should all the solo/casual players then unsubscribe and go back to playing "single player games?"

Many solo players can deal with the fact they can't experience the whole content of an MMO while playing alone. If you cannot grasp or understand that concept or don't agree with it then yeah, unsub and go play solo games because I doubt it's going to change.

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Would that make the players that want forced grouping for all happy? I personally feel that if the situation continues with the lack of repeatable high-level solo content this may be the case sooner or later until something changes. Maybe Dragon Age III and Warlords of Draenor will be good company until then.

Despite what you can think it wouldn't makes us happy. But what would make us unhappy is the game getting ruined by being completely soloable and by allowing players to get all the loot available while playing alone. It's just not what we are looking for when we come to MMORPgames. You have the possibility to experience solo content in solo games, we don't have the option to go play other kinds of games MMORPGs is all we have and we don't want it ruined by people who can't patiently wait for the next TES.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Damn it, guys, this was a positive post about a feature everyone agreees is good for the game and your ruin it with white knighting for players that don't need to be defended.

3 god damned pages! ***** pages!

If you hadn't pointed it out, nobody would have cared because most people can read through the lines and understand the underlying meaning instead of wasting everyone's time with nitpicking.

- Scaling is a good change.
- It needs some tweaking, maybe even an option to run a "non scalled" version.
- Games that offer no challenge have no longevity. Look at the history of gaming.

Dayel

Why do not we discuss the good and/or bad aspects of this Update as we see them, without rehashing the eternal arguments about styles of play. All of us are here for our own reasons, and as long as we obey the rules, pay our subscriptions and behave with civility, there is no need to debate these points ad nauseam.

helediron

Huh, guilds are full of online people. People are all over Tamriel instead idling in Rawl'kha. Scaled dungeons are again hard&fun, City of Ash is awesome. Yes, Imriel wiped us many times, until we learned the ropes. Doing writs and killing dwemers by hundreds. Too much to do. This patch is awesome.

ExiledKhallisi

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

The part of the community complaining about this are just??? solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion.

The l33tnezz of this statement is just dripping with joy juice! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside! Really! I LOVE being told what I want! HONEST! It just makes my day! The whole "just solo/casual players" comment is just ooozing with respect for a healthy segment of the people in this game. I feel so moved!

Being hit for 4000 unblockable damage while fighting a boss with 200k health in a 4 man GRP (try to imagine 2 DPS trying to do 200kdmg) is not difficulty, its stupidity.


Talking about the new scaled vet elden hollow

Valymer

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

The part of the community complaining about this are just??? solo/casual players who want an easy mode game that doesn't involve any challenge because in their minds "games are supposed to be for fun and not hard", yet, any study will prove that easy games don't hold the players attention for long so this is a very good change in my opinion.

The l33tnezz of this statement is just dripping with joy juice! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside! Really! I LOVE being told what I want! HONEST! It just makes my day! The whole "just solo/casual players" comment is just ooozing with respect for a healthy segment of the people in this game. I feel so moved!

Being hit for 4000 unblockable damage while fighting a boss with 200k health in a 4 man GRP (try to imagine 2 DPS trying to do 200kdmg) is not difficulty, its stupidity.


Talking about the new scaled vet elden hollow

briandivisionb16_ESO

Removal of fwcamps was awesome too! Thx ZOS!

KenjiJU

bellanca6561n wrote: »

It's a silly point of course because the term MMO didn't exist until the late '90s and citing what the letters stand for is just as silly because the genre has outgrown its acronym. You don't call members of the NAACP colored people.

I feel that at least a few games I liked previously would've lasted a bit longer if 'MMO' wasn't slapped on them by media sites and players simply for having online multiplayer. Those same people end up ruining it for themselves.

Kungfu

bellanca6561n wrote: »

...this forum represents the community for this game about as well as a bouncer represents a club...

Omg... best.. quote.. ever.
Can I put you in my sig for this, @bellanca6561n‌ ?

bellanca6561n

Kungfu wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

...this forum represents the community for this game about as well as a bouncer represents a club...

Omg... best.. quote.. ever.
Can I put you in my sig for this, @bellanca6561n‌ ?

Thanks.