There's almost no reason to group a sorc in pve

Aeratus

Among the 3 best ranked teams in [EU] this week:
- 39% DK
- 30% NB
- 17% Templar
- 14% Sorc

Just an EU style. I'm pretty sure in NA, Sorc is more popular than NB.

Gyudan

midnight_tea wrote: »

Ultimate - Overload: prevents you from using weapon abilities, so no crushing shock, healing springs or combat prayer while it's on. Useless.

Useless? It's not useless, what it is, is OP. It's basically the best Sorc DPS ult and you can use class abilities while it's toggled... Just throw in crit surge and watch the DPS meter, you'll be amazed.

Also, I don't think you've ever used mage's wrath/crystal frags/velocious curse combo...

Please, do you even trial? :disagree:
Your build does not bring optimal DPS for a sorcerer. How high can you go? What's your current AA/HR best time?

Voodoo wrote: »

patch is not even 24hr old and already theres a huge in justice done to at least one class.

Lets see this thread Sorcerer injustice.

Now I just have to find DK,NB,Temp. threads of injustice.

This has very little to do with update 5. It's not even up on the EU server yet.

Aeratus wrote: »

Among the 3 best ranked teams in [EU] this week:
- 39% DK
- 30% NB
- 17% Templar
- 14% Sorc

Just an EU style. I'm pretty sure in NA, Sorc is more popular than NB.

Then please show us the NA rankings, I'm dying to see how many DKs are being used on the other side of the Ocean.

edit: all I could find was this old screen:

- 3 DKs (only!)
- 6 NBs
- 1 Templar
- 2 Sorc

Divad Zarn

Oh God... While Sorc are almost usefull in trials (besides of negate when 2 sorcs in group needs everywhere) its TOTALLY usefull class in 4 group dungeons since it have GREAT AOE damage, sorc strong side is aoe damage, so use it with brains, imo in each 4 player group from 1.5 sorcs will be warmly welcome.

midnight_tea

Please, do you even trial? :disagree:

Considering I'm in hardcore NA raiding guild - yes, I actually do.

Your build does not bring optimal DPS for a sorcerer. How high can you go? What's your current AA/HR best time?

The lazy weekly I've done for coffers last week was at 14 mins and only because one person DCd. I've regularly done AA and Hel Ra hard modes as well as killed Mantikora and reached the last boss with mah guildies numerous times. I missed my chance to be in a group who downed Serpent this Saturday, but will likely get my green dye tomorrow or sometime this week

Also - lol, I never said anything about using velocious/mw/frags as a trial build - my own is crushing shock/crystal shards proc most frequently, since I do more dmg with it than crushing/elemental drain. Velocious however is oftentimes used by one person in the rotation to heighten their DPS and - situationally - so are other sorc abilities, be it daedric mines or lightning form (also, add a few more lightning abilities to the mix and thanks to disinegration passive you can get some crazy numbers, at least for AoE - I know a player who can pull even 7-9k).

So please - stop with the condescension. I don't personally consider myself the best raider there is, there are some latency issues I have due to being an EU player playing on NA side, but while I myself probably won't go higher than 1,3k sustained DPS on my sorc on rare occasion, I know people who pull 1,5 fairly easily.

Gyudan

@midnight_tea‌ : I'm having a hard time believing your numbers. With 1.3k sustained DPS you'd surely be able to give a better exemple for trial completion time than 14 minutes for AA. The 7-9k AoE DPS seems rather high to say the least.

Nerouyn

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If ZOS ever wants intelligent endgame PvE, they are going to have to come up with better mechanics that incorporate the ultimates and skills of all classes instead of just making monsters immune to all the more interesting skills and making it a DPS/Mitigation race.

There are alternatives. Better ones even.

Eg. designing content which doesn't rely on any class abilities.

Personally I think that's smarter and the direction they're probably heading in. Spellcrafting will include abilities which are present class specific and the option to make any spellcrafted ability an ultimate.

midnight_tea

I mentioned that we had 14 mins, because one person disconnected. I don't remember the time when we've done 9 minutes runs last though, since DF currently doesn't particularly care for those - not only the loot stopped being attractive, but people were mostly focused on vet DSA or progression in Serpent, so we only make quick, lazy runs for coffers every now and then.

The 7-9k burst AoE I witnessed in one of vet dungeons myself and it belonged to one of our best PvPers, who uses a specific but very effective lightning build.

Verdwhisper

midnight_tea wrote: »

No reason? When my guildies tried to clear Sanctum (DaFunk, done already), initially - seeing how strong NB had become - the group consistent predominantly out of NB DPS. The dungeon was eventually cleared with 5 sorcs and 2 NBs.

In fact, go and check leaderboards for Sanctum (or Vet DSA) and see how many sorcs there are. If DPS or utility was an issue, you'd see much less of them.

dafunk passing SO has nothing to do with class, it is about getting familiar with mechanics atm. I m not saying you cannot group sorcs, sure they can do some dps, but in 1.5, nb will have a much better dps than sorcs imo.

midnight_tea

1.5 single target, while SO and any other run does not just consist out of big boss fights, but also very nasty mobs. Believe me I know - I've been there more than a few times.

Don't get me wrong, NB's are great, with funnel healing people and charging the Veil, but when it comes to burst or AoE damage, Sorc has the advantage as well as the range that the DK doesn't have. Definitely versatility is sorc's strenght - they're also the best off-healers, as well as they have better survivability than NBs thanks to crit surge. Heals from sap or funnel can be very useful, but oftentimes they're just not enough in straining group situations.

Nightreaver

midnight_tea wrote: »

Ultimate - Overload: prevents you from using weapon abilities, so no crushing shock, healing springs or combat prayer while it's on. Useless.

Useless? It's not useless, what it is, is OP. It's basically the best Sorc DPS ult and you can use class abilities while it's toggled... Just throw in crit surge and watch the DPS meter, you'll be amazed.

Also, I don't think you've ever used mage's wrath/crystal frags/velocious curse combo...

I use Crit Surge with Overload for the heal but I don't see how it helps with the DPS or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

The only problem I've seen with the latest update regarding Sorcerers is the pet not receiving heals from the Resto staff Regeneration ability.

Verdwhisper

midnight_tea wrote: »

1.5 single target, while SO and any other run does not just consist out of big boss fights, but also very nasty mobs. Believe me I know - I've been there more than a few times.

Don't get me wrong, NB's are great, with funnel healing people and charging the Veil, but when it comes to burst or AoE damage, Sorc has the advantage as well as the range that the DK doesn't have. Plus, they're the best off-healers, hands down as well as they have better survivability than NBs thanks to crit surge. Heals from sap or funnel can be very useful, but oftentimes they're just not enough in straining group situations.

I understand that, but dps sorcs r just underdog. I agree that sorcs and do great aoe damage but those builds may not be great for trials. I think sorcs dps should be at least comparable to nb dps. Now nb have a sheer 20% dps buff and not mention that bow passive can buff their dps for another 12% because this passive can now buff class skills. I dont see sorcs can use bow to do dps atm, i will try to play with a bow a little bit.

midnight_tea

Since the tradeoff of PO is that we can't block while we damage, crit surge basically helps us survive using it on enemies, especially difficult ones or large mobs.

It's also one of the reasons sorcs excel in crushing shock/impulse build - aside from weapon dmg boost our crits heal us for the dmg done, which means that in tough situations (say, unavoidable AOE/dmg from boss or just frying mobs with impulse) we don't have to run or heal ourselves, we can just keep damaging.

NBs heal themselves as well with funnel health of course, but having an NB myself (VR11 atm) I've noticed that heals from funnel or sap are simply not enough to survive some tough situations.

Verdwhisper

midnight_tea wrote: »

Since the tradeoff of PO is that we can't block while we damage, crit surge basically helps us survive using it on enemies, especially difficult ones or large mobs.

It's also one of the reasons sorcs excel in crushing shock/impulse build - aside from weapon dmg boost our crits heal us for the dmg done, which means that in tough situations (say, unavoidable AOE/dmg from boss or just frying mobs with impulse) we don't have to run or heal ourselves, we can just keep damaging.

NBs heal themselves as well with funnel health of course, but having an NB myself (VR11 atm) I've noticed that heals from funnel or sap are simply not enough to survive some tough situations.

Sorcs have better survivability i agree but that does not help the team a lot.

midnight_tea

Ummm.... surviving and doing great DPS doesn't help the team? It's like saying that healers don't help the group much, if the only thing they do is heal or tanks don't help the group if the only thing they do is tank.

In fact, don't you see the benefit of survivability when you basically give your healers a breather or allow them to slot something that would actually provide some utility, instead of spamming heals to keep a DPS alive???
How does that not help the team?

Besides, I did mention that sorcs are great off-healers. In fact in group situations I'm usually the one who runs utility or some kind, predominantly off-heals - and of course CC on mobs or adds.

Anyway, I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see some improvements to some of sorcs abilities or would be glad to see more utility (give more time to lightning flood so people would actually use the synergy or something; buff pets), but I think most of them would be addressed in update 6, when Zeni will be working on buffing underused class abilities.

SteveCampsOut

This whole thread should have been called something else like Sorc's Suck at Trials because as a rule in general PVE, we rock just fine! I wasn't aware that Trials was the entire all encompassing only reason to group in PvE. God forbid I should group with people to heal at Dolmans or in Group or Public dungeons...

midnight_tea

Well no, but you've gotta admit that endgame content is what truly tests both players and balance between classes... Which is exactly why you don't see many templar DPS or DK healers there :P

It is especially true after the VR content nerf. I can still remember how hard it was pre-nerf, where a player could have been killed by a mudcrab, lol.

And now? Maybe 3 weeks ago, I've soloed the VR10 public dungeon group challenge on my templar. While not even trying (killed at 1st attempt) and wearing healer gear. In fact I solo basically everything now, from dolmens, wb's to pubs and some group dungeons with every class (VR14 sorc, VR14 templar, VR11 NB and VR6 DK).

What I want to say is basically solo content isn't really difficult, which doesn't make many people see problems with their builds or issues with classes.

SteveCampsOut

midnight_tea wrote: »

Well no, but you've gotta admit that endgame content is what truly tests both players and balance between classes... Which is exactly why you don't see many templar DPS or DK healers there :P

No actually, I don't have to admit that. Nor do I have to admit that that is what End Game content is supposed to do. I spent over 6 years playing DAoC and while the end game content was tougher than regular leveling, outside of the Trials of Atlantis, none of it required groups larger than 8 people and even that wasn't a total requirement in Atlantis once they toned down the invulnerability of those bosses. End Game content is "Supposed" to be engaging, not infuriating and off putting. It's supposed to make people actually want to continue playing day in and day out. It's a very RARE and small minority that thinks being constantly pushed to your limits is somehow enjoyable for the rest of the world.
It's certainly not for me.

Most of us play games to relax and enjoy ourselves and get away from the stresses of the real world. Yes, I know elitists are out there screaming right now that I am wrong, go take your Xanex. You are not now, nor have you ever been, the center of the gaming universe.

GamerzElite

If you are talking abt Trails then you cant beat Final boss in AA/Hel-Ra without a Sorcerer. I saw many time if Sorcerer die at final boss whole group died. First try any Trail without a Sorcerer and you will find ur answer.

midnight_tea

First things first - I meant it in context of ESO, not overall.

Second - I swear, the word "elitism" is way overused these days - we're getting to a point when having to put even slightest effort into something is being deemed as 'elitist'.

Look, you want to have relaxing time in ESO and 'rock just fine' while doing non-challenging content, that's fine - have fun, but then don't come here and start snarking at people for no reason other than 'you're elitist, bhoooo!'.

Finding issues and improving the balance between classes through completing more demanding content - and maybe petitioning for more varied content between just 'easy casual' and 'hardcore endgame' so even more players would enjoy it - eventually benefits everybody, not just hardcore players or PvEers.


And since I missed this earlier:

I understand that, but dps sorcs r just underdog. I agree that sorcs and do great aoe damage but those builds may not be great for trials. I think sorcs dps should be at least comparable to nb dps. Now nb have a sheer 20% dps buff and not mention that bow passive can buff their dps for another 12% because this passive can now buff class skills. I dont see sorcs can use bow to do dps atm, i will try to play with a bow a little bit.

... How is sorc DPS underdog -_-? DK is not really doing better than sorc in endgame - definitely not after the frag shield nerf.

Also - has anybody tested the bow passive? Because last time folks tested it, it only affected bow abilities.

And if it does (I can't see it being used anyway, the light attack weaving with destro/resto will provide more DPS/utility anyway) I can't see reason why sorcs wouldn't be as effective with bow.

Also - I can't see the reason why NB's specialty shouldn't be single target dmg. All classes specialize in something or have their strengths or weak points. Should they do comparable dmg while using comparable builds? Well yeah, probably, but there will/should always be things in which a certain class will shine or there will be some trade-offs. I mean, the reason why NBs have heals or cloak/fear/miss chance is because they have practically no CC/mitigation at all.

GamerzElite

Gyudan wrote: »

midnight_tea wrote: »

Ultimate - Overload: prevents you from using weapon abilities, so no crushing shock, healing springs or combat prayer while it's on. Useless.

Useless? It's not useless, what it is, is OP. It's basically the best Sorc DPS ult and you can use class abilities while it's toggled... Just throw in crit surge and watch the DPS meter, you'll be amazed.

Also, I don't think you've ever used mage's wrath/crystal frags/velocious curse combo...

Please, do you even trial? :disagree:
Your build does not bring optimal DPS for a sorcerer. How high can you go? What's your current AA/HR best time?

Voodoo wrote: »

patch is not even 24hr old and already theres a huge in justice done to at least one class.

Lets see this thread Sorcerer injustice.

Now I just have to find DK,NB,Temp. threads of injustice.

This has very little to do with update 5. It's not even up on the EU server yet.

Aeratus wrote: »

Among the 3 best ranked teams in [EU] this week:
- 39% DK
- 30% NB
- 17% Templar
- 14% Sorc

Just an EU style. I'm pretty sure in NA, Sorc is more popular than NB.

Then please show us the NA rankings, I'm dying to see how many DKs are being used on the other side of the Ocean.

edit: all I could find was this old screen:

- 3 DKs (only!)
- 6 NBs
- 1 Templar
- 2 Sorc

Why don't you try a Trail without Sorc if its all about DPS.

Zaenidd

one answer : they have negate, sorc are must have in trials

Skylandra

The only thing Sorc's lack is a decent DoT ability.
Good Shield - Hardened Ward
Good Mobility (even when in tallons) - Bolt Escape
Good Execute - Mages Wrath/Fury
Good CC - Shattering Prison
Good DPS buff/self heal - Critical Surge
Good Ranged AoE - Liquid Lightning
Good Ultimate selection's

Crystal shards proc can be okay - I don't use it much myself (even in PvP)
Daedric Mines can be a good option too.

I'll admit that I play my sorc as a DPS support and my DK as DPS or Tank but I still feel sorc played well is a must have in any group, both PvE and PvP

TehMagnus

You'll always need sorcs cuz negate.

Currently it does feel more like a support class with ok DPS.

Usually they are the ones putting the debuffs like elemental drain & stuff like that on the boss and off-healing as well. Since they do less DPS than NBs & DKs, we only take the bare minimum to have enough negates which means 1 sorc for AA and 1 or 2 for Hel Ra.

Still, negate is prolly one of the most useful ultimates (if not the mos useful) of the game.

Then again this has nothing to do with 1.5

Eucken

As one of the sorc's in the second place I can tell you our DPS is fine compared the NB or DK dmg. output.

Especially if you look at the much longer fights in the serpent Trial.

The only problems are in fights which only last like 30 sec. Because our burst dmg. ist pretty low but in a longer fight we will do as much and sometimes more dps. as other classes.

The only thing das is a real problem is our AOE dmg. which is very low or can only be generated by other via synergys.

Now here you could argue that it doesn't really matter who in the raid get credited for the dmg. as long as it is created.

And I would agree with that point to a degree. But there are also other things to consider while using syngerys. I find that my Ultimate generation is much lower with AOE spell that require someone else to use the syngergy. Which is especially a real big problem in PVP, because you get 24 Ultimate points per kill and not for the dmg you provide, so that someone else my kill the enemy.

The other problems with synergys is that there are only so much syngerys one can use and there my be other synergys, which you don'T really wanna use(like that show thing from the NB vale) in that situation so none get's used because there is no synergy luck factor.

And if noone uses your liquid lightning synergy you will generate less dmg. for the group regardless.

ps. does anyone know with what stat the atronach scales?

TehMagnus

Even in long fights, sorcs can't pull as much DPS as a good DK or a good NB using the correct builds & skills. If you compare great sorcs to average DKS or NB sure, but at equal skill, DKs are just on top of everything and NBs aren't too far behind.

Aeratus

I play both sorc and NB. On the HR warrior, my sorc is about 50 dps higher than my NB. So, based on all these people here saying that NB dps is much higher than sorc, is it just that my NB sucks?

ExiledKhallisi

Verdwhisper wrote: »

Correct me if I m wrong.
Why's that?
Let me see what sorcs can do.

Tank: DK tank is most preferable, Templar tank can be awesome, NB tank can throw down veils, sorc? Sometimes it is OK, but not that great.

Heal: Of course you want a Templar! Sorcs can only do off-heal and throw down negate in certain situation like the 2nd boss in AA and maybe negate nova in vr dsa stage 10. Also, talking about damage reduction of suppression field, since everyone's spell resistance soft-capped, it is almost laughable. BTW, you probably don't need a sorc to do that because a NB healer has veil! After all, Sorc ult can do nothing in SO.

DPS: NB>DK>=Sorc>=Templar, that's the case in 1.5 IMO. Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated. Oh, you saw sorcs did 2k dps for 1nd boss in AA? Tell you what, only DPS on 3rd and 4th boss matters, and btw, mines got nerfed!

What Sorcs can do now? Crushing shock of course! You can interrupt monsters' spell casting and they have a bit higher dps on crushing shock build compared to other classes and that' all about it.

I would also like to comment a little bit about Sorcs in pvp if you like. Thankfully, we can run, although not as good as pre-teleport nerf, we can negate other classes' ult which makes us feel a bit useful in big fights and it is not OP IMO, that's like the only thing Sorcs can do good. In duels? Sorcs are OK, but we suffer a great deal in stamina regen. Sorc is the only class that does not have stamina regen skills. Vamps and WW should not be discussed in this thread because it is just a comparison between classes.

I would like to see all your opinions about this, thanks.

Weird...I thought my ability to negate every pack of mobs and root entire rooms while pulling 1.5k single target dps was useful....according to you I was wrong =/

ExiledKhallisi

Not to mention... you said we have stamina problems..I never run out of stamina ever....

Vahrokh

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

Have you missed the memo in the last 3 months, where 2 sorcs (1 if well geared) is the absolute maximum you should take to trials? That's how much they are useful.

Oh, and that 1 sorc is only and exclusively admitted to trials because of negate magic, NOT for the DPS, NOT for the healing and certainly NOT for the tanking!

Vahrokh

GamerzElite wrote: »

If you are talking abt Trails then you cant beat Final boss in AA/Hel-Ra without a Sorcerer. I saw many time if Sorcerer die at final boss whole group died. First try any Trail without a Sorcerer and you will find ur answer.

Isn't it fun to feel useless for a whole trial and only useful for having pressed a button twice (two negates) without player skill having any real impact on the trial run? I mean, you can spend weeks min maxing, gearing all gold gear and then... all you'll be truly useful for... is because you can press "R" two times over a whole run.