There's almost no reason to group a sorc in pve

Verdwhisper

Correct me if I m wrong.
Why's that?
Let me see what sorcs can do.

Tank: DK tank is most preferable, Templar tank can be awesome, NB tank can throw down veils, sorc? Sometimes it is OK, but not that great.

Heal: Of course you want a Templar! Sorcs can only do off-heal and throw down negate in certain situation like the 2nd boss in AA and maybe negate nova in vr dsa stage 10. Also, talking about damage reduction of suppression field, since everyone's spell resistance soft-capped, it is almost laughable. BTW, you probably don't need a sorc to do that because a NB healer has veil! After all, Sorc ult can do nothing in SO.

DPS: NB>DK>=Sorc>=Templar, that's the case in 1.5 IMO. Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated. Oh, you saw sorcs did 2k dps for 1nd boss in AA? Tell you what, only DPS on 3rd and 4th boss matters, and btw, mines got nerfed!

What Sorcs can do now? Crushing shock of course! You can interrupt monsters' spell casting and they have a bit higher dps on crushing shock build compared to other classes and that' all about it.

I would also like to comment a little bit about Sorcs in pvp if you like. Thankfully, we can run, although not as good as pre-teleport nerf, we can negate other classes' ult which makes us feel a bit useful in big fights and it is not OP IMO, that's like the only thing Sorcs can do good. In duels? Sorcs are OK, but we suffer a great deal in stamina regen. Sorc is the only class that does not have stamina regen skills. Vamps and WW should not be discussed in this thread because it is just a comparison between classes.

I would like to see all your opinions about this, thanks.

Naivefanboi

sounds like you have valid concerns.
only thing i ever had against sorcs was bolt escape but ever since they seem to have fixed the combat leash bug they are not so hard to catch.

Aeratus

Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated.

Which type of NB build has 1.5k dps sustained in 1.5? Two handed?

sagitter

What are you talking about? from op title seems like they nerfet it , but it isn't i don t see any reason why sorc should be less effective than before. In pvp is a monster.

Warraxx

LOL, you are now an honorary stamina build.

Verdwhisper

sagitter wrote: »

What are you talking about? from op title seems like they nerfet it , but it isn't i don t see any reason why sorc should be less effective than before. In pvp is a monster.

It is not like they nerfed it, I think sorc dps was OK, but since they buffed nb dps, sorcs are no longer on the table.

Nestor

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

Verdwhisper

Aeratus wrote: »

Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated.

Which type of NB build has 1.5k dps sustained in 1.5? Two handed?

Old spell damage dps build can do that, stamina build also ok. Dual wield for the first 70%, execute with two handed.

Death Stroke:

This ability now deals 35% increased damage, and no longer scales up with increased Ultimate.
Death Stroke now increases the damage you deal to a target by 20% for 6 seconds.

Shunravi

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

You have never done trials, have you?

Verdwhisper

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

What are you talking about? DKs and Templars are must, and NB already had higher dps than sorc pre-patch, and veil is absolutely better than negate.

Aeratus

Verdwhisper wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated.

Which type of NB build has 1.5k dps sustained in 1.5? Two handed?

Old spell damage dps build can do that, stamina build also ok. Dual wield for the first 70%, execute with two handed.

Death Stroke:

This ability now deals 35% increased damage, and no longer scales up with increased Ultimate.
Death Stroke now increases the damage you deal to a target by 20% for 6 seconds.

There is no way the old NB magicka dps build can do 1.5k sustained dps on any real boss at this patch stage of the game (and by "real boss" I'm not talking about the first boss in AA/HR, both of which are worthless as indicators of dps). And don't forget that the resto-staff NB caster was nerfed last month to put NB casters more in line with destro-staff sorcs. So your assertion that NBs do 1.5k dps is not correct, and obviously an exaggeration.

Nestor

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

You have never done trials, have you?

Nope, and I never will. Running through a dungeon as fast as possible is not something that appeals to me, on any level. I just read all the complaints about how "Sticks and Skirts" are the only type of Build that worked in there, and I assumed that meant Sorcerers.....

Because to me, if your wearing Light Armor your not a Knight or Night Blade. But I am a traditionalist. And because I play a traditional role my DKs and NB's are not going to be invited anyway. That's OK, I have the other 95% of the game to play.

Verdwhisper

Aeratus wrote: »

Verdwhisper wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated.

Which type of NB build has 1.5k dps sustained in 1.5? Two handed?

Old spell damage dps build can do that, stamina build also ok. Dual wield for the first 70%, execute with two handed.

Death Stroke:

This ability now deals 35% increased damage, and no longer scales up with increased Ultimate.
Death Stroke now increases the damage you deal to a target by 20% for 6 seconds.

There is no way the old NB magicka dps build can do 1.5k sustained dps on any real boss at this patch stage of the game (and by "real boss" I'm not talking about the first boss in AA/HR, both of which are worthless as indicators of dps). And don't forget that the resto-staff NB caster was nerfed last month to put NB casters more in line with destro-staff sorcs. So your assertion that NBs do 1.5k dps is not correct, and obviously an exaggeration.

Some NB in dafunk did it, he used all the old equipment and build with the new death stroke, it is almost a 20% dps buff.

Shunravi

Nestor wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

You have never done trials, have you?

Nope, and I never will. Running through a dungeon as fast as possible is not something that appeals to me, on any level. I just read all the complaints about how "Sticks and Skirts" are the only type of Build that worked in there, and I assumed that meant Sorcerers.....

Because to me, if your wearing Light Armor your not a Knight or Night Blade. But I am a traditionalist. And because I play a traditional role my DKs and NB's are not going to be invited anyway. That's OK, I have the other 95% of the game to play.

I see just as many swords on my runs as I do staves and bows. If you still believe that worn BS then I feel sorry for you. I have personally done them both majica and stamina built on my Nightblade (so am I half sorc? )

I would gladly have you in my group (AD, NA). But then we come to your other issue; speed.

You know what? Not every group cares about speed. Join a training run sometime. Many guilds offer them to teach people the ropes. These runs certainly are not about time, they are about learning. So they don't care as much about wipes or mistakes, because hey, you are learning.

But hey, if you don't want to, I certainly can't force you. After all, you have another 95% of the game to enjoy.

indigoblades

I didnt see much nerfed on sorcs this release .... i would still think sorcs have the highest SUSTAINED dps or at least in same ball park since they have so much Magicka regin... if i am wrong tell me what has more sustained dps than a sorc running crystal frags, crit surge, bolt escape, endless fury.

i assume any cloth/staff user of any class will have some healing, mage light, ring o fire, force shock & maybe spell sym. with lots of spell crit/spell damage/spell cost reduction and magika regin bonus's & enchants. Those spells are common to all builds.

I am also going to assume stam builds cant sustain (but i am completely guessing on this, all my stamina players are pre vet)

Also i assume DK are meant to be OP ... so if they do everything better i am way past upset by that lol.

(i am VR8, i have never done trials and only few vet dungs. I mostly solo stuff but i have grouped with good PVE players whom tell my dps is good and i am very good for my level - i craft a lot so my armor has good bonuses and at least gold hat , chest and legs the rest purple.... i have lots of mats so i can make good armor/weapons, in pvp i think i kill more than i am killed but i have never measured that)

to be honest u just made me curious is all ... i am not questioning or attacking ur post.

xaraan

I enjoy my sorc, but he's not my main so I can't speak to him the same way I can a NB. He doesn't seem like he is any different after the patch, so I don't know that this has much to do with the patch today (maybe just a change over time). I do know the sorc can heal really well, the only time I've preferred a templar over a sorc for healing was in vet arena (way too many 1K, 2K, 3K, 4K hits lol) and of course everyone wants to have a couple for trials. But sorcs still do really good dps and have a lot of versatility IMO.

On a side note -- In smaller groups, we three-manned many dungeons and having a sorc do dps that can off-heal at the same time makes that work.

TheBull

My NB told me to tell you, "l2p OP".

Sleep

Any reason to group with sorcerers before 1.5?

AlexDougherty

Sleep wrote: »

Any reason to group with sorcerers before 1.5?

My sorceror can keep mobs away from the healer.

manny254

So you somehow have gathered this quality information even though the patch is brand new, and the servers are offline right now.

Verdwhisper

manny254 wrote: »

So you somehow have gathered this quality information even though the patch is brand new, and the servers are offline right now.

just edited, almost no reason to group a sorc, in this patch, sorc dps is BS compared to NB

Nestor

Shunravi wrote: »

I would gladly have you in my group (AD, NA). But then we come to your other issue; speed.

All the videos I have seen are people with Sticks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8EBaOTaY-o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4k998ne0o

Even when I searched for ESO Trials Melee I get this, although a couple of them do seem to have a sword out from time to time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6QSlggQ0Vc



Thanks I may try them someday, but I was watching some videos of the Library run and thinking to myself, doesn't anyone stop to read the books?

The other issue is the DPS aspect. As you can surmise, I don't play optimal builds as I like the challenge of taking a sub optimal character through the game. Otherwise I would try them. It's good they are there for the folks who like that kind of game play, it's just not something that interests me. I even poke around in dungeons that I am taking Alts through that I have already completed on another character.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Aeratus wrote: »

Sorcs cannot do 1.5k dps like NB in patch 1.5. If you can, tell me how to do it. It will be highly appreciated.

Which type of NB build has 1.5k dps sustained in 1.5? Two handed?

He is confusing burst damage with dps, that's all.

My VR9 NB son can hit well over 2000 when he attacks, but it goes away. My VR9 Sorc can do over 1000 dps for a really long time.

As well I have no idea of the dps when I go play in group dungeons. I run Inner Light, Critical Surge, Hardened Ward and Rings, Streak and Bats. I can go stand in 8 man groups and burn the whole thing down pretty quick. So 8x2500 is 20,000 hp and it takes less than 10 secs ..... no Bats just the magic of Critical Surge, 50% Spell Critical, Heavily Softcapped Max Magic, Softcapped Magic Regen and when Surge is on Weapon Power is very much softcapped.

Fun!

Cously

I never actually think I would see a thread where sorcerers complain about being useless. On the other hand all classes lines should be available to all players. Many games work without classes, and ESO have everything to shine with such system. With everyone with access to all lines the balance would be much better and next to no whinning.

eliisra

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

I think you're confusing sorcerer with "mage".

One is an actual class and one is a build, used by all classes.

Topic: Definitely seems sorc is lacking a bit in the dps department. Falling behind even more with this patch, sounds bad. Only Templar dps will perform worse, but even that seems up for debate as of recently. You also need at least 1-2 templars to heal, depending on instance. How many Negate-slaves do you need lol?

But the fundamental problem is really how successful trials are measured in dps, while classes will never be perfectly balanced around that. Hundreds here and there will always differ, making one class favoured as dps in timed trials (currently being NB) while others are left out.

midnight_tea

No reason? When my guildies tried to clear Sanctum (DaFunk, done already), initially - seeing how strong NB had become - the group consistent predominantly out of NB DPS. The dungeon was eventually cleared with 5 sorcs and 2 NBs.

In fact, go and check leaderboards for Sanctum (or Vet DSA) and see how many sorcs there are. If DPS or utility was an issue, you'd see much less of them.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

The greater problem is that the mechanics necessary for beating endgame PvE content are still mainly focused on damage mitigation and DPS. So of course classes with skills that offer group damage mitigation or superior DPS will be preferred.

Sorcs used to be valuable for negates (like on the 2nd boss of AA) but when people figured out you could chain novas and just burn down the boss before you even needed a negate, this was no longer the case.

If ZOS ever wants intelligent endgame PvE, they are going to have to come up with better mechanics that incorporate the ultimates and skills of all classes instead of just making monsters immune to all the more interesting skills and making it a DPS/Mitigation race.

Khivas_Carrick

Verdwhisper wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Your talking about Trials right? Isn't it nice that something else besides a Sorcerer can do these now?

What are you talking about? DKs and Templars are must, and NB already had higher dps than sorc pre-patch, and veil is absolutely better than negate.

DK's can DPS or Tank, Templars usually aren't sought after for Tank or DPS but rather healers. I believe both of your statements should be more focused towards that some classes are sort of pigeonholed into a set role at times. At least I think that's what the first quoted guy was trying to say.

Gyudan

Here is a look at the first 4 teams in the EU leaderboards this week.
I believe listing the classes they used will help understand the issue a bit better.

1st place - 9:35
- 4 DK
- 4 NB
- 2 Templar
- 2 Sorc

2nd place - 9:50
- 4 DK
- 4 NB
- 2 Templar
- 2 Sorc

3rd place - 10:56 (not a full team, most of them were from one of the groups ranked above)

4th place - 11:30
- 6 DK
- 3 NB
- 2 Templar
- 1 Sorc

Among the 3 best ranked teams in [EU] this week:
- 39% DK
- 30% NB
- 17% Templar
- 14% Sorc

[1st place]
[2nd place]
[4th place]

Conclusions:
- Templars still need some love.
- Yes, DKs and NBs bring way more DPS to a team than Sorcerers
- I believe Sorcerers need a DoT (Damage over Time) ability to effectively add to their DPS output. Right now all sorcerers do is spam Crushing Shock/Force Pulse with Critical Surge on and throw a Negate from time to time. This is honestly both boring to do and ineffective for DPS in comparison with other classes.
- Sorcerers can't heal as well as Templars / NBs either because they have (again) no ability other than the ones from resto staff that could benefit other team members.
- They are also much less effective at tanking as DKs and NBs.

TL;DR Sorcerers are good at nothing, just passable in every role. Please add a DoT


SORCERER CLASS ABILITIES IN TRIALS for DPS and HEALING purposes

Dark Magic: 2/6 useful
- Crystal Fragments: useful when 35% procs (stun is useless though)
- Encase: crowd control only, useless
- Rune Prison: crowd control only, useless
- Dark Exchange: very situational (self heal / restore mana while unable to use abilities and draining stamina)
- Daedric Mines: useless with 1.5
- Ultimate - Negate Magic: Useful

Daedric Summoning: 1/6 useful
- Unstable Familiar: all pets are useless
- Velocious (Daedric) Curse: not velocious at all (3.5 secs), very low damage, useless
- Summon Twilight: all pets are useless
- Bound Armaments: situational (maybe for tanks? I wouldn't use that)
- Conjured Ward: a shield on pets and yourself but not teammates, useless
- Ultimate - Summon Storm Astronach: good damage and duration, as long as it targets properly and doesn't stand around doing nothing, useful

Storm Calling: 2/6 useful
- Mage's Fury: good execute, useful
- Lightning Form: situational (good armor/spell resist buff but the speed boost is still slower than running)
- Lightning Splash: was bugged before 1.5, now it's fixed and useless
- Critical Surge: very useful, gives good health sustain, it's the only reason I'm still playing a Sorcerer
- Bolt Escape: very good everywhere else mostly for moving faster but useless in trials since you can't start a fight with your group 50 meters behind and it's not needed/appropriate to dodge boss AoEs
- Ultimate - Overload: prevents you from using weapon abilities, so no crushing shock, healing springs or combat prayer while it's on. Useless.


What I think needs to be modified:
- Sorcerers need an ability to heal or buff their teammates. Right now we have nothing. Even DKs give more to the group with their flaming swords/staves.
- Change Daedric Curse so that it gives continuous damage (DoT)
- We have too many useless Crowd Control abilities. It's even worse now that 1.5 increases the list of monsters immune to our CC. How about a 20% buff damage to abilities that are supposed to stun but can't because the target is immune? That would be a step in the right direction.
- We don't have enough options for direct damage. Right now there are 2 abilites in that category with strict requirements: Crystal Fragments only on the 35% chance that another ability has proced the insta-cast and Mage's Fury that is only useful is the target is under 20% hp. We need another one.

@ZOS_GinaBruno: could you pass this on to the team in charge of PVE Balance/content or should I use /feedback linking to this exact same post?

midnight_tea

Ultimate - Overload: prevents you from using weapon abilities, so no crushing shock, healing springs or combat prayer while it's on. Useless.

Useless? It's not useless, what it is, is OP. It's basically the best Sorc DPS ult and you can use class abilities while it's toggled... Just throw in crit surge and watch the DPS meter, you'll be amazed.

Also, I don't think you've ever used mage's wrath/crystal frags/velocious curse combo...

Voodoo

patch is not even 24hr old and already theres a huge in justice done to at least one class.

Lets see this thread Sorcerer injustice.

Now I just have to find DK,NB,Temp. threads of injustice.