On Exploits vs. Cheating

helediron

TRIP233 wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

I think this game should have these kind of "features". Those who count it as exploit can sneer at cheaters, and those who grind it can grin back to hypocrites.

I switched to grinding in Craglorn because the quests and grouping were too buggy. I hope the bugs disappear from ESO at some point in the future.

The questing and grouping is impossible to do when everyone wants to grind.

Well, some of us first tried to quest and group. When that was FUBAR, *then* we switched to grinding. We didn't start the fire.

Incarnatus

Cheat:

To act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Exploit:

To take advantage of a situation.

We are arguing semantics!

AlexDougherty

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So there was an interesting conversation in zone chat the other day, where someone was defending their use of the Bittermaw exploit. They repeatedly said that while it may be an exploit, it's not cheating.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, because it seems completely ridiculous to me that someone can deliberately exploit a bug in the game code in order to advance their character and get loot/XP and not call it cheating. And is there such a thing as a exploit that isn't cheating on some level? I've always used the word exploit to simply refer to a form of cheating that doesn't require illegal manipulation of the game code (as in botting, hacking, etc.).

Using an exploit is cheating, stuff the grey area arguement, you are using an aspect of the game in a way you know it's not supposed to used, this by any true definition is cheating.

You might be able to argue that if you didn't know it was an exploit, then it wouldn't be cheating. I'll accept that arguement, and leave aside the grey area of when suspecting becomes knowing.

But if you know it's an exploit, then it's cheating, because you know.

I also disregard the arguement that a cheat is external, plenty of games have built in cheat codes, built in cheats, a cheat is anything that bypasses the difficulty or design of the game.
It can be a slippery slop between a deliberate attempt to give players a fair chance, and a cheat. But not in the OPs description of the circumstances.

JessieColt

There is a difference between cheating and exploiting. I think that is the whole point of the argument on both sides.

As someone pointed out, cheating is "To act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."

There is no advantage to gain by grinding Bittermaw. You have access to the same loot, and same XP gain as anyone else who isn't grinding the boss. Grinding Bittermaw doesn't impart anything remotely considered cheating using the above definition. You are not getting better loot, or better XP rewards against killing any other boss level monster in the game. You are just doing it faster.

It very much is exploiting: "To take advantage of a situation".

An unintended consequence of killing Bittermaw but not the Welwa adds is that the boss respawns faster. Using that to your advantage to force the boss to respawn faster so that you can kill him more often and therefore earn XP faster is exploiting the mechanic that currently exists.

Should Zos fix this, yes.

Should anyone be banned for exploiting the game mechanic in a way that isn't cheating anyone else or doesn't have an impact on anyone elses game play, no.

The people who are grinding Bittermaw are not impacting anyone else with that they are doing. They are not keeping anyone else from earning XP, or from getting loot, or from harvesting nodes.

If the boss is required for a quest, then sure, that would be interference with the quest when the person who needs the quest is there to kill the boss.

As far as I know, there is no quest associated with killing Bittermaw or his adds.

Killing the adds doesn't prevent anyone from getting the loot from the kill, or from getting XP from the kill.

The biggest advantage over any of the other grinding in the game, including Anomalies, Tower, Thief, etc, is that there is that a merchant less than 2 seconds away which makes it easier to repair and sell stuff.

If the merchant were gone, I am sure that the number of players trying to grind Bittermaw would drop because of the need to leave the area to sell and repair.

onlinegamer1

GnatB wrote: »

The definition of a video game exploit is basically using a bug or design flaw to gain some sort of an advantage in a way the developers didn't intend.

According to this definition, using the "Streak" Sorc spell when it had no target cap was an exploit, because the developers never intended for it to have no cap (and now it caps at 6 people). So, every Sorc who used Streak prior to the cap was exploiting.

This is why there is no such thing as an exploit: because the only definition that works is the following one: "An exploit is anything ZoS says is an exploit". And as we all know, ZoS never talks about exploits.

Gulvar

It's probably generational. In the late 90's the words exploit and cheat were synonymous within gaming. However, in the past few years it has felt like the word exploit has been moving towards its actual meaning with fairness being somewhat relative at times.

I don't think the problem is with people calling cheating exploiting because that isn't wrong for a lot of reasons. It's probably with people calling things they don't like exploiting an equating it to cheating. Auction houses are an example of this when people throw tantrums over perceived injustice.

itsBishop

There is most certainly a gray area surrounding these issues, unless you're intentionally being a pedant or are unwilling to look beyond the false dichotomy where the only types of individuals are "cheaters who must be banned" and "normal players". Many argue that exp grinding via the use of bugged boss spawns is the least egregious form of exploiting (I agree with this position), while exploits in PVP that directly impact the gaming experiences of fellow players tend to top the scale in terms of seriousness.

If the only point of these conversations is to draw up a list of behaviors you consider to be exploits, knock your self out. We've already had those conversations. They're tired and that horse has been beaten. What it sounds like most here are trying to do is argue that certain types of exploiters ought to be subject to a greater penalty than they currently are, or suggesting that relatively minor offenses be lumped categorically with those that nearly always result in bans. This is just silly.

PlagueMonk

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

Robocles

An exploit is cheating, period. No amount of flowery defense changes that.

Nox_Aeterna

Exploiting: Using the game in a way the devs didnt think about for your own profit that should be much higher than what the devs thought it would be.

To me this is perfectly fair and i see no problems at all with it , the devs were the ones that failed and thus created the possibility for this to happen. Just a player profiting over the devs failures.

Cheating: Making use of your own code to then create and exploit an issue with the game. This is not that much the devs fault , this is you probing their code for an opening and then using special code on your machine to exploit their game.

The common example are things like aim hacks and such in fps games.

To me this is unforgivable and the players should be punished for doing it.

Fiding flaws in the game to exploit and maximize your profit in a game is perfectly fair as a gamer. You are just playing the game to the max.

Creating code to change the rules of said game for you is absurd and doesnt prove you have outsmarted what the devs thought possible from a gamer seat , but instead from a programmer seat.

Robocles

Suru wrote: »

I believe this only affects the player themselves and not others, Like OldSmeller says, people who, in his example have 100% crit on instant cast spells, are cheaters due to how it affects other players and their experience especially in something super competitive in PVP. You can just ignore bittermaw grinders, their grinding one boss should never affect you as a player. Sure its an exploit, but its up to ZoS to fix.

And, that's not what OldSmeller said... nice job of twisting his words for your argument.

BCBasher

I have been grinding Bittermaw and scorpion before it. It is exploiting a flaw in how they tried to keep you from doing the exact thing we're doing. Do I feel bad about it, no I didn't feel bad about pew-pewing Umbra with a bow at lvl3 three or spell stacking in Oblivion using the wizards tower addon. What absolutely cracks me up though is the "grind group" and their sense of entitlement, waiting list, and reporting "griefers" when someone kills the adds as intended and makes them wait four and a half minutes. You're going to report me for not grouping, yeah I'm sure ZOS thinks you guys are more right in using this exploit because you take turns. If you don't like the exploit all you have to do is show up and say "hay guies, u wanna c how long I can spam pules for?" get your fill of delicious exploiter tears and then walk away feeling better.

badmojo

I had no desire to finish the 50++ content so I went and grinded in craglorn rather than giving up on ESO entirely. Would you rather have people leave the game because of a large PVE wall they don't want to tackle? Is that actually better for this game and the community? Would grinding have to take exactly the same amount of time as playing normally for people to accept it?

This game was always sold to us as 'play how you want' if I want to sit in the forest and kill millions of wolves to level up, that's my choice.

badmojo

BCBasher wrote: »

I have been grinding Bittermaw and scorpion before it. It is exploiting a flaw in how they tried to keep you from doing the exact thing we're doing. Do I feel bad about it, no I didn't feel bad about pew-pewing Umbra with a bow at lvl3 three or spell stacking in Oblivion using the wizards tower addon. What absolutely cracks me up though is the "grind group" and their sense of entitlement, waiting list, and reporting "griefers" when someone kills the adds as intended and makes them wait four and a half minutes. You're going to report me for not grouping, yeah I'm sure ZOS thinks you guys are more right in using this exploit because you take turns. If you don't like the exploit all you have to do is show up and say "hay guies, u wanna c how long I can spam pules for?" get your fill of delicious exploiter tears and then walk away feeling better.

I've never seen people report others for killings adds, but I'm not surprised. The whole thing about grouping and waiting list is just common courtesy among civilized human beings. It cracks me up that you lay out exactly how to be a rude person, like it's some kind of secret that people don't know about. We know, it's just that most people don't get their jollies off being trolls.

michaelb14a_ESO2

JessieColt wrote: »

Grinding Bittermaw doesn't impart anything remotely considered cheating using the above definition. You are not getting better loot, or better XP rewards against killing any other boss level monster in the game. You are just doing it faster.

Lol. Going by your deeply flawed "logic":

Using a dupe glitch isn't cheating. After all, your not getting "better loot"... just the same loot, faster

Teleporting to crystal shard locations isn't cheating, "it's just faster".

hmm guess we know what type of "gamer" YOU are.

jelliedsoup

PlagueMonk wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

The game we've been given is an exploit, many use whatever class skills Zos has decided to be far more powerful.

Perhaps if you tried 6 months as a stam build fighting DKs/Sorc you'd understand.

nerevarine1138

jelliedsoup wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

The game we've been given is an exploit, many use whatever class skills Zos has decided to be far more powerful.

Perhaps if you tried 6 months as a stam build fighting DKs/Sorc you'd understand.

I've been playing a stamina-based Nightblade since launch, and I've never once had the urge to cheat. Weird, huh?

david271749

PlagueMonk wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

How would you know all this unless *gasp* you're an exploiter too.

nerevarine1138

david271749 wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

How would you know all this unless *gasp* you're an exploiter too.

Actually, I'm fairly certain everyone knew about that particular exploit, regardless of whether they took advantage of it.

david271749

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

How would you know all this unless *gasp* you're an exploiter too.

Actually, I'm fairly certain everyone knew about that particular exploit, regardless of whether they took advantage of it.

Doesn't matter. He admitted that he exploited. MUST PERMABAN.

GnatB

JessieColt wrote: »

There is a difference between cheating and exploiting. I think that is the whole point of the argument on both sides.

As someone pointed out, cheating is "To act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."

There is no advantage to gain by grinding Bittermaw. You have access to the same loot, and same XP gain as anyone else who isn't grinding the boss. Grinding Bittermaw doesn't impart anything remotely considered cheating using the above definition. You are not getting better loot, or better XP rewards against killing any other boss level monster in the game. You are just doing it faster.

It very much is exploiting: "To take advantage of a situation".

An unintended consequence of killing Bittermaw but not the Welwa adds is that the boss respawns faster. Using that to your advantage to force the boss to respawn faster so that you can kill him more often and therefore earn XP faster is exploiting the mechanic that currently exists.

Should Zos fix this, yes.

Should anyone be banned for exploiting the game mechanic in a way that isn't cheating anyone else or doesn't have an impact on anyone elses game play, no.

Ah, but you're cheating the devs, and of course if you want to bring PvP into it, leveling faster is an advantage against other people. And, finally, I would argue that taking advantage of a situation that you know (or it's highly likely) the devs didn't intend, is dishonest too. (Particularly when many ToS's (Including ESO's) specifically indicate you're supposed to report and avoid exploits. If you don't, then that's dishonest, unfair, and cheating. PERIOD.)

•Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or virtual currency/items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

jelliedsoup

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

You win THE lamest excuse of the year award.

There is no reason that can justify your use of exploits. Period.


And to answer the question.....remember when we could stand around dungeon bosses and kill them over, and over.......and over? I could get a full stack of soul gems and a full bag of items in no time. They nerfed it so you only got a drop once every 10 mins. Was there also an exp nerf? Don't recall but there should be.

This is NO different.

The game we've been given is an exploit, many use whatever class skills Zos has decided to be far more powerful.

Perhaps if you tried 6 months as a stam build fighting DKs/Sorc you'd understand.

I've been playing a stamina-based Nightblade since launch, and I've never once had the urge to cheat. Weird, huh?

You mean you've never exploited the game mechanics. Wow, that would take a lot of control to not animation cancel etc. Good for you though. have a (*)

astro74

Exploiting - To use a flaw in the code/mechanics that grant you any form of advantage. If you do this on purpose it is always cheating.

SteveCampsOut

Cheater's Gonna Cheat.

Tykune

Exploiters should be punished, which ZeniMax doesn't seem to care about. They are slow to patch up exploitable bosses, slow to fix issues associated with grinding, and made very, very bad choices in some of their recent content (Forced to group to complete Craglorn quests). But overall, its not the player's fault that these things exist, it is ZeniMax's fault. Players will be players, they will find ways to quickly level, quickly make money, and try to find ways to profit hugely, whether it is legit or not. Point in being, dont blame the players. Blame the developers who dont care to fix these issues.

nerevarine1138

Tykune wrote: »

Exploiters should be punished, which ZeniMax doesn't seem to care about. They are slow to patch up exploitable bosses, slow to fix issues associated with grinding, and made very, very bad choices in some of their recent content (Forced to group to complete Craglorn quests). But overall, its not the player's fault that these things exist, it is ZeniMax's fault. Players will be players, they will find ways to quickly level, quickly make money, and try to find ways to profit hugely, whether it is legit or not. Point in being, dont blame the players. Blame the developers who dont care to fix these issues.

I can't agree that ZO hasn't been quick to react to exploits that are easily fixable (i.e. delve boss exploits, scorpion grind, etc.). The only things I haven't seen them fix in a timely manner are issues like animation cancelling, which presumably takes more than adjusting a respawn timer to fix.

But more importantly, it doesn't excuse bad behavior on the part of the players. To return to a real-world analogy, do we blame a homeowner for a break-in because they didn't put iron bars over their windows?

astro74

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Tykune wrote: »

But more importantly, it doesn't excuse bad behavior on the part of the players. To return to a real-world analogy, do we blame a homeowner for a break-in because they didn't put iron bars over their windows?

Most insurace companies do

BCBasher

There is no sign posted at Bittermaw saying "You must kill all three welvas and wait four and a half minutes for respawn". I'm sure allot of people sleep better at night "playing by the rule" IRL or otherwise, I prefer to look for loopholes. As you can probably guess I have very few friends but my wife and kids love the life my backstabbing and shortcutting provides so I'm fine with my "moral code".

Ysne58

I'm not even sure what animation cancelling is. I don't spend much time in pvp so that's probably why.

Leeric

The excuses some of you guys come up with to justify cheating always amazes me lol.