On Exploits vs. Cheating

nerevarine1138

So there was an interesting conversation in zone chat the other day, where someone was defending their use of the Bittermaw exploit. They repeatedly said that while it may be an exploit, it's not cheating.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, because it seems completely ridiculous to me that someone can deliberately exploit a bug in the game code in order to advance their character and get loot/XP and not call it cheating. And is there such a thing as a exploit that isn't cheating on some level? I've always used the word exploit to simply refer to a form of cheating that doesn't require illegal manipulation of the game code (as in botting, hacking, etc.).

OldSmeller

It's a grey area.
The people who use flaws in the games code to have 100% crit or instant cast spells are cheaters.

The people who do this unwittingly are exploiting but they aren't cheaters because that implies intent.

nerevarine1138

OldSmeller wrote: »

It's a grey area.
The people who use flaws in the games code to have 100% crit or instant cast spells are cheaters.

The people who do this unwittingly are exploiting but they aren't cheaters because that implies intent.

Well let's leave out people who aren't aware of what they're doing, since that can apply to pretty much any situation (although at some point, one would assume they'd notice what's happening).

But speaking to things like the Bittermaw exploit (and prior to this, the scorpion), how could any player in their right mind think that it doesn't qualify as cheating when they know that they have to bug the spawn in order to get what they want?

Suru

I believe this only affects the player themselves and not others, Like OldSmeller says, people who, in his example have 100% crit on instant cast spells, are cheaters due to how it affects other players and their experience especially in something super competitive in PVP. You can just ignore bittermaw grinders, their grinding one boss should never affect you as a player. Sure its an exploit, but its up to ZoS to fix.

nerevarine1138

Suru wrote: »

I believe this only affects the play themselves and not others, Like OldSmeller says, people who, in his example have 100% crit on instant cast spells, are cheaters due to how it affects other players and their experience especially in something super competitive in PVP. You can just ignore bittermaw grinders, their grinding one boss should never affect you as a player.

Why shouldn't it, though? Their exploit-grinding advances their characters faster, offers them better loot, and creates a community of people who don't want to play the game honestly.

But to extrapolate your argument to the real world: why should I care about shoplifting if I don't own a store? Does it make the behavior less objectionable because I'm not personally affected?

Aett_Thorn

I think that a lot of people parse this issue a little too much to make themselves feel better. Sure, using an exploit isn't technically cheating, which would involve hacks and/or outside coding designed to do things that you're not supposed to be able to do (such as travel underground, travel faster than you're normally able to, or duplicate items). However, exploits do allow you to gain XP usually much faster than people that play normally would, and usually much faster than the Devs had intended.

Personally, I tend to view exploiting as cheating, just not Cheating.

Empty_Emotions

Murder vs. Manslaughter, both end with someone killing someone, but are defined based on intent. Same kettle of fish as exploiting and cheating.

nerevarine1138

Empty_Emotions wrote: »

Murder vs. Manslaughter, both end with someone killing someone, but are defined based on intent. Same kettle of fish as exploiting and cheating.

I'm not sure I understand the analogy. Are you saying that exploits are only used unconsciously? Because I don't think that's the case.

OldSmeller

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

It's a grey area.
The people who use flaws in the games code to have 100% crit or instant cast spells are cheaters.

The people who do this unwittingly are exploiting but they aren't cheaters because that implies intent.

Well let's leave out people who aren't aware of what they're doing, since that can apply to pretty much any situation (although at some point, one would assume they'd notice what's happening).

But speaking to things like the Bittermaw exploit (and prior to this, the scorpion), how could any player in their right mind think that it doesn't qualify as cheating when they know that they have to bug the spawn in order to get what they want?

Before you go forward there are a few key facts that you should know and understand.

1. Most of the exploits that involve unfair numerical advantages over other players and entities were present in the alpha. People such as myself reported these same issues numerous times. It stands to reason that the only ~solution~ the will come of pointing it out would be even more reduction in the granularity of the character menu.

2. Up until very recently ESO had no functional support system. Late into the original release of the game on pc there was still issues with support and petitions because the infrastructure simply wasn't implemented. It was held together by duck tap essentialy. Almost all of the functions built into the system were not working and as such GMs had limited capacity to help or troubleshoot.

3. This is a AAA game company, not an indie developer or some European company. This means in the end it's about making money, not art.



That said, the issues you express are not new and they likely will not be resolved until the first expansion comes out.

Leeric

You'll find a lot of people try to worm their way out of it. If they are knowingly exploiting, they are cheating. Its pretty simple.

nerevarine1138

OldSmeller wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

It's a grey area.
The people who use flaws in the games code to have 100% crit or instant cast spells are cheaters.

The people who do this unwittingly are exploiting but they aren't cheaters because that implies intent.

Well let's leave out people who aren't aware of what they're doing, since that can apply to pretty much any situation (although at some point, one would assume they'd notice what's happening).

But speaking to things like the Bittermaw exploit (and prior to this, the scorpion), how could any player in their right mind think that it doesn't qualify as cheating when they know that they have to bug the spawn in order to get what they want?

Before you go forward there are a few key facts that you should know and understand.

1. Most of the exploits that involve unfair numerical advantages over other players and entities were present in the alpha. People such as myself reported these same issues numerous times. It stands to reason that the only ~solution~ the will come of pointing it out would be even more reduction in the granularity of the character menu.

2. Up until very recently ESO had no functional support system. Late into the original release of the game on pc there was still issues with support and petitions because the infrastructure simply wasn't implemented. It was held together by duck tap essentialy. Almost all of the functions built into the system were not working and as such GMs had limited capacity to help or troubleshoot.

3. This is a AAA game company, not an indie developer or some European company. This means in the end it's about making money, not art.



That said, the issues you express are not new and they likely will not be resolved until the first expansion comes out.

I'm not really talking about the technical end of things, but...

1. Like what? I know that there are some bugs that pop up in different forms after different patches, but I'm not aware of a single bug that has persisted in the exact same way since alpha.
2. I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. The support system has been excellent for me since release. I have yet to wait more than a day for a ticket response.
3. And that has what to do with the morality of the players?

Suru

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

I believe this only affects the play themselves and not others, Like OldSmeller says, people who, in his example have 100% crit on instant cast spells, are cheaters due to how it affects other players and their experience especially in something super competitive in PVP. You can just ignore bittermaw grinders, their grinding one boss should never affect you as a player.

Why shouldn't it, though? Their exploit-grinding advances their characters faster, offers them better loot, and creates a community of people who don't want to play the game honestly.

But to extrapolate your argument to the real world: why should I care about shoplifting if I don't own a store? Does it make the behavior less objectionable because I'm not personally affected?

So what, they pay 15$ a month to play the game this way. Its up to ZoS to fix this as I said before yo.

OMG STOP BREAKING THE IMMERSION!!!!111!!!!

nerevarine1138

Suru wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

I believe this only affects the play themselves and not others, Like OldSmeller says, people who, in his example have 100% crit on instant cast spells, are cheaters due to how it affects other players and their experience especially in something super competitive in PVP. You can just ignore bittermaw grinders, their grinding one boss should never affect you as a player.

Why shouldn't it, though? Their exploit-grinding advances their characters faster, offers them better loot, and creates a community of people who don't want to play the game honestly.

But to extrapolate your argument to the real world: why should I care about shoplifting if I don't own a store? Does it make the behavior less objectionable because I'm not personally affected?

So what, they pay 15$ a month to play the game this way. Its up to ZoS to fix this as I said before yo.

I'm not saying that ZO shouldn't fix the exploit. But I think that we, as a community, can be responsible for creating an environment where this sort of behavior isn't acceptable. There are always going to be bugs in the game. Why should we tolerate players who will constantly use those bugs in order to gain an unfair advantage?

Armitas

People do things they know better of, then craft justifications for why it is so, and then the "Gods of the Copybook Headings limp up to explain it once more."

dodgehopper_ESO

This is all well and good except its not Skyrim. Players are going to search for the most expedient method to level up via one grind or another. That's the mmo nature of the game and its not going to change. Not everyone plays ESO to run through the storyline content (or any of the pve for that matter). I'm not entirely sure why it matters to people, as someone who powerlevels out there, will still have to go back and level normally through content (at least a great deal of it) in order to pick up skill points they would not otherwise have. This skillpoint differential is a remarkable difference.

Exploit by the way simply means:

1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
"to exploit a business opportunity."

2. to use selfishly for one's own ends:
"employers who exploit their workers."

3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote:

Farming through bosses while possibly selfish, I wouldn't categorize as cheating. Cheating is using some type of hack or trick to defeat another player or npc outside the game's code or by using particular code yourself. People farm bosses even at the low level, in dungeons, etc. For example, if you are able to teleport across the map, make yourself invulnerable, etc. (People actually do this type of thing in mmo's).

While it is immersion breaking to some extent, there are many things about the MMO genre itself that can be immersion breaking. What keeps immersion on track is good writing, and a little imagination. It is also up to the developers to tidy up their loose ends as well.

Suru

[/quote]

I'm not saying that ZO shouldn't fix the exploit. But I think that we, as a community, can be responsible for creating an environment where this sort of behavior isn't acceptable. There are always going to be bugs in the game. Why should we tolerate players who will constantly use those bugs in order to gain an unfair advantage?[/quote]

I really do sympathize with what you're saying, but I don't think we could really do anything about it, they pay do what they want. There comes a point to where if you can level fast with a little shaming, people will take that route, no real drawbacks for them and in the end they dont bother other people except hardcore whiteknights

I MESSED UP THE QUOTE IM SORRY

Leeric

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This is all well and good except its not Skyrim. Players are going to search for the most expedient method to level up via one grind or another. That's the mmo nature of the game and its not going to change. Not everyone plays ESO to run through the storyline content (or any of the pve for that matter). I'm not entirely sure why it matters to people, as someone who powerlevels out there, will still have to go back and level normally through content (at least a great deal of it) in order to pick up skill points they would not otherwise have. This skillpoint differential is a remarkable difference.

Exploit by the way simply means:

1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
"to exploit a business opportunity."

2. to use selfishly for one's own ends:
"employers who exploit their workers."

3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote:

Farming through bosses while possibly selfish, I wouldn't categorize as cheating. Cheating is using some type of hack or trick to defeat another player or npc outside the game's code or by using particular code yourself. People farm bosses even at the low level, in dungeons, etc. For example, if you are able to teleport across the map, make yourself invulnerable, etc. (People actually do this type of thing in mmo's).

While it is immersion breaking to some extent, there are many things about the MMO genre itself that can be immersion breaking. What keeps immersion on track is good writing, and a little imagination. It is also up to the developers to tidy up their loose ends as well.

Simply finding the definition of the word doesn't mean you are correct. Exploiting in gaming terms means something different that what you are going to see from Webster. If you are knowingly using a game outside of what it is intended to do. And you know this is not how it is suppose to work it is cheating plain and simple. "In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers" Which is cheating. You can try some mental gymnastics and try to argue that it is not, but it is. There should be 0 debate on this honestly. And the only people who debate it, are usually the ones who use bugs to get an upper hand on players who play legitimately when they play video games....funny how that works....

And to your first paragraph, when you bug a spawn purposely to farm bosses it is different than grinding and running around to different bosses and waiting on their timers. We aren't talking about grinding, thats fine. Were talking about the specific types of grinds where people bug the spawn so the boss will spawn without hitting its timer, and a group of people don't even have to move because the boss instantly spawns. While others such as Tower, and Upper Crag Grind aren't the things the OP is referring to.

itsBishop

Is the thief grind an exploit/cheating? Is rotating between bosses in upper crag exploiting/cheating? Is running around in a circuit harvesting resource nodes exploiting/cheating?

Stop trying to police what others are doing. Sure, they get exp/loot faster than you might via questing but no matter how hard you complain or point fingers it's not causing harm or interfering with your playstyle. It's a game. Step down from your moral high horse and get back to playing how you want.

jelliedsoup

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

nerevarine1138

itsBishop wrote: »

Is the thief grind an exploit/cheating? Is rotating between bosses in upper crag exploiting/cheating? Is running around in a circuit harvesting resource nodes exploiting/cheating?

Stop trying to police what others are doing. Sure, they get exp/loot faster than you might via questing but no matter how hard you complain or point fingers it's not causing harm or interfering with your playstyle. It's a game. Step down from your moral high horse and get back to playing how you want.

In order:

1. Yeah, the thief grind is an exploit, and I wish ZO could find a way to fix it. However, I recognize that this is more difficult than fixing the bugged spawns on the scorpion and Bittermaw.
2. No, the Upper Craglorn grind isn't exploiting, because none of those bosses are being intentionally bugged in order to increase experience gain.
3. No, a harvesting circuit isn't exploiting. To understand why, please consult number 2.

Everyone's welcome to play how they want until "how they want" is exploiting bugged content in order to gain an unfair advantage. And I'd love a community that took policing that kind of behavior on itself more, since bugs are always going to be present in an MMO.

nerevarine1138

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

Feel free to name a perfectly balanced MMO.

While you're figuring that one out, please also feel free to explain how cheating helps balance in any way.

michaelb14a_ESO2

A

itsBishop wrote: »

Is the thief grind an exploit/cheating? Is rotating between bosses in upper crag exploiting/cheating? Is running around in a circuit harvesting resource nodes exploiting/cheating?

Stop trying to police what others are doing. Sure, they get exp/loot faster than you might via questing but no matter how hard you complain or point fingers it's not causing harm or interfering with your playstyle. It's a game. Step down from your moral high horse and get back to playing how you want.

Stop being simple. He is referring to the purposeful BUGGING of a spawn repetedly to get it to do something very unintended. This is the very definition of an exploit.

No "gray" area. It's the same as using the dupe glitch exploit; except here you are duping loot, gold AND xp

/report them all

GnatB

There doesn't sound like there is any grey area here.

Intentionally using an avoidable exploit is cheating. PERIOD. If they concede it was an exploit, and it's avoidable, and they are intentionally using it, then they are conceding they were cheating. PERIOD.


The only "grey area" is defining what is an exploit. The definition of a video game exploit is basically using a bug or design flaw to gain some sort of an advantage in a way the developers didn't intend. Since we, as players, don't necessarily know precisely what the developers intent was, it's hard to say with absolute certainty what is and is not an exploit. However, since they would also be the ones banning people for abusing said exploits, and they DO know their intent, the person that doesn't wish to be banned would be wise to report any possible exploits they may happen to find, and then avoid them until/unless the developers respond by giving the green light.


A.k.a. if it looks too good to be true, it's probably an exploit (and thus cheating) until/unless devs say otherwise.

(And yes, if you're paying attention, that does mean that a strong argument could be made that a certain combination of bow attacks that can kill many opponents almost instantaneously is an exploit, particularly in view of the fact that ZOS is nerfing that combination in an upcoming patch, which fairly clearly demonstrates that said insta-kill ability is something the developers didn't intend. Remember, exploits don't have to be taking advantage of bugs, it can also be simple design flaws.)

jelliedsoup

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

Feel free to name a perfectly balanced MMO.

While you're figuring that one out, please also feel free to explain how cheating helps balance in any way.

I see where you got confused, remotely balanced is not perfectly balanced.

Get it?

nerevarine1138

jelliedsoup wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

Feel free to name a perfectly balanced MMO.

While you're figuring that one out, please also feel free to explain how cheating helps balance in any way.

I see where you got confused, remotely balanced is not perfectly balanced.

Get it?

Of course! How silly of me!

If I think that a game isn't balanced (i.e. I lose a one-on-one encounter in PvP), then I'm fully justified in cheating. It's so simple!

Gyudan

- Animation-canceling ("weaving" to make it sound cooler)
- Block-casting (yes, I watched Paul Sage's answer in Live#4 too)
- VP grind through repeatable bosses (Hircine's, OP's spot, anomalies before they got nerfed)

I believe all those techniques do not fell right and are exploits, even if the devs stated that they weren't considered as cheating. I hope they disappear from ESO at some point in the future.

Audigy

The difference is quite simple I think.

A cheat is performed by an external program, it can also be an addon that gives you an unfair advantage over others in PVP like a teleport hack or auto hitting, spell cast detection... Those are not tolerated by companies and often lead to a ban.

An exploit is a bug in the software code that a lot of people use to their advantage. While the outcome is the same, companies seldom take action against it.

In my opinion both things should have a zero tolerance policy but I guess there are legal reasons responsible for not banning exploiters. Third party software can be tracked but to prove someone's guilt when he exploits is very hard.

jelliedsoup

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

If this game was remotely balanced I would possibly not use exploits. It's not, so I still use them.

Feel free to name a perfectly balanced MMO.

While you're figuring that one out, please also feel free to explain how cheating helps balance in any way.

I see where you got confused, remotely balanced is not perfectly balanced.

Get it?

Of course! How silly of me!

If I think that a game isn't balanced (i.e. I lose a one-on-one encounter in PvP), then I'm fully justified in cheating. It's so simple!

Bash those strawmen. Your use of hyperbole is boring.

TRIP233

Exploiting is cheating. don't believe me: Taking scrolls from locked gates.

helediron

I think this game should have these kind of "features". Those who count it as exploit can sneer at cheaters, and those who grind it can grin back to hypocrites.

I switched to grinding in Craglorn because the quests and grouping were too buggy. I hope the bugs disappear from ESO at some point in the future.

TRIP233

helediron wrote: »

I think this game should have these kind of "features". Those who count it as exploit can sneer at cheaters, and those who grind it can grin back to hypocrites.

I switched to grinding in Craglorn because the quests and grouping were too buggy. I hope the bugs disappear from ESO at some point in the future.

The questing and grouping is impossible to do when everyone wants to grind.