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Stealth Snipe Before and After 1.5.1

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
✭✭✭
I, like many others on the forums, am not happy with the recent decision to nerf stealth bonus damage. I do play a stealthy, ganking, sniper build on Live which is a ton of fun, and I'm extremely worried that this change is going to severely hurt my playstyle.

I was once of the first to complain, and others, including @ZOS_GinaBruno‌, have encouraged us QQers to hop on the PTS and test it out. Though others have done testing and posted results, I figured I would share mine.

I will include screenshots at the bottom, but it's easier for me to just explain my testing experience. I kept it extremely simple: I did my best on the PTS to mimicked my Live main (my main respecced after the character copy), and then shot a few mudcrabs in Reaper's March and compared the damage dealt.

The stats that figure into the damage of snipe are simply weapon power and maximum stamina. Both PTS and Live toons wore 7/7 medium armor, and both use Igneous Weapons to push weapon damage further. On the PTS I only used the 49 attribute points that we have on Live, also. Live also runs Shadow Stone and Archer's mind.

PTS Max Stam (With food buff): 2594
PTS Weapon Damage (Inc. Igneous): 220

Live Max Stam (With Food buff): 2424
Live Weapon Damage (Inc. Igneous): 215

On each of these, went into stealth and started hunting some mudcrabs. The findings?

Live damage w/ Stealth & Crit: 2265
Live damage w/o archer's mind: 2013
PTS damage w/ Stealth & Crit: 1667

With MORE potential damage output on the PTS, I cannot come close to doing what I'm capable of on Live. This is about a ~20% damage decrease.

Now, to a lot of people, hitting for 1.6k isn't that bad, right? That's a decent chunk of damage. The problem is PvP. Do you know what my 2.2k crits of mudcrabs on Live translate to in PvP? I will rarely hit for more than 1.6k, and <=1.3k is probably the most common I hit for, with many not even reaching 1k.

What do you think this 1.6k crit is going to translate to in PvP? Almost constant sub-1k crits, probably even lucky to be hitting 900. I've been hit that hard by plenty of skills without the use of stealth.

I make significant sacrifices to obtain my damage output with snipe, and I do not believe I am OP in the slightest way. I'm not 1v12ing people and popping in and out of stealth (I roll a DK anyway, so restealthing is very hard) one-shotting people. In fact, I don't think these supposed 1-shots even exist unless you play an ill-equipped lowbie. I have zero attribute points into health, ~300 health bonus from sets, and I always keep food buffs on. In cyrodil that gives me ~2500 health. No attribute points in health and still holding 2500. Other than lowbies, the only others who could possibly get one-shotted are OTHER PEOPLE RUNNING THIS BUILD.

I love my playstyle because it requires me to be careful, survey the battlefield, and pick my targets wisely. If I'm the one getting caught off guard, my options are to dodge-roll like hell or die very, very quickly.

I appreciate the sustained-DPS boost from snipe, but it serves no purpose for me. I WANT to be a bursty player and this stealth nerf (in addition to the snipe nerf) is, at the very least, starting to rob me of that and making it significantly more difficult to use viably. I love this game and I'm not threatening to unsub or anything like that, but I'm very disappointed in this change and think the rogue-esque playstyles are in danger.

Edit: Forgot to mention live has Shadow Stone and Archer's mind which boost damage a bit more, but still not enough to account for damage disparity.
Edited by ryanmjmcevoy_ESO on October 29, 2014 5:37AM
  • Darthryan
    Darthryan
    ✭✭✭
    I agee with you on this. I also tested naked just with my vr14 dominion bow both live and pts. I the exact same wep dmg, stam, etc.... my findings were 23% decrease in first crit/sneak. Then overall dps was on trolls was 17% lower on pts. Same combos were used. Tested 10 times on both live and pts. Very sad. I'm rerolling a dk right now.
  • Saet
    Saet
    ✭✭✭
    I thought it was only supposed to be nerfed against other players.
    Saet - stam nb
    Hordak - magicka nb
    Demigorgon - stam sorc
  • Takuto
    Takuto
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    I thought it was only supposed to be nerfed against other players.

    As I understand it, the only change to the damage of a single hit on snipe in PVE should be a reduction of about 5%. ZOS has a bit of a record on 'unintended features' though. so if you see a disparity, who knows what it may be from.

    Did anyone bother to attempt this with something other than a bow as a control?



    Eternal Destiny (PC/NA)
    Dead Wait (PC/NA Haderus AD)
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    The problem is that while you are only hitting for 1.6k, others are hitting for 2-3k w/ their stealth Snipes and completely obliterating players before they can do anything.

    It may seem unfair because you aren't doing that, but the potential is there, and it's already happening currently on live.

    The people who are landing 3k Snipes on live right now will be landing 2.4k Snipes after the patch, which is still a considerable amount of damage to begin a fight w/.

    And that's not even counting the second Snipe that will be following it now that the cast time's been cut in half.
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    Fafnisbane wrote: »
    You shouldn't be able to do a stealth attack from range anyway. The point of stealth attacks is that, by being sneaky and taking a risk to get close to your opponent from behind, you do extra damage. There's no reason for ranged attacks to do stealth damage at all.

    Or, alternately, they could make it such that all ranged attacks (including spells and charges) could do stealth damage.

    Otherwise, quit whining about your OP skill being made more reasonable.

    In all fairness, they tried to keep in line w/ previous TES games, where bows could sneak attack at range, but spells could not due to the light / sound that they give off giving away your position.
  • Francescolg
    Francescolg
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    Actually, and that since the july/aug patch, bow is the strongest way to go for distance DD without playing a sorc. If I think about my Templar, he's really happy if any magicka based class skill would crits over 1k dmg... (at 2200 magicka, 125 spell dmg) and this is rarely the case.
    There should not be such a huge gap in the ranged dmg potential of different classes. It is far from balanced if you put together the widest ability, the biggest damage and (!) AND a heal-debuff withit... Don't know who is responsible for that but I'd fire him immediately from anything related to class balancing..

    Beside that, 5% nurf is not enough. IMO bows should crit for 1000-1500, even though I think 1500 is too much!
    Edited by Francescolg on October 29, 2014 6:04PM
  • ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    The problem is that while you are only hitting for 1.6k, others are hitting for 2-3k w/ their stealth Snipes and completely obliterating players before they can do anything.

    It may seem unfair because you aren't doing that, but the potential is there, and it's already happening currently on live.

    The people who are landing 3k Snipes on live right now will be landing 2.4k Snipes after the patch, which is still a considerable amount of damage to begin a fight w/.

    And that's not even counting the second Snipe that will be following it now that the cast time's been cut in half.

    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.
    Saet wrote: »
    I thought it was only supposed to be nerfed against other players.

    Indeed the patch notes say against player characters, but these numbers say otherwise. The Shadow Stone isn't going to give me another 400+ damage to make up the disparity here and, as I said, the PTS character has higher weapon damage and Max Stamina. I don't know what else could account for the 20% damage difference.

    This actually leaves me worried even more for PvP. If something is causing the 20% nerf in PVE, then is there even more nerfage in PvP?
    Edited by ryanmjmcevoy_ESO on October 29, 2014 6:28PM
  • Varicite
    Varicite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.

    http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png
  • ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.

    http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

    Suppose I stand corrected. Would you happen to know what this individual is running and/or what the target was wearing or using as buffs (or not using by the looks of it...)?

    Just trying to gauge if there are potentially other factors that could be nerfed which would better remedy this situation besides straight-up stealth nerf.
  • Mauz
    Mauz
    ✭✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.

    http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

    Again, nobody does 3k crits in pvp. Either this is PvE or an exploit. There were such high crits in the past. But these were only possible by exploiting a bugged mechanic.

    I'm now pvp rang 17 and as a vampire using medium armor without damage mitigation I doubt that anybody is getting much more dmg than I do. The highest snipe I EVER got was 1,7k. As Khajitt NB I usually do 1.7k on my own, sometimes its 200 more if I get a dmg buff by another player but thats it. This is already done with sharpening trait which ignores full armor anyway (its bugged, use this for big crits, forget mark target, throw it out of your bar). 2k would be possible by running around with 2k hp and put everything else in damage.

    3k IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT EXPLOITING IN PVP! PERIOD!

    Wrecking blow does for me up to 4.4k dmg in PvE >2k in PvP. 5k would be possible. This seems to stay in the game. Wrecking blow->Critical Charge->light attack->Finisher. Even with bit less stealth dmg in my opinion this should do at least 4k dmg in <2 sec. I'll use this if bow is gonna suck after 1.5.
  • Ragefist
    Ragefist
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    Hmm, I didnt test bow on PTS, but didnt they also buff speed by like 50%?

    Conditional (stealth) 20% damage reduction vs flat out 50% dps buff doesnt seem bad to me, not at all
  • whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO
    whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    thorspark wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.

    http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

    Suppose I stand corrected. Would you happen to know what this individual is running and/or what the target was wearing or using as buffs (or not using by the looks of it...)?

    Just trying to gauge if there are potentially other factors that could be nerfed which would better remedy this situation besides straight-up stealth nerf.

    Well, first you see that these numbers are very high because of the "marked target" which allows a 75% penetration (so, almost no damage mitigation).
    And this is a nightblade, so 10% upgraded stealth damage.
    And the player must be a khajit or a Bosmer, meaning another 10% sneak damage.
    There's also absolutely no doubt that he's using the shadow boon for the 10% increased critical strike damage.

    I doubt your DK is either a bosmer or a khajit and you said that only your live character had the shadow boon. So, you can remove 30% of the damage value just because of that, meaning 2k damage. you can also remove 200-300 due to mark target, leaving you with 1.8k damage.

    The configuration allowing this kind of damage is very very specific and the player has to sacrifice a lot to be able to do this in some situations.
    So @Varicite‌ is giving you a very specific screenshot from live (not pts) with a configuration that touches less than 2% of the server population.

    I'm sorry to say, but this guy deserved to be OS. As a vampire, in cyrodiil, the only reason to travel not beeing crouched is if you're in a middle of a group. Otherwise you're a "free kill" and it's your fault.

    The bow OS is IMO absolutely normal. Cyrodiil is a dangerous place, ennemies are everywhere, hidden. If you run on open land with your horse, unprotected, prepare to die quick.

    The nerf to stealth damage is an attempt from ZOS to ease the players that cry because they were OS.

    I've been OS many times, it was my fault, I didn't pay attention/was reckless. I don't cry over it, I learned from my mistakes.

    Exactly this above,

    Let alone he didn't block or have Purge on his Bar to clear off the Mark Target.

    Tonight I got 'Marked' in Cyrodiil when in the open (when I accidentally stood up, yup even I make mistakes), I blocked and took a hit from snipe for some major damage, I switched to my bar with the efficient purge ability on it, cleared the "Mark" then dodge rolled to escape any future snipe attack, then I used Dark Cloak to escape, chugged a tripot potion during my escape and then was able to re-enter sneak. Then I circled back and found the Nightblade searching for me in stealth and then I killed him.

    I give him a "A" for effort.

    I died plenty of times tonight as well though, I died 9 times but I killed 75 people tonight (more assists, then straight one on one kills but I will take it). So for every time I died tonight I took out a average of 8.3 enemies. Not bad but this was an average night, sometimes It's alot more (my avg is about a 100+ kills a night and about 9 kills to 1 death ratio or better).
    Signed,
    Kotaro Atani.
    PS4 NA
    VR16/ CP 160 Khajiit Nightblade of the Aldmeri Dominion, Guildmaster and Assassin of the Queen's Hand guild on NA PC. PvP Officer in the WOLF guild on NA PS4, and of course Master Thief. CP 750 (Approx. 20% of Max)/currently 1166 out of 3600 on NA PS4. Currently 728 CP on NA PC (used for PTS testing purposes only). On PS4 I am also a Master Crafter, all traits done and learned, Jewelry crafting is already leveled to 50 and have 6 of the 9 traits researched already on both Necklace and Ring (still need Swift, Harmony and Protective). all Motifs learned on PS4 except for the new Summerset 4 Motifs.

    Warrior, Lover, Thief.... Nightblade.

    Aldmeri Dominion For Life! For the Queen!! Go Dominion or go home !

    "I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims. The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake. Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines. Stand with us." ―Your Queen Commands, Ayrenn Arana Aldmeri.

    (All 15 characters are AD only!)

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/members/kotaro-atani/ / http://i58.tinypic.com/25p6yd2.png http://i66.tinypic.com/5bc5e.png

    Member of ESO Since January 29, 2014, started early Access 3/30/14 on PC, currently subbed on NA PS4 and on NA PC. Note- I only use PC for PTS testing purposes, the PS4 is my dedicated Game Platform.

    Note- for those that don't know how to say Kotaro Atani it's "Ko tar row Ah ta ni" (Ko with a Oh sound, tar which sounds like the sticky black tar stuff, row like rowing a boat, Ah with a AHHHH sound, Ta with a Tahhh sound, Neeee which sounds like knee)

    Things ZOS needs to Fix:"Lag in PvP" /The Khajiit race is the only one without a Attribute bonus in the game, give them one, health would be fine / AOE's need to run for their time stated in the Tool Tip, especially Ultimate's / Smart drops are still not smart / Fix it ZOS, fix it.

    "The blowing sands of time wipe clean the footprints of the past..."
    "Moonsugar may be the key to paradise, but it is through a false door..."
    "A perfect society is always elsewhere..."
    - Unknown book of Khajiiti proverbs.
  • thorspark
    thorspark
    ✭✭✭
    Ragefist wrote: »
    Hmm, I didnt test bow on PTS, but didnt they also buff speed by like 50%?

    Conditional (stealth) 20% damage reduction vs flat out 50% dps buff doesnt seem bad to me, not at all

    Considering that the second snipe will deal much less damage than the first one (500-600 at most) and that the target will have time to react (pop a shield for example), this is still a big nerf.

    DK Vet 12 / NB Vampire Vet 7 / Sorcerer Vet 5 / Templar WW - Guilde Les pochtrons
  • Darthryan
    Darthryan
    ✭✭✭
    Mrs. Jones claims that he took that screenshot of what he did with a bow. I already said if can show me a video and prove that was real, id pay him 50 k
  • Varicite
    Varicite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mauz wrote: »
    Again, nobody does 3k crits in pvp. Either this is PvE or an exploit. There were such high crits in the past. But these were only possible by exploiting a bugged mechanic.

    I'm now pvp rang 17 and as a vampire using medium armor without damage mitigation I doubt that anybody is getting much more dmg than I do. The highest snipe I EVER got was 1,7k. As Khajitt NB I usually do 1.7k on my own, sometimes its 200 more if I get a dmg buff by another player but thats it. This is already done with sharpening trait which ignores full armor anyway (its bugged, use this for big crits, forget mark target, throw it out of your bar). 2k would be possible by running around with 2k hp and put everything else in damage.

    3k IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT EXPLOITING IN PVP! PERIOD!

    Wrecking blow does for me up to 4.4k dmg in PvE >2k in PvP. 5k would be possible. This seems to stay in the game. Wrecking blow->Critical Charge->light attack->Finisher. Even with bit less stealth dmg in my opinion this should do at least 4k dmg in <2 sec. I'll use this if bow is gonna suck after 1.5.

    Dude, Willkill is the current Emperor, what are you even on about?

    Of course this was from PvP.
    Edited by Varicite on October 30, 2014 1:08PM
  • Varicite
    Varicite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    thorspark wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.

    http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

    Suppose I stand corrected. Would you happen to know what this individual is running and/or what the target was wearing or using as buffs (or not using by the looks of it...)?

    Just trying to gauge if there are potentially other factors that could be nerfed which would better remedy this situation besides straight-up stealth nerf.

    Well, first you see that these numbers are very high because of the "marked target" which allows a 75% penetration (so, almost no damage mitigation).
    And this is a nightblade, so 10% upgraded stealth damage.
    And the player must be a khajit or a Bosmer, meaning another 10% sneak damage.
    There's also absolutely no doubt that he's using the shadow boon for the 10% increased critical strike damage.

    I doubt your DK is either a bosmer or a khajit and you said that only your live character had the shadow boon. So, you can remove 30% of the damage value just because of that, meaning 2k damage. you can also remove 200-300 due to mark target, leaving you with 1.8k damage.

    The configuration allowing this kind of damage is very very specific and the player has to sacrifice a lot to be able to do this in some situations.
    So @Varicite‌ is giving you a very specific screenshot from live (not pts) with a configuration that touches less than 2% of the server population.

    I'm sorry to say, but this guy deserved to be OS. As a vampire, in cyrodiil, the only reason to travel not beeing crouched is if you're in a middle of a group. Otherwise you're a "free kill" and it's your fault.

    The bow OS is IMO absolutely normal. Cyrodiil is a dangerous place, ennemies are everywhere, hidden. If you run on open land with your horse, unprotected, prepare to die quick.

    The nerf to stealth damage is an attempt from ZOS to ease the players that cry because they were OS.

    I've been OS many times, it was my fault, I didn't pay attention/was reckless. I don't cry over it, I learned from my mistakes.

    Again, it doesn't really matter to me what specifics are involved beforehand if you can kill a fully geared VR14 player in less than 1 second w/out him having a chance to react.

    This isn't a fps game, it's a MMORPG. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another pvp-enabled MMORPG that allows this sort of thing.
  • thorspark
    thorspark
    ✭✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    Again, it doesn't really matter to me what specifics are involved beforehand if you can kill a fully geared VR14 player in less than 1 second w/out him having a chance to react.

    This isn't a fps game, it's a MMORPG. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another pvp-enabled MMORPG that allows this sort of thing.

    SWTOR, both in PvP and in Galactic Starfighter (2 different PvP modes).
    In standard Pvp, Assassins can burst people in 2 seconds.
    In Spatial PvP, you can OS lots of starfighters with the sniper ship.

    Guild Wars 2 too, I used to burst people in less than 2 seconds if they were lazy. Not played the game for a long time though.

    I'm sure there are others.

    DK Vet 12 / NB Vampire Vet 7 / Sorcerer Vet 5 / Templar WW - Guilde Les pochtrons
  • Varicite
    Varicite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    thorspark wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Again, it doesn't really matter to me what specifics are involved beforehand if you can kill a fully geared VR14 player in less than 1 second w/out him having a chance to react.

    This isn't a fps game, it's a MMORPG. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another pvp-enabled MMORPG that allows this sort of thing.

    SWTOR, both in PvP and in Galactic Starfighter (2 different PvP modes).
    In standard Pvp, Assassins can burst people in 2 seconds.
    In Spatial PvP, you can OS lots of starfighters with the sniper ship.

    Guild Wars 2 too, I used to burst people in less than 2 seconds if they were lazy. Not played the game for a long time though.

    I'm sure there are others.

    Assassins certainly couldn't do that back when I played SWTOR, but I quit when they announced f2p.

    Still, I was a pretty good PvPer in that game at the time, and whenever burst damage became too much, Bioware would nerf it, same as what is happening now.

    Of course, I can't speak for anything that's changed since I played. Sounds like it's gotten worse if what you say is true.

    Killing players w/out actually having to fight them is obviously unintended from ZOS' standpoint.
    Edited by Varicite on October 30, 2014 2:33PM
  • ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    thorspark wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Show me a high 2k crit or 3k crit with Snipe, because I doubt it exists. Mudcrabs obviously aren't going to be resisting my damage, so I feel that's a good target to test maximum damage output, and I know my build is up there in terms of potential damage from Snipe.

    I didn't test current PTS, but I used to be able to hit significantly harder with lava whip from stealth than I could with snipe, and I could use pretty much as effectively; I still had to be very careful and pick individual targets.

    The thing I think people hate most is the Snipe>Heavy Attack>Poison Arrow combo that can all hit near instantly and cause what is technically a 3-shot death. The simple reduction of the cast time and increased travel speed make this combo impossible now.

    Also wondering if some dress-wearing vamps are forgetting the potency of camo hunter, which I've had proc for 1400+ from stealth using a heavy attack, which itself hit for 1200.

    http://s18.postimg.org/p99ahug6x/willkill.png

    Suppose I stand corrected. Would you happen to know what this individual is running and/or what the target was wearing or using as buffs (or not using by the looks of it...)?

    Just trying to gauge if there are potentially other factors that could be nerfed which would better remedy this situation besides straight-up stealth nerf.

    Well, first you see that these numbers are very high because of the "marked target" which allows a 75% penetration (so, almost no damage mitigation).
    And this is a nightblade, so 10% upgraded stealth damage.
    And the player must be a khajit or a Bosmer, meaning another 10% sneak damage.
    There's also absolutely no doubt that he's using the shadow boon for the 10% increased critical strike damage.

    I doubt your DK is either a bosmer or a khajit and you said that only your live character had the shadow boon. So, you can remove 30% of the damage value just because of that, meaning 2k damage. you can also remove 200-300 due to mark target, leaving you with 1.8k damage.

    The configuration allowing this kind of damage is very very specific and the player has to sacrifice a lot to be able to do this in some situations.
    So @Varicite‌ is giving you a very specific screenshot from live (not pts) with a configuration that touches less than 2% of the server population.

    I'm sorry to say, but this guy deserved to be OS. As a vampire, in cyrodiil, the only reason to travel not beeing crouched is if you're in a middle of a group. Otherwise you're a "free kill" and it's your fault.

    The bow OS is IMO absolutely normal. Cyrodiil is a dangerous place, ennemies are everywhere, hidden. If you run on open land with your horse, unprotected, prepare to die quick.

    The nerf to stealth damage is an attempt from ZOS to ease the players that cry because they were OS.

    I've been OS many times, it was my fault, I didn't pay attention/was reckless. I don't cry over it, I learned from my mistakes.

    My DK is a khajiit so I do get that 10% stealth damage. Igneous weapons gives me almost as much extra weapon damage as the nightblade stealthed samage buff.

    NBs only have the increases crit strike damage buff over me, and then Mark Target in PvP. I don't think if I put mark target on a mudcrab I'd see a ton higher numbers, since that's what I tested on.

    I wish I knew more about the screencap. It's obvious that these 3kcrits at least were possible, but without a date we can't confirm how recent this happened. If it is very recent, then even this being 2% of the population I'd have to err on the side of the nerf.

    I was thinking though: the screencap also has camo hunter procced and they use the lethal arrow morph...did this person hit a werewolf? Did that poison damage do all that extra damage since they're weak to it?
  • thorspark
    thorspark
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    Varicite wrote: »
    Assassins certainly couldn't do that back when I played SWTOR, but I quit when they announced f2p.

    Still, I was a pretty good PvPer in that game at the time, and whenever burst damage became too much, Bioware would nerf it, same as what is happening now.

    Of course, I can't speak for anything that's changed since I played. Sounds like it's gotten worse if what you say is true.

    Killing players w/out actually having to fight them is obviously unintended from ZOS' standpoint.

    Well, both were still possible when I left the game when ESO launched, and there were no complaints about it. You could argue that in SWTOR, it's not RvR and you can get back to action pretty quick, you don't have to travel all the way back.

    Zergs are also unintended from ZOS but they still are happening and ruining the RvR. They do nothing about it because 80% of players play that way.

    Killing players without a fight is the whole point of stealthed assassins. They are part of all elder scrolls games.
    Everybody can stealth, block, get shields.

    I personnaly love to anticipate which spots stealthed assassins are gonna use, wait for them to make a move on an unaware player and burst them from behind. Stealthed assassins have High burst but are easy targets.

    So ZOS removes that possibility. OK. You will see even more people in Zergs.
    That's not PvP, that's farming.

    DK Vet 12 / NB Vampire Vet 7 / Sorcerer Vet 5 / Templar WW - Guilde Les pochtrons
  • MorHawk
    MorHawk
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    I wish I knew more about the screencap.

    Wish granted: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1339733
    :)
    Observant wrote: »
    I can count to potato.
    another topic that cant see past its own farts.
    WWJLHD?
  • ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Soulac wrote: »
    Combat Prayer
    Aggressive Horn (+ Stamina + Weapon dmg)
    Charging Maneuver
    Flawness Dawnbreaker
    Weapon Power Potion
    be a NB for extra sneak DMG
    be a Khajiit/Bosmer for extra sneak DMG
    be at max range for max passive bonus
    get some badass sets
    Critdmg mundus
    Sharpened Trait + Armor Reduction (heavy armor, u know?)

    with next patch a a NB -> Death Stroke on some animal for a 20% dmg boost

    Maybe there is more, but well i don´t run a bow and i don´t care about the max. Snipe dmg :P



    Thanks for that.

    If this is what it takes to hit that hard...then *** they deserve that 3k Snipe. Returning to my opposition to the nerf.
  • Varicite
    Varicite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Soulac wrote: »
    Combat Prayer
    Aggressive Horn (+ Stamina + Weapon dmg)
    Charging Maneuver
    Flawness Dawnbreaker
    Weapon Power Potion
    be a NB for extra sneak DMG
    be a Khajiit/Bosmer for extra sneak DMG
    be at max range for max passive bonus
    get some badass sets
    Critdmg mundus
    Sharpened Trait + Armor Reduction (heavy armor, u know?)

    with next patch a a NB -> Death Stroke on some animal for a 20% dmg boost

    Maybe there is more, but well i don´t run a bow and i don´t care about the max. Snipe dmg :P



    Thanks for that.

    If this is what it takes to hit that hard...then *** they deserve that 3k Snipe. Returning to my opposition to the nerf.

    There's pretty much 2 camps, from what I can tell.

    Those who think that it's fine to be able to kill players before they can react, and those who don't.

    I personally don't, obviously.
  • ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    There's pretty much 2 camps, from what I can tell.

    Those who think that it's fine to be able to kill players before they can react, and those who don't.

    I personally don't, obviously.

    I think as long as sufficient sacrifices are made to obtain such massive damage and it isn't spammable that it's a perfectly valid playstyle.
  • eliisra
    eliisra
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    thorspark wrote: »
    Killing players without a fight is the whole point of stealthed assassins. They are part of all elder scrolls games.
    Everybody can stealth, block, get shields.

    I personnaly love to anticipate which spots stealthed assassins are gonna use, wait for them to make a move on an unaware player and burst them from behind. Stealthed assassins have High burst but are easy targets.

    So ZOS removes that possibility. OK. You will see even more people in Zergs.
    That's not PvP, that's farming.

    Ok, so lolgib with 3-4k dps from sneak is good PvP? Killing players unable to counter or fight back is good PvP? If I want that I go play fps or some trashy pw2/f2p game.

    I'm sure it's fun for the user giggling at people exploding in 0.5 sec, but it's fun or a "playstyle" being performed at the expense of others.

    Should we also support impulse monkey blobs, crashing and lagging the server to death, because that's their preferred "playstyle"?

    I played since early access. Therefore putting up with a lot of rubbish in PvP. Immortal vampires stacking swarms, immortal DK's, the stuff pre-Craglorn. Dozens of game breaking exploits. Blobs ruining the game for almost 6 months now. I'm not going to pick team-magicka or stamina. But I'm going to cry when something deals way to much dmg in PvP, or causes bad game-play in other ways.

    Bow attacks from sneak are currently doing to much dmg, at least in the hands of anyone that knows how to maximize a build. It needs toning down. But yes, it sucks that your average casual Joe with his little 1k baby Snipe will suffer this nerf to. He's like the last guy that needs nerfing in Cyrodiil. If there was a better solution I'd gladly support it.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    ✭✭
    It's too funny to read people saying "doing dmg like that is impossible!" and then they are provided with proof that it is possible and immediately they change it up to "well it takes a specific build to be possible so it's okay!"


    These people fighting against the stealth nerf are playing sub-optimal builds for what they're trying to accomplish and you will never change their mind about the necessity of this nerf. They say, "well mine only does 1500dmg", and refuse to acknowledge that by changing just a few things up, they too could be one shotting people from stealth easily.
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
    You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points
  • ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ryanmjmcevoy_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Erock25 wrote: »
    It's too funny to read people saying "doing dmg like that is impossible!" and then they are provided with proof that it is possible and immediately they change it up to "well it takes a specific build to be possible so it's okay!"


    These people fighting against the stealth nerf are playing sub-optimal builds for what they're trying to accomplish and you will never change their mind about the necessity of this nerf. They say, "well mine only does 1500dmg", and refuse to acknowledge that by changing just a few things up, they too could be one shotting people from stealth easily.

    So it's wrong to change an opinion when faced with evidence against your argument? Just because I doubted the existence of such damage doesn't mean that was the only reason I had to dislike the nerf, I just didn't need to use any other reason if my original feeling was true.

    I accept that I was wrong about the damage potential, but the fact that it even requires and ultimate and almost an entire bar of active buffs to cast means it really isn't something that's going to be incredibly common. We won't be downing people left and right with 3k crits, it would have to be one carefully selected target who was worthy of the time.
  • jelliedsoup
    jelliedsoup
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    What people who criticise this archer build don't understand is, due to stamina's inherent inferiority to magicka, at the moment all we have is this snipe hit damaging, following with a 2h or DW combo.

    You may feel annoyed at snipe hitting you without having a chance to respond. I'm annoyed at talons and lash, or streak and bats without being able to respond. What's the difference? The last 2 are still heavily seen in game, we'll see what these nerfs are like after 1.5. whether snipe is sitll in the game.

    Personally I'm pissed off that Zos keep spouting their desire to rebalance this game, so stamina is actually worthwhile. Stamina builds need stealth, in open combat they will lose.

    But once 1.5 is out, I will be more justified in my criticism.
    www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO4
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