How are you going support Assassin/Rogue type characters in the future?

Cody

jackyd wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

I think your fallacy lies in assuming the Nightblade is a Stamina based rogue type assassin.

Here is the Nightblade class as it was in Oblivion:

Nightblade

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

Major Skills:

Mysticism
Illusion
Alteration
Sneak
Short Blade

Minor Skills:

Light Armor
Unarmored
Destruction
Marksman
Security

Spells:

Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

And for Comparison the Oblivion Nightblade

Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances. (in-game description)

Nightblades are effective assassins and enforcers. Their speed and skills allow them to easily reach places most others could not. Nightblades dispose of opponents with a quick blade and Destruction magic. They are also skilled in Alteration magic, and are proficient in healing themselves.

The Nightblade is a premade class.

Stats
Specialization

Magic

Favored Attributes

Willpower
Speed

Major Skills

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Use

Nightblades tend to favor light armor over heavy armor. They are adept healers and are good at using Alteration magic, casting spells to protect themselves, and so on. They use melee based blades to further weaken their foes while they dispatch them with their powerful spells of Destruction magic.

Their proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics is unusual for a class that specializes in magic, but they make great assassins and thieves due to their natural speed.
Blades

As the name references to, Nightblades use bladed weapons to further protect themselves. Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.
Magic

Since Nightblades are not naturally high in Intelligence, it is best to work on Conjuration, Mysticism, or Alchemy to gain a boost in Magicka reserves to cast more spells. Their high Willpower allows them to regenerate magic quickly, which can be used to let off more spells. Their high alteration skill allows them to protect themselves with spells such as Protect or Aegis. If an enemy is far away, a Nightblade can use Destruction spells, ranging from long distance to damage on touch.
Disadvantages

Since they aren't skilled with Illusion magic, it may be wise to use as a side skill to cast invisibility spells, or choose The Shadow as a birthsign. They can probably be killed easily due to their lack of endurance, so it is best to also use Sneak as a side skill, too. It is hard to face hordes of enemies head-on with this type of class, also.

So if you ask me ATM everything is working as intended with the nightblade class

Sure those players that wanted to play the typical rogue like assassin are currently shafted as the skills to supplement that play style have yet to be implemented with the Dark Brotherhood and the Assassins guild, and yes that playstyle will not be exclusive to Nightblades when it gets released but to all classes, thankfuly

this is not oblivion. this is ESO

try again

jackyd

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

jackyd wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

I think your fallacy lies in assuming the Nightblade is a Stamina based rogue type assassin.

Here is the Nightblade class as it was in Oblivion:

Nightblade

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

Major Skills:

Mysticism
Illusion
Alteration
Sneak
Short Blade

Minor Skills:

Light Armor
Unarmored
Destruction
Marksman
Security

Spells:

Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

And for Comparison the Oblivion Nightblade

Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances. (in-game description)

Nightblades are effective assassins and enforcers. Their speed and skills allow them to easily reach places most others could not. Nightblades dispose of opponents with a quick blade and Destruction magic. They are also skilled in Alteration magic, and are proficient in healing themselves.

The Nightblade is a premade class.

Stats
Specialization

Magic

Favored Attributes

Willpower
Speed

Major Skills

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Use

Nightblades tend to favor light armor over heavy armor. They are adept healers and are good at using Alteration magic, casting spells to protect themselves, and so on. They use melee based blades to further weaken their foes while they dispatch them with their powerful spells of Destruction magic.

Their proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics is unusual for a class that specializes in magic, but they make great assassins and thieves due to their natural speed.
Blades

As the name references to, Nightblades use bladed weapons to further protect themselves. Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.
Magic

Since Nightblades are not naturally high in Intelligence, it is best to work on Conjuration, Mysticism, or Alchemy to gain a boost in Magicka reserves to cast more spells. Their high Willpower allows them to regenerate magic quickly, which can be used to let off more spells. Their high alteration skill allows them to protect themselves with spells such as Protect or Aegis. If an enemy is far away, a Nightblade can use Destruction spells, ranging from long distance to damage on touch.
Disadvantages

Since they aren't skilled with Illusion magic, it may be wise to use as a side skill to cast invisibility spells, or choose The Shadow as a birthsign. They can probably be killed easily due to their lack of endurance, so it is best to also use Sneak as a side skill, too. It is hard to face hordes of enemies head-on with this type of class, also.

So if you ask me ATM everything is working as intended with the nightblade class

Sure those players that wanted to play the typical rogue like assassin are currently shafted as the skills to supplement that play style have yet to be implemented with the Dark Brotherhood and the Assassins guild, and yes that playstyle will not be exclusive to Nightblades when it gets released but to all classes, thankfuly

People constantly refer back to how nightblades were described in previous games, and tend to emphasize the use of magick as justification to why caster NB is the norm. I would argue that originally, in morrowind, offensive magic wasn't a part of the nightblades major skillset. Destruction was in the minor skills, but not major.

One handed blade was in nightblades major skillset, and seems to be the only included major skill that dealt damage, and had magic schools to buff and compliment (illusion/alteration) one handed blade and acrobatics.

Then in oblivion there was no listed minor skillset, so destruction was included simply because it was in the minor skill set and couldn't be forgotten. But just like in morrowind, blade and acrobatics were also included.

What I'm pointing out is many jump to this conclusion that NB in previous games was naturally a 'caster' simply because it had a lot of specialization in magicka. While how it really seems to me is that it was a stamina/magicka hybrid which primarily utilized stamina for damage and magicka for buffing.

Although that's describing the relationship using eso logic a bit. Regardless, I'm just a bit tired of that example being brought up when it can be justifiably argued quite the opposite as is presented >_<

The thing tough is I could go as far back as Arena and the class description would alwys come up the same, heck in Arena the Nightblade class wasn't even a rogue archetype but a mage archetype.

Daggerfall:

Nightblades

Possibly the most feared class of all is the nightblade. They possess many of the skills and philosophy of the thiefly classes, combined with the powers of the mage. Their natural agility and stealth, and their mastery of the School of Illusion, means nightblades are seldom seen, though their hand is certainly felt. Effective nightblades have high agility as well as high Intelligence and Willpower.

Primary Skills: Illusion, Stealth, Dodging
Major Skills: Thaumaturgy, Pickpocketing, Lockpicking

Arena:

Nightblades

Nightblades are those Mages who have perfected their arts to help in activities involving infiltration, spying, and stealth. They are much like Thieves, creatures of the night, able to use their considerable powers to help them in their nocturnal activities. In combat, Nightblades receive a chance per level of scoring a critical hit (triple damage). Nightblades can pick locks about as well as Rogues. They also receive 1.5 times their Intelligence in starting spell points.

Weapons: Dagger, staff, short bow, shortsword, saber
Armor: Leather only
Shield: Buckler only
Starting Health: 25 + d8
Special: Spell Points = (INT*1.5); 1% Critical Strike chance/level with any weapon (x3 damage); 50% Lockpick Effectiveness

Advantages

Like the Bard, Nightblades can critical strike, steal items and pick locks reasonably well, and fight with some potent weaponry (including ranged weapons).
The Nightblade has 50% more magicka at its disposal than the Bard, which means that it can cast better spells at lower levels, or cast weaker spells more often.
Some support spell effects are cheaper for Nightblades.

Disadvantages

Nightblades sacrifice some of their fighting ability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability.
Nightblades are unable to equip chain mail or any shield larger than a buckler.
The Nightblade levels up much more slowly than Bard and pure Mage.
Only Sorcerers and Mages have worse hit point gains than a Nightblad

And lastly the classes as they were distributed by Archetype in Arena



Now I will enter the realm of speculation, but when I look at that class list and compare it to the classes currently in game I will state that for now we only have mage archetype classes in game:

Dragonknight come closest to a Battle Mage
Templars come closest to Healers
Sorcerers are wells Sorcs
Nightblades well Nightblades

The point I wanted to make earlier is that the Nightblade has always been portrayed as a light armor wearing, dual blades wielding, magical assassin. Which role it can perform flawlessly as the best Nightblade builds currently employ only class abilities no one is stopping you from swapping that resto staff for dual daggers because the only reason to wear the staff was due to cycle of life which is no more .

The typical Rogue archetype as it is known from D&D or as many MMORPG players expect it from either EQ/WoW/DAoC is currently not supported by ESO due to missing skills which will, for that subset of the playerbase who want to live out this fantasy, hopefully be implement come the Thief and Dark Brotherhood guilds
This isn't an issue only pertaining to Nightblades as the Rogue/Thief/Assassin playstyles are currently not supported by ESO, even if there were no classes and we could merrily mix and match skill lines from all available skill trees.

Rogues aren't the only ones that are shafted in that regards ppl who want to live out the fantasy of the Knight in Shiny Armour forgoing all magical training as well as the Conan fantasy are playstyles that with the current set of available skills can only be played in a gimped version of themselves but then again this was true for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

Imagine Skyrim having a COOP mode where you could PvP in, a player who does not use any Magicka skills and therefore only relies on his light/heavy attacks with high skill value in lets say Dual Wield/Acrobatics/Medium Armor would get destroyed by a player with high Destruction/Alteration/Conjuration skills.
The former would be forced to pick up some form of magical abilities in the form of Buffs e.g. Absorption Shields/Resistance Bonuses/Blur or some other Illusion/Alteration magic in order to have a fighting chance, same as it is in ESO if you want to be effective as a melee build you need to either rely wholly on your class skills or mix and match em with your weapon skills at a preferred ratio of 3:2.
Remember the primary form of attacks is still light attacks weaved in with either class or weapon skills and when you deconstruct damage logs you'll see that light attack is usually your top or 2nd most damage dealing ability, well it is in case of a Sorc.

Heck you can't even recreate most mage types, we have Fire mages check (DK's with Firestaff) but they are missing their most signature spell: Fireball; Storm mages check (Sorcerer with lightning staff) but yet again missing signature DD spells like Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning, Frost mages not possible due to the Frost magic skill set only available with a frost staff and these are missing the typical control you get from frost magic; freezes, slows.
Even a druid or shaman, very difficult if not impossible ATM. Necromancer, impossible, Bard impossible, Monk again impossible.

I have been lucky on my end, I wanted to play a Spellsword like class and the game, luckily for me, supports that with the skills I have available in PvP. In PvE I too am shafted and need to go dress and stick only to be 3rd in line after DK's and NB's and before Templar's DPS and where the only class skills worth slotting are Surge and if the mob ain't undead then Mage's Wrath because if the mob is undead than Crushing Shock + Evil Hunter are still the best DPS even while in execute range.

I feel with you Thieves and Assassins but the constant whining won't do you any good, these skill lines are in the pipe and supposed to go live with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood implementation, whenever this is, be patient lieke many others who yet cannot impersonate their preferred fantasy class due to missing skill lines.

suycyco

You said "The point I wanted to make earlier is that the Nightblade has always been portrayed as a light armor wearing"

But if I just quote your NB description of Arena I see : "Armor: Leather only" wich is more an medium armor I think.

And as eso was sold it was "play like you want" not play like you want as far as you wear a dress and a staff.

People are complaining not just for the pleasure of doing it (but like we are in a MMO forum, I have to admit lot of people doing it for the pleasure and exagerating things ) but because their is few way to play the game being effective actually, and it seems that zenimax give fewer opportunities to player by nerfing some effectives templates.

Like lot of people have said before it would have be a lot more satisfying if they have let the rogue play style like it is but giving more counterpart to opponent to counter it.
Dunno a bigger whistle of the snipe arrow, some more effective spells against stealth attack (and debuging existing one) but not just nerfing blindly like that wich is always a big source of frustration to people who had indvested a lot of time making an efficient gear for that.
And at countrary to your mage exemple It was working until now and it's changing because it is effective but not in the way zenimax wants to...

Actually i changed my leather stuff for an heavy armor (yeah I must be a bit masochist) playing tanky style in cyrodiil wich is quite funny, but frustrating that knowing I would do better in light armor.

thorspark

There has been something like 0 information from ZOS about the thief/dark brotherhood skill lines and when they will go live since the game launched.
Yeah, we saw a picture of the white hand at the end of the guild summit, but that's it.

1.5 brings no improvement to stamina based builds, since all class skills are still magicka based/magicka scaled.

It's supposed to happen in 1.6, but they'd better do it right because there's a lot of expectations here and a miss would be like a judgment day for many players.

Cody

thorspark wrote: »

There has been something like 0 information from ZOS about the thief/dark brotherhood skill lines and when they will go live since the game launched.
Yeah, we saw a picture of the white hand at the end of the guild summit, but that's it.

1.5 brings no improvement to stamina based builds, since all class skills are still magicka based/magicka scaled.

It's supposed to happen in 1.6, but they'd better do it right because there's a lot of expectations here and a miss would be like a judgment day for many players.

jackyd wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

jackyd wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

I think your fallacy lies in assuming the Nightblade is a Stamina based rogue type assassin.

Here is the Nightblade class as it was in Oblivion:

Nightblade

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

Major Skills:

Mysticism
Illusion
Alteration
Sneak
Short Blade

Minor Skills:

Light Armor
Unarmored
Destruction
Marksman
Security

Spells:

Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

And for Comparison the Oblivion Nightblade

Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances. (in-game description)

Nightblades are effective assassins and enforcers. Their speed and skills allow them to easily reach places most others could not. Nightblades dispose of opponents with a quick blade and Destruction magic. They are also skilled in Alteration magic, and are proficient in healing themselves.

The Nightblade is a premade class.

Stats
Specialization

Magic

Favored Attributes

Willpower
Speed

Major Skills

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Use

Nightblades tend to favor light armor over heavy armor. They are adept healers and are good at using Alteration magic, casting spells to protect themselves, and so on. They use melee based blades to further weaken their foes while they dispatch them with their powerful spells of Destruction magic.

Their proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics is unusual for a class that specializes in magic, but they make great assassins and thieves due to their natural speed.
Blades

As the name references to, Nightblades use bladed weapons to further protect themselves. Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.
Magic

Since Nightblades are not naturally high in Intelligence, it is best to work on Conjuration, Mysticism, or Alchemy to gain a boost in Magicka reserves to cast more spells. Their high Willpower allows them to regenerate magic quickly, which can be used to let off more spells. Their high alteration skill allows them to protect themselves with spells such as Protect or Aegis. If an enemy is far away, a Nightblade can use Destruction spells, ranging from long distance to damage on touch.
Disadvantages

Since they aren't skilled with Illusion magic, it may be wise to use as a side skill to cast invisibility spells, or choose The Shadow as a birthsign. They can probably be killed easily due to their lack of endurance, so it is best to also use Sneak as a side skill, too. It is hard to face hordes of enemies head-on with this type of class, also.

So if you ask me ATM everything is working as intended with the nightblade class

Sure those players that wanted to play the typical rogue like assassin are currently shafted as the skills to supplement that play style have yet to be implemented with the Dark Brotherhood and the Assassins guild, and yes that playstyle will not be exclusive to Nightblades when it gets released but to all classes, thankfuly

People constantly refer back to how nightblades were described in previous games, and tend to emphasize the use of magick as justification to why caster NB is the norm. I would argue that originally, in morrowind, offensive magic wasn't a part of the nightblades major skillset. Destruction was in the minor skills, but not major.

One handed blade was in nightblades major skillset, and seems to be the only included major skill that dealt damage, and had magic schools to buff and compliment (illusion/alteration) one handed blade and acrobatics.

Then in oblivion there was no listed minor skillset, so destruction was included simply because it was in the minor skill set and couldn't be forgotten. But just like in morrowind, blade and acrobatics were also included.

What I'm pointing out is many jump to this conclusion that NB in previous games was naturally a 'caster' simply because it had a lot of specialization in magicka. While how it really seems to me is that it was a stamina/magicka hybrid which primarily utilized stamina for damage and magicka for buffing.

Although that's describing the relationship using eso logic a bit. Regardless, I'm just a bit tired of that example being brought up when it can be justifiably argued quite the opposite as is presented >_<

The thing tough is I could go as far back as Arena and the class description would alwys come up the same, heck in Arena the Nightblade class wasn't even a rogue archetype but a mage archetype.

Daggerfall:

Nightblades

Possibly the most feared class of all is the nightblade. They possess many of the skills and philosophy of the thiefly classes, combined with the powers of the mage. Their natural agility and stealth, and their mastery of the School of Illusion, means nightblades are seldom seen, though their hand is certainly felt. Effective nightblades have high agility as well as high Intelligence and Willpower.

Primary Skills: Illusion, Stealth, Dodging
Major Skills: Thaumaturgy, Pickpocketing, Lockpicking

Arena:

Nightblades

Nightblades are those Mages who have perfected their arts to help in activities involving infiltration, spying, and stealth. They are much like Thieves, creatures of the night, able to use their considerable powers to help them in their nocturnal activities. In combat, Nightblades receive a chance per level of scoring a critical hit (triple damage). Nightblades can pick locks about as well as Rogues. They also receive 1.5 times their Intelligence in starting spell points.

Weapons: Dagger, staff, short bow, shortsword, saber
Armor: Leather only
Shield: Buckler only
Starting Health: 25 + d8
Special: Spell Points = (INT*1.5); 1% Critical Strike chance/level with any weapon (x3 damage); 50% Lockpick Effectiveness

Advantages

Like the Bard, Nightblades can critical strike, steal items and pick locks reasonably well, and fight with some potent weaponry (including ranged weapons).
The Nightblade has 50% more magicka at its disposal than the Bard, which means that it can cast better spells at lower levels, or cast weaker spells more often.
Some support spell effects are cheaper for Nightblades.

Disadvantages

Nightblades sacrifice some of their fighting ability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability.
Nightblades are unable to equip chain mail or any shield larger than a buckler.
The Nightblade levels up much more slowly than Bard and pure Mage.
Only Sorcerers and Mages have worse hit point gains than a Nightblad

And lastly the classes as they were distributed by Archetype in Arena



Now I will enter the realm of speculation, but when I look at that class list and compare it to the classes currently in game I will state that for now we only have mage archetype classes in game:

Dragonknight come closest to a Battle Mage
Templars come closest to Healers
Sorcerers are wells Sorcs
Nightblades well Nightblades

The point I wanted to make earlier is that the Nightblade has always been portrayed as a light armor wearing, dual blades wielding, magical assassin. Which role it can perform flawlessly as the best Nightblade builds currently employ only class abilities no one is stopping you from swapping that resto staff for dual daggers because the only reason to wear the staff was due to cycle of life which is no more .

The typical Rogue archetype as it is known from D&D or as many MMORPG players expect it from either EQ/WoW/DAoC is currently not supported by ESO due to missing skills which will, for that subset of the playerbase who want to live out this fantasy, hopefully be implement come the Thief and Dark Brotherhood guilds
This isn't an issue only pertaining to Nightblades as the Rogue/Thief/Assassin playstyles are currently not supported by ESO, even if there were no classes and we could merrily mix and match skill lines from all available skill trees.

Rogues aren't the only ones that are shafted in that regards ppl who want to live out the fantasy of the Knight in Shiny Armour forgoing all magical training as well as the Conan fantasy are playstyles that with the current set of available skills can only be played in a gimped version of themselves but then again this was true for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

Imagine Skyrim having a COOP mode where you could PvP in, a player who does not use any Magicka skills and therefore only relies on his light/heavy attacks with high skill value in lets say Dual Wield/Acrobatics/Medium Armor would get destroyed by a player with high Destruction/Alteration/Conjuration skills.
The former would be forced to pick up some form of magical abilities in the form of Buffs e.g. Absorption Shields/Resistance Bonuses/Blur or some other Illusion/Alteration magic in order to have a fighting chance, same as it is in ESO if you want to be effective as a melee build you need to either rely wholly on your class skills or mix and match em with your weapon skills at a preferred ratio of 3:2.
Remember the primary form of attacks is still light attacks weaved in with either class or weapon skills and when you deconstruct damage logs you'll see that light attack is usually your top or 2nd most damage dealing ability, well it is in case of a Sorc.

Heck you can't even recreate most mage types, we have Fire mages check (DK's with Firestaff) but they are missing their most signature spell: Fireball; Storm mages check (Sorcerer with lightning staff) but yet again missing signature DD spells like Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning, Frost mages not possible due to the Frost magic skill set only available with a frost staff and these are missing the typical control you get from frost magic; freezes, slows.
Even a druid or shaman, very difficult if not impossible ATM. Necromancer, impossible, Bard impossible, Monk again impossible.

I have been lucky on my end, I wanted to play a Spellsword like class and the game, luckily for me, supports that with the skills I have available in PvP. In PvE I too am shafted and need to go dress and stick only to be 3rd in line after DK's and NB's and before Templar's DPS and where the only class skills worth slotting are Surge and if the mob ain't undead then Mage's Wrath because if the mob is undead than Crushing Shock + Evil Hunter are still the best DPS even while in execute range.

I feel with you Thieves and Assassins but the constant whining won't do you any good, these skill lines are in the pipe and supposed to go live with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood implementation, whenever this is, be patient lieke many others who yet cannot impersonate their preferred fantasy class due to missing skill lines.

the ESO motto is "play how you want"

this does not mean "every build has to be equally effective" but it does NOT mean "stick and dress build be vastly superior to everything"

if I want to make a NB in all medium armor with DW, I should be able to do relatively well with it. it should not be so far behind compared to LA staff builds like it is now.

Samadhi

jackyd wrote: »

...

...
Now I will enter the realm of speculation, but when I look at that class list and compare it to the classes currently in game I will state that for now we only have mage archetype classes in game:

Dragonknight come closest to a Battle Mage
Templars come closest to Healers
Sorcerers are wells Sorcs
Nightblades well Nightblades
...

Feel like this bears some degree of insight regarding the favouring of Magicka builds.

jelliedsoup

Cody wrote: »

thorspark wrote: »

There has been something like 0 information from ZOS about the thief/dark brotherhood skill lines and when they will go live since the game launched.
Yeah, we saw a picture of the white hand at the end of the guild summit, but that's it.

1.5 brings no improvement to stamina based builds, since all class skills are still magicka based/magicka scaled.

It's supposed to happen in 1.6, but they'd better do it right because there's a lot of expectations here and a miss would be like a judgment day for many players.

jackyd wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

jackyd wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

I think your fallacy lies in assuming the Nightblade is a Stamina based rogue type assassin.

Here is the Nightblade class as it was in Oblivion:

Nightblade

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

Major Skills:

Mysticism
Illusion
Alteration
Sneak
Short Blade

Minor Skills:

Light Armor
Unarmored
Destruction
Marksman
Security

Spells:

Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

And for Comparison the Oblivion Nightblade

Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances. (in-game description)

Nightblades are effective assassins and enforcers. Their speed and skills allow them to easily reach places most others could not. Nightblades dispose of opponents with a quick blade and Destruction magic. They are also skilled in Alteration magic, and are proficient in healing themselves.

The Nightblade is a premade class.

Stats
Specialization

Magic

Favored Attributes

Willpower
Speed

Major Skills

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Use

Nightblades tend to favor light armor over heavy armor. They are adept healers and are good at using Alteration magic, casting spells to protect themselves, and so on. They use melee based blades to further weaken their foes while they dispatch them with their powerful spells of Destruction magic.

Their proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics is unusual for a class that specializes in magic, but they make great assassins and thieves due to their natural speed.
Blades

As the name references to, Nightblades use bladed weapons to further protect themselves. Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.
Magic

Since Nightblades are not naturally high in Intelligence, it is best to work on Conjuration, Mysticism, or Alchemy to gain a boost in Magicka reserves to cast more spells. Their high Willpower allows them to regenerate magic quickly, which can be used to let off more spells. Their high alteration skill allows them to protect themselves with spells such as Protect or Aegis. If an enemy is far away, a Nightblade can use Destruction spells, ranging from long distance to damage on touch.
Disadvantages

Since they aren't skilled with Illusion magic, it may be wise to use as a side skill to cast invisibility spells, or choose The Shadow as a birthsign. They can probably be killed easily due to their lack of endurance, so it is best to also use Sneak as a side skill, too. It is hard to face hordes of enemies head-on with this type of class, also.

So if you ask me ATM everything is working as intended with the nightblade class

Sure those players that wanted to play the typical rogue like assassin are currently shafted as the skills to supplement that play style have yet to be implemented with the Dark Brotherhood and the Assassins guild, and yes that playstyle will not be exclusive to Nightblades when it gets released but to all classes, thankfuly

People constantly refer back to how nightblades were described in previous games, and tend to emphasize the use of magick as justification to why caster NB is the norm. I would argue that originally, in morrowind, offensive magic wasn't a part of the nightblades major skillset. Destruction was in the minor skills, but not major.

One handed blade was in nightblades major skillset, and seems to be the only included major skill that dealt damage, and had magic schools to buff and compliment (illusion/alteration) one handed blade and acrobatics.

Then in oblivion there was no listed minor skillset, so destruction was included simply because it was in the minor skill set and couldn't be forgotten. But just like in morrowind, blade and acrobatics were also included.

What I'm pointing out is many jump to this conclusion that NB in previous games was naturally a 'caster' simply because it had a lot of specialization in magicka. While how it really seems to me is that it was a stamina/magicka hybrid which primarily utilized stamina for damage and magicka for buffing.

Although that's describing the relationship using eso logic a bit. Regardless, I'm just a bit tired of that example being brought up when it can be justifiably argued quite the opposite as is presented >_<

The thing tough is I could go as far back as Arena and the class description would alwys come up the same, heck in Arena the Nightblade class wasn't even a rogue archetype but a mage archetype.

Daggerfall:

Nightblades

Possibly the most feared class of all is the nightblade. They possess many of the skills and philosophy of the thiefly classes, combined with the powers of the mage. Their natural agility and stealth, and their mastery of the School of Illusion, means nightblades are seldom seen, though their hand is certainly felt. Effective nightblades have high agility as well as high Intelligence and Willpower.

Primary Skills: Illusion, Stealth, Dodging
Major Skills: Thaumaturgy, Pickpocketing, Lockpicking

Arena:

Nightblades

Nightblades are those Mages who have perfected their arts to help in activities involving infiltration, spying, and stealth. They are much like Thieves, creatures of the night, able to use their considerable powers to help them in their nocturnal activities. In combat, Nightblades receive a chance per level of scoring a critical hit (triple damage). Nightblades can pick locks about as well as Rogues. They also receive 1.5 times their Intelligence in starting spell points.

Weapons: Dagger, staff, short bow, shortsword, saber
Armor: Leather only
Shield: Buckler only
Starting Health: 25 + d8
Special: Spell Points = (INT*1.5); 1% Critical Strike chance/level with any weapon (x3 damage); 50% Lockpick Effectiveness

Advantages

Like the Bard, Nightblades can critical strike, steal items and pick locks reasonably well, and fight with some potent weaponry (including ranged weapons).
The Nightblade has 50% more magicka at its disposal than the Bard, which means that it can cast better spells at lower levels, or cast weaker spells more often.
Some support spell effects are cheaper for Nightblades.

Disadvantages

Nightblades sacrifice some of their fighting ability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability.
Nightblades are unable to equip chain mail or any shield larger than a buckler.
The Nightblade levels up much more slowly than Bard and pure Mage.
Only Sorcerers and Mages have worse hit point gains than a Nightblad

And lastly the classes as they were distributed by Archetype in Arena



Now I will enter the realm of speculation, but when I look at that class list and compare it to the classes currently in game I will state that for now we only have mage archetype classes in game:

Dragonknight come closest to a Battle Mage
Templars come closest to Healers
Sorcerers are wells Sorcs
Nightblades well Nightblades

The point I wanted to make earlier is that the Nightblade has always been portrayed as a light armor wearing, dual blades wielding, magical assassin. Which role it can perform flawlessly as the best Nightblade builds currently employ only class abilities no one is stopping you from swapping that resto staff for dual daggers because the only reason to wear the staff was due to cycle of life which is no more .

The typical Rogue archetype as it is known from D&D or as many MMORPG players expect it from either EQ/WoW/DAoC is currently not supported by ESO due to missing skills which will, for that subset of the playerbase who want to live out this fantasy, hopefully be implement come the Thief and Dark Brotherhood guilds
This isn't an issue only pertaining to Nightblades as the Rogue/Thief/Assassin playstyles are currently not supported by ESO, even if there were no classes and we could merrily mix and match skill lines from all available skill trees.

Rogues aren't the only ones that are shafted in that regards ppl who want to live out the fantasy of the Knight in Shiny Armour forgoing all magical training as well as the Conan fantasy are playstyles that with the current set of available skills can only be played in a gimped version of themselves but then again this was true for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

Imagine Skyrim having a COOP mode where you could PvP in, a player who does not use any Magicka skills and therefore only relies on his light/heavy attacks with high skill value in lets say Dual Wield/Acrobatics/Medium Armor would get destroyed by a player with high Destruction/Alteration/Conjuration skills.
The former would be forced to pick up some form of magical abilities in the form of Buffs e.g. Absorption Shields/Resistance Bonuses/Blur or some other Illusion/Alteration magic in order to have a fighting chance, same as it is in ESO if you want to be effective as a melee build you need to either rely wholly on your class skills or mix and match em with your weapon skills at a preferred ratio of 3:2.
Remember the primary form of attacks is still light attacks weaved in with either class or weapon skills and when you deconstruct damage logs you'll see that light attack is usually your top or 2nd most damage dealing ability, well it is in case of a Sorc.

Heck you can't even recreate most mage types, we have Fire mages check (DK's with Firestaff) but they are missing their most signature spell: Fireball; Storm mages check (Sorcerer with lightning staff) but yet again missing signature DD spells like Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning, Frost mages not possible due to the Frost magic skill set only available with a frost staff and these are missing the typical control you get from frost magic; freezes, slows.
Even a druid or shaman, very difficult if not impossible ATM. Necromancer, impossible, Bard impossible, Monk again impossible.

I have been lucky on my end, I wanted to play a Spellsword like class and the game, luckily for me, supports that with the skills I have available in PvP. In PvE I too am shafted and need to go dress and stick only to be 3rd in line after DK's and NB's and before Templar's DPS and where the only class skills worth slotting are Surge and if the mob ain't undead then Mage's Wrath because if the mob is undead than Crushing Shock + Evil Hunter are still the best DPS even while in execute range.

I feel with you Thieves and Assassins but the constant whining won't do you any good, these skill lines are in the pipe and supposed to go live with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood implementation, whenever this is, be patient lieke many others who yet cannot impersonate their preferred fantasy class due to missing skill lines.

the ESO motto is "play how you want"

this does not mean "every build has to be equally effective" but it does NOT mean "stick and dress build be vastly superior to everything"

if I want to make a NB in all medium armor with DW, I should be able to do relatively well with it. it should not be so far behind compared to LA staff builds like it is now.

This^^^

The l2p crowd are stale.

Kypho

Dont even comment the anti "rouge" ppl, dont even want to read those NtS comments from anti "rouge" ppl, just making some copy n paste about ESO nightblade, so everyone can decide, its stealth focused class, or not.

ASSASSIN'S BLADE I
Cast Time Instant
Target Enemy
Range 5 meters
Cost 25 Magicka
Deals 14 Magic Damage. Low Health targets take 300% additional damage.

TELEPORT STRIKE I
Cast Time 0.75 seconds
Target Enemy
Range 22 meters
Cost 53 Magicka
Player moves through the shadows, appearing next to the target. Deals 17 Magic Damage to target and stuns monsters for 1.5 seconds.

MASTER ASSASSIN I
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 5%. Successful stealthed attacks stun for 100% longer.

PRESSURE POINTS I
WITH AN ASSASSINATION ABILITY SLOTTED
Increases Critical Strike rating by for each Assassination ability slotted. Current bonus: 1.5%.

SHADOW CLOAK I
Cast Time Instant
Target Area
Radius 35 meters
Duration 2.5 seconds
Cost 56 Magicka
Gives player invisibility for 2.5 seconds.

VEILED STRIKE I
Cast Time Instant
Target Enemy
Range 5 meters
Cost 35 Magicka
Deals 22 Magic Damage to target. If stealthed or invisible, attack sets target off balance and stuns them for 4 seconds.

SHADOW BARRIER I
WHILE USING SHADOW ABILITIES
Increases Armor and Spell Resistance by 17 for 4 seconds when coming out of stealth or invisibility.



And why stamina?

FOCUSED ATTACKS I
Cast Time Instant
Target Self
Duration 20 seconds
Cost 49 Magicka
Increases attack speed with light and Heavy Attacks by 30% and increases combat Stamina recovery by 37%.


AAAAnd those are just few points why NB should be rouge, fast killers. Speaks for itself.

Erock25

Did you just complain about copy/paste and then do so yourself?

Kypho

Erock25 wrote: »

Did you just complain about copy/paste and then do so yourself?

I think you did not understand it, but i think you are one of the anti rouge ppl who got pwned by a defenseless highcritter NB, shame on you not on me.

Durham

Please fully test your classes ... on the live servers especially the high end duel NBs are very good atm.. 50/50 against DK.. utube it...watch it for yourslves .. sypher a solo DK has been playing a NB lately and takes out Dks out all the time....

Gilvoth

the only reason you think that,
is because in morrowind the leather armor was called light armor.
all daedric armor was heavy armor.
glass armor was light armor.
ebony armor was heavy armor.

this also is the same with skills used as the skills were nothing like what you see in eso.

here in eso, they took that armor and twisted what it was from the begining. so when you are reading descriptions of what the nightblade class was used for, what skills they used, and what armor they wore, you are getting a twisted image due to what you see in eso compared to what was happening in the single player games.
in addition to this, the dark brotherhood was different in morrowind compared to oblivion and even a touch into skyrim.
it is an unfair view when trying to compare them all and try to somehow equate it to elderscrolls online because they simply do not match.

Gilvoth

Durham wrote: »

Please fully test your classes ... on the live servers especially the high end duel NBs are very good atm.. 50/50 against DK.. utube it...watch it for yourslves .. sypher a solo DK has been playing a NB lately and takes out Dks out all the time....

i have also heard in the guild chat and also in zone chat that many people who have thier main characters as dragonights and also sorcerers are now allowing themselves to die to thier friends on video recording who are playing an "alt" as a nightblade on purpose because they are recording it and showing fake fights where the nightblade is the winner not by skill but by reason that they do not want any more increase in nightblades survivability and damage output from the developers because thier main characters are dragonights and sorcerers.

to say it bluntly:
those videos your seeing now are fake and made to see a winner when infact it wasnt even a real fight.

Erock25

Kypho wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Did you just complain about copy/paste and then do so yourself?

I think you did not understand it, but i think you are one of the anti rouge ppl who got pwned by a defenseless highcritter NB, shame on you not on me.

I understand this game, your post, and your class better than you ever will.

suycyco

Durham wrote: »

Please fully test your classes ... on the live servers especially the high end duel NBs are very good atm.. 50/50 against DK.. utube it...watch it for yourslves .. sypher a solo DK has been playing a NB lately and takes out Dks out all the time....

Once again, we all agree that the dress and staff NB played like a mage is pretty good, like all the other class wearing dress and staff.

The purpose of this topic is mainly, is how to play the NB differently than a mage and more specificly like a rogue now with the nerf of stealth damage.

Actually in ESO the synergie between light armor and restoration staff work very well, but sadly we don't find anothers so good synergies between other weapons and armor, due partially to the lack of regen magicka/stamina and also because the restoration staff have all the NB lacks (direct heals and shields).
Zenimax tried to do something giving blocking restoration to heavy armor and stam restoration on fully charge heavy attack but it's still very unbalanced.

I don't think personnaly that the NB is weak but it's powerfull on only very few builds and we would like more variety

thorspark

suycyco wrote: »

Once again, we all agree that the dress and staff NB played like a mage is pretty good, like all the other class wearing dress and staff.

The purpose of this topic is mainly, is how to play the NB differently than a mage and more specificly like a rogue now with the nerf of stealth damage.

Actually in ESO the synergie between light armor and restoration staff work very well, but sadly we don't find anothers so good synergies between other weapons and armor, due partially to the lack of regen magicka/stamina and also because the restoration staff have all the NB lacks (direct heals and shields).
Zenimax tried to do something giving blocking restoration to heavy armor and stam restoration on fully charge heavy attack but it's still very unbalanced.

I don't think personnaly that the NB is weak but it's powerfull on only very few builds and we would like more variety

I'll go further on this. Yeah, everybody can do ok with a staff and a robe.

Sypher's videos are awesome (very good PvP player) but all of them are based on the same mechanics (resto staff+ other weapon, robe, some class skill, mana sustain, shields).

I know for a fact that he looks forward to using a stamina build (TF Forums) but he hasn't switched yet since stamina is still way under magicka.

This post is about future of assassins/rogue gameplay, not only for NBs (even if they are the most capable for it), but for all players.
Since ZOS seems to constantly nerf this kind of gameplay, it's good to ask the question, cause we don't have high hopes at this point.

Kypho

Why cant you stop talking about ppl who doing ok in light armor against heavy and medium armoured ppl? stop that crap, all know, that EVERY class has cheese build with light armor and staff and 1h+sh. The game should NOT be just that. LA should NOT be better.

IMO!!!! ballance (So only IMO, no need to troll):

Light armor : Squishy because its a damn robe after all, but better in spells than others, but not so OP way as it does now.
Medium armor: medium defense, and high damage with crits (passives).
Heavy armor: high defense, far not so good dmg as medium (passives).

2h weapon: High DPS, less defense while blocking, slow attacks
DW: Very Good dps, fast, very low defense
1H+sh: loooow dps, your silly pve taunt, very high defense, fast

staffs are lulz so i dont care

And eso look like they tried to do similar balance, but failed badly.

examples:
MA 2h: good crit+dmg and good dmg with 2h
HA 2h: high defense+less dmg and good dmg with 2h so it would lower the overall dmg vs medium armor, but better defense

I know hardcore failcombat mechanic lovers (like eso is now), will disagree, i dont care. dont read if you dont like.

pretty high stacking nubpenetration, etc etc. what the lightarmor gives is insane.

So no more LA staff and 1h+sh crapblade examples pls. all know its not about NB its about LA staff and 1h+sh.

PS.: if they want to slowly remove stealthy characters, and obv. NB was created that way, looking at passives, and several abilities, first they should remove ALL classes. You should choose from ANY abilities for your character, not chosing a class what has hardcoded abilities.

Removing/Nerfing stealthy class because some ppl are lazy to prebuff, is not the fault of snipe. 2.7k is nothing if you using your tanking abilities, and most classes can spam it.

Why dont they fix abilities/weapons, what if combined together, you can tank and/or kill several ppl alone? It should be higher priority, that the complaints of the ppl who doesnt want to buff themself in pvp.

TheBucket

Durham wrote: »

Please fully test your classes ... on the live servers especially the high end duel NBs are very good atm.. 50/50 against DK.. utube it...watch it for yourslves .. sypher a solo DK has been playing a NB lately and takes out Dks out all the time....

Yeah, thats still one player. When I start seeing videos of guys playing Melee and not having to carry a resto staff. Right now, if you do not carry a Resto staff you are at a disadvantage.

Im hoping the Champion system has something for us.

You are either Resto Staff/Shield or Impulse bangers.

The rest are fighting an uphill battle. I only compete atm because im Thirsty Build. But i will say my Hybrid build is looking awesome.