How are you going support Assassin/Rogue type characters in the future?

MagnusRex

I'm posting this on behalf of my friend Decimus, who can't get on the forums at the moment.

Hello,

In the wake of the recent news about the removal of sneak attack damage bonus, I'm curious how ESO aims to cater to people who enjoyed playing stealth focused assassins or rogues from other (MMO)RPGs.

If the current changes active on the PTS stay, stamina builds will have equal DPS to magicka builds, but they will have less burst than several magicka builds. They will also lack the heals/dmg shields common to magicka builds (which is all fine, as those don't fit into the archetype of "assassin" or "rogue" anyhow).

So, I think the question is: are there any plans for something like stealth opener skills (e.g. Ambush/Cheap Shot from WoW), or other skills/abilities that would further incorporate the now rather meaningless stealth?

I know it still stuns and is a crit (most of the time), but the stun can actually harm you, not the opponent, when he breaks it and gets an immunity for the time when he's actually low on health (the time when you actually would want to CC him).

Critical Strike alone also means nothing, when it doesn't put your opponent low on health and doesn't deal enough damage to counter the healing/damage shields of opponent.

How is a stamina build supposed to kill someone quickly now, before his friends heal/dmg shield him up? If that is not supposed to be possible, how will the stamina build fight now in bigger battles with multiple opponents, when there is no unbreakable CCs in the game?

The viability of assassins/rogues has been taken away, how can it be returned?

Sincerely,
Decimus

Lorkhan

man, stop hoping.
ESO don't aims to cater to people who enjoyed playing stealth focused assassins or rogues from other (MMO)RPGs.
they actually want to slowly remove this type of gameplay.
all they want is zerg trains, cant u see?

thorspark

It's quite simple for me. If this change to stealth damage goes live, I'll cancel my subscription. I mean it.

Takuto

Personally, I'm disappointed at the TESO's lack of submachine guns, and very disappointed in ZOS's disinterest in supporting my favored play-style.

Come on, this is a game where PVP 1v1 fights are generally measured in minutes, and your complaining that your 0.3 second TTK is going to go to 0.8 seconds due to having to swing your sword a second time to make up for the 100 damage you lost on your opener? Is your character build really so dependent on your opponent not fighting back?

On wait, I'm responding to a guy who hasn't tested the changes, and hasn't even logged onto PTS, due to the fact he isn't subscribing to the game. I guess that makes my submachine gun reference a bit more relevant.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Takuto wrote: »

Personally, I'm disappointed at the TESO's lack of submachine guns, and very disappointed in ZOS's disinterest in supporting my favored play-style.

Come on, this is a game where PVP 1v1 fights are generally measured in minutes, and your complaining that your 0.3 second TTK is going to go to 0.8 seconds due to having to swing your sword a second time to make up for the 100 damage you lost on your opener? Is your character build really so dependent on your opponent not fighting back?

On wait, I'm responding to a guy who hasn't tested the changes, and hasn't even logged onto PTS, due to the fact he isn't subscribing to the game. I guess that makes my submachine gun reference a bit more relevant.

Please stop writing now, your logic and reasoning are not wanted here. Around here, we all agree that the sky indeed is falling and nazis are riding on dinosaurs.

On a related note, I too miss machine guns though.

Erock25

Why is someone without a subscription having other people post his thoughts on the boards? Isn't he done with the game? This topic should be deleted.

LilChihuahua

Lorkhan wrote: »

man, stop hoping.
ESO don't aims to cater to people who enjoyed playing stealth focused assassins or rogues from other (MMO)RPGs.
they actually want to slowly remove this type of gameplay.
all they want is zerg trains, cant u see?

Exactly this. Could not have said it any better.

Ragefist

MagnusRex wrote: »

In the wake of the recent news about the removal of sneak attack damage bonus

You (and your friend Decimus) are simply misinformed, sneak attack bonus is still in place, the bonus has merely been reduced.

What they do for stamina builds ... well, you didnt read the patch notes, did you?

Gilvoth

that assassin type rouge style is not from other mmo's
it comes directly from the dark brotherhood playstyle and reward of stealth kills as bonuses.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

thorspark wrote: »

It's quite simple for me. If this change to stealth damage goes live, I'll cancel my subscription. I mean it.

I am pretty close to this as well, I just changed my sub tonight from 6 months to a 1 month as it renews on 11/5. I am gonna wait until I see this on the live server and if it is really horrible in PvP then that might be the last month ZOS gets from me.

I am really tired of holding on and waiting for them to fix Shadow Cloak and then they do this..

If this goes live and it's bad I might really be leaving because it's just a Joke at this point, they just don't want to deal with the Nightblade class...

They are now on Probation in my eyes and they have maybe 1-3 months tops to really start getting stuff done right. So they better get their act together or I will be leaving..

Ragefist

Can I have your stuff fellas? Please?

thorspark

@whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO‌ : Yeah, as we discussed on TamrielFoundry over my Silencer build, it's really the whole NB/Stealth gamestyle that has been broken since the beginning and is even nerfed more with this.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

I wonder if these people with the gimmick builds have considered getting into groups of four and stacking 4 sneak attacks onto the same target as a coordinated group and all popping invis pots and running away after their kill. I doubt that zos will ever nerf sneak attacks so much that coordinated strikes like that would lose effectiveness.

I think you guys should just wait it out and try things like - send out your snipe swap to 2h, charge in just as your sneak snipe works and mash executioner on their face. Perhaps even trying to build a character that is capable of going toe to toe now that we all have a stam weapon damaged based heal and equal damage per second.

As far as burst damage is concerned, just chain a heavy attack up with wrecking blow and the new deathstroke. With good timing you can push out ~ 2.5k damage all at once which can lead in to 800-1000 damage non crit hits of executioner - plenty to counter damage shields and hello 50% reduced healing from deathstroke.

Palidon

Their not. That type of play style is slowly but surely getting destroyed by ZOS. Want to play a Rouge/Stealth Assassin Type Character move on to another game.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I wonder if these people with the gimmick builds have considered getting into groups of four and stacking 4 sneak attacks onto the same target as a coordinated group and all popping invis pots and running away after their kill. I doubt that zos will ever nerf sneak attacks so much that coordinated strikes like that would lose effectiveness.

I have played with Bow Gank squads but the the thing is we shouldn't have to just to be effective..

Bushrat

I am sick and tired of the nerfing of stealth hunters receive. I am totally sick of this BS... we Night Blades NEED to be able get some bonuses from killing from stealth!!!! does anyone at Zenimax understand this?!?!!?

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

thorspark wrote: »

@whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO‌ : Yeah, as we discussed on TamrielFoundry over my Silencer build, it's really the whole NB/Stealth gamestyle that has been broken since the beginning and is even nerfed more with this.

I added Decimus's Reddit Post to My TF thread, and everthing he states I totally agree on,

links-

Decimus's Reddit Post-

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2jzkjn/important_question_sneak_damage_removal/?sort=old

and Mine at TF,
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/stealth-attacks-getting-a-nerf-in-1-5-1-patch/

Thejollygreenone

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I wonder if these people with the gimmick builds have considered getting into groups of four and stacking 4 sneak attacks onto the same target as a coordinated group and all popping invis pots and running away after their kill. I doubt that zos will ever nerf sneak attacks so much that coordinated strikes like that would lose effectiveness.

I think you guys should just wait it out and try things like - send out your snipe swap to 2h, charge in just as your sneak snipe works and mash executioner on their face. Perhaps even trying to build a character that is capable of going toe to toe now that we all have a stam weapon damaged based heal and equal damage per second.

As far as burst damage is concerned, just chain a heavy attack up with wrecking blow and the new deathstroke. With good timing you can push out ~ 2.5k damage all at once which can lead in to 800-1000 damage non crit hits of executioner - plenty to counter damage shields and hello 50% reduced healing from deathstroke.

Lol you just described my current build. A few variations here and there, like I throw in a poison injection/light attack between the snipe and the 2h swap just for the DoT, and I have my NB veiled strike ready on my 2h bar in case the target isn't low enough for execute to pack a sizable punch.

Other than that, spot on. Good show, this build will indeed be an interesting possibility for a gank build that can stand toe to toe when the enemy doesn't get instagibbed.

As of now though, there's not enough durability to it. When the momentum change is added, as well as being able to lethal arrow mid combat? Ooo boy, am I going to have some fun.

Still might not match up to the bubble stacking builds out there, but I've got some faith this builds after-opener play will be much stronger than before.

TheBucket

I would like to see a Dirty Tricks ability similar to a Merc in DAoC. But works on careers as well

Chrlynsch

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

Gilvoth

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

jackyd

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

I think your fallacy lies in assuming the Nightblade is a Stamina based rogue type assassin.

Here is the Nightblade class as it was in Oblivion:

Nightblade

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

Major Skills:

Mysticism
Illusion
Alteration
Sneak
Short Blade

Minor Skills:

Light Armor
Unarmored
Destruction
Marksman
Security

Spells:

Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

And for Comparison the Oblivion Nightblade

Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances. (in-game description)

Nightblades are effective assassins and enforcers. Their speed and skills allow them to easily reach places most others could not. Nightblades dispose of opponents with a quick blade and Destruction magic. They are also skilled in Alteration magic, and are proficient in healing themselves.

The Nightblade is a premade class.

Stats
Specialization

Magic

Favored Attributes

Willpower
Speed

Major Skills

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Use

Nightblades tend to favor light armor over heavy armor. They are adept healers and are good at using Alteration magic, casting spells to protect themselves, and so on. They use melee based blades to further weaken their foes while they dispatch them with their powerful spells of Destruction magic.

Their proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics is unusual for a class that specializes in magic, but they make great assassins and thieves due to their natural speed.
Blades

As the name references to, Nightblades use bladed weapons to further protect themselves. Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.
Magic

Since Nightblades are not naturally high in Intelligence, it is best to work on Conjuration, Mysticism, or Alchemy to gain a boost in Magicka reserves to cast more spells. Their high Willpower allows them to regenerate magic quickly, which can be used to let off more spells. Their high alteration skill allows them to protect themselves with spells such as Protect or Aegis. If an enemy is far away, a Nightblade can use Destruction spells, ranging from long distance to damage on touch.
Disadvantages

Since they aren't skilled with Illusion magic, it may be wise to use as a side skill to cast invisibility spells, or choose The Shadow as a birthsign. They can probably be killed easily due to their lack of endurance, so it is best to also use Sneak as a side skill, too. It is hard to face hordes of enemies head-on with this type of class, also.

So if you ask me ATM everything is working as intended with the nightblade class

Sure those players that wanted to play the typical rogue like assassin are currently shafted as the skills to supplement that play style have yet to be implemented with the Dark Brotherhood and the Assassins guild, and yes that playstyle will not be exclusive to Nightblades when it gets released but to all classes, thankfuly

Xsorus

TheBucket wrote: »

I would like to see a Dirty Tricks ability similar to a Merc in DAoC. But works on careers as well

It's called heated blade and it's in the dual wield line

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I wonder if these people with the gimmick builds have considered getting into groups of four and stacking 4 sneak attacks onto the same target as a coordinated group and all popping invis pots and running away after their kill. I doubt that zos will ever nerf sneak attacks so much that coordinated strikes like that would lose effectiveness.

I have played with Bow Gank squads but the the thing is we shouldn't have to just to be effective..

I disagree - mostly - with that statement. Firstly - the vast majority of PVP is heavily reliant on being in a coordinated group built around a tactic of some description (see: zergtrain :P) The people who are effective solo, are so because they're in the top 5% most skilled players, not necessarily because they've adopted the 'meta' build. There is - for instance a very clear distinction between a good ganker and a bad ganker - mostly revolving around decision making and access to optimal itemization.

This however is going to change to a good ganker being defined by decision making, gear, build path and ability to follow up. Much the same as other builds today. A ganksquad will and always will be extremely effective at picking off targets at long range. Much the same as a zerg train will and always will be extremely effective at gathering en-masse objectives. However highly skilled individuals/small groups (to keep in the same scale of ganksquad/zerg train) are capable of pulling off the same task with a much smaller group.

There is no, and never will be a problem with this state of being. As it stands in live however - the only difference between a good ganker and a bad ganker is if they get caught after making a kill or not. This is a bad state of game and needs to be changed.

Xnemesis

errrr..... thiefs guild dark brotherhood patch!? and update 6 will have more balance tweaking, so ive heard

Gilvoth

Xnemesis wrote: »

errrr..... thiefs guild dark brotherhood patch!? and update 6 will have more balance tweaking, so ive heard

oh?

Nox_Aeterna

I dont think they want people to play ESO like an fps where you can just explode other players in seconds.

So probably they will nerf this kind of damage but maybe give players some other edge like debuffs... that come from stealth.

MrGhosty

as DW/Bow NB I don't have any issues with the reduction to stealth damages, what I do have a problem with, is that by changing that and not adjusting other playstyles we are put at a disadvantage.

I'm sure i'm playing my NB "wrong" but I prefer to use my stealth attacks for more than ganking between two keeps, I don't personally enjoy that gameplay.
Now with reduction in stealth dmg opener, it may only mean I have to swing my sword one more time or use another skill, but in laggy cyrodiil that's another second of time that can lag and get me perma pinned to the ground while a DK or Sorc nukes me.

I think the fact, that NBs roles continued to be whittled down in the name of balance when we need that slight advantage to even threaten the uber builds that can go toe to toe with multiple people at once. I support balance, and making fights more about proper positioning and attune to a give and take in a head to head is an awesome change. I just wish those balance changes would be applied to our enemies as well.

Sotha_Sil

I think we deserve an official answer about these legitimate questions.

Thejollygreenone

jackyd wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

I think your fallacy lies in assuming the Nightblade is a Stamina based rogue type assassin.

Here is the Nightblade class as it was in Oblivion:

Nightblade

Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

Major Skills:

Mysticism
Illusion
Alteration
Sneak
Short Blade

Minor Skills:

Light Armor
Unarmored
Destruction
Marksman
Security

Spells:

Shield (Shield 5 points for 30 seconds on self)
Water Walking (Water Walking for 60 seconds on self)
Fire Bite (Fire Damage 15-30 points on touch)
Chameleon (Chameleon 10% for 30 seconds on self)
Sanctuary (Sanctuary 10 points for 30 seconds on self)
Detect Creature (Detect Animal 50-150 feet for 5 seconds on self)

And for Comparison the Oblivion Nightblade

Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances. (in-game description)

Nightblades are effective assassins and enforcers. Their speed and skills allow them to easily reach places most others could not. Nightblades dispose of opponents with a quick blade and Destruction magic. They are also skilled in Alteration magic, and are proficient in healing themselves.

The Nightblade is a premade class.

Stats
Specialization

Magic

Favored Attributes

Willpower
Speed

Major Skills

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Use

Nightblades tend to favor light armor over heavy armor. They are adept healers and are good at using Alteration magic, casting spells to protect themselves, and so on. They use melee based blades to further weaken their foes while they dispatch them with their powerful spells of Destruction magic.

Their proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics is unusual for a class that specializes in magic, but they make great assassins and thieves due to their natural speed.
Blades

As the name references to, Nightblades use bladed weapons to further protect themselves. Daggers and shortswords are good to use because the Nightblade tends to be quick and agile, allowing for quick attacks while blasting their foes with destruction magic. Longswords are slower and less quick, but can be deadly if it is used just the right way with a Nightblade. Claymores are not recommended.
Magic

Since Nightblades are not naturally high in Intelligence, it is best to work on Conjuration, Mysticism, or Alchemy to gain a boost in Magicka reserves to cast more spells. Their high Willpower allows them to regenerate magic quickly, which can be used to let off more spells. Their high alteration skill allows them to protect themselves with spells such as Protect or Aegis. If an enemy is far away, a Nightblade can use Destruction spells, ranging from long distance to damage on touch.
Disadvantages

Since they aren't skilled with Illusion magic, it may be wise to use as a side skill to cast invisibility spells, or choose The Shadow as a birthsign. They can probably be killed easily due to their lack of endurance, so it is best to also use Sneak as a side skill, too. It is hard to face hordes of enemies head-on with this type of class, also.

So if you ask me ATM everything is working as intended with the nightblade class

Sure those players that wanted to play the typical rogue like assassin are currently shafted as the skills to supplement that play style have yet to be implemented with the Dark Brotherhood and the Assassins guild, and yes that playstyle will not be exclusive to Nightblades when it gets released but to all classes, thankfuly

People constantly refer back to how nightblades were described in previous games, and tend to emphasize the use of magick as justification to why caster NB is the norm. I would argue that originally, in morrowind, offensive magic wasn't a part of the nightblades major skillset. Destruction was in the minor skills, but not major.

One handed blade was in nightblades major skillset, and seems to be the only included major skill that dealt damage, and had magic schools to buff and compliment (illusion/alteration) one handed blade and acrobatics.

Then in oblivion there was no listed minor skillset, so destruction was included simply because it was in the minor skill set and couldn't be forgotten. But just like in morrowind, blade and acrobatics were also included.

What I'm pointing out is many jump to this conclusion that NB in previous games was naturally a 'caster' simply because it had a lot of specialization in magicka. While how it really seems to me is that it was a stamina/magicka hybrid which primarily utilized stamina for damage and magicka for buffing.

Although that's describing the relationship using eso logic a bit. Regardless, I'm just a bit tired of that example being brought up when it can be justifiably argued quite the opposite as is presented >_<

Cody

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

U every think that changes may be in place in preperation for the champion system, they may have something in store for stealthers, let alone thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

i want soo badly for that to be the truth. and for a few months i was believing that was the case and i was allowing myself to think like what you are mentioning. but as i saw them constantly decrease skills for stealth and stamina based class like us nightblades and constantly still see them decreasing abilities and skills for us and now realizing that the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild will hold skill lines for "all" classes and playstyles and the wording used while they made the changes to us nightblades and nerfed skill after skill after skill (including hidden nrfs to us) it just hit me slowly over time that what your suggesting is , well, basicly an imposibility.
the only thing keeping me going at this point is hope in that champion system and skill lines, that it might hold to help my duel wield / stamina based / stealth based / medium armor wearing / dark brotherhood assassin / rouge type nightblade. and also my love for morrowind and hopes we will perhaps oneday see Vvardenfell in elderscrolls online.
i do love eso and she is a fun and great game but ...

wait... so the dark brotherhood and thieves guild will NOT be mainly, stealth based guilds? with mainly stealth based abilities? are you serious...... please tell me I just read that wrong.