Would you like to see Forward Camps Removed from the Game?

Braidas

YES

I mean, there're better options than just taking them out completely, but if it's one or the other, yes get rid of 'em.

Tankqull

NO

removing them is the wrong step

the entire pvp-release system needs a slight revamp.

1. tents - only player dieing within the lockout range for another tent are able to release to the tent and releasing to a tent should cost 5 soulshards.
2. genereal release - only keeps with an intact porter line to one of the two starter camps are accessable to be released to.

KleanZlate

NO

I don't want them removed but I also don't like how they are at the moment. You shouldn't be able to suicide to teleport across the whole map.

c0rp

YES

LonePirate wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Until camps are removed from game they will continue to lead to zerg blobbling, lag, and make the strategy of supply/transit lines moot.

Zerg blobbing and lag are independent of camps and occur with them. Removing camps will not put an end to either phenomena. Nor will we see much of a reduction in zerg blobbing. In fact, we might even see more of it as people who resurrect at a camp will likely wait a few moments for the allies to form a zerg rather than continue the steady stream of players into a keep siege like we see today.

Also, the supply lines reason is a weak one when confronted by reality. All sides use camps for both offensive and defensive purposes. There is no victim here that needs to be protected.

If camps are removed, one or more of these will happen.

-- Battles involving all three factions at the opposite ends of the maps (the north for AD, the southeast for DC and the southwest for EP) will be much more rare.

-- Far fewer instances of two factions teaming up against the other to take scrolls will occur. Events like this weekend's actions on Thornblade NA where DC and EP simultaneously attacked and stole both of AD's scrolls will largely be a thing of the past.

-- Diversion tactics where one faction captures and holds an enemy's gate keep but no other nearby keeps will largely vanish.

-- Scrolls will be stolen less frequently as combatants for both sides will not be able to rejoin the fight easily. If a scroll is stolen, the third alliance with focused and fully supplied forces can wait and ambush the depleted squad with the stolen scroll.

-- Nightcapping or daycapping will increase in frequency and intensity as that will be the only time some keeps or scrolls are captured. It may also be the only times an Emperor is ever crowned.

-- Those complaining about ESO being a Horse Simulator will be more vocal than ever as noticeable amounts of time will be spent on horseback rather than in siege battles.

Some people may be frustrated with them but removing them will have a negative effect on the game.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. Besides the AOE CAP itself, the next biggest contributor to zergs and blobbing is FCs.

When FCs were broken (beta and some time after launch) the supply lines between keeps mattered and increased the strategy of the game. Since FCs were "fixed" supply lines can be removed from the game and it would not even affect gameplay the slightest.

If ZOS is unable to get the "radius spawn" working due to "its too hard with our server tech" then I would rather have them removed from game then have some band-aid fix like PVP rank req and a higher cost.

CrazedDark

NO

Camps do need to be reworked, but getting rid of them outright before weighing in both sides of the argument is pointless and doesn't lead to a happy resolution. There are so many good points for and against, but we need to think real hard about what the cost/benefit of each change could be before decision.

eliisra

NO

Nidwin wrote: »

Can you give us numbers about those "suicide porting in general"?

I've played, more than I should, past 2 weeks (EP on Thorn) and I don't have the feeling this being common practice.

Also suicide with 2.2K-2.5K health isn't that easy, except if you have a known way to do it efficiently. Tell me about how to do it, just in case, you know?

Everyone in organized groups uses suicide to travel. Place one camp in each keep, than when under attack, everyone suicides and travels half the map to defend.

Random clusters of players will use it less frequently. They act more like a horde of zombie walkers, everyone will automatically run in the same direction, usually the closest enemy keep, castle, fort or outpost.

To get a PvP suicide, you need one hostile NPC or player nearby. You dont have to die to that specific entity. It's enough to get in combat, like use a heal on someone, than jump from the keep roof or a cliff. I spam Equilibrium myself to loose health quicker. But most common is running into enemy resources.

Topic: I'm also feed up with blobs spamming camps, for no other reason than farming AP. But I think we need to re-design certain things in Cyrodiil before we nerf travelling to much. Issue is how you loose a keep in less than 3 minutes, if no camp is up. By the time you get there by mount, it's already flipped.

Agrippa_Invisus

NO

I vote no, but with a caveat.

They need to be changed, drastically, but they do not need to be removed.

They need the following two changes --

1. They need to give a rez sickness debuff when used, that debuff needs to last at least two minutes, and it needs to be strong enough to make the person who just rezzed quite weak (and worth 0 AP). As it is, they are being spammed endlessly to allow zergs to spawn rush opposing teams without break. This means whomever is withstanding the rush must deal with wave after wave of enemies with no breaks. This is especially difficult if they're in a situation where they cannot maintain their own FC. Eventually they will be worn down. This is not a fun. Keeps need to not give the debuff as it should be beneficial to the defenders to maintain their keeps and keep the walls from being damaged. (this part here, if not changed, will become exacerbated with the proposed oil changes as it becomes even harder to wipe that zerg and even more likely to leave the defenders short on resources/manpower to combat the next fresh wave)
2. They need to only allow rezzing from within their radius. This eliminates 'Blood Gating' or 'Tentaporting' across the map. Whatever you want to call it. There should be a real power to cutting transit and supply lines. Factions should not be encourages to leave enemy resource nodes near backfield keeps to act as Suicide Nodes.

There should be zero benefit to dying on the battlefield unless returning to the Gate Fortress safe areas is your goal. You should always be free to leave Cyrodiil.

As it is, death is a MASSIVE benefit in Cyrodiil. You die to transit across the map. You die to regain all your resources (HP/Stam/Magicka) when in a protracted fight.

Give the walls of keeps a buff so they have many more HP so the keep isn't burned down in 3 minutes like they are right now and that prevents stealth capping and allows you to function defensively without needing FCs all the time in every keep.

Kosar

NO

They should not be removed, but i am a HUGE proponent of making them guild or group based, not area or death related. there are frequent times our guild drops them to gather our 20-24 man team and 18 spots go to people outside our grouping. we drop another and get 12 people in and 8 militia. we drop another and finally complete our group but now everyone else is dropping camps.

this very common situation does lead to the zerging, and that is usually what we are trying to avoid. suddenly our ninja mission is wrecked because randoms are throwing siege everywhere, taking resources we were going to skip, and going all out to alert the other alliance(s) to our presence. so the FC does cause the map blobbing everyone sorta despises but from our standpoint it is actually completely hindering our attempts at low-key strategy every night.

the only counterargument i see though is think about the first three months when FCs were broken nearly entirely. the game was FAR more spread out. you could actually get 5, 10, 20 different fights going in various numbers without the lag fest of 100v100v100 as the only thing going on. we were forced to stay more spread out and actually utilize gem stones to rez after being forced to win or go home in every fight. it made holding keeps actually worth something so you could rez somewhere. now everything is an AP grind flip fest cause we can literally rez anywhere and everywhere--and bring everyone with us.

as i said though, they can't be removed... link them to the user's group only, or guilded ones to move 2 guild groups at once...or implement both types.

c0rp

YES

effinshiddy wrote: »

the only counterargument i see though is think about the first three months when FCs were broken nearly entirely. the game was FAR more spread out. you could actually get 5, 10, 20 different fights going in various numbers without the lag fest of 100v100v100 as the only thing going on. we were forced to stay more spread out and actually utilize gem stones to rez after being forced to win or go home in every fight. it made holding keeps actually worth something so you could rez somewhere. now everything is an AP grind flip fest cause we can literally rez anywhere and everywhere--and bring everyone with us.

This is one of the biggest ways that FCs have ruined the game. They shrink the map, give death no consequence, and make keep travel meaningless. If ZOS doesnt see this, then they don't even play the game they are making.

Kewljag_66_ESO

YES

Nidwin wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

To put it in few words:

When i do play PvP , i dont want to play a walking simulator. Pretty much i dont want to walk a lot more than actually fight.

This.

Those FC when used properly and wisely gives us also very dynamic keep defenses and offenses.

Forwards camps were never meant for keep defense, they are a staging point for an attack and an offensive rez release at the fight. A forward camp was actually a real thing back in the day as a staging point for an attack and your command base.

But in this game they are a keep defense tool more powerful than anything else, They remove the tactic and point of cutting of a supply line. they allow you to suicide anywhere on the map to be ported instantly inside a keep to defend, they also allow you travel across the map, making the map size and your tactical location meaningless. How realasistic is a forward camp as a "defending camp?" you already own the keep, the whole keep is your defensive staging point and base, what would setting up a forward camp inside do?

Maulkin

I don't feel any option represents me in this poll.

I don't like them the way they are but I don't want them removed either. I want some changes made to how they work.

ghengis_dhan

NO

When a fight is evenly balanced, forward camps become a tactical target. If you can take out your enemy's camps while keeping yours up, you will eventually win the fight.

Once the developers have worked out the programming issues so we can only rez at a camp we are near, it will fix a lot of other problems as well. With all the blood porting going on, we get too many players in one spot at the same time, which causes noticeable lag and even crashes.

Xsorus

YES

They're one of the biggest problems in this game right now.

As for the people saying "well I hate walking simulator"...It doesn't take that long to get to a keep from another if you using the porting system....Yes you will actually have to control the supply line..but that's how the bloody game is suppose to work.

Evergnar

NO

Absolutely not. Some changes need to be made however to put an end to troll camps. I like the idea of changing the area around a keep including resources to always allow a camp in that area.

Cody

NO

Nidwin wrote: »

@Cody‌

Till now I was never told to do this in all the pug groups I was in. Leader always told to port to objective X, group up and leave together to reach objective Y.

Anyway.
Suicide is a common practice in MMORPG, both PVE and RvR.

in "organized" groups, this is a common command. heck iv had it told last time I was in a group, just a few days ago

michaelb14a_ESO2

YES

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't feel any option represents me in this poll.

I don't like them the way they are but I don't want them removed either. I want some changes made to how they work.

Fair enough. Given the ability to post to the discussion after responding to a poll on the forum pretty much appends a "but" to any option answer. The up or down vote is really there to measure the sentiment of their current effect on game-play and the pain point level for players. In other words, it's extreme on purpose.

In your case, you have the opinion of "No" which is interpreted as: "Given the choice between their current implementation and having them removed from the game entirely, you would choose to leave them in" You then added a caveat to your response by posting "However...." a perfectly valid response. When I word polls I don't like to pigeon hole people into a solution by trying to measure more than one thing in one question , I would much rather people qualify their responses in the discussion rather then trying to build that response bias into the poll itself.

eventide03b14a_ESO

NO

Keep the forward camps, but limit them. Right now if I want to travel across the map I just commit suicide and I can revive at any forward camp. You should only be able to revive at forward camp that is within a certain radius to where you died. Additionally there should be a timer like 15 minutes before you can revive at a forward camp again.

Armitas

NO

I was surprised at first to see it so skewed but after I scrolled through the first page I saw that the answers were more complicated than yes or no. It seems like everyone is either "yes... but "or "no...but." That includes myself. There are good points on both sides so I wonder if a compromise might be best.

akemp333_ESO

YES

YES!!!!!!!!!

Please remove Forward camps from the game!!!!!!

A fellow guild member wrote this on our guild forums and I thought I would repost it since I fell the same way he does.

Forward Camps. I have no ******* clue why they haven't acted on this. Not one. It is THE number one request by not only our guild, but by many other PVP guilds or guilds that ZOS meets with. Here is a very old post by a PVP guild bringing up the issue, as well as others. Here is another thread on the front page of the main forums lamenting what was talked about during the live stream. If there is one thing that has been absolutely ******* consistent in criticism and complaint for the past two months on the PVP side, it is Forward Camps. There have been numerous suggestions made, and the first they plan to implement is to change who can use them? To avoid "trolling" with the camps? What the ****? We don't give a **** who uses the camps; we care HOW they're used. They either haven't listened, which means these meetings are a waste of time, or they don't care, which shows disrespect for their players. I don't care if we think it's been said one too many times, they need to be asked, "Why haven't you implemented any of the suggestions made about forward camps?" J told us the designers are changing direction based on these meetings. So, who is rallying for the FCamps to stay the same? We know it's not us, and we don't have posts representing entire guilds asking for them to remain as is. Nothing I've said hasn't been said already and it needs to be made perfectly clear in strong terms that it is unacceptable to be able to rez entire zergs of players with full resources over and over. It trivializes death, strategy, planning and combat.

That's my main request at the moment. It would absolutely change the way PVP works for the better. Transit lines would need to be considered, Scouts would need to be used to track enemy movement, care would be taken in engagements.

Hawke

YES

I am in vote of a change in how the forward camps work. It works too well for a mass zerg insta respawn. While it is great for crazy massive action, it allows for too many people to constantly instantly respawn on top of an active battle.

I remember in the DAOC days that when you died and did not get rezed, you hauled it back to the fight. it allows defenders to beef up defenses, or aggressors to actually take the keep without massive amounts of people insta respawning and getting back into the fight.

But then again... there needs to be more incentive to take and defend keeps and other end game pvp stuff... but I tend to be a patient man.

liquid_wolf

NO

They need to be fixed, not removed.

Perhaps only usable by groups? Guilds? Alliances?

Some kind of debuff for using a camp?

A lot of different options... some worse than others... lets just improve them, rather than remove them.

Dudis

YES

Add stronger ressing.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Keep the forward camps, but limit them. Right now if I want to travel across the map I just commit suicide and I can revive at any forward camp. You should only be able to revive at forward camp that is within a certain radius to where you died. Additionally there should be a timer like 15 minutes before you can revive at a forward camp again.

This pretty much. 15 minutes is a bit much though imo.

Maybe add an AP cost to releasing similar to the one for teleporting to wayshrines?

First time you release it'll cost 2k AP, then if you want to release to a tent again it'll cost you say 30k, ticking back down over about 10 minutes. This way you have a choice to waste all your AP on releasing over and over or you can run.

(Or you could just try to avoid dying to begin with rather than release+charge over and over.)

Releasing to and porting between keeps would obviously be free.

michaelb14a_ESO2

YES

Dudis wrote: »

(Or you could just try to avoid dying to begin with rather than release+charge over and over.)

But what about...

Asgari

YES

Yes, it will break up the zergs and force people to fight open field along with removing the current issue of troll camps.

Jaxsun

NO

Stop the QQ about troll camps. There are lots of other issues that need to be fixed first.

Dudis

YES

Troll camps isn't the reason people want them removed.

Domander

NO

Nidwin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

So suicide porting across the map(and suicide porting in general) should be a thing of the past.

Can you give us numbers about those "suicide porting in general"?

I've played, more than I should, past 2 weeks (EP on Thorn) and I don't have the feeling this being common practice.

Also suicide with 2.2K-2.5K health isn't that easy, except if you have a known way to do it efficiently. Tell me about how to do it, just in case, you know?

I've been moving from spot to spot after teleports from linked building to move to keep offense and defense and I had plenty of company from players doing exactly what I was doing.

um... really? It's very common, mostly out of necessity.

I don't like it but there's really no other option right now, if you try to ride everywhere by the time you get to the battle it's over.

There's these portals in the keep corners guarded by npcs.... It seems like they were meant for something that didn't get put in the game. I'd like to be able to teleport to them like you do to wayshrines, have it cost AP and the cost go down as time goes on like the wayshrine system. If enemy shuts down the portals (kill the npcs) you can't get there anymore that way.

Forward camps should be a local rez within the current camp circle.

ghengis_dhan

NO

Nidwin wrote: »

Can you give us numbers about those "suicide porting in general"?

I've played, more than I should, past 2 weeks (EP on Thorn) and I don't have the feeling this being common practice.

Also suicide with 2.2K-2.5K health isn't that easy, except if you have a known way to do it efficiently. Tell me about how to do it, just in case, you know?

I've been moving from spot to spot after teleports from linked building to move to keep offense and defense and I had plenty of company from players doing exactly what I was doing.

Ride your horse up to an enemy's resource flag and see how fast it takes you to die. This is the most common method.

I rode with a large group a couple of weeks ago. Someone in the group stealthed down to the lake shore west of Sejanus. We finished our keep capture and took two of the resources. When we rode to the third one, the group leader told us over TeamSpeak to suicide at the resource. The guy down by Sejanus put up a forward camp. And, as each one of us rode our horse to our death, we rez'd at the forward camp. We stealthed up to Sejanus and began our siege.

If I need to take a short break when I'm near a resource, I'll sometimes run into the tower and turn up the volume. Occasionally, I'll hear the NPC guards make a commotion, and I'll run back to watch enemy players ride their horse up to the flag without getting off.

This is called "blood porting", and many players in all factions are doing it. I don't like it, but it's a mechanic of the game. And until ZOS addresses it, it will keep going on.

Draxys

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

This is not a fun.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

ThyIronFist

I DON'T KNOW

They need to find a sweet spot concerning FCs. Don't remove them entirely.