Blocking And Attacking

Khivas_Carrick

The two should be able to be done at the same time. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere on these forums about it and I'm about to make another because it's one of many issues causing a serious issue here.

In PvP a DK just kicked my ass so badly I decided to use the same DK as a means to suicide to leave Cyrodiil. Why did he stomp me a new a**hole? Simple, he held block the entire time and spammed the *** out of flame lash. He took pretty much no damage and did enough damage to put an M1 Abrams to shame.

That's a bit nuts if you ask me, and quite possibly terrible game design from a combat perspective of PvP.

GoatKnuckle

OK. Go outside and bring your handy sword & shield with you. Fasten the shield to your left arm. Hold your sword in your right. Raise your shield and try swinging your sword. Works, doesn't it?

Why does this seem absurd?

Khivas_Carrick

Because real life =/= game design bubsy.

In a real fight, damn right I'm going block and punch the hell out of you, probaly grab you too.

In a game, damn near any game, how often do you see somebody that's able to block an entire stream of attacks while also using their strongest attacks at the enemy?

It's an idea that can be done, sure, but only if the attack takes a substantial damage loss since, well, the enemy is also not doing jack to you.

GoatKnuckle

I can think of loads of games where you can block & attack at the same time especially ones set in the TES universe. If you mean just MMOs ... Practically all of them. Blocking usually isn't an active part of gameplay where you have to consciously make the decision to block, but rather done for you via RNG.

But yes I see your point. I haven't PvP'd in this game yet but I am not without experience in this. I just don't think changing a core mechanic like this that is available for all classes would be the answer.

People have been able to "turtle up" since the Greeks. And people have found a way to counter it. I'm sure there is a way in this situation as well.

A DK with no stamina cannot block.

Fellhand_ESO

I don't mind that people can block and attack, but I think there should some tradeoffs. Like doing less damage with abilities while blocking and/or reducing the amount of damage blocked while using abilities.

Two-Dogs

When blocking + attack becomes first tactical choice, the obvious choice, the 'smart way of playing'- it's no longer a choice.

I don't mind that people can block and attack, but I think there should some tradeoffs. Like doing less damage with abilities while blocking and/or reducing the amount of damage blocked while using abilities.

Something needs to change, aye.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I think they should just add a greater penalty when people keep blocking without the requiere stamina left. Right now magicka builds can just keep blocking, even while out of stamina, and use their instant abilities without any drawbacks.

The stagger alone isn't enough, because to exploit the stagger effect you have to heavy attack the target. You are going to put the target down but since he blocked your attack you also end up staggered during the process. (wich is stupid)

Blocking without the requiere stamina left should Stagger (like it already does) and stun the target for a set duration so that players actualy get into a disadvantage position when they turtle block for to long.

Two-Dogs

Not going to claim to have THE solution, some things that could be considered:

- Stamina drain on holding block. Not much, but enough to result in those holding block will find themselves out of stamina quicker than those timing blocks.

- Abilities used while holding block cost more to use.

- Blocking then re-blocking within in a given time frame results in a stamina cost.

- Holding block for X seconds causes block to cancel, requiring Y seconds before it can be used again.

- Somewhat draconian: No casting while holding block.

guybrushtb16_ESO

GoatKnuckle wrote: »

OK. Go outside and bring your handy sword & shield with you. Fasten the shield to your left arm. Hold your sword in your right. Raise your shield and try swinging your sword. Works, doesn't it?

Why does this seem absurd?

In the real world it would be absurd because you can't block an attack that is actually meant to hurt you by just holding your shield in it's general direction. Likewise, you can't put any weight behind your swings and still maintain full cover with your shield arm.

Back to the game of course, none of this actually matters, but perma blocking still makes for pretty bland gameplay IMO. It could be much more reactive if there were moves like block breakers, creating gaps in defense and exploiting them afterwards, timed blocks and so on.

Cody

in my opinion, it ties in with the block system itself.

c'mon, lets all be honest, a staff or a greatsword should not block near as much damage as a shield. in this game, a wooden staff blocks exactly the same amount of damage that a shield does, the shield simply lets you do it a few seconds longer(which is really not that much of a difference,if I hit someone that is blocking, with flurry/rapid strikes, until my stamina goes from full, to empty, and they can STILL keep block up, while they have been blocking with a weapon, then the passive from the shields are not really needed)

if they wont fix the; what I like to call, "block and spam" issue, ZOS can at least apply some common sense into blocking.

I don't have a problem with someone with a shield blocking 95% of my damage. Its supposed to, but when someone with a wooden stick(obviously not the only example) ALSO blocks 95% of my damage...... I start to question what the ZOS devs were thinking when designing this block system. A weapon should not block as much damage as a shield.

Khivas_Carrick

GoatKnuckle wrote: »

I can think of loads of games where you can block & attack at the same time especially ones set in the TES universe. If you mean just MMOs ... Practically all of them. Blocking usually isn't an active part of gameplay where you have to consciously make the decision to block, but rather done for you via RNG.

But yes I see your point. I haven't PvP'd in this game yet but I am not without experience in this. I just don't think changing a core mechanic like this that is available for all classes would be the answer.

People have been able to "turtle up" since the Greeks. And people have found a way to counter it. I'm sure there is a way in this situation as well.

A DK with no stamina cannot block.

Not quite my friend. In this case it's a bit easy to change it because it's not exactly a core mechanic, it's just something that's there. If anything this would actually help to balance combat in a massive way. Also, other MMO's blocking is completely automatic but balanced by the fact that it occurs solely by chance, along with the facet that it blocks usually around 30% and not much higher or lower, with that mitigation further aided by barriers and armor, which do not work in this game the same way despite having similar forms of operation.

drbr.bd101ub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't mind that people can block and attack, but I think there should some tradeoffs. Like doing less damage with abilities while blocking and/or reducing the amount of damage blocked while using abilities.

^This. Like Goat had said, I'm all for blocking and attacking, it adds a slight depth of realism to it. As someone else said, you should not be able to realistically be able to get in a full swing while blocking or block everything simply by raising your shield to the full effect of the block. If the devs were to implement (to be honest I actually think they are, after all they've listened to a bunch of stuff the players have talked about and implemented them, so this wouldn't surprise me at all) some form of blocking but being able to attack with far less damage, many cries would be quelled nearly instantly with such ferocity that Obi-Wan would feel it in his chest from beyond the grave.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I think they should just add a greater penalty when people keep blocking without the requiere stamina left. Right now magicka builds can just keep blocking, even while out of stamina, and use their instant abilities without any drawbacks.

The stagger alone isn't enough, because to exploit the stagger effect you have to heavy attack the target. You are going to put the target down but since he blocked your attack you also end up staggered during the process. (wich is stupid)

Blocking without the requiere stamina left should Stagger (like it already does) and stun the target for a set duration so that players actualy get into a disadvantage position when they turtle block for to long.

Ehh, this would partially address the issue, and I say partially because it only half solves the problem. A possible better way would be a simpler fix to either grossly reduced damage while attacking, or have it that once an enemy is out of stamina, the block, while still being held up, blocks absolutely nothing.

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

GoatKnuckle wrote: »

OK. Go outside and bring your handy sword & shield with you. Fasten the shield to your left arm. Hold your sword in your right. Raise your shield and try swinging your sword. Works, doesn't it?

Why does this seem absurd?

In the real world it would be absurd because you can't block an attack that is actually meant to hurt you by just holding your shield in it's general direction. Likewise, you can't put any weight behind your swings and still maintain full cover with your shield arm.

Back to the game of course, none of this actually matters, but perma blocking still makes for pretty bland gameplay IMO. It could be much more reactive if there were moves like block breakers, creating gaps in defense and exploiting them afterwards, timed blocks and so on.

It actually shocks the hell out of me that Two-Handed Melee doesn't have a method to do this. That's the [snip] weapon's specialty, utterly smashing things. It isn't as fast or as blade-stormy as Dual Wielding, nor as piercing and accurate as a Bow and Arrow, and the reason for that is it's meant to crush and cleave and forcibly remove limbs and people from a battlefield in a gloriously gory fashion.

And it currently doesn't which is very disappointing.

Cody wrote: »

in my opinion, it ties in with the block system itself.

c'mon, lets all be honest, a staff or a greatsword should not block near as much damage as a shield. in this game, a wooden staff blocks exactly the same amount of damage that a shield does, the shield simply lets you do it a few seconds longer(which is really not that much of a difference,if I hit someone that is blocking, with flurry/rapid strikes, until my stamina goes from full, to empty, and they can STILL keep block up, while they have been blocking with a weapon, then the passive from the shields are not really needed)

if they wont fix the; what I like to call, "block and spam" issue, ZOS can at least apply some common sense into blocking.

I don't have a problem with someone with a shield blocking 95% of my damage. Its supposed to, but when someone with a wooden stick(obviously not the only example) ALSO blocks 95% of my damage...... I start to question what the ZOS devs were thinking when designing this block system. A weapon should not block as much damage as a shield.

This guy wins a cookie. I am of the same mindset that blocking with a shield is the chief among chiefs for blocking, it's literally why a shield exists and nothing more. In fact, if you really wanted to make this game in-depth as hell and exciting (well more exciting) you'd make it so that shields would block 100% on the first hit from a single add or player, and -5% per hit there after, even on channeled abilities, e.g: Puncturing Sweeps would count as four hits despite it being one move, because it's four hits within a channel, same for things like Soul Strike, Flurry, Wall Of Elements, Staff Attacks, etc. Also Note that this is per add, so if a tank in PvE fights 10 adds and they all attack at the same time, the tank will not suddenly be boned and sent to 50% effectiveness for blocking, he'd be at 95% for each add still.

From there Greatswords would be second best with 75% block starting, DW at 50%, then staffs and bows both at 30% and then lower.

Oh and FFS men, make it so you can't block everything to your side or rear by simply holding block. The only game that gets away with using shields to block anything and everything is SWTOR, and that's because their "Shields" are freaking energy barriers that surround the body, that makes sense. Omni-directional blocking does not make sense for a fantasy setting where a shield is literally a giant piece of metal, wood, or stone (or all three).

Did I hit everything? Can I go to sleep now? No? Ok. ***.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Domander

If you hold block you lose out on light and heavy attacks.

Two-Dogs

Domander wrote: »

If you hold block you lose out on light and heavy attacks.

What's your point?

Or is this a public service announcement?

Head.hunter

Seems more a question of DK's blocking and using lava whip. Maybe what's needed here is a counter for that type of fighting style, which I'm thinking must be range.

aclarkob14_ESO

Just make block 180 degree frontal arc. That's all that really needs to be balanced.

Khivas_Carrick

No, because people can still spam instant attacks that aren't channels for full damage while blocking

Athas24

GoatKnuckle wrote: »

I can think of loads of games where you can block & attack at the same time especially ones set in the TES universe. If you mean just MMOs ... Practically all of them. Blocking usually isn't an active part of gameplay where you have to consciously make the decision to block, but rather done for you via RNG.

A DK with no stamina cannot block.

It is somewhat crazy. I just realized I can spam magicka skills while blocking constantly and not take damage. It's sweet haha. It is somewhat of an issue I guess because in other games there is no active block, it's passive.
I think having some sort of stamina drain on your weapons will help here though. Put an enchant that drains stamina and gives your hp back. That might help.

Cody

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

GoatKnuckle wrote: »

OK. Go outside and bring your handy sword & shield with you. Fasten the shield to your left arm. Hold your sword in your right. Raise your shield and try swinging your sword. Works, doesn't it?

Why does this seem absurd?

In the real world it would be absurd because you can't block an attack that is actually meant to hurt you by just holding your shield in it's general direction. Likewise, you can't put any weight behind your swings and still maintain full cover with your shield arm.

Back to the game of course, none of this actually matters, but perma blocking still makes for pretty bland gameplay IMO. It could be much more reactive if there were moves like block breakers, creating gaps in defense and exploiting them afterwards, timed blocks and so on.

YES. BLOCK BREAKING, YOU GET X100000000000000000000000000 INSIGHTFULS FROM ME

idk why this was not in the two handed skill line to begin with.

the whole point of Two handed weapons is to break through heavy armor, and break/crush things. the fact that a wooden stick can block a giant, Steel battle-axe, is completely absurd, and really needs to be looked at. it would also be cool if the bow had some kind of attack that ignored block. maybe something like snipe...... heck, I dare say every weapon should have block breaking of some kind.

The only block breaker in the game atm is the NBs Aspect of Fear, and that only works out half the time, because enemies can block WHILE FEARED.

ZOS needs to look at how they did blocking, and redo it.

Cody

Domander wrote: »

If you hold block you lose out on light and heavy attacks.

you can go entire battles without actually using your weapon, and you will be just fine. iv seen it done close to a hundred times. I am not exaggerating. all the "elite" players, don't even use light/heavy attacks, they just use abilities.

Gilvoth

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

The two should be able to be done at the same time. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere on these forums about it and I'm about to make another because it's one of many issues causing a serious issue here.

In PvP a DK just kicked my ass so badly I decided to use the same DK as a means to suicide to leave Cyrodiil. Why did he stomp me a new a**hole? Simple, he held block the entire time and spammed the *** out of flame lash. He took pretty much no damage and did enough damage to put an M1 Abrams to shame.

That's a bit nuts if you ask me, and quite possibly terrible game design from a combat perspective of PvP.

yes, and those flame lashes hit for about 560 - 760 each hit, sometimes critical for more. only takes about 5 - 7 hits from that to kill most people.

Domander

Two-Dogs wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If you hold block you lose out on light and heavy attacks.

What's your point?

Or is this a public service announcement?

The point is that there is a lot of extra damage that you lose out on while blocking, and now resource return.

Maybe instead of people wanting to break the blocking mechanic by making it useless, they should ask for light and heavy attack damage to be increased, or for CC to not get blocked

or

people could just learn that using all of their resources (as in skills that cost resource) trying to damage someone who is blocking isn't always the best strategy.

Domander

Cody wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If you hold block you lose out on light and heavy attacks.

you can go entire battles without actually using your weapon, and you will be just fine. iv seen it done close to a hundred times. I am not exaggerating. all the "elite" players, don't even use light/heavy attacks, they just use abilities.

of course you can, and you gain a lot of extra defense by doing so, it also prevents most CC, but you ARE going to do less free damage. Everyone can and at times should block (or dodge), if you don't then you deserve to lose.

I think people who complain about block are mad because they couldn't kill someone in 3 seconds and ended up losing because they didn't think ahead. You can't block forever.

Domander

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

The two should be able to be done at the same time. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere on these forums about it and I'm about to make another because it's one of many issues causing a serious issue here.

In PvP a DK just kicked my ass so badly I decided to use the same DK as a means to suicide to leave Cyrodiil. Why did he stomp me a new a**hole? Simple, he held block the entire time and spammed the *** out of flame lash. He took pretty much no damage and did enough damage to put an M1 Abrams to shame.

That's a bit nuts if you ask me, and quite possibly terrible game design from a combat perspective of PvP.

yes, and those flame lashes hit for about 560 - 760 each hit, sometimes critical for more. only takes about 5 - 7 hits from that to kill most people.

Flame lash only does that much damage to vampires. 500ish range with fire resistance.

A normal character that blocks it will take around 200 something damage.

Spangla

it is ridiulous that in pvp u can be 360 protected whilst spamming aoe - properly gayboy tactic

Blooddancer

I find it somewhat amusing that we are talking realism in a game with demons, vampires and lava whips.

Parry and riposte, look at blocking in that way and it is not quite as bad.

Besides if you introduce arcs of engagement and counter tactics all the facerollers will get upset at having to think in combat.

Armitas

What if they made traits like "sharpened" also penetrate block mitigation?

Two-Dogs

Domander wrote: »

Two-Dogs wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

If you hold block you lose out on light and heavy attacks.

What's your point?

Or is this a public service announcement?

The point is that there is a lot of extra damage that you lose out on while blocking, and now resource return.

The 'damage lost from light/heavy attacks' is moot when the survivability gained from block+ability is so great.

You live longer, a lot longer, when using block+ability, allowing you to burn down those that are dumb enough not to block+ability.

Khivas_Carrick

Nah, I like sharpened as is. Also I blocked and dodged too, and I'm a non-vamp and I got hit that hard by flame lash. *** kicked me on the crotch man lol

Thechemicals

Keep it the same. Its no different than a night blade flat out disapearing or a Sorcerer bolt escaping to egypt or a templar spamming blazing shield. Its another aspect of the game that has its place. You can moan all you like but it has a counter, you just arent using your brain when you faceroll your rotation. At least a blocker is sticking around for the fight.... no matter what kind of fight it may be.

Khivas_Carrick

Blazing Shield got fixed, can't spam and build it up anymore, so unless you got a better argument, I'll just leave this thread right here.

Orchish

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Blazing Shield got fixed, can't spam and build it up anymore, so unless you got a better argument, I'll just leave this thread right here.

Um yes it can still be spammed and can still stack crazy damage.