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[Feedback / Petition] Please reinstate Nights Silence + Dark Stalker stacking
Atarax
✭✭✭
Before posting a response, I request that people at least read how it worked first. Please stick to the facts, and the topic, if you respond.
I am creating this thread for two purposes; to:
1. Explain the mechanics of how stealth speed worked pre-1.4 to people who may have misconceptions.
2. Request that devs re-instate the stacking of Nights Silence + Dark Stalker.
In the process, I will also examine the arguments I have seen for and against the stacking, as well as the pros and cons of allowing this in-game.
If you agree that it should be reinstated after reading the section on mechanics, click "Agree" or /sign the post, if you disagree, click "LOL" or /unsign the post. If you /unsign, it would be helpful if you state your reason why.
The Mechanics
Some people seem to think that the stacking of Night's Silence +Dark Stalker could "make people run faster than horses sprint" and "enable them to escape from combat at will." Here is how it actually worked:
Out of Combat State:
1. Click crouch
2. Wait 3 seconds to hide if no enemies are nearby
3. The speed increase takes hold when the "eye" closes completely
In Combat State:
1. Run out of combat range OR use invisibility potions OR use Cloak
2. Stay hidden, do not take damage or get spotted (mages cloak and detect potions will break it), for approximately 10 seconds
3. If you manage that, you will drop out of combat state, the eye will close, and your movement speed will increase
As you can see, it was not a get out of jail free card. At best, it was a fun "get around faster when not in combat" card.
So what happened with the stacking, just how fast were people moving? Let's compare horses vs. speed:
(source in-game data &:http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/129146/lets-clear-up-the-whole-stealth-speed-issue-w-vampires-hard-data-and-actual-testing-inside)
Base movement speed
No mount, walking = 100%
Sprinting = 125%
Horses
Standard horse, no sprint, no apples: +15% =115%
Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%
Pros:
1. Horses can sprint indefinitely
2. You can wear any 5-peice armor set you want
Cons:
1. You can be seen at a distance
2. The fastest horse costs ~47k + 50 apples @250 each= ~60,000g
Stealth
Stealth speed, no tricks: 60%
Stealth speed + concealed weapon: 75%
Dark stalker + stealth: 100%
Night's Silence + stealth: 100%
Dark stalker + stealth + concealed weapon: 128%
Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%
Dark stalker + stealth + concealed weapon + night's silence: 186%
Pros:
1. You cannot be seen as long as you remain in stealth (unless someone gets you with mage light or detect potions)
2. You move 14% slower than the fastest horse sprints
Cons:
1. Moving in stealth eats stamina quickly
2. You cannot stealth in combat, it will take you at least 10 seconds of being out of combat before the speed kicks in.
3. You must be a vampire, which makes you take 50% more damage from fire (or give up a jewellery slot to lower that to 25%)
4. To get the fastest stealth, as a nightblade, you must use an active ability slot for concealed weapon, which is only good as an opener out of stealth, otherwise you are 26% slower than you otherwise would be
5. You must give up another 5-peice armor bonus for Night's Silence set.
6. You must either carry two sets of armor, or make Night's Silence your main set.
7. A white night's silence set will cost approximately 5000g from players, if you want a gold suit, assuming you are a risk taker that got lucky, and only used 3 upgrade materials each at purple and gold, the cost for a 5-peice suit at today's prices is:
700g for 1 purple upgrade material * 3: 2100 per peice
2500g for 1 gold upgrade material *3: 7500 per peice
Total: 9,600g per peice * 5 peices= 48,000 gold (conservatively), the reality is, if you want to be sure you'll get the suit on the first attempt, and count the yellow and blue mat costs, total cost is closer to.... wait for it.... ~60,000 g.
I can also confirm firsthand that the fastest mounts sprinting are faster than a nightblade running the full setup. I was grouped with two friends in Cyrodiil who had maxed fast mounts. I would gradually fall behind, then run out of stamina, then have to rest. One of them decided to start casting rapid manoeuvre on us. He would cast, mount, then sprint off ahead of me, when it ran out, he would dismount. Even running constantly, I was barely able to get into range to catch the rapid manoeuvre before he cast.
Arguments for:
1. It's "fun" (yes, I put this first intentionally)
2. Anyone can do it (at least night's silence + dark stalker)
3. It is inconsistent that all other passives stack with armor bonuses, but this one does not
4. It appears "balanced" in that it requires 1) investment on a par with the fastest mount to make it viable in combat, 2) loss of flexibility by forcing the slotting of an active ability 3) increased susceptibility to fire 4) giving up an alternative 5-set bonus
5. Preventing the stacking makes the only "nightblade / vampire esque" armor suit obsolete
6. It fits within the genre (a vampire, that moves fast, wearing enchanted armor that makes you move fast, should move even faster)
7. It's a bit of fun that Nightblades enjoyed; this was huge for the poorest performing class at the moment which isn't much fun to play in it's current state (IMO)
8. It's fun.
Arguments against (and counterarguments):
1. "It's not realistic" "It offends my sensibilities!"--> Please note, this is a game with vampires, not reality, if I wanted reality, I'd be at the office; in the fantasy genre, vampires are often portrayed as moving very quickly, as a vampire wearing enchanted armor that costs a fortune and makes you move faster, I should be able to move faster, it fits in the genre. You not liking it or not understanding it, is not a reason to change the way abilities stack, or for a non-combat setup to be nerfed.
2. "It allows users to escape combat whenever they want!" --> No, as you can see from the way the mechanics work, that is simply not true, it doesn't take hold in combat; the ability you're thinking of is called "Bolt Escape" and it is over that way --->
3. "But I paid so much for my mount!" --> People who use this set-up in combat sacrifice even more, and probably paid just as much.
4. "It's OP!!!!ROFLCOPTER" --> Why? In what way? All it does, again, is let you move faster out of combat, and there are significant trade-offs to being able to do so.
5. "The Devs may have some grand secret design we all don't know about that would make this OP" --> Given that it's not OP now, I don't really see how that could happen, but let's assume that's possible for a moment, how about we agree to cross that bridge if we come to it?
Conclusion:
Night's silence + dark stalker lets you move fast stealthed, but not faster, nor as far, as similarly-priced horses are capable of, it also comes with some heavy trade-offs. But, it's fun. Please return it to the way it was in 1.3.
Edited by Atarax on September 16, 2014 6:18AM I am creating this thread for two purposes; to:
1. Explain the mechanics of how stealth speed worked pre-1.4 to people who may have misconceptions.
2. Request that devs re-instate the stacking of Nights Silence + Dark Stalker.
In the process, I will also examine the arguments I have seen for and against the stacking, as well as the pros and cons of allowing this in-game.
If you agree that it should be reinstated after reading the section on mechanics, click "Agree" or /sign the post, if you disagree, click "LOL" or /unsign the post. If you /unsign, it would be helpful if you state your reason why.
The Mechanics
Some people seem to think that the stacking of Night's Silence +Dark Stalker could "make people run faster than horses sprint" and "enable them to escape from combat at will." Here is how it actually worked:
Out of Combat State:
1. Click crouch
2. Wait 3 seconds to hide if no enemies are nearby
3. The speed increase takes hold when the "eye" closes completely
In Combat State:
1. Run out of combat range OR use invisibility potions OR use Cloak
2. Stay hidden, do not take damage or get spotted (mages cloak and detect potions will break it), for approximately 10 seconds
3. If you manage that, you will drop out of combat state, the eye will close, and your movement speed will increase
As you can see, it was not a get out of jail free card. At best, it was a fun "get around faster when not in combat" card.
So what happened with the stacking, just how fast were people moving? Let's compare horses vs. speed:
(source in-game data &:http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/129146/lets-clear-up-the-whole-stealth-speed-issue-w-vampires-hard-data-and-actual-testing-inside)
Base movement speed
No mount, walking = 100%
Sprinting = 125%
Horses
Standard horse, no sprint, no apples: +15% =115%
Standard horse, no sprint, maxed out apples: +65% =165%
Fast horse, no sprint, maxed out apples:+75% =175%
Fast horse, maxed out apples, sprint: +75%+25%=200%
Pros:
1. Horses can sprint indefinitely
2. You can wear any 5-peice armor set you want
Cons:
1. You can be seen at a distance
2. The fastest horse costs ~47k + 50 apples @250 each= ~60,000g
Stealth
Stealth speed, no tricks: 60%
Stealth speed + concealed weapon: 75%
Dark stalker + stealth: 100%
Night's Silence + stealth: 100%
Dark stalker + stealth + concealed weapon: 128%
Dark stalker + stealth + night's silence: 160%
Dark stalker + stealth + concealed weapon + night's silence: 186%
Pros:
1. You cannot be seen as long as you remain in stealth (unless someone gets you with mage light or detect potions)
2. You move 14% slower than the fastest horse sprints
Cons:
1. Moving in stealth eats stamina quickly
2. You cannot stealth in combat, it will take you at least 10 seconds of being out of combat before the speed kicks in.
3. You must be a vampire, which makes you take 50% more damage from fire (or give up a jewellery slot to lower that to 25%)
4. To get the fastest stealth, as a nightblade, you must use an active ability slot for concealed weapon, which is only good as an opener out of stealth, otherwise you are 26% slower than you otherwise would be
5. You must give up another 5-peice armor bonus for Night's Silence set.
6. You must either carry two sets of armor, or make Night's Silence your main set.
7. A white night's silence set will cost approximately 5000g from players, if you want a gold suit, assuming you are a risk taker that got lucky, and only used 3 upgrade materials each at purple and gold, the cost for a 5-peice suit at today's prices is:
700g for 1 purple upgrade material * 3: 2100 per peice
2500g for 1 gold upgrade material *3: 7500 per peice
Total: 9,600g per peice * 5 peices= 48,000 gold (conservatively), the reality is, if you want to be sure you'll get the suit on the first attempt, and count the yellow and blue mat costs, total cost is closer to.... wait for it.... ~60,000 g.
I can also confirm firsthand that the fastest mounts sprinting are faster than a nightblade running the full setup. I was grouped with two friends in Cyrodiil who had maxed fast mounts. I would gradually fall behind, then run out of stamina, then have to rest. One of them decided to start casting rapid manoeuvre on us. He would cast, mount, then sprint off ahead of me, when it ran out, he would dismount. Even running constantly, I was barely able to get into range to catch the rapid manoeuvre before he cast.
Arguments for:
1. It's "fun" (yes, I put this first intentionally)
2. Anyone can do it (at least night's silence + dark stalker)
3. It is inconsistent that all other passives stack with armor bonuses, but this one does not
4. It appears "balanced" in that it requires 1) investment on a par with the fastest mount to make it viable in combat, 2) loss of flexibility by forcing the slotting of an active ability 3) increased susceptibility to fire 4) giving up an alternative 5-set bonus
5. Preventing the stacking makes the only "nightblade / vampire esque" armor suit obsolete
6. It fits within the genre (a vampire, that moves fast, wearing enchanted armor that makes you move fast, should move even faster)
7. It's a bit of fun that Nightblades enjoyed; this was huge for the poorest performing class at the moment which isn't much fun to play in it's current state (IMO)
8. It's fun.
Arguments against (and counterarguments):
1. "It's not realistic" "It offends my sensibilities!"--> Please note, this is a game with vampires, not reality, if I wanted reality, I'd be at the office; in the fantasy genre, vampires are often portrayed as moving very quickly, as a vampire wearing enchanted armor that costs a fortune and makes you move faster, I should be able to move faster, it fits in the genre. You not liking it or not understanding it, is not a reason to change the way abilities stack, or for a non-combat setup to be nerfed.
2. "It allows users to escape combat whenever they want!" --> No, as you can see from the way the mechanics work, that is simply not true, it doesn't take hold in combat; the ability you're thinking of is called "Bolt Escape" and it is over that way --->
3. "But I paid so much for my mount!" --> People who use this set-up in combat sacrifice even more, and probably paid just as much.
4. "It's OP!!!!ROFLCOPTER" --> Why? In what way? All it does, again, is let you move faster out of combat, and there are significant trade-offs to being able to do so.
5. "The Devs may have some grand secret design we all don't know about that would make this OP" --> Given that it's not OP now, I don't really see how that could happen, but let's assume that's possible for a moment, how about we agree to cross that bridge if we come to it?
Conclusion:
Night's silence + dark stalker lets you move fast stealthed, but not faster, nor as far, as similarly-priced horses are capable of, it also comes with some heavy trade-offs. But, it's fun. Please return it to the way it was in 1.3.
50 Bosmer Nightblade
50 Breton Sorcerer
50 Dunmer Dragonknight
50 Imperial Templar
50 Khajit Nightblade
50 Imperial Dragonknight
50 Altmer Sorcerer
50 Argonian Templar
Discussions of Interest:
Class Balance in 1.6
Quest Choices
Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
50 Breton Sorcerer
50 Dunmer Dragonknight
50 Imperial Templar
50 Khajit Nightblade
50 Imperial Dragonknight
50 Altmer Sorcerer
50 Argonian Templar
Discussions of Interest:
Class Balance in 1.6
Quest Choices
Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking
10
-
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭The fact that you can even move faster in stealth than any character can sprint is just downright bad game design to begin with.
Stealth speed should be capped at the same velocity as regular sprinting.- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore7 -
curlyqloub14_ESO✭✭✭✭I second this petition wholeheartedly.
(Unless they remove all other armor stacking in similar ways - then we're on even playing ground.)4 -
Atarax✭✭✭The fact that you can even move faster in stealth than any character can sprint is just downright bad game design to begin with.
Stealth speed should be capped at the same velocity as regular sprinting.
Why?
Edit: Note, unless you have a good reason, I'm guessing it's because of Argument against #1 (i.e. it offends your sensibilities). This is not a good reason for a nerf.Edited by Atarax on September 16, 2014 6:38AM50 Bosmer Nightblade
50 Breton Sorcerer
50 Dunmer Dragonknight
50 Imperial Templar
50 Khajit Nightblade
50 Imperial Dragonknight
50 Altmer Sorcerer
50 Argonian Templar
Discussions of Interest:
Class Balance in 1.6
Quest Choices
Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking1 -
Blackthorn51✭✭✭/Signed.
This is a well prepared post on the topic and I agree 100% with everything the OP has stated. Please fix this.2 -
ShirleyShine✭✭✭I sign. Read your post, and learned a lot as a noob mmo player and a lowly level 45 NB. Thank you. I love my NB armor.War....war never changes2 -
GnatB✭✭✭✭Edit: Note, unless you have a good reason, I'm guessing it's because of Argument against #1 (i.e. it offends your sensibilities). This is not a good reason for a nerf.
Sure it is. And it's not a nerf, it's a fix. If there was a bug that let you run through mountains, that should be fixed. It makes no sense in the worlds logic If there was a bug that let you hit "]" and "[" to go straight up/down (with no lev spell) that should be fixed. Similar, being able to sneak faster than you can run makes no sense, regardless of the faster than most horses, or whether or not it's faster than the fastest horse strawman.
And seriously, 5k for a white set? You got ripped.
Weakness to fire? Please, the other benefits to vampirism already more than make up for that.
Not useful in combat? So? People paying thousands for speed horses that aren't useful in combat. Why? Speed is an advantage. So what if you have to swap weapons/change armor. You also have to dismount your horse.
All that said, I don't think they took the correct approach to fixing it.
They should have:
1. Changed all the stealth speed boosts to behave as a reduction to the penalty instead.
2. Changed the Vampire passive (and the one set that behaves similarly) that currently completely eliminate the penalty to either: a. 80% or so stealth penalty reduction, or b. +15% or so base movement speed bonus at night/inside. (so sneak, walk, run, sprint are all faster)
3. Made them all stack.
Generally I tend to believe that if it's broken when you make things from different sources stack, (which it is) that probably means you didn't implement it correctly in the first place, not that you should pick/choose what to stack.
Achievements Suck5 -
Atarax✭✭✭
Stuff.
Sigh, as I thought, you're making argument #1, whichever way you try to slice it.
I'll just ignore the stuff that is semantics, opinion, straw-man, or nonsensical in your post.
Which is everything before:Not useful in combat? So?
You seem to have difficulty with reading comprehension. As indicated in my initial post, people were claiming that it gives an advantage in combat because they thought the speed took effect immediately, this is not the case.
So what if you have to swap weapons/change armor. You also have to dismount your horse.
[sarcasm] Yes, because changing equipment in combat is as easy and effortless as mounting a horse right? [/sarcasm]Generally I tend to believe that if it's broken when you make things from different sources stack, (which it is) that probably means you didn't implement it correctly in the first place, not that you should pick/choose what to stack.
Assuming I'm reading this right, this is the only part of your post that made any sort of sense based on the facts. And here, we're in agreement. Either passives and armor abilities should stack, or they shouldn't. Dev's shouldn't be selective about it.
All that said, you still haven't provided a justification for why moving faster in stealth than running shouldn't be allowed other than..... your opinion. I guess we can agree to disagree there.
Moving on...50 Bosmer Nightblade
50 Breton Sorcerer
50 Dunmer Dragonknight
50 Imperial Templar
50 Khajit Nightblade
50 Imperial Dragonknight
50 Altmer Sorcerer
50 Argonian Templar
Discussions of Interest:
Class Balance in 1.6
Quest Choices
Request to Reinstate Night's Silence and Dark Stalker stacking1 -
zso72✭✭The fact that you can even move faster in stealth than any character can sprint is just downright bad game design to begin with.
Stealth speed should be capped at the same velocity as regular sprinting.
You have seen lots of capped velocity sprinters? Is there even a sprint move speed cap? I would guess no, and no, respectively. There are easily enough ways to sprint at, or slightly below, the sneak movement pre1.4. It just takes a T3 racial ability and some deliberate item/bar setup. That stems from something that is even more exclusive than what you are assailing; by your logic....nerf those OP orcs, they shouldn't have a racial that can make them-gasp-faster than someone else, even if they sacrifice damage, regen, or some other stat.
Bottom Line:
-Sorc's BE can still be built around for faster-than-horse move speed (in combat no less).
-Enough forum complaining by 10 or so players can actually yield results.
-The Night's Silence+Vamp movement stacking was "balanced" by the devs a mere one patch after it actually began working....and here we are after 1, 2, 3 BE Nerfs(?) later and it's still combat-abusable. If you say otherwise, you are either ignorant or are attempting to cover your own use.2 -
phreatophile✭✭✭✭✭
✭Signed. Went out gathering to craft a new VR14 set for when I get there. God it was unbearable how slow I was moving.2 -
ZOS_LenaicR✭✭✭✭Greetings.
We are closing this thread per our rule regarding petitions:Petitions and Protests: We do not allow petitions or protests on our forums. Due to the fact that both promote the use of demands and replies that consist of “/signed” or little else, we feel that neither encourage nor allow for meaningful and constructive discussion. Instead of using a petition or protest, we recommend presenting your thoughts as a request or suggestion so everyone in the community can discuss it.1
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