The tanking issue: There aren't tanks. The tank role is non-existent.

  • Pmarsico9
    Pmarsico9
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    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    Cogo wrote: »
    1. ESO is ESO, not another MMO. Its a new "type" if you will.
    2. There is "tanking", but depends on your setup, encounter, teamwork and using different tactics on the same boss. Tanking is a new "version" in ESO
    3. You can not say "this is a tank build". Any class can tank. Depends who they play and what encounter they meet.
    4. The problem is not "tanking", or "healing", its the thinking that there are specific roles. Yes, in Dungeons, raids etc, you need a teammate who can aggro stuff and keep the hard hitting mob on you without dying.
    5. Moving, using different abilities, block, interupt, group abilities as buffs, damage shields, heals, or what not. Debuff targets if possible.
    6. ESO is outstanding in really making your "build" into a "class".
    7. Gear does matter, teamwork, figure out the encounter, try stuff, "think outside the box". Is the key. Not to tanking, but when you need a tank. Vet Grotto Undaunted achievement comes to mind.

    ESO is cutting a corner by not having to worry about threat values because, again, there are no threat values. Other games have threatless "tanking," none of them worked out that well.

    Again, keeping a taunt debuff and your shield up is not tanking. You are grossly overstating "tactics." There is little to this beyond having the right gear set on, the right group comp (some mix of DKs and Sorcs and maybe a Templar healer), and standing on top of each other.........People like to over complicate things when they don't have access or the wisdom to do raw calculations to produce indefeatable metrics outside of the scope of when the content was designed. New games almost always have this problem:

    Burning Crusade WoW had warlocks who pressed one button over and over and were unstoppable damage dealers.

    Rift had 1-3 button macros on warriors that did the same thing when it was first out.

    The thing is, however, these weren't as offensive as having one person be forced to play holding their right mouse button in, maintaining a debuff, and keeping a mob positioned into your raid to maximize damage.

    The rest of your post is written from your perspective about some Veteran Grotto achievement, which is too anecdotal to really comment on.

    I will admit, I'm rather new to MMOs but you seem to have one major problem... you're stuck on what "tanking" is in other games, not what it's used for. If tanking is just used to take damage from the hard hitting enemy in the room, distracting them from the other players so they can focus on DPS, then tanking is still available and useful. No, you don't have the same style to get that outcome, you have to keep a taunt debuff up instead of using your threat level to distract him. The fact of the matter is, tanking at it's basic definition is distracting enemies and taking damage for the rest of the team as to allow them to focus on other tasks, that is still happening you just have to go about it a different way. It seems to me that you people who are mad about tanking are just too stuck on the old way to try and learn something new. ESO is made to be different, to be a new style of MMO. If you want to play it, you have to be willing to adapt to the new game style. It is not the same as WoW or other MMOs, it is it's own game and should be played as itself. I understand why you're upset, but you have to be willing to learn new things in life or you won't get anywhere, just saying. Let it go, get used to the new way of tanking, and then move on with your life.

    -Thanks,
    diabeticDemon

    Reinventing the wheel works if you reinvent it.

    The playstyle lacking depth is secondary to the fact that the tanking role is entirely niche.
  • jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO
    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    Shouldn't heavy armor be viable for DPS too though?

    If it's not REQUIRED to tank in, starves resources, and is completely non-competitive with medium and light armors for dps, what's the point?

    The heavy armor destruction magic caster is certainly something that has existed throughout all of the ES games.

    I mean, I know I'm not the only one who used J'Zargo as their companion through skyrim multiple times (he was the only follower than leveled to max pre-Dawn Guard) and he was hell bent on being a sparks-spamming heavy armor caster!

    This is a bit of a digression, but is probably just as important of a point.

    Yes it most definitely should. Every bit as much as light is viable for tanks.

    It just needs to penalize your mitigation slightly for the damage boost to keep things equal. Have a passive that increases melee/spell crit and melee/spell damage (perhaps whichever is already higher? I don't know, something like that) but stops you from taking the resolve passive.

    Then just add some flat mitigation to resolve and make taking it prevent you from also taking the dps option.

    There are plenty of potential skill points and plenty of ways to do this. Would open the doors to far more Elder Scrollsy build options.
    I can has typing!
  • chipputer
    chipputer
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    In all honesty, I play a 5 heavy/2 light imperial sorcerer tank. I've basically devoted my entire sword and board bar to keeping myself alive and taking aggro, with my entire second bar to crowd control and party support (resto staff utilizing regen, combat prayer, encase, lightning splash, and a fifth skill rotated based on the need).

    I've tried everything. I mean that, too. Everything. Every weapon style, every class skill I have. The only way that I'm functioning as a proper tank is by soloing dolmens and that's basically me casting degeneration on every mob every 15 seconds or so, constantly keeping up my lightning form, and using Absorb Magic if I get low on health and there's a caster that happens to actually use projectiles in the mix.

    I'm basically a party support and that's it. I've decided that instead of referring to myself as a tank, I will take on the name "Imperial Sorcerer Party Suport."
  • chipputer
    chipputer
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    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    I shall take up the mantle of "Imperial Templar DPS Group DPS Reducer"

    That's how you do it!
  • JLB
    JLB
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    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    I shall take up the mantle of "Imperial Templar DPS Group DPS Reducer"

    LOL nice one.
  • NotSo
    NotSo
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    Tanks exist here because the healer needs a magicka break every now and then and he/she sure as hell isn't regenerating magicka while my spongy body is getting the beat down.

    Am I the only one here that hates the 'traditional' way of tanking?
    Gar'Sol the Wanderer VR14 Khajiit Sorcerer Spellblade
  • Sablemane
    Sablemane
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    I agree with the OP in that tanking needs to be exciting, using multiple skills and there needs to be a threat table. I would be happy with CC threat/taunt AOEs tied to sword/board and heavy armor lines too. Tanking in a robe should be only achievable for a short duration.
  • Averya_Teira
    Averya_Teira
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    I think the type of armor should play a role with aggro. I know it's not logical because if the AI was smart, it would ALWAYS focus the healer first lol, but that would be stupid gameplay. I also know you can run around just spamming inner beast or pierce armor, but that's not fun and not effective.

    There should be a threat table with Heavy > Leather = Light as base, and then Threat generating abilities (see below) > Healing > DPSing.

    I'd suggest adding a part to the Bracing passive adding 25-50% threat to all attacks for wearing a full heavy armor set along the reduced blocking cost.

    This situation might resolve itself when the soft caps are removed with the champion system as we might really see a huge damage reduction difference between heavy armor and the others, but I don't know for sure, still won't help with the (lack of...) threat problem.
  • Solanum
    Solanum
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    I regret that my tanking is vastly better if I equip cloth instead of plate.

    Would be nice if they could bring a full plate on par with cloth for tanking purposes. It is not like plate has any use elsewhere at the moment.
  • Reco
    Reco
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    A couple of points:

    0) I love the game.

    1) The design goals of the ESO designers regarding the tank role have been revealed in the tooltip in the group search tool. It says you "Absorb damage and prevent allies from being attacked". Even the fact alone that the user interface of ESO uses the very term "tank" indicates that they adopt the legacy of MMOs that existed before them.

    2) When I am the only member of the group who survives an AoE attack of a vet dungeon boss when we are all unexpectedly caught in one giant instant red area with a 50m radius, I know that the vet dungeons are designed in a way that strong tank builds are expected to come into play. The glass cannons were all wiped out, and the healer too. And only me, the tank, remained standing to revive them. As a tank, that definitely felt rewarding.

    3) When I, the tank, die at a vet dungeon boss, the whole group is usually wiped out within 10-20 seconds. Not always, but quite often. When a DPS dies, we keep going (I am holding the boss). That shows me that tanking is needed and that I do it well (I regularly receive positive comments about my tanking from random strangers, both dps and healers).

    4) AoE taunt OR other form of strong and realiable AoE agro would be great (especially for Templars, who miss DK's talons, which would allow them to hold large packs of melee mobs, who like bothering the healers especially).

    5) Remove taunt immunity. That only makes me constantly apologize to others for not being able to hold the boss. You make the tank appear irresponsible or incapable of fulfilling their role. Please remove taunt immunity from the game to prevent that, or at least reduce it by 90%. Thanks! :)
    Edited by Reco on November 11, 2014 8:33PM
  • Morvul
    Morvul
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    well, pre update 5 my guild would run most vet dungeons without a tank.
    post update 5, we very much prefere to have a tank around for our 4-man content.

  • Kypho
    Kypho
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    Want tanks? play WoT. There are lot tanks
  • TehMagnus
    TehMagnus
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    Fix tanking:
    As many have prolly suggested, implement a threat system with skills that increase your threat level.

    GG WP.
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