The tanking issue: There aren't tanks. The tank role is non-existent.

Pmarsico9
Pmarsico9
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Here's the tanking issue:

There's essentially no reason to have one 95% of the time, because THERE'S NO TANKS. There are people who use a sword and shield and provide maybe some CC or hold a bosses attention (while their taunt isn't being ignored) but there's generally no reason to have a tank. Their damage reduction and mitigation isn't high enough nor does this game have threat tables. Which is incredibly stupid

The AI scripting for multiple timed events on a boss, where they would drop aggro and run to beat on the healer, or conditionals that would make them drop their focus and hit somebody else aren't written into their programming. Because there's no aggro. They simply either have the taunt debuff or they don't and they either obey it or they don't. It is a very large reason why so much is overcome at endgame by pure DPS metrics and sorc/DK bathrobe/stick stacking. Which is likely yet another issue with ZOS trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Trash is too easily overcome by "blobbing," which essentially murders any need for a tank. As you can see in the video, major portions of the AA trial are being ignored due to how easy leashing is. Too much of the game is overcome by simply grouping as tightly as possible, spamming AoE heals, and spamming PBAoE's that tend to have the highest DPM and DPCT of anything in the game. And since threat's not even an issue, there's no reigning in DPS at all. It's simply SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM. It's really quite unfortunate.

I would even be so bold as to suggest that there may be times where you would want 2 or even 3 tanks in heavy armor with a one-hander and a shield in a game where it is so easy to spec out for essentially everything. Instead there's NOT A SINGLE ENCOUNTER that really requires heavy armor and spell resistance due to how quickly caps are broached.

To take this even further, the Elder Scrolls series is literally fresh off one of the best implementations of sword and shield dps in fantasy RPG gaming history.



And yet it's incredible innate CC was somehow revoked in ESO, on top of being (like all other stamina-based weapon abilities) seeming trash for actual damage.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly:

There's an incredible lack of what anybody would consider skill or strategy needed here. The events that occur in these trials are not significant enough to overcome the "power" of stacking as a group, spamming AoE heals and DPS, and simply metrically dominating the game. The worst thing is that this goes into PVP. It works in nearly every facet of the game. There's very few one-shot mechanics. There's maybe three encounters where this isn't the ideal.

Which ultimately makes for garbage content when you have nearly infinite possibilities in constructing groups and being creative with encounter design. God forbid you actually want bow-based Nightblades in PVE. God forbid a Templar's Nova debuff is actually desired on certain encounters.

It's kind of nuts.
Edited by Pmarsico9 on August 28, 2014 2:13PM
  • Pmarsico9
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    Athas24 wrote: »
    Can't agro them fast enough

    Let's just make sure we're on the same page, here:

    There's not aggro. There's Puncture and Inner Rage both of which apply a taunt debuff that can be up for 45 consecutive seconds on any target before the target ignores said debuff.

    There is not aggro. You do not aggro anything. You simply chain taunts or have the "skill" to keep untaunted duration of any target at its absolute lowest.

    There's no aggro table because there's no threat values.



  • Pmarsico9
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    Cody wrote: »
    what is this term you speak of... "tanks"? is this some kind of Daedric or Akaviri word?

    We folks here in tamriel don't worry about all that non-sense, as long as you have a stick and a dress/jerkin, all of your problems will be solved. No need to have someone that can take the hits from a boss, because bosses do (snip) damage. No need to have any tanks to take the 1-2 shotting abilities that could take out the healer/a DPS, because, again, bosses do s*** damage!

    no need to have a tnak clad in all heavy armor to charge enemy players in PvP and take all of their crap so other players can kill them. Everyone in tamriel can(somehow) block as well as someone with a shield(passives be damned, my 2H greatsword should not have its damaged reduced by about 90% from a staff) so tanking is not really needed in the first place. only with powerful PvE bosses will you need a shield, and even then, if you have high DPS and a healer, the tnak wont be needed. its... disappointing.

    I mean look at the videos I posted in the original post:

    How do we go from the awesomeness of Skyrim's one hander and shield to what they've done here? And I completely agree:

    It should absolutely have an offensive place in PVP as well!
  • timidobserver
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    It is always nice to have a good "tank" for the axes on The Mage, but they are virtually undeeded for anything else in the game.
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
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  • Pmarsico9
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    Oh and just an FYI, Robertlive, you try finding a slot in a competitive guild run with a Templar. I didn't zerg through leveling and when I finally hit 12, guess what?

    I can't get a slot due to the class I rolled, so please, assume more or tell me to re-roll.
  • Cody
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    This post is rubbish. Has this poster cleared both trials? Have they cleared hard mode? Are they even looking at the new content in Update 4 on the PTS? That's not their video. Sure, just watch a video and assume because a well practiced group made it look easy, it's therefore easy. Speed groups like the one that made the video linked in the post practice those runs a lot and are min-maxing the group composition only after having memorized the more challenging mechanics. Even with min-maxing there are mechanics that absolutely require a proper tank.

    How do you beat mage without a proper tank? If the tank dies and/or fails to keep the axes taunted and away from the other players groups will almost always wipe. While it's true that wisp can be tanked in light armor because of spell reflects, tanking the axes axes in light armor is a recipe for disaster. On wisp light armor tanking with spell reflects can add over 800 DPS, but there's no reason to take that risk on mage, since killing the axes does nothing.

    What's the strategy on ra kotu, first boss in hel ra, that doesn't require a tank? If a proper tank doesn't position and control this boss, it will run wild and kill every last player. Block cost reduction/mitigation in light armor is not enough, it's not, and why would you risk it, when the fight is relatively straight forward with a proper tank?

    I'm not sure what strat you would use on the left side split in Hel Ra, but only a proper tank can handle the dogs as they become enraged, and everyone who has tried knows that killing the dogs before the boss doesn't work. While it's true that the right side split doesn't require a tank, it's also true that these 12-man trials seem by design to require only a single tank, as evidence by the various DPS checks, that would make it much harder to succeed if more than one DPS was sacrificed for tanking.

    Block cost reduction/mitigation and taunts are what proper tanks bring to a boss fight. You cannot hardly tank even one hit of the warrior without a proper tanking spec, so I doubt anyone is tanking that in light armor. And hard mode warrior, forget about it, we're tanking him with 3300 health and over 3000 armor. So I fail to see any valid points in this post.
    we are not just talking about super hard trials that only l33t players with FOTM builds can do. we are talking about the entire game
  • lathbury
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    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    Oh and just an FYI, Robertlive, you try finding a slot in a competitive guild run with a Templar. I didn't zerg through leveling and when I finally hit 12, guess what?

    I can't get a slot due to the class I rolled, so please, assume more or tell me to re-roll.

    Weird cause we would be happy to take 8 Templars if they knew what they what they were doing. It would look like this 1 temp tank 2 temp healers 2 nb dd for execute/ vob 2 sorcs for negates 5 Templar dd's.
    As for tanks not being required lol reading some of the comments here.your tanking wrong and have obviously not completed trials or done crypt of hearts or probably a lot of vet dungeons while at level for it. Because I can list fights in each that require a tank. Even a lot of trash pulls have a big nasty in the tank should be handling.
    The irony of posting a video claiming it demonstrates the lack of need for a tank. When in said video he gives tanking instructions to the tank multiple times can't be understated.
    Edited by lathbury on August 29, 2014 6:13AM
  • Athas24
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    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    Athas24 wrote: »
    Can't agro them fast enough

    Let's just make sure we're on the same page, here:

    There is not aggro. You do not aggro anything. You simply chain taunts or have the "skill" to keep untaunted duration of any target at its absolute lowest.

    There's no aggro table because there's no threat values.

    Oh we're on the same page. I'm not being technical I suppose though. I am referring to being able to hold them to me in any way shape or form since I know the game has no real agro. table and the mobs just run willy nilly, which is really the point of my whole statement and this chain of discussion. It's super frustrating to play a tankish build type of character that can't hold any agro. like in pretty much every other mmo out there. The point I guess is my class just isn't needed or useful at all even though I can take plenty of damage. ;'(
    ...OverTwerked & Underpaid.
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  • Pmarsico9
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    Athas24 wrote: »
    Pmarsico9 wrote: »
    Athas24 wrote: »
    Can't agro them fast enough

    Let's just make sure we're on the same page, here:

    There is not aggro. You do not aggro anything. You simply chain taunts or have the "skill" to keep untaunted duration of any target at its absolute lowest.

    There's no aggro table because there's no threat values.

    Oh we're on the same page. I'm not being technical I suppose though. I am referring to being able to hold them to me in any way shape or form since I know the game has no real agro. table and the mobs just run willy nilly, which is really the point of my whole statement and this chain of discussion. It's super frustrating to play a tankish build type of character that can't hold any agro. like in pretty much every other mmo out there. The point I guess is my class just isn't needed or useful at all even though I can take plenty of damage. ;'(

    If they don't want to institute an aggro system, then they need to heavily buff the damage passives for heavy armor and increase the damage of sword and shield abilities HEAVILY, so that tanks aren't this giant pit of waste in this version of Tamriel where difficulty correlates to DPS output, class stacking, and standing on top of each other.
  • s7732425ub17_ESO
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    Tanks are vitally important in PVP.

    Good tanks (overpowered DKs) can take the aggro of 5+ players. The attackers use all of their resources leaving them vulnerable to others.
  • Cody
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    Tanks are vitally important in PVP.

    Good tanks (overpowered DKs) can take the aggro of 5+ players. The attackers use all of their resources leaving them vulnerable to others.

    not every tank is an OP DK that uses reflective scales and dragons blood constantly:/
  • Vaelen
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    Right now, Light Armor offers the most damage reduction and survivability if you use the vr12 PvP set Cyrodiils Light, the active 25% damage mitigation is like equal to an extra 2500 armor and 2500 spell resistance, so that means if you currently have 2k armor and spell resistance already soft capped with this full Light Armor set + sword and shield you basicly have equal to over 4500 Armor and 4500 Spell Resistance which is impossible to currently get with any Heavy Armor set.
    Edited by Vaelen on August 29, 2014 8:59PM
  • Vaelen
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    The problem is Light Armor > Heavy Armor for tanking, just look at the LA PvP set for vr12.
  • Pmarsico9
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    Vaelen wrote: »
    The problem is Light Armor > Heavy Armor for tanking, just look at the LA PvP set for vr12.

    It's not just that. It's the effective 50% DR cap.

    But being a flat out meat shield matters little when the tanking mechanism is essentially a debuff (Puncture or Inner Rage.)

    Tanking was essentially an afterthought during design. Without having any means of manipulating AI and mob placement, the entire system is borked.

    So you basically have a guy doing less DPS to keep up a debuff and soak some blows once in a while. Or acting as a CC totem.
  • ThyIronFist
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    Well said and great post, OP.

    This game has great potential, but PvE and PvP are dominated by, as we refer them to: wanking groups.

    Impulse, healing springs, barriers, all of that good stuff, and then just stack up and follow the crown.. and then: SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

    It is truly sad.
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  • Lizelle
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    I agree, there's too much focus on DPS and not enough mechanics in the game that require a tank.

    That said, I think the stacking thing is more a result of the fact you can't target to heal a specific person and of the massive amount of AoE damage in Trials. Because the healing skills are a frontal, circle on the ground, or smart heal.... (not to mention damage mitigation circles of effect) How do you heal and/or mitigate damage on the most people in that case? You have to STACK! It's boring but you'd have to put in targeted heals and damage mitigation to change that. The only other option is to not have so much unavoidable AoE damage in PVE end game content. So people can spread out and not just fall over. The Vet dungeons are mostly like this, it would be nice if that could translate to raid level encounters but with more focus on tanking as well.
  • Pmarsico9
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    Lizelle wrote: »
    I agree, there's too much focus on DPS and not enough mechanics in the game that require a tank.

    That said, I think the stacking thing is more a result of the fact you can't target to heal a specific person and of the massive amount of AoE damage in Trials. Because the healing skills are a frontal, circle on the ground, or smart heal.... (not to mention damage mitigation circles of effect) How do you heal and/or mitigate damage on the most people in that case? You have to STACK! It's boring but you'd have to put in targeted heals and damage mitigation to change that. The only other option is to not have so much unavoidable AoE damage in PVE end game content. So people can spread out and not just fall over. The Vet dungeons are mostly like this, it would be nice if that could translate to raid level encounters but with more focus on tanking as well.

    Healing in ESO is generally very powerful, there's no disputing that. However, at the same time, I don't think the stacking is solely due to how much more effective healing gets due to that.

    There's lots of things that come into play such as the AoE target caps and the fact that impulse is a Point blank AoE, combined with the lack of any true aggro table on mobs. Which also comes into play, heavily. If the targets are clumped and somebody (usually DK's) can help reposition things into the "blob," you are greatly increasing the damage pumped into that target.

    What's really crazy is that staves are supposed to be ranged.......and they are the ultimate melee weapon.
    Edited by Pmarsico9 on August 29, 2014 11:54PM
  • ManicDee
    ManicDee
    If you really believe there is no aggro, just try being a healer. Stuff is hitting someone else. It switches to the people doing the most DPS, then it switches to the healer.

    Getting aggro on a group is fairly easy if you have AoE such as, say, Solar Barrage or Sun Shield. The script is pretty much the same as warrior or paladin tanking: get into range of the mobs, use your AoE, start hitting them.

    There is tanking in ESO because someone needs to absorb a bit of the heavier damage while the rest of the raid is spamming AoE DPS and heals.

    If you truly believe there is no need for a tank, try running trials at level and with entry-gear (as opposed to gear that you get through the trials) without pets, bound armour, or anything else that boosts your armour or stamina above what your light armour provides you.

    Good luck, have fun!
  • Cogo
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    1. ESO is ESO, not another MMO. Its a new "type" if you will.
    2. There is "tanking", but depends on your setup, encounter, teamwork and using different tactics on the same boss. Tanking is a new "version" in ESO
    3. You can not say "this is a tank build". Any class can tank. Depends who they play and what encounter they meet.
    4. The problem is not "tanking", or "healing", its the thinking that there are specific roles. Yes, in Dungeons, raids etc, you need a teammate who can aggro stuff and keep the hard hitting mob on you without dying.
    5. Moving, using different abilities, block, interupt, group abilities as buffs, damage shields, heals, or what not. Debuff targets if possible.
    6. ESO is outstanding in really making your "build" into a "class".
    7. Gear does matter, teamwork, figure out the encounter, try stuff, "think outside the box". Is the key. Not to tanking, but when you need a tank. Vet Grotto Undaunted achievement comes to mind.
    Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
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  • Pmarsico9
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    ManicDee wrote: »
    If you really believe there is no aggro, just try being a healer. Stuff is hitting someone else. It switches to the people doing the most DPS, then it switches to the healer.

    Getting aggro on a group is fairly easy if you have AoE such as, say, Solar Barrage or Sun Shield. The script is pretty much the same as warrior or paladin tanking: get into range of the mobs, use your AoE, start hitting them.

    There is tanking in ESO because someone needs to absorb a bit of the heavier damage while the rest of the raid is spamming AoE DPS and heals.

    If you truly believe there is no need for a tank, try running trials at level and with entry-gear (as opposed to gear that you get through the trials) without pets, bound armour, or anything else that boosts your armour or stamina above what your light armour provides you.

    Good luck, have fun!

    No, there's not. There is just as much of a possibility that the AI is designed to attack the healer. There are no intrinsic values to an aggro table.

    If Solar Barrage or Sun Shield are holding hate, then that's news to me. Probably because they don't.

    I've tanked and healed tons of veteran dungeons. I tanked bleeding-edge content in Rift and WoW. There is no threat in this game.

    You sound like somebody who has run a lot of content without stacking on top of your entire group in a clump. So you would relate the occurrences happening in front of you to some logical pattern, but the truth is that they you are not playing the game properly.
  • Pmarsico9
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    Cogo wrote: »
    1. ESO is ESO, not another MMO. Its a new "type" if you will.
    2. There is "tanking", but depends on your setup, encounter, teamwork and using different tactics on the same boss. Tanking is a new "version" in ESO
    3. You can not say "this is a tank build". Any class can tank. Depends who they play and what encounter they meet.
    4. The problem is not "tanking", or "healing", its the thinking that there are specific roles. Yes, in Dungeons, raids etc, you need a teammate who can aggro stuff and keep the hard hitting mob on you without dying.
    5. Moving, using different abilities, block, interupt, group abilities as buffs, damage shields, heals, or what not. Debuff targets if possible.
    6. ESO is outstanding in really making your "build" into a "class".
    7. Gear does matter, teamwork, figure out the encounter, try stuff, "think outside the box". Is the key. Not to tanking, but when you need a tank. Vet Grotto Undaunted achievement comes to mind.

    ESO is cutting a corner by not having to worry about threat values because, again, there are no threat values. Other games have threatless "tanking," none of them worked out that well.

    Again, keeping a taunt debuff and your shield up is not tanking. You are grossly overstating "tactics." There is little to this beyond having the right gear set on, the right group comp (some mix of DKs and Sorcs and maybe a Templar healer), and standing on top of each other.........People like to over complicate things when they don't have access or the wisdom to do raw calculations to produce indefeatable metrics outside of the scope of when the content was designed. New games almost always have this problem:

    Burning Crusade WoW had warlocks who pressed one button over and over and were unstoppable damage dealers.

    Rift had 1-3 button macros on warriors that did the same thing when it was first out.

    The thing is, however, these weren't as offensive as having one person be forced to play holding their right mouse button in, maintaining a debuff, and keeping a mob positioned into your raid to maximize damage.

    The rest of your post is written from your perspective about some Veteran Grotto achievement, which is too anecdotal to really comment on.

    Edited by Pmarsico9 on August 30, 2014 4:05PM
  • Pmarsico9
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    Just to be clear, though:

    The lack of an actual aggro table goes far beyond the desire to simply make everything a tank and spank.

    It has to do with making rolling out of bad necessary.

    It has to do with NOT MAKING EVERYTHING based around DPS metrics.

    It has to do with putting the power in players' hands to truly manipulate positioning and incoming damage delivery on bosses and forcing people to be creative in your loadout (which should have to come into play in a game based around 5 buttons and an ultimate.)

    It has to do with making "ignore the red circle, pop some defensive CDs, and spam AoE healing," more than that.

    There is so much potential here. There really is, I wouldn't spend time harping on this if there wasn't.

    Off the top of my head there's so much wrong here that could be assets to a great game:

    What if you wanted to tank in light armor against casters because you could attain this amazing spell resistance cap?

    What if you could do incredible damage as a weapon-based class and some of the class passives helped to support those builds via buffs vs. how things are now?

    I mean this list could go on and on. But it's obvious that the true shortcomings are in the mathematical behind the scenes stuff that forms the universal rules that defines ESO's combat system. That needs some major rethinking.
    Edited by Pmarsico9 on August 30, 2014 4:05PM
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