The tanking issue: There aren't tanks. The tank role is non-existent.

Vizier

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Of course there are "tanks", they just happen to wear dresses and wield broomsticks, the ESO way. Why would you think that a tank really needs to be clad in ultra heavy armour, probably carry a shield, have tons of HPs, extreme physical toughness, and of course, be able to take severe punishment and hold the aggro against multiple opponents?

Welcome to "Elder Mages Online" (it is getting old, but still very valid). All you have to do is be one, "roles" and such trivialities are completely irrelevant.

Agreed-

Tanks exist. Problem is there is little downside if any to certain tank builds that also provide for top of the food chain dps as well...so that's what we see.

Should be some give and take but right now the current "balance" is a bit off IMO. Hopefully it will be fixed or altered at some point.

Vaelen

The fact is, fixing melee and stamina builds are way overdue. I don't think ZOS cares about balancing their game as much as coming out with higher vet ranks to continue the grindfest, like with the newest patch coming out soon.

Ragefist

There are plenty of tanks, its just difficult to recognize them since they tank with dress and stick as everyone else

cazlonb16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

1. ESO is ESO, not another MMO. Its a new "type" if you will.

Actually, it's pretty much the exact same issue Guild Wars 2 has, so not exactly new.

Both games did away with traditional tanking, which is fine imo. The meatshield would go against the idea of an action based combat system, having to actively avoid damage by moving out of telegraphed attacks, etc.

They failed to replace it with anything requiring even a touch of strategy though. Their endgame PvE is just a dps fest and that is severely disappointing.

Pmarsico9

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

1. ESO is ESO, not another MMO. Its a new "type" if you will.

Actually, it's pretty much the exact same issue Guild Wars 2 has, so not exactly new.

Both games did away with traditional tanking, which is fine imo. The meatshield would go against the idea of an action based combat system, having to actively avoid damage by moving out of telegraphed attacks, etc.

They failed to replace it with anything requiring even a touch of strategy though. Their endgame PvE is just a dps fest and that is severely disappointing.

Yes! Absolutely!

The big problem is that they aimed for something and it was completely unrealized due to the fact that there wasn't enough foresight put into it to avoid the issues that exist right now.

Liberal applications of the resto staff's ability to convert to multiple healers in an eye blink, the lack of anything that really one shots a clothy, incredibly low damage reduction caps, lack of the true existence of threat mechanics or any depth to tanking mechanics at all, and the pathetic state of sustained melee-based weapon dps (including sword and shield) have caused so much of this game to be facerolled by the almighty wizard.

Onward and upward Bright Wizards!!!!! You beat ESO at the character creation screen!

lathbury

Tanks job is to take the big hits that would mess up other ppl in the group. It is required it may not be gone about in the same way as other mmo's but it's there and is needed. In trials and dungeons especially if you want a decent time or the difficulty achieves.
Some fights it's less of an issue others it's absolutely crucial that some one takes those hits.
As for dps not getting one shot I've seen uncontrolled axes do that in aa and valerials heavy attack do it . In Hel ra armoured welwa will one shot dps unless the tank holds them. There are loads of examples of this in dungeons too.
I think you meant to say tanking in eso isn't the same as other mmo's.
I've heard in the next trial multiple tanks are required but not seen it myself yet. I want it to be a surprise.

Pmarsico9

lathbury wrote: »

Tanks job is to take the big hits that would mess up other ppl in the group. It is required it may not be gone about in the same way as other mmo's but it's there and is needed. In trials and dungeons especially if you want a decent time or the difficulty achieves.
Some fights it's less of an issue others it's absolutely crucial that some one takes those hits.
As for dps not getting one shot I've seen uncontrolled axes do that in aa and valerials heavy attack do it . In Hel ra armoured welwa will one shot dps unless the tank holds them. There are loads of examples of this in dungeons too.
I think you meant to say tanking in eso isn't the same as other mmo's.
I've heard in the next trial multiple tanks are required but not seen it myself yet. I want it to be a surprise.

No I meant that maintaining a taunt debuff and holding your shield up isn't tanking. I also mean that the role is entirely too specialized as there's even encounters in veteran dungeons where having a tank is a drawback (primarily ones like Bloodspawn in Vet Spindleclutch) where it's entirely a DPS race.

Furthermore, the Damage Reduction caps are so low, that clothies using Inner Rage can complete negate the need for a Heavy Armor wearing tank. Most people don't realize that Sorcs have the best tanking toolkit due to that.

squshy7

lol @ no aggro table.

There is certainly threat in this game. You, unfortunately, do not have an addon to show it to you.

Pmarsico9

squshy7 wrote: »

lol @ no aggro table.

There is certainly threat in this game. You, unfortunately, do not have an addon to show it to you.

No there's not. Because there's no modifiers on any s&b abilities and the S&B cannot do the damage that DK's, Sorcs, and especially healers can.

For threat to exist, there has to be means to manipulate it beyond a taunt debuff that hits DR's.

If the values do in fact exist, which is largely debatable based upon current AI behavior, then the lack of tools to manipulate it in a meaningful way completely negates it.

squshy7

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

squshy7 wrote: »

lol @ no aggro table.

There is certainly threat in this game. You, unfortunately, do not have an addon to show it to you.

No there's not. Because there's no modifiers on any s&b abilities and the S&B cannot do the damage that DK's, Sorcs, and especially healers can.

For threat to exist, there has to be means to manipulate it beyond a taunt debuff that hits DR's.

If the values do in fact exist, which is largely debatable based upon current AI behavior, then the lack of tools to manipulate it in a meaningful way completely negates it.

Hint 1: disorientation resets aggro table.
Hint 2: particular dots tend to be more effective than others
Hint 3: we have class skills, not just weapon skills

Pmarsico9

squshy7 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

squshy7 wrote: »

lol @ no aggro table.

There is certainly threat in this game. You, unfortunately, do not have an addon to show it to you.

No there's not. Because there's no modifiers on any s&b abilities and the S&B cannot do the damage that DK's, Sorcs, and especially healers can.

For threat to exist, there has to be means to manipulate it beyond a taunt debuff that hits DR's.

If the values do in fact exist, which is largely debatable based upon current AI behavior, then the lack of tools to manipulate it in a meaningful way completely negates it.

Hint 1: disorientation resets aggro table.
Hint 2: particular dots tend to be more effective than others
Hint 3: we have class skills, not just weapon skills

You have no idea what I'm talking about.

If a Sorc is doing 1000 DPS
A Healer is doing 2000 HPS
And a tank is doing 500 DPS.

Where will your target go if there's not a taunt debuff on it?

Now if you take those same metrics, but say that the tank's 500 DPS has a x5 threat modifier, assuming there are threat values, where does your NPC now go? Even without the taunt debuff on it?

Threat manipulation, even in places where threat capping isn't an issue, still is massively important to creating depth to the role. So is having higher damage reduction than other players.

Sitting there in a robe with a sword and shield with essentially the same damage reduction as a hulking plate wearing juggernaut but with nothing wasted on overcharged damage reduction is again, derogatory to the role existing.

lathbury

To the above I say tank Hel ra hard mode in a robe. Where is it written that you are not a tank unless in full plate anyway.
Just cause it can be done various ways does not mean it doesn't exist as the thread states. I would also ask why is keeping the boss from smashing your dps or healer to bits not tanking? Whether you do it by using a taunt or aggro modifiers it's still tanking.
I would agree there are certain specific fights that they are of less use ie the spindle one mentioned and some where you will not succeed with out them.
Also all of them in my guild are running heavy armour.

Head.hunter

In my experience we still need tanks, but a lot less than we used to. In some situations I can be a third wheel, and in others I save lives with taunt. They need to address the issue regardless.

Pmarsico9

lathbury wrote: »

To the above I say tank Hel ra hard mode in a robe. Where is it written that you are not a tank unless in full plate anyway.
Just cause it can be done various ways does not mean it doesn't exist as the thread states. I would also ask why is keeping the boss from smashing your dps or healer to bits not tanking? Whether you do it by using a taunt or aggro modifiers it's still tanking.
I would agree there are certain specific fights that they are of less use ie the spindle one mentioned and some where you will not succeed with out them.
Also all of them in my guild are running heavy armour.

Which you can argue that certain encounters shouldn't require a healer.

Or perhaps, certain encounters shouldn't require DPS, just a tank and everybody with resto staves.

It's hard to believe, but people do actually want to play tanks. Not minor distraction crowd control taunt totems

lathbury

Some encounters are easier the lower dps you do on the boss.

Pmarsico9

lathbury wrote: »

Some encounters are easier the lower dps you do on the boss.

Because such a sweeping generalization of idiocy is obviously something that is valuable to encounter design. Because there's no way to design encounters with boss health pools so high that you can't just zerg them and damaging mechanics that actually discourage being stacked in a zergball. There's no way to design trash that can't just be grouped up an AoE'd down.

Because despite designing an entire game from scratch, it's impossible for them to be creative in how they design the actual end-game content.

ArnoTerranova

So much good things and opinions in this thread.

I must agree with the initial idea of Pmarsico (nice post by the way) that "There is no real need of Tank as we know it : "shield+sword heavy armor".

I play a DK tank full pve (imperial race, for "best" bonuses), and I am here obliged to consider playing as a sorcerer tank, with a bathrobe and a broom. (and I should maybe reroll "Breton" race, for bonuses ??? ). if not full equipped with gold items, DKheavy armor builds and probably tanking efficiency are not even reaching the level of a "sorcerer tank" as shown in the video of Pmarsico!!!

A heavy armored tank, in dungeon? "claws" to keep the mobs, the dps aoe, I watch, and next pack. Whats my role here? For Bosses? well; keep a taunt every 15 sec (as discussed above) is not really tanking... And even when the tank die, usually the group do fine without him.

For reasons that have been discussed above, added with reasons discussed in other posts (for example, that stamina is used in several ways, but magika only for skills), obviously TESO must worked out the imbalance for tanks here, + aggro issues.

I played several mmorpg, and rpg, as a tank. WOW, for instance, was a pretty well done system, arguably too simplistic, but good.

I understand TESO try to do something here, giving opportunities for new skill lines and build. Following this idea, the answer of Cogo is right. yes TESO is trying to make people think about the situation, when a tank is needed, and when its not... but that is not really what people expect when they start a class... and I don't want my DK to have multiple armor sets, and skill lines, to cover all situations depending on my group...
This system is very demanding, and maybe too restrictive... (?)

I feel that this may kill the fun of game of a few (a lot?) players who are expecting - at least - to find the "classics" builds for the DK class (and others class). Honestly, don't you think it's weird to ask yourself "why my DK in heavy armor is so useless compared to a guy... in bathrobe?"

Pmarsico9

ArnoTerranova wrote: »

So much good things and opinions in this thread.

I must agree with the initial idea of Pmarsico (nice post by the way) that "There is no real need of Tank as we know it : "shield+sword heavy armor".

I play a DK tank full pve (imperial race, for "best" bonuses), and I am here obliged to consider playing as a sorcerer tank, with a bathrobe and a broom. (and I should maybe reroll "Breton" race, for bonuses ??? ). if not full equipped with gold items, DKheavy armor builds and probably tanking efficiency are not even reaching the level of a "sorcerer tank" as shown in the video of Pmarsico!!!

A heavy armored tank, in dungeon? "claws" to keep the mobs, the dps aoe, I watch, and next pack. Whats my role here? For Bosses? well; keep a taunt every 15 sec (as discussed above) is not really tanking... And even when the tank die, usually the group do fine without him.

For reasons that have been discussed above, added with reasons discussed in other posts (for example, that stamina is used in several ways, but magika only for skills), obviously TESO must worked out the imbalance for tanks here, + aggro issues.

I played several mmorpg, and rpg, as a tank. WOW, for instance, was a pretty well done system, arguably too simplistic, but good.

I understand TESO try to do something here, giving opportunities for new skill lines and build. Following this idea, the answer of Cogo is right. yes TESO is trying to make people think about the situation, when a tank is needed, and when its not... but that is not really what people expect when they start a class... and I don't want my DK to have multiple armor sets, and skill lines, to cover all situations depending on my group...
This system is very demanding, and maybe too restrictive... (?)

I feel that this may kill the fun of game of a few (a lot?) players who are expecting - at least - to find the "classics" builds for the DK class (and others class). Honestly, don't you think it's weird to ask yourself "why my DK in heavy armor is so useless compared to a guy... in bathrobe?"

I can't disagree. In regards to WoW, it wasn't always as simplistic as it is now.

There used to be such a depth to everything just when gearing as Threat Capping used to be a major issue for DPS, gearing and maintaining the ability to remain uncrushable, and of course proper execution of taunts and debuff drop swaps during the course of any encounter.

ESO has great potential to do that, because, as I said, some people only know about the current tank and spank version of WoW and don't understand that tanking can add major depth to a game like ESO where you will generally have a 3-5 button dps rotation and every single player is a potential healer..........

Athas24

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

ManicDee wrote: »

If you really believe there is no aggro, just try being a healer. Stuff is hitting someone else. It switches to the people doing the most DPS, then it switches to the healer.

Getting aggro on a group is fairly easy if you have AoE such as, say, Solar Barrage or Sun Shield. The script is pretty much the same as warrior or paladin tanking: get into range of the mobs, use your AoE, start hitting them.

There is tanking in ESO because someone needs to absorb a bit of the heavier damage while the rest of the raid is spamming AoE DPS and heals.

If you truly believe there is no need for a tank, try running trials at level and with entry-gear (as opposed to gear that you get through the trials) without pets, bound armour, or anything else that boosts your armour or stamina above what your light armour provides you.

Good luck, have fun!

No, there's not. There is just as much of a possibility that the AI is designed to attack the healer. There are no intrinsic values to an aggro table.

He's right. There is No Agro table which effectively means there is no Tanking to be done. Anyone can be attacked randomly at any time. Tanking is reduced to sicking them with taunt like a needle over and over whenever the jerk you're fighting randomly goes to someone else. It's stupid. It's even more insane to see 1 person attack 3 guys and have 2 of the 3 run 100 meters or so to attack a group member who is simply afk standing there..... it doesn't make logical or storyboard sense in any way.

Pmarsico9

Athas24 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

ManicDee wrote: »

If you really believe there is no aggro, just try being a healer. Stuff is hitting someone else. It switches to the people doing the most DPS, then it switches to the healer.

Getting aggro on a group is fairly easy if you have AoE such as, say, Solar Barrage or Sun Shield. The script is pretty much the same as warrior or paladin tanking: get into range of the mobs, use your AoE, start hitting them.

There is tanking in ESO because someone needs to absorb a bit of the heavier damage while the rest of the raid is spamming AoE DPS and heals.

If you truly believe there is no need for a tank, try running trials at level and with entry-gear (as opposed to gear that you get through the trials) without pets, bound armour, or anything else that boosts your armour or stamina above what your light armour provides you.

Good luck, have fun!

No, there's not. There is just as much of a possibility that the AI is designed to attack the healer. There are no intrinsic values to an aggro table.

He's right. There is No Agro table which effectively means there is no Tanking to be done. Anyone can be attacked randomly at any time. Tanking is reduced to sicking them with taunt like a needle over and over whenever the jerk you're fighting randomly goes to someone else. It's stupid. It's even more insane to see 1 person attack 3 guys and have 2 of the 3 run 100 meters or so to attack a group member who is simply afk standing there..... it doesn't make logical or storyboard sense in any way.

So true!

Thatusernameistaken

squshy7 wrote: »

lol @ no aggro table.

There is certainly threat in this game. You, unfortunately, do not have an addon to show it to you.

It appears you don't know what threat is.
Anyways.
Troubling info. I waited 6 months to bother with this MMO and waited till it was back on for $30. Probably shouldn't have bothered.
Ugh.

Khivas_Carrick

There is two types of "Threat" in these forms of games, and this one is lacking one which kinda sorta needs.

The first is the obvious one that comes from when you taunt a boss, which is ok and all, but kind of removes any element of skill or on the opposite end of the spectrum forces you to have too much skill required to be a tank.

This game teeters the edge of those two and forces a player to either have an amazingly easy time or an incredibly difficult time tanking, all thanks to the bosses not having a set aggro table. A taunt is not and never has been meant as the way to tank, only a tool used an in emergency or as a strategy to a fight (hence DPS classes that have taunts available to them), and for them to make sure the mob stayed on you was to have heavy threat modifiers present on your currently attached attack skills to build that form of threat.

This game does not have the above mentioned version of threat. In it's place instead is a weird system that tries to mimic a real world PvP situation but fails to do so, where mobs will randomly go off to kill a member a hundred yards away because they were afk, or a mob that had been attacking the tank the entire time to suddenly and without cause just stop and keel over another party member, despite nothing happening to the tank.

That is bad, really, really bad.

This makes tanking rather difficult in this game, necessary sure, but far harder than it needs to be. Tanks are not obsolete, this game's method of employing them is.

JLB

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Tanks are not obsolete, this game's method of employing them is.

Totally agree, tanks are needed, but why are they are lacking resources and abilities to tank?
Threat is certainly something I miss too from other games, but
if Taunt is going to be the way, why not make an AoE taunt tanks could use?
And some more tanking options?
AoE decrease damage debuff to be able to hold a few hard hitting mobs?
A way to increase your mitigations substantially while tanking?
How about damage transfers?
There are so many things that would make tanking exciting.

I'd like to see a tanking Guild implemented at some point, I think it's the best way to get all those little things ESO is missing about tanking. That or totally rework the sword and shield passives and skills.

I know the mechanics of ESO won't allow to do all the things tanks can do in other games, but still, they could make tanking experience much more fulfilling.

Marthenil

Have you people actually done any ophidian sanctum or hard modes or are you the usual kind that speaks out of its rear while having only completed dungeons (entry content) or the joke that is AA normal (also entry content) ?

Pmarsico9

Marthenil wrote: »

Have you people actually done any ophidian sanctum or hard modes or are you the usual kind that speaks out of its rear while having only completed dungeons (entry content) or the joke that is AA normal (also entry content) ?

Part of the point is that the role is so niche to those situations that it isn't effectively a role.

Rune_Relic

JLB wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Tanks are not obsolete, this game's method of employing them is.

Totally agree, tanks are needed, but why are they are lacking resources and abilities to tank?
Threat is certainly something I miss too from other games, but
if Taunt is going to be the way, why not make an AoE taunt tanks could use?
And some more tanking options?
AoE decrease damage debuff to be able to hold a few hard hitting mobs?
A way to increase your mitigations substantially while tanking?
How about damage transfers?
There are so many things that would make tanking exciting.

I'd like to see a tanking Guild implemented at some point, I think it's the best way to get all those little things ESO is missing about tanking. That or totally rework the sword and shield passives and skills.

I know the mechanics of ESO won't allow to do all the things tanks can do in other games, but still, they could make tanking experience much more fulfilling.

Considering the abundance of stuns and lack of taunts.
I can only assume to tank is to stun lock / knockdown everyone.
Certainly keeps them baddies off ya buddies for a second or two.
Must practice my pinball skills.

Pity the stuns can be defeated and aren't universal.

Khivas_Carrick

JLB wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Tanks are not obsolete, this game's method of employing them is.

Totally agree, tanks are needed, but why are they are lacking resources and abilities to tank?
Because wearing all heavy armor takes that away, hence you see many tanks these days wearing light armor.

Threat is certainly something I miss too from other games, but
if Taunt is going to be the way, why not make an AoE taunt tanks could use?
The Devs didn't think on that one is pretty much it. An AoE taunt would be freaking baller though.

And some more tanking options?
See above

AoE decrease damage debuff to be able to hold a few hard hitting mobs?
Technically that's how barriers and blessing of protection and Rune Focus works, it's just held back by armor and spell resist caps, as mentioned before.

A way to increase your mitigations substantially while tanking?
They do exist, this is why Medium and Light Armor, especially Light, is better for tanking in many situations than Heavy. Ransack, Immovable, etc

How about damage transfers?
.....Do we have those? Honest question. If not, we need these.

There are so many things that would make tanking exciting.

I'd like to see a tanking Guild implemented at some point, I think it's the best way to get all those little things ESO is missing about tanking. That or totally rework the sword and shield passives and skills.

I know the mechanics of ESO won't allow to do all the things tanks can do in other games, but still, they could make tanking experience much more fulfilling.

Although I put in a reply to each thing you said, I will and must say I agree with you that there is much left to put into this game to make Tanking fun and exciting.

Marthenil

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Marthenil wrote: »

Have you people actually done any ophidian sanctum or hard modes or are you the usual kind that speaks out of its rear while having only completed dungeons (entry content) or the joke that is AA normal (also entry content) ?

Part of the point is that the role is so niche to those situations that it isn't effectively a role.

Arena cannot be done without a tank.
Trials cannot be done without a tank.
Some dungeons cannot be done without a tank.

I really see no issue here.

On the matter of threat, next time one of you tanks AA last boss try this.
Only taunt the axes on the mage, without doing any damage to them. The moment your taunt runs out, they are going loose.

Now try it with you damaging them. They stick to you and you don't even have to taunt again for the whole duration of the fight.

Bar the initial taunt, I simply keep path of shadows up while spamming strife, and I don't have to taunt them ever again.
This is how I've been tanking them since they released AA.
I've tested it multiple times.

Khivas_Carrick

I gave the advice to someone earlier that AoE is a Tanks best friend in this game, for Templars I highly suggest the wondrous lord known as Blazing Spear mixed with Blazing Shield.

DK's have the obvious and endearing Talons

JLB

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Although I put in a reply to each thing you said, I will and must say I agree with you that there is much left to put into this game to make Tanking fun and exciting.

Regarding the mitigation thing, sorry I didn't specify better. I was referring to a flat % damage reduction while tanking (like Nord's racial) not spell resist/armour values.

I know what you mean by heavy armour taking all the possibilities away, but is still possible with a few new implementations. Let me elaborate better what I meant by a Tanking Guild (have in mind numbers are totally random, just for the example) so you have a better picture.

Tanking Guild skills

1. AoE taunt, 10m radius, 15s duration. Affected enemies deal 5% less damage.
2. Mark: marks 1 ally for 20s. Caster takes 50% of ally's damage.
3. Buff (resources): each blocked attacked restores 0.15% of magicka and stamina.
4. AoE CC: All enemies in the area are forced to go into caster's melee range. 4 second duration.
5. Leech (AoE): Deals X damage to each enemy and heals player for 100% of damage done for 4 seconds.

Ultimate:
increase dodge change by 70%
increase healing recieved by 20%
You are immune to enemy control effects.
10 second duration

Passives
(having 1 tanking skill slotted will decrease your damage output by 50%. Passives only apply when at least 1 tanking skill is slotted):
1. Reduce block cost by 10% and increase block mitigation by 10%
2. Reduce costs of tanking guild skills by 20%
3. Decrease damage of enemies's AoE by 20%.
4. Increase dodge chance by 20%. Dodging an attack will put a DOT on enemy.
5. Reduce incoming damage by 20%.

Something like this is what I miss about tanking in ESO, other than slot a taunt and a spell/armour buff and go.