The Zergball Counter

JackDaniell

So as build crafting is really my hobby, I thought I should take a stab at what can counter that zergball.

I was thinking, mobile single target damage?

I mean, the zergball really benefits from the AE cap, so it doesn't make sense to keep hitting the brick wall with our heads if it hasn't worked yet. But what if that tightly packed group of 20 had to fight a spread group of 20 people all using high single target burst builds? The focus on player based AOE would only hurt them in that fight as they could only kill a few targets at a time, also the zerg ball more often then not tends to "train" in one direction. So perhaps just rolling through the zerg will sort of de agro them from you.

So here are the hard facts I considered, Most zerg balls:

- Most players wear light armor
- They have one or more dedicated healers
- They usually shield stack with harness
- They have tons of player based AOE spells
- They have tons of zone control skills (negate, veil, talons)
- They have a team leader
- The good ones are filled with experienced players that don't die easily

Now how can this be countered by single target damage? Well to start the 20 man single target crew would need to have good players in it as well (I'm talking no PUG groups in this fight). A bow would be a weapon of choice, it provides good damage against cloth due to being a physical weapon, offers healing reduction, can do damage at a distance from the zerg, and most importantly offer good mobility. The single target group would also need to spread out and in a way "circle" around the zerg. This would help prevent the group being susceptible to all the AOE pressure the zerg can put down. The players would need to be very mobile, and have good knowledge of where to go when the zerg decides you are their target. Weaving with other players, direction changes and rolling into the zerg and out the back side would be effective measures. The group would need to pick its targets, mainly the support/healers of the zerg ball and try to snipe them out as best as they could. Good use of the surrounding terrain could spread the zerg ball apart. Finally, each player of the single target group would also need to be a survival artist (using what their class offers them) in order to prevent easy kills for the zerg.

One huge downside I could see to this is the zergball making good use of terrain as to not allow themselves to be surrounded, such as sitting in a broken wall. But that is where I believe the zergball should be most effective anyway

And the fun part is, they could run stamina builds and be very effective in PvP!!!
Just some food for thought, as I like to say: If rock isn't working, try scissors.

Pancake-Tragedy

My guild used this sort of strategy in GW2 to counter the "hammer trains" during GvG matches. We would fan out, pick off the squishy targets, then stack back up to rebuff/regroup/re-position. It worked well, but the difference between here and GW2 was that in GW2, we didn't have any dedicated healers. Also, the GvG "arena" was an open field with no where to line of sight and regroup.

Good post with great ideas for counters. I wonder if people will catch on and shift the "metagame" to more single target builds to counter these zergs.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

I've always wondered why there can't be a squad of DK's that use chains to yoink out meaty bits and have dps pounce on them. I haven't seen a proper zergball myself but I gather that trying to single target at a distance is futile with everyone spamming heals. I kind of wish heal-reduction effects were a bit stronger. I specced into lethal arrow and it bugs the hell out of me when I peg someone with 50% heal reduction and they cap back up to full in a second regardless.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

This what has been done in other MMOs, but there are 2 main issues with this.

One is the ability to mark enemy players is not present in ESO. You could potentially use night blades for this, but if you mark up more than 1-2 healers in a zerg at a time you start losing your ability to focus fire them easily because the marks all look the same.

The other is that targeting a specific player in a zerg can be default.. especially trying to do it quickly on the fly. You can call out names over VOIP, but it can be hard to get everyone on the same target as people are moving since you can't tab target cycle through enemy players either. The best you can hope for is that the player being focused is easy for your group to use tab as a soft lock on.

s7732425ub17_ESO

One issue is the ability of healers in this game to be able to AOE heal a large chunk of health. Even if you do manage to single target someone in the zerg ball, they just get healed back to full every 2 seconds.

dsalter

JackDaniell wrote: »

So as build crafting is really my hobby, I thought I should take a stab at what can counter that zergball.

I was thinking, mobile single target damage?

I mean, the zergball really benefits from the AE cap, so it doesn't make sense to keep hitting the brick wall with our heads if it hasn't worked yet. But what if that tightly packed group of 20 had to fight a spread group of 20 people all using high single target burst builds? The focus on player based AOE would only hurt them in that fight as they could only kill a few targets at a time, also the zerg ball more often then not tends to "train" in one direction. So perhaps just rolling through the zerg will sort of de agro them from you.

So here are the hard facts I considered, Most zerg balls:

- Most players wear light armor
- They have one or more dedicated healers
- They usually shield stack with harness
- They have tons of player based AOE spells
- They have tons of zone control skills (negate, veil, talons)
- They have a team leader
- The good ones are filled with experienced players that don't die easily

Now how can this be countered by single target damage? Well to start the 20 man single target crew would need to have good players in it as well (I'm talking no PUG groups in this fight). A bow would be a weapon of choice, it provides good damage against cloth due to being a physical weapon, offers healing reduction, can do damage at a distance from the zerg, and most importantly offer good mobility. The single target group would also need to spread out and in a way "circle" around the zerg. This would help prevent the group being susceptible to all the AOE pressure the zerg can put down. The players would need to be very mobile, and have good knowledge of where to go when the zerg decides you are their target. Weaving with other players, direction changes and rolling into the zerg and out the back side would be effective measures. The group would need to pick its targets, mainly the support/healers of the zerg ball and try to snipe them out as best as they could. Good use of the surrounding terrain could spread the zerg ball apart. Finally, each player of the single target group would also need to be a survival artist (using what their class offers them) in order to prevent easy kills for the zerg.

One huge downside I could see to this is the zergball making good use of terrain as to not allow themselves to be surrounded, such as sitting in a broken wall. But that is where I believe the zergball should be most effective anyway

And the fun part is, they could run stamina builds and be very effective in PvP!!!
Just some food for thought, as I like to say: If rock isn't working, try scissors.

very good points but your forgetting immovable. that alone can cap both armor and spell resistance as well as stop you from being able to CC them. destroying a large portion of physical and magical damage allowing the healers to keep the targets up.

only true way to counter a Zergball is AoE, which zeni protect by placing AoE caps... i blame the people abusing AoE pulsar spam to fast level during the first month. only pulsar, bats, talons and storm arch, rest i say is fair game since they have down sides to using them, arrow spray being a cone thats about 20yard range, whirling blade means your burning stamina so you'll have nothing left to roll with if you spam it, flawless same as arrow spray+ulti cost "cd", meteor can be dragged away from your team if you see it coming

Avidus

To be honest, the thing I find that makes Zergballs remotely effective is Forward Camps.

Most zerglings are not playing 100% of the ability in a zerg, because they do not have to.
Lets face it, how may times do you see people standing in the middle of a zergball, not actually doing anything, just wandering around.

Take away a forward camp, it stops their numbers replenishing before you can kill them.

At the moment a small group taking on a zerg faces the issue of how quickly they can kill people.
But if there is a FC right nearby. Well.. by the time the zerg starts to wipe, the dead ones are returning to fight again.

So a small group must completely wipe a zerg, and fast in order to defeat it.
There are countless strategies that will kill a zerg, but not stop it..

I believe in order to stop a zerg, you have to take out their FC's, stop them coming back.
So effectively, you need 2 small teams, one to headbutt with the zergball, and attempt to pick off any that wander too far.
The other to sneak around take out the FC and then come in from behind and pick off the squishies who stand back to avoid attention..

Columba

As a bow specialist NB with superior mobility and stealth, I love these ideas. I hate running in a zergball because it eliminates my advantages. The issue is that you need a few snipers to focus fire on one target at a time, using great communications.

Unfortunately, most Zerg leaders have only one way: ball up on the crown or get booted from group. I've grown very weary of that crap. I prefer stealth, snipe, poison, light and heavy attack weaving. Then stealthing. Most Zerg leaders won't tolerate that. Yet I need 5-7 like minded players for this to make an impact.

Teargrants

The idea of single targeting a stacked group in this game is laughable. If there's 20 of them and you're hitting one, he has 19 other people healing him on top of the barrier + harness magica + immovable. And since it is impossible to share target lock with your group, you will never burst through them as long as they stay in the blob and keep their rotation going. If there was uncapped aoe CC not negated by immovable, that threw people outwards (like volcanic ruin but horizontal) single targeting would maybe be viable.

Keron

The targetting issue can be resolved. Have one NB with reapers and one with piercing. The piercing guy sets first target. Reapers only sets if piercing is there.

Have half your strike force going for one, the other for the other. Sure, it's only two targets, but a strike team like this would anyways not be effective with more than maybe 15 players. And you wouldn't be able to kill more than two targets anyways what with the amount of healing in a zerg ball.

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

How about just spreading using aoe, mage skill that shootsthem up in the air, arrow spray, aoe arrows..fear traps..

TheBull

I've thought around the same lines arrow barrage ect. In theory it seems effective.

The problem comes inside of keeps. Where there is no space to "get out the way" or not stand in the AoE.

Teargrants

@‌Keron
The thing isn't about not being able to see who's the target. The problem is not even being able to physically lock onto them, as opposed to some random guy that bulges in front when they're hiding in the blob. This is what prevents coordinated single target spiking.

timidobserver

I wouldn't mind joining a guild that focused on testing out this sort of thing. Sadly most seem to be all about the zergs or impulse trains.

Xsorus

As someone who's primarily single target....This doesn't work that well, You can rez incredibly fast in this game, and as long as Forward Camps exist and no rez sickness like DAOC and AOE caps, you'll continue to have the terrible gameplay that rewards very very bad players for sticking to one another.

Cody

these zergs would not be a problem if AOEs could wipe them. In order to make this possible, AOE caps have to go; but then, we would have 1 emperor killing 30+ people singlehandedly.....(seeing as how 90% of them spam either impulse or batswarm) and not to mention batswarm spammers.....

so, the only way we could fix this problem, while removing AOE caps, and without making an AOE able to kill over 15 players, is to .... yes. you guessed it. Nerf AOEs all together. yes, that dreaded "N" word we all hate with a passion.
OR, do what many other people have suggested, add some splash damage abilities.

I myself don't really care what is done to fix it, I just want this problem fixed. The only campaign right now that I find fun is the Non-vet only one, in that campaign, you cant make impulse blobs, because most players don't even have impulse. its SO much more fun fighting people that do more than blob together and spam impulse.

Ezareth

A well coordinated application of meat, a couple AOE ults and a banner will wipe most zergballs damn near instantly. My team does it all the time, all it takes is coordination and some meat.

Insurrektion

Scales.

Draxys

Insurrektion wrote: »

Scales.

like, shark scales?

BEZDNA

Theorycrafting is so theoretical! No way it's gona work in carennt ESO PvP.

Taonnor

You need 4 DK and spam fragmented shiled and GG. Every zergball will explode from his own dmg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRjfluIqXMo

Mendoze

How about a 6+ ( high health ) templars with immovable, harness magicka and blazing shields. They might actually have a chance if blazing shields expire nicely at the same time. That might put out so big burst damage that it could actually kill some opponents. With harness magicka, templars probably never go OOM.

While 7/7 Light armor can use immovable I find all single target skills quite futile against experienced and disciplined AOE trains.

JackDaniell

So I have been working on a templarcher build as of late, I am finding it SUPER survivable but am still tweaking it to do the damage I want it to. As a Templar blazing shield is a great back off skill, so it helps allot with zerg play. Mix that with some high ranged physical DPS and it does wonders against the most common cloth builds (heavy armor is about the only thing it doesn't melt). Now remember I am still tweaking it, but if I can get the gear I need ill be able to get venom arrows base damage up to about 350 non crit (alongside another 350 auto attack damage) plus the DOT at about 400 damage over 10 seconds. I also still need 50 in bow (40 atm) so I can be more mobile with the role passive.

This build is the kind of thing that I think would be interesting and possibly effective against the zerg balls IF I was not alone My theory is that 3 or 4 people could work to pick out a single target and pelt them down really quickly (healing reduction from poison + disease enchants) without any use of stealth or shadow play, just good mobility and survivability mixed with coordination. Also adding a blind to this build (blinding flashes) would also benefit zerg play allot.

Here is a quick video of it in some solo action:
http://youtu.be/QokUMLRbtkg