1.4.0 Bow Changes, You're doin it wrong, ZoS.

Thejollygreenone

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Weapons
Bow
Acid Spray (Arrow Spray morph): This ability no longer uses Spell Critical Strike.
Arrow Spray: Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 10%.
Scorched Earth (Volley morph): Fixed an issue with this ability where the red telegraph ring was bigger than the size of the effect.
Snipe: Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 20%. We also reduced the cast time for this ability to 1.8 seconds from 2 seconds.
Volley: Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 30%, and removed the minimum range on this ability.

I appreciate the thought, but does anyone else thing they seem to be going about this the wrong way?

Here are my thoughts:

Acid spray no longer using spell crit. Cool, this was a bug that needed fixing. The ability still does pretty pitiful base damage though so as much as I like the aesthetics of the ability, I still won't be using it.

Arrow spray reduced cost by approximately 10%? So it'll go from 440 stamina to 400 stamina? I mean, I can't complain about buffs, but the problem with this ability is it does so little damage for its cost. With bombard and the immobilize, a higher cost makes sense.
But on an ability like acid spray where it only exists for the damage, the damage just ISN'T worth the stamina cost, even if reduced by 10%. Give acid spray enough DoT damage to make it worth the 400+ stamina then you'll be doing something productive.

Scorched Earth bug, never heard of this, didn't use the ability or morphs anyway due to clunky nature and high cost. Mainly how clunky the ability is though. But bug fixes are always good, certainly

Volley's getting its cost reduced by 30% and its minimum range taken away. This is actually a change in the right direction, maybe it wont be so clunky to use now, and may actually be a decent aoe option.

And finally, Snipe. While this is the ability I'd like to see improved rather than any other bow ability, I think this change is going to do nothing but *** a lot of pvpers off.
First off, the cost of the ability wasn't a huge issue to begin with, when the ability took 3-2 seconds to cast, you have plenty of time to regen stamina making it very stamina efficient anyway. So while I can't complain about buffs to a weapon I use, I think there may have been better ways to do it.

And lastly, .2 seconds isn't going to spontaneously make this an ability that is worth it to use in anything other than the opener. This is a game ruled by instacast abilities, let's be honest, and we already know that some cast time abilities actually have a longer animation than is stated.
(The animation global cooldown on uppercut was reduced recently to 1.5 seconds, while the cast time is 1 second. The animation used to take even longer :-/ )

So with that in mind, how do we know that snipe isn't affected by a similar mechanic? In which case, I'd suggest bringing the 2 second cast time back but give us an animation global cooldown that is exactly 2 seconds.

While I can't complain about buffs rather than nerfs, I gotta wonder if these changes are going to do more harm to the pvp community than good to the bow users all around. Anyone care to present an opposite opinion? I'd love to be proven wrong

guybrushtb16_ESO

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

While I can't complain about buffs rather than nerfs, I gotta wonder if these changes are going to do more harm to the pvp community than good to the bow users all around. Anyone care to present an opposite opinion? I'd love to be proven wrong

This is about right. Like it or not, Impulse/Elemental Ring is the benchmark for aoe abilities, and even so the bow cannot even begin to touch it's superiority.

About the snipe change I'm skeptical as well; we haven't ever really used it in fight, and a slight reduction in cast time probably won't be enough to change that. Being a channeled skill, it has a lot of opportunity cost due to not allowing light attack weaves as much - along with all the inherent problems a long channel brings with it already.

A property it shares with the badly underpowered flurry from the dw skill, so my personal interpretation is that the customary light attack weaving caught the ability designers completely unawares, and they still haven't really taken it into account in their balancing.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO

The one thing that absolutely kills the usefulness of Snipe in a dps rotation outside of the opener is the global cooldown after the cast time completes, requiring 3 sec between initial cast and using another attack. Considering you can cast light attack + poison arrow almost 3 times in that time frame, Snipe becomes a DPS loss.

Crystal Blast and Solar Flare both have a 1.3 sec cast time and no cooldown after casting. They also do more damage, given equal stats. Crystal Blast has a knockdown, Solar Flare has a debuff, Snipe has range and can sneak attack.

Suggestion:
Keep cast time at 2 sec.
Remove it's global cooldown.
Increase damage 10%.
Reduce sneak attack damage bonus from Snipe 10%.

Thejollygreenone

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

The one thing that absolutely kills the usefulness of Snipe in a dps rotation outside of the opener is the global cooldown after the cast time completes, requiring 3 sec between initial cast and using another attack. Considering you can cast light attack + poison arrow almost 3 times in that time frame, Snipe becomes a DPS loss.

Crystal Blast and Solar Flare both have a 1.3 sec cast time and no cooldown after casting. They also do more damage, given equal stats. Crystal Blast has a knockdown, Solar Flare has a debuff, Snipe has range and can sneak attack.

Suggestion:
Keep cast time at 2 sec.
Remove it's global cooldown.
Increase damage 10%.
Reduce sneak attack damage bonus from Snipe 10%.

Some sound thinking there, I think I'd be perfectly happy with the condition of snipe if the changes you suggested were made. I've hoped for similar changes for awhile.

I've also wanted it to have higher damage if its cast time was so high, looking at the abilities you brought up in comparison as well, but never thought of a way to compensate for how it would adversely affect the sneak game in PvP.

If it is indeed as simple as adding in some coding to reduce sneak attack damage bonus for snipe by 10% after having increased the base damage by a similar 10%. I think this would adequately compensate.

The damage may still be a bit higher from stealth as it is now, I'm no math guy so that's just a hunch, but I think the value given would work fine regardless.

Dubah

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

The one thing that absolutely kills the usefulness of Snipe in a dps rotation outside of the opener is the global cooldown after the cast time completes, requiring 3 sec between initial cast and using another attack. Considering you can cast light attack + poison arrow almost 3 times in that time frame, Snipe becomes a DPS loss.

Crystal Blast and Solar Flare both have a 1.3 sec cast time and no cooldown after casting. They also do more damage, given equal stats. Crystal Blast has a knockdown, Solar Flare has a debuff, Snipe has range and can sneak attack.

Suggestion:
Keep cast time at 2 sec.
Remove it's global cooldown.
Increase damage 10%.
Reduce sneak attack damage bonus from Snipe 10%.

Sounds interesting i like it. Even tho I only have an alt who uses dw/bow build and haven't really invested in snipe ive heard nothing but bad about it even as an opener. I was not aware it had a 3.0s global cooldown which kinda sucks and now makes sense as to why it isn't used. I like the suggested ideas better than what they actually did and it doesn't seem to be overpowering at all... Way to be conservative and hopefully these changes could be made. Maybe @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ can make this happen

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO

Upon further testing on the PTS, it seems there is no longer a global cooldown on Snipe. Has it been like this or I am trippin?

Dubah

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »

Upon further testing on the PTS, it seems there is no longer a global cooldown on Snipe. Has it been like this or I am trippin?

No idea, i got a stamina build in my group that uses bow ill ask him when he logs in and i will come back and let you know then

Kypho

Vampires and DKs hurt pvp not bow. Well, vamps not so much because now 95% ppl are lolvamps.... guess why....
I dont use bow but i got hit by snipe yes. it hurts, yes, but it far from OP. Fragment followed by fragment proc easily hit you for 1100+1100 dmg in a sec so wth are you complain about? A DK can spam and hit for 700+ dmg while blocking, healing and lulztanking+ they have lolmagma what hits you hard, templars blazing op shield, and you complain about snipe? gosh........

Ghenra

They are crazy and stupids, each patch they are boosting the *** AoE's and the *** ranged damage, I play a melee DK with Heavy Armor and is the most stupid thing that you can do, all the classes win me, Templar for bitting jabs + uberOP sun shield, Soccerer for the *** AoE and bat swarm, NB sniper shot and piercing arrow and Magicka DK's for AoE spam and healing, nice balance ZOS, definetly your staff is worst ever.

Mumyo

Ghenra wrote: »

They are crazy and stupids, each patch they are boosting the *** AoE's and the *** ranged damage, I play a melee DK with Heavy Armor and is the most stupid thing that you can do, all the classes win me, Templar for bitting jabs + uberOP sun shield, Soccerer for the *** AoE and bat swarm, NB sniper shot and piercing arrow and Magicka DK's for AoE spam and healing, nice balance ZOS, definetly your staff is worst ever.

Dragonknight talking about others beeing OP xD
I'd love to trade all my ults for ur green dragonblood i would also trade sun shield for it + my ults.

I btw also play 7/7 heavy armor +2hander and i love the playstyle(little advice go full impenetrable and enjoy ur 1k dmg charges und 1k+wrecking blows in groupfights! It is awesome.(reducing the swingtime of wrecking blow wouldn't be a bad change). Dragonknight is made for it.

timidobserver

Due to bow I use a shield now. I pretty much just block any time that I an standing idle or not stealthed in order to avoid being oneshot by a NB lethal arrow combo

eliisra

They should buff 2-Hander and heavy if anything.

Instead they feel the need to buff Snipe, current fotm skill in Cyrodiil. With the 1.3.3 patch it officially reached the same level of lameness as Impulse/Batswarm/Soul Assault in PvP. Like it didn't kill enough people in 1 second already. Now it needs a buff apparently. Sometimes ZoS makes me very confused.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO

Since when does a 1.8sec sneak attack lethal arrow do a single point more damage than a 2.0sec sneak attack lethal arrow?

This is a PvE buff to Snipe. No one uses Snipe after opening sneak attack in PvP anyways. Rotation is usually Snipe + light attack/poison arrow spam. Besides, Snipe has very low dps outside of a sneak attack. Crystal Blast and Dark Flare to more damage with a 1.3 sec cast time.

I agree on buffing 2-handers. They already mentioned at the Quakecon ESO Panel they plan on buffing 2-hander abilities, so that shouldn't be too far off.

Thejollygreenone

eliisra wrote: »

They should buff 2-Hander and heavy if anything.

Instead they feel the need to buff Snipe, current fotm skill in Cyrodiil. With the 1.3.3 patch it officially reached the same level of lameness as Impulse/Batswarm/Soul Assault in PvP. Like it didn't kill enough people in 1 second already. Now it needs a buff apparently. Sometimes ZoS makes me very confused.

They're basing the decision off of PvE clearly, where bow is pretty garbage. I'm not debating that 2h is better off, just that it's not all hunky dory for bow builds in PvP as you imply and that they don't need any changes. If you think 2h should have priority, that's another subject for another conversation.

I agree, 2h is in a pretty pitiful state, but if it's a one at a time thing, I could care less of the order if they're both in a poor state and both will be improved upon. Unfortunately, due to the way ZoS only communicates changes as they're coming out on the PTS, we can't have assurance that the changes to 2h that are needed will ever come.

Regardless, and back on subject, I'd like to argue that bow has not at all reached the same level of lameness as impulse/batswarm/soul assault in PvP. Firstly, I'd hardly call soul assault lame, it's not very hard to counter, and there are plenty of other strong ults out there to choose from, standard and veil of blades stick out in my mind to name a few.

But the main thing I'd like to ask you to bring up an accurate comparison when going so far as to suggest that bow builds have reached the same level of badassery as typical magicka builds get with their zergsmashing 'impulse/batswarming' ways. If you're going to claim bow is so strong, bring up a relevant comparison in how it is so strong.

Since lately bow has really been used for sniping from stealth or from forts, I would suggest starting with that. Not abilities like impulse or batswarm, which I feel couldn't have less to do with the playstyle bow enables.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

people open up with snipe all the time. Thats where the 1.4k + lethal/focus shots come from.

Cogo

I use snipe in pvp. The few seconds I am alive :-p

A serious question. Does anyone know if the mage guild skill, mage light, gives crit to ALL bows attacks? Even snipe?

Some people say it does, some it doesn't. Anyone know? It says spell crit on the skill, but several people told me it applies to Bows all attacks, including just shooting an arrow?

Thejollygreenone

Cogo wrote: »

I use snipe in pvp. The few seconds I am alive :-p

A serious question. Does anyone know if the mage guild skill, mage light, gives crit to ALL bows attacks? Even snipe?

Some people say it does, some it doesn't. Anyone know? It says spell crit on the skill, but several people told me it applies to Bows all attacks, including just shooting an arrow?

Literally never heard of this effect, I'll have to go test it out when I get some free time. Interesting thought, certainly.

killedbyping

Still no fix to how weapon skills damage scales... Still no buffs to base damage of Weapon skills...
Forget it, i stick to magicka builds.

Cogo

killedbyping wrote: »

Still no fix to how weapon skills damage scales... Still no buffs to base damage of Weapon skills...
Forget it, i stick to magicka builds.

Um, you SURE you tested the weapon scaling? Vet 10-12 is still screwy, but at Vet 5 it works. Scale damage works really well and depends what you use at what target/mob. Also enchants and players buffs really works.

Sure, stick to magika. Ill be there breaking free from your CC over and over with my heavy armor ;-)

killedbyping

Cogo wrote: »

killedbyping wrote: »

Still no fix to how weapon skills damage scales... Still no buffs to base damage of Weapon skills...
Forget it, i stick to magicka builds.

Um, you SURE you tested the weapon scaling? Vet 10-12 is still screwy, but at Vet 5 it works. Scale damage works really well and depends what you use at what target/mob. Also enchants and players buffs really works.

Sure, stick to magika. Ill be there breaking free from your CC over and over with my heavy armor ;-)

Did not understood what you tryed to say.

My point was that all the weapon skills gain veeeeeeery low benefit from weapon damage, while spells gain crazy alot of damage boost from every point of spell damage.
Also all of the weapon skills have very low base damage. Some of them have their damage lower then your weapon damage and light attacks which is complete bullsh*t.

You can see the difference at level 25 already, no need to suffer all the way up to VR5 or VR12.

P.S. Why you think spell casters cant wear Heavy Armor aswell ? -.-

Kypho

Ghenra wrote: »

They are crazy and stupids, each patch they are boosting the *** AoE's and the *** ranged damage, I play a melee DK with Heavy Armor and is the most stupid thing that you can do, all the classes win me, Templar for bitting jabs + uberOP sun shield, Soccerer for the *** AoE and bat swarm, NB sniper shot and piercing arrow and Magicka DK's for AoE spam and healing, nice balance ZOS, definetly your staff is worst ever.

You play DK and you complain? WTH YOU big guy, YOU do something wrong.... LMAO complaining DK....

Kewljag_66_ESO

eliisra wrote: »

They should buff 2-Hander and heavy if anything.

Instead they feel the need to buff Snipe, current fotm skill in Cyrodiil. With the 1.3.3 patch it officially reached the same level of lameness as Impulse/Batswarm/Soul Assault in PvP. Like it didn't kill enough people in 1 second already. Now it needs a buff apparently. Sometimes ZoS makes me very confused.

Only if you wear all light armor with no +armor jewelry will you get hit very hard by the sneak attack snipe. If you don't want to get hit that hard then maybe you should put on some armor and take the dress off...... if i target a heavy armor user with snipe he generally takes half the damage compared to light armor users

Varicite

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

They should buff 2-Hander and heavy if anything.

Instead they feel the need to buff Snipe, current fotm skill in Cyrodiil. With the 1.3.3 patch it officially reached the same level of lameness as Impulse/Batswarm/Soul Assault in PvP. Like it didn't kill enough people in 1 second already. Now it needs a buff apparently. Sometimes ZoS makes me very confused.

Only if you wear all light armor with no +armor jewelry will you get hit very hard by the sneak attack snipe. If you don't want to get hit that hard then maybe you should put on some armor and take the dress off...... if i target a heavy armor user with snipe he generally takes half the damage compared to light armor users

Or, y'know, get yourself a set of Impenetrable gear and hold block while idling around.

Jaxom

If I snipe you from stealth, 9 times out of 10, you will die. You can have 3 friends with you, but before I die from them, you will be dead too. It's extremely powerful. My snipe hits for 1500+ on average from stealth and even cracked a few 2k hits last night (I'm guessing they didnt have inpen on).

Also, before my snipe actually hits you, I will have marked you and hit you with a venom arrow and a light attack as well. This is all from someone who does not macro in any way shape or form.

Reducing the cast time won't really change anything nor will the 20% cost reduction. More times than not, if you are singled out, you will be dead before my stamina bar hits 75%. I think the uproar on Snipe isn't as bad as you think. For how it's used primarily, this won't change anything.

The cost reduction will just let me cast multiple snipes in a row while defending from a keep tower but if I hit you 3 times in a row with a snipe, you should probably pay more attention (you would be surprised how often I can do this in large battles)

Tamanous

Jaxom wrote: »

If I snipe you from stealth, 9 times out of 10, you will die. You can have 3 friends with you, but before I die from them, you will be dead too. It's extremely powerful. My snipe hits for 1500+ on average from stealth and even cracked a few 2k hits last night (I'm guessing they didnt have inpen on).

Also, before my snipe actually hits you, I will have marked you and hit you with a venom arrow and a light attack as well. This is all from someone who does not macro in any way shape or form.

Reducing the cast time won't really change anything nor will the 20% cost reduction. More times than not, if you are singled out, you will be dead before my stamina bar hits 75%. I think the uproar on Snipe isn't as bad as you think. For how it's used primarily, this won't change anything.

The cost reduction will just let me cast multiple snipes in a row while defending from a keep tower but if I hit you 3 times in a row with a snipe, you should probably pay more attention (you would be surprised how often I can do this in large battles)

All of what you said simply points out that these changes are pve driven. That is where changes are most needed.

zbtiqua

Snipe is terrible in PVE and will continue to be terrible in PVE with a 1.8 second cast time. Snipe would have to be closer to a 1-1.2 second cast time at it's current damage, with no minimum range, to even have a prayer of being PVE viable.

Kego

Jaxom wrote: »

If I snipe you from stealth, 9 times out of 10, you will die. You can have 3 friends with you, but before I die from them, you will be dead too. It's extremely powerful. My snipe hits for 1500+ on average from stealth and even cracked a few 2k hits last night (I'm guessing they didnt have inpen on).

So Snipe gets any better with high VR?
I am only low VR but I put Snipe away in PvE cause it does not more DMG than a Heavy Attack + Venom Arrow combo out of hidden.
Snipe hits for ~1.000 DMG and Heavy Attack for ~750 DMG followed by instant ~200DMG Venom Arrow. There for I see Lethal Arrow as only useful Morph for Snipe, cause the Heal Debuff can give you the time to kill your Opponent in PvP, after the first Snipe hit. And ofc. the higher range in sieges.

LtCrunch

Kego wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

If I snipe you from stealth, 9 times out of 10, you will die. You can have 3 friends with you, but before I die from them, you will be dead too. It's extremely powerful. My snipe hits for 1500+ on average from stealth and even cracked a few 2k hits last night (I'm guessing they didnt have inpen on).

So Snipe gets any better with high VR?
I am only low VR but I put Snipe away in PvE cause it does not more DMG than a Heavy Attack + Venom Arrow combo out of hidden.
Snipe hits for ~1.000 DMG and Heavy Attack for ~750 DMG followed by instant ~200DMG Venom Arrow. There for I see Lethal Arrow as only useful Morph for Snipe, cause the Heal Debuff can give you the time to kill your Opponent in PvP, after the first Snipe hit. And ofc. the higher range in sieges.

As a VR12 NB built for lots of crit chance/damage and soft capped weapon damage Snipe hits for 1.4-1.5k damage from stealth; with Mark target along with a bit of armor reduction and penetration stacking it will hit for 1.7-2.1k. I usually open with snipe followed by light attack and venom arrow weaved together. That's much bigger and more effective burst that heavy + venom arrow.

Kypho

LOL with all that shield stacking, noone should cry about bow. only decent weapon against shieldstackers. Be a sorc or a templar, all shields light armor, class shield, and a DK should not even dare to speak with its natural godmode.

Kypho

Jaxom wrote: »

If I snipe you from stealth, 9 times out of 10, you will die. You can have 3 friends with you, but before I die from them, you will be dead too. It's extremely powerful. My snipe hits for 1500+ on average from stealth and even cracked a few 2k hits last night (I'm guessing they didnt have inpen on).

Also, before my snipe actually hits you, I will have marked you and hit you with a venom arrow and a light attack as well. This is all from someone who does not macro in any way shape or form.

Reducing the cast time won't really change anything nor will the 20% cost reduction. More times than not, if you are singled out, you will be dead before my stamina bar hits 75%. I think the uproar on Snipe isn't as bad as you think. For how it's used primarily, this won't change anything.

The cost reduction will just let me cast multiple snipes in a row while defending from a keep tower but if I hit you 3 times in a row with a snipe, you should probably pay more attention (you would be surprised how often I can do this in large battles)

I guess you shoot noobs with it. As i said most ppl will just LOL at you because they use lot shields, and they can just replace it. Then they spot you and you are dead. OFC you can kill afkers, need much skill....

Kypho

eliisra wrote: »

They should buff 2-Hander and heavy if anything.

Instead they feel the need to buff Snipe, current fotm skill in Cyrodiil. With the 1.3.3 patch it officially reached the same level of lameness as Impulse/Batswarm/Soul Assault in PvP. Like it didn't kill enough people in 1 second already. Now it needs a buff apparently. Sometimes ZoS makes me very confused.

Heavy is fine. 2h and DW need attention more.
And seems ZoS likes the BS craps, and *** on ballancing the game. All what you mentioned was always a problem and seem it will be. And those are not all what is BS