PTS Patch notes: Done with Templars?

Pmarsico9

Really?
Templars remain the only class in this game that has one slot reserved for it and no more while the other 3 can contribute to truly competitive Trials runs as DPS.

Considering the PVE End game is going to continue to be DPS zerg fests in these trials, it should not be swept under the rug that Templar DPS still needs something.

We cannot top 1,000 DPS single target.

We cannot match the AoE pumped out by other classes.

We are forced to re-roll if we want to join a guild that is doing competitive trials runs. Who else has that?

Something, anything: Buff Dark Flare Damage. Buff Vampire's Bane's DoT, buff Blazing Spear damage...............because who else has to deal with this?

david.haypreub18_ESO

For those about to flame the OP, let me (another Templar) first say: I think Templars are pretty good in PvP. I don't like having exploits like the Blazing Shield stacking, so hopefully that will be fixed soon, but even without it we are probably doing OK in PvP. I don't think that is what this post is about.

Where Templars are obviously lacking is in high-end PvE, especially Trials. It really is not debatable that Templars are not wanted in many of these groups. The problem is we just can't sustaint the single-target DPS that other classes can. If you've played a Templar, you will know what I mean.

ZOS has admitted this problem with the Templars; Gina said they heard loud and clear that the dominant problem with the class was the lack of mana regeneration, which was nerfed in beta.

Unfortunately, it is now almost two months later, and we haven't heard anything new about this issue. I really hope that ZOS does not consider the problem fixed... because it's about as fixed as heavy armor is right now.

Aeratus

Just get into PVP. Some of the Templars I've seen are nearly unkillable with their insane heal spam.

SVKFrankenstein

I really hope this topic is not going to be drowned in "Templars are strong" argument from PvP perspective .
Yes Templars are great PvP and i know it , i am playing one .

BUT - like its said we are lacking in high end PvE .
We are lacking in DPS department . Templars sustainable single target DPS cannot compare to those of other 3 classes . Templars other than healers are not even considered in competetive trial groups .

I was happy after first boost and promise of anothers comming but it was a while already and there is only silence . Did Zenimax forgot about Templars problems ? Or are they just ignoring us and think we are going away ? Well maybe we will , but for now i really hope they dont ...

jrgray93

Aeratus wrote: »

Just get into PVP. Some of the Templars I've seen are nearly unkillable with their insane heal spam.

Heal spamming templars are just a matter of wearing down. It's Blazing Shield spammers you should be worried about. I think Templars will be in a good place for PVP once that ability is in check. PVE is the problem. I've even removed Blazing Shield from my PVP bar because I like to fight fair. It's abbreviated "BS" for a reason.

Pmarsico9

I cannot dispute that Templars are the game's best healers, are arguably the best pure damage-soaking tanks that exist, are incredible soloing machines, and extremely strong in PVP.

But that's not the point of this:

Aeratus wrote: »

Just get into PVP. Some of the Templars I've seen are nearly unkillable with their insane heal spam.

Other classes have representation in PVP. Templars have no representation in End-game PVE aside from a token healer slot.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122169/the-major-issue-with-viable-templar-dps-at-end-game#latest

I spent a lot of time on that. I also threw out a coupla band-aids in this post here.

Arabth

Aeratus wrote: »

Just get into PVP. Some of the Templars I've seen are nearly unkillable with their insane heal spam.

Yea pvp templar is strong that is not the problem the problem is pve

NerfEverything

The problem for Templars is PvE endgame, which ZOS keeps adding to the game. Unfortunately the mechanics for these boil down to DPS checks, which Templars are severely lacking in single target DPS.

Templars need magika management tools to be viable in endgame PvE. ZOS refuses to give these to Templars and the result is Templars getting excluded almost completely from endgame PvE content.

jrgray93

That lack of magicka management is also why heal spamming templars in PVP can be killed. Spamming Blazing Shield works as both an offensive and defensive spell at the same time. Just spamming heals burns resources and deals no return damage. Templar spells are generally pretty expensive, as well. So unless you're working with an unsustainable offense, you can burn them down.

SirAndy

Aeratus wrote: »

Just get into PVP. Some of the Templars I've seen are nearly unkillable with their insane heal spam.

Exactly. He's only excluded from the PvE endgame, so what's the big deal?

Pmarsico9

The key lies in allowing for Templars to gain Magicka regen when all 5 slots on their bar are tied up with damage abilities. It should be a passive.

I don't understand the hesistancy to allow for something like this. It's not as if every other class can't toss on their Resto staff and help heal (which they do now....watch some 11 minute trial videos. Combat Prayer is up 100% of the time on the entire raid.)

They also need more damage somewhere. And it can't be puncturing strikes. It has to be in Dawn's Wrath. There's no reason that 3 of this game's 4 classes should be capable dpsers and Temps are some weird utility hodgepodged mishmash.

Eclipse, Blazing Shield, and Blinding Flashes all hurt dps capabilities. Something like Draconic Power has so much of that in a single tree, which is what Aedric Spear should be with a real Crowd Control beyond what it has now.

Dawn's Wrath needs actual sustained single target DPS in it. Dark Flare, Vampire's Bane, and Backlash all need something to help with sustained single target DPS. It could be as simple as Vampire's Bane DoT getting buffed. But there's no actual flow to a DPS rotaton for this class. There's also too much hard casting compared to others. Which could be a niche, provided you didn't have some crappy cap on something like Backlash.

jrgray93

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

*snip*

Very well put reasons for why Templars feel awkward in PVE. So many utilities and hard casts with little internal class synergy or useful passives.

cazlonb16_ESO

jrgray93 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Just get into PVP. Some of the Templars I've seen are nearly unkillable with their insane heal spam.

Heal spamming templars are just a matter of wearing down. It's Blazing Shield spammers you should be worried about. I think Templars will be in a good place for PVP once that ability is in check. PVE is the problem. I've even removed Blazing Shield from my PVP bar because I like to fight fair. It's abbreviated "BS" for a reason.

Blazing Shield is primarily a defensive tool and not an overpowered one at that, some other classes have comparable stuff. The large stored damage is not something you can use on demand, it happens once in a blue moon.

Personally I do not use Javelin though, because the knock down mechanics are extremely lame. Can't break out of it and thanks to sync issues it lasts about twice as long as it should.

NerfEverything

Yeah Javelin is much more "BS" than blazing shield. Blazing shield isn't on people's bars because it sucks, not because it is unfair.

jrgray93

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Sallington

If you play Templar as a support class it doesn't seem so gimped.

Nox_Aeterna

It is trully amazing that they come foward and admit the problem is the templar lack of magicka management and still do nothing to fix it.

This class will never be able to compete until they do this, but considering how much they suck at balancing , it might still take them a long time.

NerfEverything

jrgray93 wrote: »

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Great, another person who has watched two youtube videos and read a couple of MonkeyMystic's posts and is now an expert on Templar.

If you have ever actually played PvP Templar, you would know that stacking blazing shield is nearly impossible in a non-controlled environment. It is not effective as on offensive spell, and it is worse than other classes damage shield. So yes, it sucks. But go ahead and continue getting all your information from videos and moronic forum posts. I'm sure everyone will have a good laugh at your expense the next time you share some of your "knowledge".

jrgray93

NerfEverything wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Great, another person who has watched two youtube videos and read a couple of MonkeyMystic's posts and is now an expert on Templar.

If you have ever actually played PvP Templar, you would know that stacking blazing shield is nearly impossible in a non-controlled environment. It is not effective as on offensive spell, and it is worse than other classes damage shield. So yes, it sucks. But go ahead and continue getting all your information from videos and moronic forum posts. I'm sure everyone will have a good laugh at your expense the next time you share some of your "knowledge".

Or, you know, I could get the information from my actual PVP-focused Templar main. I'm not an expert on the stacking mechanics but it very clearly is a very powerful ability.

Sallington

NerfEverything wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Great, another person who has watched two youtube videos and read a couple of MonkeyMystic's posts and is now an expert on Templar.

If you have ever actually played PvP Templar, you would know that stacking blazing shield is nearly impossible in a non-controlled environment. It is not effective as on offensive spell, and it is worse than other classes damage shield. So yes, it sucks. But go ahead and continue getting all your information from videos and moronic forum posts. I'm sure everyone will have a good laugh at your expense the next time you share some of your "knowledge".

Seriously though, blazing shield is a good spell.

technohic

jrgray93 wrote: »

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, if you hit blazing shield a second, third, fourth time or however many before the last one expired, the damage it has built up carries over and keeps stacking.

People may not like it and find it cheese, but if you're complaining about not being able to have an effective Templar, that option is available for you. Might throw in some bat swarm as well. Its what I have, so just being honest.

jrgray93

technohic wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, if you hit blazing shield a second, third, fourth time or however many before the last one expired, the damage it has built up carries over and keeps stacking.

People may not like it and find it cheese, but if you're complaining about not being able to have an effective Templar, that option is available for you. Might throw in some bat swarm as well. Its what I have, so just being honest.

I'm quite effective in PVP. I have a previous build in my sig, but I use something much different now. Constantly changing it to spice things up. But I recently removed Blazing Shield and I refuse to play vampire.

BugCollector

Templars should gain:

1. Damage buff to Sun Fire and make the projectile faster
2. Instant cast chance for Dark Flare like Crystal Fragments (sorc) has

Nuff said.

Skafsgaard

technohic wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Blazing shield sucks? I guess that's why the biggest FotM builds are running it and spamming it as their primary offensive spell. That also explains the countless threads complaining about it. It is critting for absurd values and a good geared Templar gets ~1k damage mitigation from it. I have heard that the damage output is due to some stacking bug or something, but I can't be sure because I don't use it.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, if you hit blazing shield a second, third, fourth time or however many before the last one expired, the damage it has built up carries over and keeps stacking.

It is not true. I have a templar main, and while I enjoy getting magicka back with the shield (never used it before 1.3 really) and gives me a reason to pvp now it the stacking of it is not as you explained. Ive tried many many times and I cannot make it crit more than 1k, which is nice if ppl are stupid to stand in ur face whacking at you (im looking at you ganking NBs )

But stop spreading misinfo like.

Pmarsico9

Sallington wrote: »

If you play Templar as a support class it doesn't seem so gimped.

Sure, but Trials are time based DPS races. So there's no slot for support. There's no reason for the support in PVP, either. Not when you can heal like a MoFo and be nigh unkillable. Not when Talons, even buggy and stupid Talons, is more utility than Blinding Flashes or Eclipse (Eclipse is extremely limited and usually Absorb Magic is a better choice, FYI, due to costing stamina and having a generally higher uptime of usefulness.)

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

It is trully amazing that they come foward and admit the problem is the templar lack of magicka management and still do nothing to fix it.

This class will never be able to compete until they do this, but considering how much they suck at balancing , it might still take them a long time.

Look, for what it's worth, I will acknowledge that they are still learning how to balance a MMO. And for what it's worth, I would wager to say that the combination of Breath of Life and Mending are more of an issue to balance so slowly than anything. If they were to flatly adjust Templar Magicka regeneration, the tears on here would be so much worse........Imagine Templars with one button slot dedicated to Breath of Life running around with beyond-overcharged magicka Impulse Blobbing and tossing out heals for over 1800 like it was nothing.......I mean it's obvious why they are so conservative.

My issue is more with the fact that there still remains an issue and aside from the single tweak, every patch should still have incremental 10% buffs to things like Vamp's Bane's DoT or Dark Flare damage. It's not incremental when there's nothing, even when the issue still blatantly exists.

Just to be clear: The Blazing Shield rants have no place here. It is a soloing and tanking PVE tool. In PVP, the stacking is an obvious bug that will eventually get fixed. But I'd argue that Pulsar is more of an issue than absolutely anything else in PVP right now. The organized PVP issues in ESO are outweighed so badly by Pulsar that I'm not commenting on Templars in PVP.

This thread is ENTIRELY about the inability for Templars to DPS competitively in this game's end-game PVE. It is not about PVP AT ALL. Every other post is some "sour grapes" bs about how OP'd Blazing Shield stacking is in PVP. That's not what this is about. It's about the lack of viability at carrying more than one Healing Templar in End Game Trials. No other class deals with such an exclusive situation AT ALL.

BugCollector wrote: »

Templars should gain:

1. Damage buff to Sun Fire and make the projectile faster
2. Instant cast chance for Dark Flare like Crystal Fragments (sorc) has

Nuff said.

A proc would be cool. Perhaps the buff should be on the Templar and should be 10% flat damage on next ability rather than a non-scaling debuff on the target to make something hit nominally harder. The instant cast proc should be off Sun Fire's DoT ticks or Weapon damage. Solar Barrage should be looked at, too. It's currently garbage compared to the almighty Pulsar.

Backlash's cap also needs to scale better.

Power of the Light should increase a target's damage received off the next 2 weapon attacks (no timer).

Purifying Light should be redone into a pure DPS morph that removes the damage cap, increases the duration to 8 seconds, lowers the bonus damage to 20% and delivers the damage as a DoT over 8 seconds.

Ideally, the goal will be to make a usable PVE DPS single target rotation that can be done from range that would go something like Backlash > Dark Flare > Vamp's Bane for Bosses, with the instant cast procs from Dark Flare providing some level of risk/reward vs. keeping up Vamp's Bane's DoT.

SVKFrankenstein

Just posted new topic about suggestions to Templar Dawns wrath tree with consideration of PvP aspects of game . Maybe you find it interesting .

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/127829/templar-end-game-pve-dps-suggestions-dawns-wrath#latest

Pmarsico9

SVKFrankenstein wrote: »

Just posted new topic about suggestions to Templar Dawns wrath tree with consideration of PvP aspects of game . Maybe you find it interesting .

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/127829/templar-end-game-pve-dps-suggestions-dawns-wrath#latest


Backlash need to be stackable with another players . I agree with only one backslash at time on target by one player though .

You have some decent ideas. I think the last line though, something I completely neglected is a severe argument to have a morph be a simple nuke or DoT. I totally forgot that only one backlash can go on a target at a time!

So I take:

Purifying Light should be redone into a pure DPS morph that removes the damage cap, increases the duration to 8 seconds, lowers the bonus damage to 20% and delivers the damage as a DoT over 8 seconds.

Rescind it.

And reissue it as this:

Purifying Light becomes a pure DoT that can only be on one target at a time and deals 150% of its total damage when cleansed. It cannot crit.

It can proc instant cast Dark Flares. Dark Flare's damage increases by 5/10% for each DoT ability on the target.

Dark Flare's current spell damage/weapon damage debuff is changed to a flat 10% buff on the templar.

Now you have some synergy here. You can even bring more than one Templar.

In fact, this sounds like fun.

SVKFrankenstein

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

You have some decent ideas. I think the last line though, something I completely neglected is a severe argument to have a morph be a simple nuke or DoT. I totally forgot that only one backlash can go on a target at a time!

So I take:

Purifying Light should be redone into a pure DPS morph that removes the damage cap, increases the duration to 8 seconds, lowers the bonus damage to 20% and delivers the damage as a DoT over 8 seconds.

Rescind it.

And reissue it as this:

Purifying Light becomes a pure DoT that can only be on one target at a time and deals 150% of its total damage when cleansed. It cannot crit.

It can proc instant cast Dark Flares. Dark Flare's damage increases by 5/10% for each DoT ability on the target.

Dark Flare's current spell damage/weapon damage debuff is changed to a flat 10% buff on the templar.

Now you have some synergy here. You can even bring more than one Templar.

In fact, this sounds like fun.

Yeah , interesting and good concept . I deffinitely see where are you comming from . Thing is thou that my suggestions are simple for one reason and that is because i really dont expect Zenimax to rework our class or spell to that extent any time soon . So i am trying to suggest boosts that can be made this or maybe next patch .
If it was up to me i would love to see some great synergies and unique skills . Even have many suggestions myself but i really dont see Zenimax implement them with all problems and future content they have . So right now i am trying to unfortunately suggest only simple changes .

Pmarsico9

Just to reiterate:

New Baseline talent added to Prism: Gain additional Ultimate when activating a Sun Ability, additionally, your Magicka Regeneration is increased by 15/30% when your ability bar has 5 Templar Damage abilities on it.

Sun Fire and Morphs: 10% flat buff on DoT effect damage.

Solar Flare and Morphs: Healing debuff removed, no longer applies non-scaling spell damage/weapon damage debuff on target. Applies flat 10% damage buff on Templar's next ability. Solar Barrage morph applies 10% damage taken debuff to all affected targets and gives up 10% buff on Templar. Dark Flare Morph gains chance to be instant cast off Templar DoT damage (Blazing Spear, Burning Light, Vamp's Bane, Backlash replacement DoT)

Backlash: Renamed Power of the Light. Baseline ability applies 12 second DoT that scales very well off spell damage. Morph 1 becomes Backlash which functions just like Live's current Power of the Light minus the cast time. Caveat being that only one Backlash can exist on any target at any time. Morph 2 becomes Dark Purification which will cause a silence and instantly deal 150% of DoT's total damage if dispelled/cleansed to victim. Dark Purification DoT ticks also increases the proc rate of Dark Flare instant casts. Dark Purification can only exist on one target at a time.

This accomplishes two things:

A) Makes Templars a viable DPSer for top-tier competitive trial runs.

Provides a fluid and engaging Templar DPS rotation vs. what currently exists.

Pmarsico9

SVKFrankenstein wrote: »

Yeah , interesting and good concept . I deffinitely see where are you comming from . Thing is thou that my suggestions are simple for one reason and that is because i really dont expect Zenimax to rework our class or spell to that extent any time soon . So i am trying to suggest boosts that can be made this or maybe next patch .
If it was up to me i would love to see some great synergies and unique skills . Even have many suggestions myself but i really dont see Zenimax implement them with all problems and future content they have . So right now i am trying to unfortunately suggest only simple changes .

I think the issue is that if they try to do something "simple," Temps would be glaringly overpowered. They are the only class in the game that can heal with any weapon equipped.

The simple ability to have things like Reverberating Bash on a Bar with Breath of Life allows for crazy fight resets that nobody else has access to within CC.

So Temps are held back by having to essentially stack Magicka regen while everybody else is stacking spell damage or crazy set bonuses that have nothing to do with Magicka Regeneration.

So the way to address this is to put something in that drastically levels the playing field. BoL is very expensive. Many Templar heals are. So if Templars have to swap bars to heal, then the mission is accomplished. The mixed loadouts should be fine for soloing. But for end-game PVE, Templar's would be forced into the same Combat Prayer mess that everybody else is.

timidobserver

I really tired of PVPers bogging down every PVE Templar complaint thread lol. You can't mention Templar in a thread without the blazing shield protest guy's bogging it down.