Phantax wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

And how have Zen 'gone quiet'? That implies they have recently been discussing small guild issues with us and now they are no longer doing so. Can you post me the links of the discussion?

I at no point suggested Zenimax have commented on this topic anywhere. Your assumption that I implied it is your own !

A grammatical error then, not an assumption.

To say something has 'gone' quiet means it was not previously quiet. What I think you mean to convey is that they have 'remained silent' on the issue?

I agree with the OP. I miss my guild of 5 good friends in WoW.

People objecting haven't given any good reasons, it's just "you don't have it, so you shouldn't have it". If Zen doesn't want people using small guilds for tons of free storage, link the amount of storage to the size of the guild or something, but at least let them have tabards, ffs. What harm does that do?

Phantax wrote: »

At the end of the day Zenimax promised people 100% access to all game features ...snip... They have gone back on those promises by putting restrictions on what people can do, and that is irrefutable !

Of course it is refutable. I see this "access to all features" bandied about in the forums a lot with no source, but I am sure that whatever source people can find does not include a statement that players would have to do nothing in-game in return for 100% of the content.

Is there any content in the game that no one in the game, not a single person, has had access to due to Zenimax putting restrictions on players? No. All content in the game, so far, is available to any player who wants to do what it takes to get to that content.

Just because someone does not want to do certain things in the game, and are thus unable to access certain features, does not mean that Zenimax is withholding that content from them.

Rosveen wrote: »

After a hundred threads about this matter, I still don't understand why a guild of 5 people needs a store.

My counter to that is whether there is actually any reason why the guild store should be denied to guilds with 5 people in them? Does it actually hurt to give a small guild a guild store, other than the other guilds?

I have seen comments that a small guild could not compete in the bidding wars, but we don't actually know that as a blanket rule. It has occurred to me that larger guilds might not want smaller guilds competing for guild traders. Obviously, there is that whole guild vs guild dynamic. That, above all others, seems to be the reason to deny guild stores for small guilds.

I say give them a guild store at 10 and see what happens. It might be an interesting experiment. The only reason I say 10 is because it is obvious that Zenimax wants a player count requirement for some guild functions and it is similar to how games like World of Warcraft treat guilds (they require 5 to create the guild).

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And I have to, once again, ask why a group of 2, 3, 4, or 5 people need a 500-slot bank. Or why you can't use one of your other 4 guild slots for a larger guild if what you want is access to the large-guild features.

Once again up against the Nerevarine.

I can counter that by asking why a 10 person guild needs a 500-slot bank, the same 500-slot bank that a guild with 500 people gets?

The guild bank is one place that Zenimax did not do the initial implementation right. I have to think that somewhere on a whiteboard is the design for the guild bank that they want to do, and eventually they will get around to it.

Why is the initial bank 500 slots? The starting guild bank size should be 100, not 500, and additional bank space should either be purchased (as per other MMOs) or based on guild size with a set number of slots added after a specific guild size is reached, peaking at 400 guild members or so.

Ways to add security and organization could be by bank tabs, but I am of the mind that rather than a tab adding X slots, they should be organizable so that Tab A can be defined as X slots out of the total pool, Tab B can be defined as Y slots out of what is left after X is removed, etc. In this way, tabs can be changed in size as needed.

Probitas wrote: »

QFT, that's it? Where is your argumentative support, or refute of the other side? You can't just point to some guy, say 'what he said' and act like the statement is true. That's crazy.

You want me to repeat the post I quoted for you? That post was quoted for truth (that's what QFT means) now you might not like the post I quoted because it clearly and logically supports an argument against what you want. Don't attack me though...

If you want a 5 man guild go make it, join a larger guild and a few trading guilds for the rest of the stuff. Best of both worlds...and why this system is great.

So you wont get 500 slots of personal storage, and an AH to store items (since a 5 man guild would never have the need for an AH, too few people for it to work)

IMO this is all just a thinly veiled whine thread for someone who wants to game the storage system of the game and get his 5 man buddy group all the benefits of a large guild that actually needs an AH and all that storage.

Ok...let the mini clubs get their talbard...whatever...


The second they open this stuff up to mini guilds is the second me and many other people start making mini guilds just for personal storage. Ill store 30 items on the AH priced at 1g for 30 days (per character?) and have a nice 500 slot bank.

Iorail wrote: »

Cyberdown wrote: »

The second they open this stuff up to mini guilds is the second me and many other people start making mini guilds just for personal storage. Ill store 30 items on the AH priced at 1g for 30 days (per character?) and have a nice 500 slot bank.

And don't forget, you can also bid on a trader and take that precious spot with 0 items on your store!

This quote and my comment are just 3 of the many reason why bank/store/etc have requirements and should not be giving or open to less than 10 man guilds, never the less 1 man guilds....

Agreed.

I'm amazed at the lack of understanding on this thread.

No one is stopping you from forming a "guild" of 4 people. Go right ahead. Do it.

But if you want a bank, you'll need at least 10 people. You aren't being denied access to content any more than you're being denied access to content when the game makes you group up to complete a trial.

It's not a bad idea jonpaul. Lineage had guild quests for advancements and I would take that any day over pre-requisites being unlocked by numbers or gold sinks. Though of course numbers would and should be important for some unlock quests.

I think the 5 guild membership might make something similar here just feel too "Oh gods, again??" tiresome though. (EDIT:) Unless Zen were really awesome and gave you a choice of quests dependent on the type of guild you were forming - PvP, Trade, Social etc.

Of all the issues will ESO, we're worries about guild sizes; I just wish they fix the "Snipe" ability and I'd be happy.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I'm amazed at the lack of understanding on this thread.

No one is stopping you from forming a "guild" of 4 people. Go right ahead. Do it.

But if you want a bank, you'll need at least 10 people. You aren't being denied access to content any more than you're being denied access to content when the game makes you group up to complete a trial.

This. Harsh, but it gets the point across.

Small guilds typically don't even need guild bank/store anyways. They can very easily arrange to meet up and trade in person or use the mail system. One of the unofficial benefits of having a small guild of close friends and whatnot is that you know them, and are most likely in close contact with them.

By refusing to invite people in your guild that forfeits these features you gain in its stead close, tight knit, easy relations with the members you currently have. Whereas guild who have even 20+ members or higher probably don't have such a relationship. No, their members leave, have stuff to do or are simply too numerous to keep track of. It gets worse the higher it goes.

The guild bank is supposed to ease inter-guild trading amongst group of individuals who probably don't converse or have the ability to meet up otherwise. But even though that's the purpose, people use it for personal storage anyway. No need to increase that.
The guild store? Again, you can probably meet up if you desperately need an item. Odds are your meager guild won't have a decent span of goods to sell to be worthy of any public showing at a kiosk (even if you have the money).

Now, if you are so desperate to have these facilities in some shape or form to encourage trading/ease, then I suppose a mini-bank of less than 10 spaces should be enough for you guys.

Goldern wrote: »

We arnt seriously having this conversation are we?

For one this game is ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE, now wow nor any other game.. if they wanted it like WOW they would have called it world of warcraft.

These are the rules that govern the guilds. Generally End of Story. There is always some requirements for any guild system created whether its gold, members or whatever.

I guess you must be having a different conversation?
Nobody here, whether it be those that agree or those that disagree have mentioned WoW. I was however pleasantly surprised that nobody so far had made the usual 'childish' WoW comparison... until now !

jonpaul wrote: »

I just feel like everyone arguing or debating over what is wrong gets us nowhere. Rather someone propose some idea (and am in no way saying mine is a good one lol) that others can constructively criticize and improve on and then see if it is something that can be proposed and maybe be considered by the devs.
We obviously have many people here that have a wealth if knowledge about MMO's (much much more than I do) so why not use that as a way to help solve rather than just argue.

Give us solutions not problems. Agreed. A lot on here quick to criticise but rarely in a constructive way. Always no for the sake of argument most of the time. Quite like this thread so far TBH. Has potential

Like the idea of improving guild by acheivement though. When if we get buildings...expansions for alchemy and such would also be nice. By quest, gold or achievement is a good debate to have as always. A store of P&P armour on mannequins for various guild activities would also be nice along with an armoury for the smiths clothiers and woodworkers.

Which raises a point actually. Guilds are designed to work as groups. Does that include crafting ? Should guild be able to have blacksmiths etc be able to jointly work on guild gear ? That would make guilds much more useful as you dont need loads of alts and repetition of skills

Alphashado wrote: »

I'm sorry, but to me you sound like someone demanding access to to the kiddie rides just because you paid for general admission. Or the guy that brings 20 items to the 10 items or less line. Or the guy that drives in the car pool lane by himself. Or the guy trying to get a group discount on a date. Or the guy buying a steak and an energy drink with food stamps. Or the guy that makes the cashier dig for coupons.

nothing wrong with buying food with food stamps. God forbid poor people buy anything but generic cheese and market ground beef.

No, you are not allowed even a moment of pleasure, otherwise you are even more of an affront to the job creators.

Christ.

Probitas wrote: »

QFT, that's it? Where is your argumentative support, or refute of the other side? You can't just point to some guy, say 'what he said' and act like the statement is true. That's crazy.

Granted, it's over the top, but it gets attention and has started a conversation. Some of the debate may be full of hyperbole, straw men attacks and other illogic, but a discussion is started.

My problem is when someone chimes in to say nothing more than 'I agree' or 'I disagree', without offering any reason for it, even if it's just biased opinion. In some forums, that's akin to shameless bumping or spam, or taken too far, trolling and baiting.

Circuitous wrote: »

I'm not arguing whether requiring 10 players to open a guild bank is a good idea or not, for the record. I'm saying claiming that you don't have access to content by saying it's locked behind an arbitrary system element is a faulty argument.

Really, players cannot sell items to the player base at large unless in a guild of a certain membership level, and then only to other guild members, and if they are now lucky enough to win a bid for a 'Temporary' hawker, just to characters who walk past that NPC AND they have an item that players is buying in stock AND that players is carrying around their full gold limit to purchase said item (remember, you can store gold in the vault, but you can't get it out until you go to a town that has a bank, so please Z try to explain why you created two economic systems that now work to cross purposes?), until they lose a bid and lose that hawker, in effect creating a gold sink with potentially no upper maximum. This sounds really stupid when expressed the way it will work.

How is this an economy that all players can access? From my chair, this is not a working economy, it is a broken joke, designed solely to exclude for some reason that is not readily apparent, though I am sure Z knows why.

KariTR wrote: »

Phantax, in the context of the topic we are discussing, there are no restrictions other than those we impose on ourselves.

And how have Zen 'gone quiet'? That implies they have recently been discussing small guild issues with us and now they are no longer doing so. Can you post me the links of the discussion?

Or do you just mean that it is your opinion that Zen should respond to every single grievance or suggestion someone has?

If they want to keep players happy, and continue to see money flowing in, they had better be more proactive. I work for a Canadian ISP, and we most certainly do not sit on our laurels waiting for complaints, we go looking for any problems and try to address them.

That is what the term Customer Service means.

I have also since discovered that you can't SELL to guild hawkers, so the market is one sided favoring the seller....no wonder some people are vehemently opposed to a true open game market with proper competition and the market controls that evolve naturally in such situations. This is truly borken.

I can't find any historical info about it now, but i am pretty damn sure the 5 player limit for guild creation used to be significantly higher when wow launched. (like 20?) I just remember in the back of my mind it being a pain in the ass to form a guild. Wow has been consistently nerfing stuff for the carebear whiners who want everything on a silver platter.

I don't think there's anything wrong with guilds in ESO as a guild mechanism. But as a trade mechanism it's completely stupid and they need to remove that aspect from the guild system and add an AH. Let the guild system actually be for you know.... guilds. As it is now, nobody gives a [snip] about their guild members or their guild in general, which is a very bad precedent to start in the MMO world.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]