For the record, guilds under 10 are not functionally worthless. You get two important functions, a guild chat channel that is cross faction, and the ability to save travel time and cost with the travel to member feature.

Because of the way the inventory system is structured, giving a guild under 10 a bank doesn't work except to encourage abuse of the system. The solution wouldn't be to just open it up as is. The bank size would either need to be greatly reduced under 10 members, and/or upgradable at a cost of gold exponentially higher than what it is for the personal bank.

Because of how the economy works, you either sell in a larger guild, or you sell over chat. Whether this is the best system is a separate debate. But the fact is everyone is in the same boat. If I want to run a trial, I need 11 other people. And if I want to sell through guild traders I need to join or build a guild to 50 member. If you choose not to, fine, but that is a self imposed restriction. Internally a tight knit group really wouldn't need to sell to one another. (Again, we are discussion within the store system this game has, not what it should have.). Externally, there are a limited number of guild traders. A handful of crafters having to supply a store is going to waste your buyer's time if you aren't able to provide a wide selection.

The tabards are a newly introduced and cosmetic feature. Somehow all the guilds survived without one to this point. It is also resonable to assume that how it is will change over time. Let's see how it works as representation for guilds with the minimum presence in game for now and go from there.

Malpherian wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

While we're at it, I should be able to form a guild by myself, get the free 500-slot bank, a store where people just pay me money and a special set of armor, weapons and chat-macro that proclaims my beauty to all the corners of the world.

You want access to group content rewards? Group up.

You want access to guild rewards? Get a guild.

Honestly. Do you want a game, or do you want Matt Firor to cook you lunch and massage your feet?

You seem to be missing the point, as it is people with guilds who group together, complaining that they are lacking the features of such (as is entitled to guilds by definition).....

You're right. Let me fix that:

I should be able to form a guild with 4 people, and we all get a free bank, free gear, free pats on the back from Matt Firor and an all-expenses-paid vacation to the country of our choice. Because I pay to play this game, and I shouldn't have content kept from me by silly things like guilds, trials or dungeons.

driosketch wrote: »

For the record, guilds under 10 are not functionally worthless. You get two important functions, a guild chat channel that is cross faction, and the ability to save travel time and cost with the travel to member feature.

Because of the way the inventory system is structured, giving a guild under 10 a bank doesn't work except to encourage abuse of the system. The solution wouldn't be to just open it up as is. The bank size would either need to be greatly reduced under 10 members, and/or upgradable at a cost of gold exponentially higher than what it is for the personal bank.

Because of how the economy works, you either sell in a larger guild, or you sell over chat. Whether this is the best system is a separate debate. But the fact is everyone is in the same boat. If I want to run a trial, I need 11 other people. And if I want to sell through guild traders I need to join or build a guild to 50 member. If you choose not to, fine, but that is a self imposed restriction. Internally a tight knit group really wouldn't need to sell to one another. (Again, we are discussion within the store system this game has, not what it should have.). Externally, there are a limited number of guild traders. A handful of crafters having to supply a store is going to waste your buyer's time if you aren't able to provide a wide selection.

The tabards are a newly introduced and cosmetic feature. Somehow all the guilds survived without one to this point. It is also resonable to assume that how it is will change over time. Let's see how it works as representation for guilds with the minimum presence in game for now and go from there.

A pragmatic solution to the guild bank, is 10+ members get their space, free. and 1-9 member guilds can unlock bank space with gold. All guild banks should be expandable with gold, just as the personal bank. Let it come at a higher value and cost more, that's fine. But it would implement a feature that prevents 'abuse' as it is perceived. While also opening up access to people who have 'earned' it.

I don't personally care about the guild store. I suppose it's easy enough to join a trade guild, for the sole purpose of participating in the economy. But I can see the case for not wanting a restriction lockout for it.

As for the tabard, it seems strange to come out with a new exciting feature that you are hoping to give a player base, and make people happy. Then lock some of the player base out of having it as a readily available feature.

It's the little things that count, and they add up.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

This is, bar none, the most ridiculous "critique" of guilds I've read.

1. This is the first and last correct statement made.


2. There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. And if Mark Twain had lived today, he would have added "statistics on the internet" to the end of that list. You are making things up in order to support a non-existent point. You have no idea what percentage of guilds are PvE/PvP/trade/RP/anything.


3. There is no point, none whatsoever, in having a guild store with less than 50 people in your guild. With that few people, you won't be able to put in a winning bid on a public merchant, and you don't have enough people to use the regular store with any real frequency. There's a reason that trading guilds are larger.

Same with the bank. Why do you need a 500-slot bank for 6 people? What possible use is it to you other than to grant you a ton of extra storage for free? That's not what guilds are supposed to be about, and it's not what this game makes them about.

I can't think of a single MMO that allows groups of fewer than 10 players to even form a guild, let alone give them access to all the perks that can be enjoyed by larger groups of players. You've completely fabricated the idea that no other MMO places these restrictions on players. It's literally the opposite. This isn't a difference of opinion; you have just flat-out lied about the facts.


4. This doesn't affect the quality of life for anyone.

Every MMO ever encourages both solo and small group play in addition to play in larger groups. There isn't a single MMO I can think of where an entire guild will be playing the same thing at the same time. The point is to have a larger pool of people to group up with for quests/dungeons/trials/PvP/whatever-you-want. If you only have 3 other people in your guild, they all need to be on for you to form a full group. And again, no MMO currently on the market offers benefits to guilds of this size if they even allow them to exist.

Ultimately, your issue is completely misunderstanding the guild system. You are welcome to play only with friends and family. That is your prerogative. But expecting to have your group of 4-5 people an official guild title, tabard, store, bank, etc. is ludicrous. You're not a guild. You're a group. Or a family. Which is fine. But it isn't a guild by any game's definition.

Ok, I get it, you like it the way it is and don't want it to change.

BUT, you are VERY wrong about a number of issues.

The first obvious one is, in LOTRO you CAN create a guild using your alts and a couple friends. You make a guild, invite a friend, give them the ability to bring members in, and voila, you and your alts are in a guild. You get a guild hall, the chests there in, and the rest of what goes with guilds in that game after the guild has existed long enough. This is in a f2p game mind you, but that was there BEFORE it went f2p. I know, I was there and still have access because I have a LIFETIME sub. So on that point you are right off your nut. And it was AAA too. And you can form a guild of ONE in Age of Conan and that was right from the start when that was sub only. That's two games where you know squat.

The second one is you are basing your defense of the current system using the system as it's own defense, and that's not logical, that's bootstrap levitation. "Because the system won't work with less than 50 people you can't use the system with less than 50 people": well no DUH! That was the whole point of the OP. Please try to think more cleanly, this point you made was a mess.

The fact the OP doesn't know exact stats is likely true, but neither do you, so all that can be said is neither one of you know jack about stats for this games guild base and what that represents. Z knows, but they aren't talking.

Who cares about how much it costs to gain bank space? What does it matter when there is no financial cost for storage, only virtual game gold? What do YOU care as a player of the game whether someone can gain access to storage, if you yourself were ALSO able to access said storage in the same fashion, and what right do you have to tell other people how to form groups and associations? No other game does that either in point of fact.

I think the point is that without a lot of empty rhetoric and illogical statements, there is no defense of the current guild structure and economy in this game, it is counter productive to players who wish to form a social network or engage any meaningful economy that works for the player base AT LARGE, instead of a small subset, and I'm sure even those in large guilds would love to be able to sell to everyone without having to engage in bidding wars (just added by the way and we have no idea if that would even work, shame on you for using something just added to defend a structure that's been in place for months) for the very few placements in game, which is a very bad attempt to make the game realistic, when dealing with elves, trolls and dremora really makes a statement that it is NOT in fact real at all. The fact that it doesn't work well [EDIT: works well is very subjective in term, to some it's great, to others they can't ever sell anything or find anything to buy] with any size except large ones in the hundreds is only an indictment of it, not a vindication.

I'd really like to know how 'play the way you want to play' works when guilds are rigid structures.

QFT, that's it? Where is your argumentative support, or refute of the other side? You can't just point to some guy, say 'what he said' and act like the statement is true. That's crazy.

Malpherian wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

2. There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. And if Mark Twain had lived today, he would have added "statistics on the internet" to the end of that list. You are making things up in order to support a non-existent point. You have no idea what percentage of guilds are PvE/PvP/trade/RP/anything.

Actually I know exactly how many there are and what they do:

http://eso.guildex.org/

That list is not comprehensive for every guild in the game. I'm in several guilds that are not on that list and no I don't care because the list means nothing. Nerevarine's point stands. You're making up stats without having all the information.

Ayadori wrote: »

I am currently in 4 guilds because as an active crafter I need access to the market. That said I don't care at all about my guild mates. This is the first MMO in 12 years, that I confess such a thing. Being part of a guild should encourage socializing and grouping, not vice versa.

Now - If somebody comes and tells, that this is working as intended, then I am having a hard time believing.

No offence, but maybe this says something about your guilds and you rather than the game?

I've never played MMOs before and I'm a rather shy person. By shy I mean it can actually be hard for me to whisper a person for the first time because I'll be afraid to sound stupid or whatever, same with forum posts - I actually carefully think them all over again and again and then still wonder if people will think me stupid, or my opinion irrelevant or whatever.

I got some friends during the course of gameplay but up til like vet 10 I was in no guilds whatsoever. However - attention, confession of a shy person! - I'm in 3 big guilds(100-200+ people) and 2 small ones(16 each), one of which is actually my own. None of these are trading guilds because I don't care for trading much, and I care for each and every one of these guilds. I joined them because I liked the people and they liked me. None of them recruit in zonechat. Half of them have guildbanks open to everyone, with all the things lying in them. My own guild's bank has rare motifs and purple items in it - a lot of them. My own guild is just the friends I met in the game, but I'm also making new friends in my other guilds. I know I can share my opinions in there, have a fun chat and ask for help if needed. I think guilds are awesome.

Far as that OP's "discrimination about smaller guilds"...I don't want to offend you, and I of all people am for small groups/guilds, but this is ridiculous. This is like saying why dungeons/Trials aren't meant for soloing if you don't have a group and want to do them - since you paid same amount of money as those who do have a group and can do them. If you make a guild of 1 person, I think everyone can agree 500 free slots would be ridiculous. Honestly, I think same logic applies to 2, 3, etc. You can debate whether 10 is the right number or it should be 8 or 18, but you can't possibly argue there has to be that number which unlocks certain functions. If you want them, then make or join an actual GUILD. Socialize, find friends, look for people you like - pretty sure that's the point of whole guild system. Trust me, there's a lot of good people out there in the fields and forests of Tamriel^^ 10 really isn't that big of a number.
If you don't like that aspect, then forget about guild system. No one says you can't play with a very small group of friend/family, this is in fact awesome - but there's no reason you should be getting same benefits as guilds with 50+ members do.

...also, why do you even need guild store? Bank, okay, but store - to sell stuff to your friends or family?O.o I don't have it in my small guild, we just put stuff in bank for any of us to take and that's more than enough.

If it was up to me, I'd stop the whining by giving bank space to guilds at any number of members, but you start at 0 bank space and have to buy for double or triple the cost of a personal bank. I don't know why it isn't like that already, if you want something, work towards it.

Same for the store, you want X amount of space on your shelves, rent them. That would be a good use for the fees you pay for posting an item in the guild store.

Giving 500 free bank slots to a guild of 1 is just plain dumb and I would rather they up the minimum of members for bank slots to 25. It's to easy to create a random guild an pick up randoms along the way until you get 10 members, lock them out the bank and use 500 bank slots for yourself. Create 4 other guilds, rinse and repeat and here you are with 2500 bank slots for nothing.

And as a "paying customer" I don't except to have access to all freebies the games has to offer. It's an awful way of thinking our societies have these day. Because we pay we should have anything we want. Well it doesn't work like that!
Oh I wanna play Skyrim, I payed for the game so give me full power and one shot everything because I payed for it. Erm no, just give me full power and upgrades and take me to the final fight because I payed for the game and shouldn't have to cope with the challenge of acquiring upgrade and power ups. Oh yes, and @&£% the games mechanics because I'm a paying customer.

No, please no. The game lacks challenge and gold sinks already. Don't make it dumb easy. The challenge IS the game.

You can have 1520 bank+inventory slots on one account, but you have to work for it. Use them, but don't expect free bank slots by creating a fake guild only for the perks.

/rant over

Sorry

Phantax wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

While we're at it, I should be able to form a guild by myself, get the free 500-slot bank, a store where people just pay me money and a special set of armor, weapons and chat-macro that proclaims my beauty to all the corners of the world.

You want access to group content rewards? Group up.

You want access to guild rewards? Get a guild.

Honestly. Do you want a game, or do you want Matt Firor to cook you lunch and massage your feet?

No, he probably just reserves that for you !

The rest of us just want to be able to play the game the way we want and if that means people want to be able to form a guild with 1,2,3,4 or 5 people they should be allowed to !
Not be forced to group with 10 strangers just so that they can access certain guild functions ! If a small group of friends want their own guild or a family then they should be allowed to... end of !

And I have to, once again, ask why a group of 2, 3, 4, or 5 people need a 500-slot bank. Or why you can't use one of your other 4 guild slots for a larger guild if what you want is access to the large-guild features.

4 people isn't a guild. It's a friendly gathering. You don't need the infrastructure or special perks that guilds provide in order to keep a group of 4 people together. You do need those things in order to keep a group of 50-500 people organized.

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Create 4 other guilds

That won't happen. The game only allows you to make 1.

Fair point. I didn't know that. Well at least that's one abuse out of the way

Malpherian wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

small guilds will not be able to get big banks, create raiding parties, get high-ranking guild rewards, etc.

And exactly how does that comply with....

•Everybody having access to 100% of game contents ?

Because the only way small guilds can get that is by not .....

•Play the Game the way You want !

So according to you it's ok for people not to get all the games content unless that are forced to do something they do not want ?

"Join a big guild or go without" yeah that's really fair !

you also don't get vr12 out of coldharbour, or emperor.

But you can work for those as an individual player, on your own. You can't work for a guild tabard, or a guild bank or a guild store "On your own" for that you need to rely on 10 other people who may never want to join your guild.

So yea, it is Join a large guild, recruit people you don;t want, or do without the content.

A choice is only a choice if you have the ability to chose. There is no "Choice" with the current guild system.

You are either:

A. Forced to recruit x amount of people in order to get access to basic content.

Or

B. Don't get access to said content.

~There is no C = Choice:

I want to play by myself (or with friends and family) and earn said content.

This would give you choice and an option, to play small and still be able to attain everything, or go large and still be able to attain everything.

THAT is choice.

what is your point. it's an mmo. to get trials gear you also have to do things with other players. This is not an unusual feature.

Phantax wrote: »

At the end of the day Zenimax promised people 100% access to all game features AND the ability to play the game the way they want to !
They have gone back on those promises by putting restrictions on what people can do, and that is irrefutable !

You have access to the feature, and you actively choose not to do what it takes to make use of it. That is no one's fault but your own.

I'm not arguing whether requiring 10 players to open a guild bank is a good idea or not, for the record. I'm saying claiming that you don't have access to content by saying it's locked behind an arbitrary system element is a faulty argument.

Phantax, in the context of the topic we are discussing, there are no restrictions other than those we impose on ourselves.

And how have Zen 'gone quiet'? That implies they have recently been discussing small guild issues with us and now they are no longer doing so. Can you post me the links of the discussion?

Or do you just mean that it is your opinion that Zen should respond to every single grievance or suggestion someone has?

If you want a small guild, you can have a small guild. If you want a bank, you need a slightly-larger-but-still-actually-very-small guild. One's decision not to have more members doesn't change the fact that the option is available.

I'd be fine with the bank being available at two members, for all it matters to me. But stop saying you don't have access to something just because you choose not to fulfill the requirements.

The simple fact is Zenimax made two statements -

A - Play the Game the Way You Want
B - Everybody should have access to 100% of the games content

Hell, I think they are both admirable comments and applaud Zenimax for them.
BUT...

The people who want a small/personal guild cannot get B if they do A !
In fact the only way for them to get B is if they ignore A and follow the restrictions set out by Zenimax concerning guilds !

At the end of the day in regards to guild functionality they cancel out each other !

I didn't make the two statements in the first place and I wasn't the one who applied the restrictions on guild functionality. If people would concentrate less on berating me and try to understand what the OP is about they would see the hypocrisy !